Condition Damage needs to be Toned down

Condition Damage needs to be Toned down

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Posted by: Sylli.3891

Sylli.3891

The problem with condi damage seeming so strong is the players. Either they’re running condi duration food and you’re not, you have extremely low vitality because you and everyone else thinks you only need toughness, or you aren’t running good condi cleanse. Then you come on the forums and cry about how condi is kittenting on you.

ye i am playing a guardian and i got full condition remove say hey to 4 spem condition ea sec i kittening remove that much ea sec. the problem it that guard dont get more the 20 k hp and its 1 of the lowest healing pool

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Posted by: Hammerguard.9834

Hammerguard.9834

Oh, you wanted condi damage to do nothing to you? That makes sense. We have to be able to remove 100% condi damage or it’s broken.

Plz fiks, AyNet.

… I still want tengu.

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Posted by: bloodletting wolf.2837

bloodletting wolf.2837

The problem with condi damage seeming so strong is the players. Either they’re running condi duration food and you’re not, you have extremely low vitality because you and everyone else thinks you only need toughness, or you aren’t running good condi cleanse. Then you come on the forums and cry about how condi is kittenting on you.

You forgot the part where they just stand in your red circles for reasons I haven’t quite figured out yet. I can’t tell you how many times I have been defending and start pegging a group with grenades and they stand there until after one of them dies. What makes it worse is I rarely get focused and cut down by these players. Oh well free bags.

Kaa Mchorror NSP grenadier [hayt]

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

Oh, you wanted condi damage to do nothing to you? That makes sense. We have to be able to remove 100% condi damage or it’s broken.

Plz fiks, AyNet.

You my friend have the most reasonable,simple and real comment here. Give this man a cookie.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

Why not improve conditions especially in pve? A lot and I mean a lot of people roam or zerg with poor to none cleansing and have the idea :“My pure damage will kill you before your conditions kill me.” Please don’t complain if you’re are that type of quick killer.
Conditions builds existed,exist and will continue to exist even if they are only a few of us left.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: KiteoHatto.7018

KiteoHatto.7018

This zerker meta, seriously. People have this idea that somehow wearing zerk gear gives you a “mlgpro” title that they can flail about as if anybody cares about their kitten. They follow it like sheep and as soon as they die to something they cry op, cause clearly, its not their fault.
Zerk gives you instant damage but you sacrifice survivability.
Bunker gives you survivability but you lose a ton of dps.
Conditions give you extra survivability but you lose instant damage.

To me it sounds like a fair trade off.

Nerf paper. Scissors are in a good place.

-Rock.

(edited by KiteoHatto.7018)

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Posted by: DeadNote.1830

DeadNote.1830

It should be harder to aply conditions on enmy. Look at GW1 there it was much better. If there was bleeding on you, you get hp-degeneration of 6 hp/s. In GW2 it should be 200 hp/s. The conditiondmg-stat should be completly removed from this game and they should get the GW1 system back. Look in the GW1 wiki. Then you understand what i mean. In GW2 it’s to easy to spamm your conditions.

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Posted by: Solori.6025

Solori.6025

The problem with condi damage seeming so strong is the players. Either they’re running condi duration food and you’re not, you have extremely low vitality because you and everyone else thinks you only need toughness, or you aren’t running good condi cleanse. Then you come on the forums and cry about how condi is kittenting on you.

ye i am playing a guardian and i got full condition remove say hey to 4 spem condition ea sec i kittening remove that much ea sec. the problem it that guard dont get more the 20 k hp and its 1 of the lowest healing pool

If you are dying to conditions as a guardian you are doing something wrong.

I say this from a Zerker Guardians perspective.

You dont need to blow your condi cleanse on 2 stacks of bleeding, get runes of the hoelbrak, dont sit in red AoE’s, use blinds effectively.


The world needs more KUNG FURY!
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Posted by: Brando.1374

Brando.1374

The problem with condi damage seeming so strong is the players. Either they’re running condi duration food and you’re not, you have extremely low vitality because you and everyone else thinks you only need toughness, or you aren’t running good condi cleanse. Then you come on the forums and cry about how condi is kittenting on you.

ye i am playing a guardian and i got full condition remove say hey to 4 spem condition ea sec i kittening remove that much ea sec. the problem it that guard dont get more the 20 k hp and its 1 of the lowest healing pool

If you are dying to conditions as a guardian you are doing something wrong.

I say this from a Zerker Guardians perspective.

You dont need to blow your condi cleanse on 2 stacks of bleeding, get runes of the hoelbrak, dont sit in red AoE’s, use blinds effectively.

sadly most people who complain about conditions like to faceroll and dont want to play smart.

Good advice but your going to be talking to deaf ears.

Xxkakarot [GF] Good Fights
Dark Wizard Incar [GF] Good Fights
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot

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Posted by: BlackDevil.9268

BlackDevil.9268

Ow look, its this again.

If Conditions are so “brokenly OP”, why does everyone consider Conditions worthless in PvE? Worthless in WvW zergs? And even roaming in WvW is dominated by power builds, not conditions.
And yes, even in sPvP as we clearly saw very recently in the ToL, Conditions builds are quite unpopular in higher tiers of skill.
Even tough people like you have been spouting their anti-condition dogma for months prior to the ToL, yet it clearly shows it that those who “learned to play” deal with conditions so well, hardly anyone bothers running it.

All you present here is anecdotal “evidence”, and a bunch of buzz words and self-declared facts that are actually not true at all. Basicly you sit here, wave a pretty screenshot in our face, feed us a bunch of lies and deceit, and expect everyone to keel over and join your “Lets Destroy Condition Builds”-movement.

Goodluck with that endeavor. Simple fact is, Power builds rule this game and have done so since the day of launch.

I would have to disagree with this.

If conditions weren’t so broken, then why does everyone in WvW run either -40% condi duration, often with melandru runes, or +40% condi food?
Condition builds are far more superior in 1v1’s and small fights. They are just often used because of lack of mobility. You want mobility as roamer, which usually goes along with power builds, though that does not mean condition aren’t as strong as power builds. Any condition spec of any roaming profession would win a 1v1 against the power version of its class.
In pve they are considered underpowered because monsters aren’t build around armor. Most are just 1 shot kill mobs with super low armor. Give them some propper armor like with the wurm and you’ll see groups forming with condition specs only.
There are more than enough condition specs such as with engineer, warrior and necromancer that dominate in soloq. At higher tier tournaments conditions are mostly a side-thing, but not to be left away. Look at warrior. Specs for power, about 1/4th of its damage comes from conditions. Burst is just a much better option for tpvp because you need to have good burst to cap kitten. Conditions are too slow to kill with so people run back to keep the point contested. Again, most of these builds have low mobility. You need good mobility to win the game.

It’s kittened conditions like burning, bleeding and torment are so popular in this game. Conditions should be a side-thing like weakness. Something you would apply for a short moment on the right timing. Not something you would spam all over to kill people while facetanking their damage.

(edited by BlackDevil.9268)

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Posted by: Brando.1374

Brando.1374

Ow look, its this again.

If Conditions are so “brokenly OP”, why does everyone consider Conditions worthless in PvE? Worthless in WvