Basic [BS] NSP/Mag
+/-40% condi food to 20%, because..
For me, it is not much in the sake of “damage balance”, but in the sake of “actual mechanism of the game”…
A food giving a bonus to something precise (eg: frost) should give a greater advantage than a food giving a bonus to a lot of aptitudes (eg: condition duration).
So if a food give + 15% to a given condition, a food that would boost all conditions should be somewhat 10%… or else, if the food for all condi duration stays at 40, the one that gives a bonus to a given condi should be 50%, and direct damage food shall be adapted accordingly.
If a stat really needs an advantage gamewide, it should be adapted through either player stats or through skills – not by a food that gives a greater advantage than comparable foods.
there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.
And it should be 40%.
40% wouldnt even do anything on a lot of conditions. Conditions dont get an extra tick unless they hit a full second.
This rounding off is a big problem with condition duration as a lot of it is often wasted as you fail to get that sweet spot of exactly 1 round second on all your conditions.
Thats the main difference between condition duration and crit damage. Crit damage, even a single percent, will have a positive effect. But 10% condition duration is useless on every condition that doesnt last 10seconds natively, which is most. Additionally, extra duration on conditions doesnt always mean more damage.
Extending a burn from 10seconds to 12seconds is pointless when that burn gets cleansed at 8seconds. Unlike critical damage, which applies its benefit immediatly and with certainty.
Which is why condition duration is valued lower in the stat budget, meaning an item/sigil/buff can contain more of it. As a trade-off, its hardcapped at 100%.
(edited by Terrahero.9358)
I was running around WvW this evening an scanning the food people were using.
90% of the time it was either + Condition duration or – Condition duration food.
Our commanders were even donating – Condition duration feasts for the zerg to use. I even saw a Necro boasting – 40% Condition duration food.
The fact that this food is so widely used just shows what an abysmal state conditions are in. I observed a Thief dealing 8000 condition damage with a singe Sneak Attack today. That’s more damage than most Backstabs and that’s coming from a ranged attack that is easily applied with little/no threat to oneself.
Something needs to happen and happen fast. Lemongrass Poultry Soup is already at 28S for a 30 minute food.
I was running around WvW this evening an scanning the food people were using.
90% of the time it was either + Condition duration or – Condition duration food.
Our commanders were even donating – Condition duration feasts for the zerg to use. I even saw a Necro boasting – 40% Condition duration food.
The fact that this food is so widely used just shows what an abysmal state conditions are in. I observed a Thief dealing 8000 condition damage with a singe Sneak Attack today. That’s more damage than most Backstabs and that’s coming from a ranged attack that is easily applied with little/no threat to oneself.
Something needs to happen and happen fast. Lemongrass Poultry Soup is already at 28S for a 30 minute food.
That isn’t really the best food for commanders/zergs. Your group should have more than enough cleansing to deal with conditions. Something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loaf_of_Saffron_Bread would be better in this cc heavy zerg meta.
P/D thieves are only doing a few conditions. You should be able to wipe them pretty easily once they build up. P/D is especially bad since the pistol auto attack brings the large bleed stack to the front of the pile (allowing you to remove it far more easily).
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
Another way to look at it is that the majority of your performance should be based on your class and trait selection, not the consumables.
The +/- 40% food violates that with a rusty crowbar.
Another way to look at it is that the majority of your performance should be based on your class and trait selection, not the consumables.
The +/- 40% food violates that with a rusty crowbar.
And honestly this whole mess stems from a far deeper underlying problem that isnt the 40% foodbuff.
Conditions are poorly designed, and arenanet got this feedback in spades back when this game was still in beta.
Conditions, mechanically, from the very get-go, are designed like kitten.
Its why condition-on-crit traits are there to get condition builds to invest into precision, it works but why isnt there a more native reason to invest in other stats?
Why is condition duration so oddly available. Its on runes and sigils, foodbuffs, but not on armor or trinkets… but, then it is on weapons… just not the ascended weapons… wut?
And conditions only scale with duration if they hit the full second. Condition duration has got to be the only stat that has points where it does nothing, and you have to hit special sweet spots for it to be a good stat. And then its also, as far as i know, the only thing thats actually getting capped.
What about how conditions stack on a target? Or how all conditions are thrown on the same heap, wether they are purely damaging or debuffing/utility?
Its also the only kind of damage that can be removed after it has landed, but cannot be geared against defensive wise. Speaking of removal, goodluck balancing condition damage when you’re working between the two extremes of “it runs full duration” or “lol instant cleanse”.
That takes some mighty wild assumptions and guess work.
We can sit here and nitpick at every little individual problem with conditions, but the truth is that untill conditions are completely overhauled as a mechanic (as if…) someone is always going to get the short end of some stick.
(edited by Terrahero.9358)
there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.
And it should be 40%.
50% seems good, as it’s the current max you can get in spvp.
Fine with me as long as crit damage is also capped at 50%. Deal? I thought not…
From what I’ve seen of GW2 players is that those that do most of the complaining are those that go berserker with no cleanse, no utility—all damage OMG DAMAGE. nd the complain when they get beat by someone that uses their head and plays better. If you, as a berserker, gets beat, it MUST be the +/- food lol.
Paulie, I’m a Condition Mesmer.
Yet I agree all the same, the +/- duration foods need to go down to 10% each (same as all the other foods, equivalent to 10 points in a trait line).
Too much hinges on that food. My entire PvP setup is based around Pizzas. How is that useful as a balance point? how is that interesting, in the light of ~600 cooking recipes?
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I play a variety of power and condition builds; the +/- 40% food skews the hell out of small team game play and you tend to only see any move away from it in tank zergs where spam cleansing has reached such a critical mass that it makes conditions nigh irrelevant.
im pretty fine with +10% but only when you will remove the – % condi food from the game.
im pretty fine with +10% but only when you will remove the – % condi food from the game.
Not remove, reduce to the same -10%. Obviously.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Not remove, reduce to the same -10%. Obviously.
-10% is much much better than +10% when its comes to conditions.Obviously.
I am curious what Condition build does everyone think is the most “OP”. For me, its not Necromancer as though they have high burst they have next to no defense. For me it has to be Engineer, They can have Perma burning, Poison and have insane access to Confusion. They have plenty of defense as well as offense and great healing potential and the ability to easily escape a fight should things head south (unlike Necro)
there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.
And it should be 40%.
50% seems good, as it’s the current max you can get in spvp.
Fine with me as long as crit damage is also capped at 50%. Deal? I thought not…
It is actually. Crit-Damage starts at 50% base-line and can then scale up to somewhere around 120% currently.
After Ferocity it will probably cap close to 100%, which would make it the 50% increase you proposed.
Again, I’ve explained this quite clearly, Condition Duration Food isn’t whats powerful in 1v1 fights.
I could run no food and kill you every single time even if you had 100% condition duration but only 2 or 3 Conditions that you could apply.
Condition Overflow is what makes Condition Classes scary in small man fights.
Take Ranger’s BM Bunker, Before they nerfed the pets a while back, Pretty much every single BM Bunker went Cats or in some cases Dogs.. No one picks up intimidation training at all.. After they nerfed the cats a lot of Rangers lost a large amount of damage because of this.
I ended up changing the build over to 10/0/30/0/30 spec and using Spiders with intimidation training? Why? I already have a crap ton of cripple… vulner is pretty awful in general….Why would that spec increase my damage so much? Because I was adding 2 more conditions that just covered my damaging ones up, Cripple/Vulnerability… it doesn’t matter if they do no damage, They keep the damaging ones from being removed. So My ranger starts eating people alive again (Immobilize also plays a part)
Now look at Necros, They weren’t scary up until last year when they gave them Burning and Torment…Those conditions cover their other conditions, and make them incredibly hard to deal with..Signet of Spite, again.. its a low damage signet, It however applies a crap ton of conditions.
Its not Condition Duration that’s causing the trouble..Its the amount of Conditions you can apply on some classes at once that is.
Armageddon mentions Engineer cause of Confusion/Poison/Perma Burning, I’d much rather fight a engineer (which I usually beat in a 1v1 fight on my ranger) any day of the week vs a Necromancer…simply because the Engineer while having more potential damaging conditions doesn’t put out as many conditions as a Necromancer does.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Xsorus – Ranger PvP movies Creator of the BM Bunker
Xsorus – Ranger PvP movies Creator of the BM Bunker
Armageddon mentions Engineer cause of Confusion/Poison/Perma Burning, I’d much rather fight a engineer (which I usually beat in a 1v1 fight on my ranger) any day of the week vs a Necromancer…simply because the Engineer while having more potential damaging conditions doesn’t put out as many conditions as a Necromancer does.
I would rather fight a Necro, other than Signet of Spite they arent really that amazing. They have low/poor defensive options You mention Torment, its AWFUL on Necromancer and on a HUGE cooldown as well..
An Engineer can easily burst you with conditions and have the defenses and healing to counter your abilities they can also reset fights where as the Necro is either win or die. They can burst you with A LOT of Confusion can have Perma Burning and Perma Poison as well as insane (compared to necro) combat mobility
They also bring plenty of knockbacks/interrupts as well depending on the condition build.
that being said, any decent player playing condi build already has the upper hand seeing it is out of control how easy it is to inflict conditions compared to removing them…
I think the questions which is harder to fight condi necro or condi engie depends on the profession you are playing. As warrior i would rather fight a condi necro than an condi engie. As engie i would rather fight a other engie than a condi necro.
But back to the topic the condi durations is only a problem if short hard hitting conditions are applied. For other conditions it is normally not a problem as the condi removel in this game can be quite strong (through for some professions it may be too weak/strong).
The food problem is just a symptom of the greater issue, the poorly planned out and balanced stat system as well as the laughable condition system. The food was 40% because there wasn’t really another source of condition duration and conditions are countered by cleanse, obviously the longer the duration the larger the chance that it gets cleansed where a 40% power build increase can’t be countered nearly as easily. However that just leads us to the bigger problem.
The major problem with conditions at the moment is they are too available for all classes. This means that you can get 4-5 damaging conditions ticking on you and it becomes a burst instead of what conditions are supposed to do, which is attrition. If we make it so classes only have access to 2 damaging conditions then the burst problem isn’t nearly as bad. Of course now we are left with a ton of cleanses in the game and 2 conditions simply isn’t enough since entire stacks will be cleared quickly. That means cleanses need either reduced in effectiveness(only 2-3 stacks per cleanse) or specified(only cleanses bleeding or burning). If we reduce the effectiveness then we also need to reduce the number of stacks that can be applied since some can reach 25 stacks in seconds and 4k-5k damage per second is a bit much. Finally we would need some equality amongst all the conditions, Normalize the damage between all damaging conditions, let them all stack, and make sure they have secondary effects. Make poison 5% healing reduction per stack, burning removes 1 boon every 3 seconds, etc.
TLDR: The food is OP now, but the overall system is broken and needs an overhaul.
-10% is much much better than +10% when its comes to conditions.Obviously.
Hrm… fair enough. -8% then.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Again, I’ve explained this quite clearly, Condition Duration Food isn’t whats powerful in 1v1 fights.
I could run no food and kill you every single time even if you had 100% condition duration but only 2 or 3 Conditions that you could apply.
Condition Overflow is what makes Condition Classes scary in small man fights.
I think this is true, however the additional condition duration from the food exacerbates this quite significantly. It’s one thing to acquire a large number of conditions, and it’s another thing to acquire the same amount of conditions all at +40% of their durations.
Thus the food may not be the complete problem, but I still think it’s an angle that needs to be addressed. I mean, look at the other stats that could possibly be provided. Would you rather use a food that has +100 condition damage, or +40% condition duration? Anyone with some experience will know that it’s not even a contest.
Lowering the 40% to something like 20% would at least help make other food choices a bit more attractive in comparison, in addition to making condi bombs less powerful. This only really applies in WvW of course, altering the food won’t do anything in sPvP.
-10% is much much better than +10% when its comes to conditions.Obviously.
Hrm… fair enough. -8% then.
10% condition duration would equal the crit-damage food which is also at 10%.
But critical damage is far and beyond more powerful then condition duration, which is exactly why condition duration is a much cheaper stat.
I don’t see a problem with condi duration.
Condi duration has never been an issue in my eyes, it’s more the speed of application.
Just to put this in perspective being able to load lot’s of condition in a short amount of time is not a great Idea. It makes it impossible to counter.
Having something being applied gradually is ok. This means that actually if I have applied lots of conditions to you there is a ramp up time. If I applied a 1 minute bleed that’s not an issue, the issue becomes if I apply 25 stacks of bleed instantly that lasts 10 seconds.
Honestly condis are a grey area, if you don’t have the duration they aren’t a long term threat, if they are applied too slowly then people cleanse them before they become an issue. there is a sweet spot, but it will take a while to find
So all in all it would require a whole rebalance in the game to change the food.
-snip-
You are right of course. There is a larger issue with conditions as in adding more, boosts the effectiveness of already existing conditions.
But all that doesn’t change the fact that by any standard applied within the game, both +/-40% Condition duration are far, far too powerful. They just don’t make sense.
Food should matter obviously, but it shouldn’t matter THAT much.
Remember when Omnomberry Pie had no cooldown and Warriors could use it to heal something like 500 HP/sec? Yeah, that was nerfed too, with good reason.
(edited by Dee Jay.2460)
Honestly they should both be +/-10%.
The best tier food gives +100 and +70 in its major and minor stats. Based off of how traitlines work we can see they chose to value +10 stats as equal to +1% condition duration.. so why exactly they felt the need to say on food “Nope, we wont follow that pattern, we’ll make the foods x4 stronger.. That surely wont change anything!” remains a mystery.
I dont see the need for a cap though if the food is lowered.. because stacking it to insane levels would not be nearly as easy as it is now.
THIS!
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be…. oh my kitten god.
… I still want tengu.
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be….
Actually this couldn’t be farther from the truth. You might want to actually check a fact occasionally. The numerical value of most skills damage shows that condition builds require 50% duration increase to actually keep up with the total damage of direct damage builds. If you wish to test this, make a condition build for every profession in dire gear. Then I will make one for you in soldiers gear. The DPS in 94% of the comparisons will show you that the direct damage soldiers builds will out damage the condition dire build. These comparisons have already been calculated and posted on previous threads. If your going to claim otherwise, you should show something to support it, Because the other side of the argument has already displayed facts disputing your claims, it is hard to take you seriously.
To nerf the food, they will have to buff the duration of condition duration runes to compensate. Play tests show that each professions does significantly more damage in soldiers gear then in dire gear. Condition damage builds need 50% minimum to try to equalize the damage.
The funny thing is, generally condition builds don’t touch power builds damage, yet because conditions feel annoying, it bends your perception away from the actual numeric facts.
A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
(edited by coglin.1867)
Honestly they should both be +/-10%.
The best tier food gives +100 and +70 in its major and minor stats. Based off of how traitlines work we can see they chose to value +10 stats as equal to +1% condition duration.. so why exactly they felt the need to say on food “Nope, we wont follow that pattern, we’ll make the foods x4 stronger.. That surely wont change anything!” remains a mystery.
I dont see the need for a cap though if the food is lowered.. because stacking it to insane levels would not be nearly as easy as it is now.
THIS!
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be…. oh my kitten god.
No it’s not 4 times stronger… because of the way damage conditions work (tick only at the second or you get nothing) among other things which have already been explained at length in this thread.
People love overstating things to try to get their way : /
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
The condition scaling per tick is a separate issue. Granted; it is exacerbated by the 40% foods, which are actually barring any further rework on the condition system from being done due to how badly those foods paper over the flaws of the system. Either the general duration foods need the hammer or the specific duration duration foods need an immense boost; and the second option just makes the current situation worse.
The condition scaling per tick is a separate issue. Granted; it is exacerbated by the 40% foods, which are actually barring any further rework on the condition system from being done due to how badly those foods paper over the flaws of the system. Either the general duration foods need the hammer or the specific duration duration foods need an immense boost; and the second option just makes the current situation worse.
You may well see this very soon though, but not with foods. They said they would be adding the +20%‘s to the 4/6 slots of some rune sets so that people aren’t using 3 different sets. That means a possible +60% duration for some stuff… in the livestream they only specifically mention boons, but I would wager that it’ll be for condition duration sets as well.
I agree there are some flaws in the current system, but str8 up nerfing the +40% food without any adjustments in the system is certainly not the way to go.
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
But critical damage is far and beyond more powerful then condition duration, which is exactly why condition duration is a much cheaper stat.
It is in total damage output, but that’s not a food-balance issue. It shouldn’t affect the balance of food whether conditions vs crits are imbalanced at a different point down the line.
For a condition build, the +duration is key. It’s what makes my WvW build from “mildly tickling” into “Rage on the forums”. It’s all in that food. Without the extra duration I have no oompf.
And that’s just wrong. My build should be about my abilities, my traits, maybe even my runes. Not my food. But currently the food is the fightmaker.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Honestly they should both be +/-10%.
The best tier food gives +100 and +70 in its major and minor stats. Based off of how traitlines work we can see they chose to value +10 stats as equal to +1% condition duration.. so why exactly they felt the need to say on food “Nope, we wont follow that pattern, we’ll make the foods x4 stronger.. That surely wont change anything!” remains a mystery.
I dont see the need for a cap though if the food is lowered.. because stacking it to insane levels would not be nearly as easy as it is now.
THIS!
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be…. oh my kitten god.
No it’s not 4 times stronger… because of the way damage conditions work (tick only at the second or you get nothing) among other things which have already been explained at length in this thread.
People love overstating things to try to get their way : /
So your trying to say this food is not completely broken?
You must be a warrior…
… I still want tengu.
Honestly they should both be +/-10%.
The best tier food gives +100 and +70 in its major and minor stats. Based off of how traitlines work we can see they chose to value +10 stats as equal to +1% condition duration.. so why exactly they felt the need to say on food “Nope, we wont follow that pattern, we’ll make the foods x4 stronger.. That surely wont change anything!” remains a mystery.
I dont see the need for a cap though if the food is lowered.. because stacking it to insane levels would not be nearly as easy as it is now.
THIS!
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be…. oh my kitten god.
No it’s not 4 times stronger… because of the way damage conditions work (tick only at the second or you get nothing) among other things which have already been explained at length in this thread.
People love overstating things to try to get their way : /
So your trying to say this food is not completely broken?
You must be a warrior…
Yes I am saying +40% isn’t broken.
My sig shows all the classes I play regularly. Tried war, but it bored the living kitten out of me. Several of them are relatively weak against conditions though…
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
WvW is WvW, and the devs have made it clear that they’ll only seldom balance WvW based on changes that would impact their ‘vision’ of WvW as ‘large scale PvP’. Hence confusion was hit when glamours (and not confusion shatter) were popular, retaliation was hit because of Guardian stacking, etc. etc. This is the way you phrase problems with WvW if you want to be heard.
Ironically I’ve found that the +40% food is strong on condi classes but even stronger (or at least more bizarre to play against) on things it doesn’t appear to be intended for, such as the immobilize on Mesmer/Thief sword.
I can agree that consumables shouldn’t have more impact than a trait line.
there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.
And it should be 40%.
Or let it stay at 100%, but make it harder to get to that amount.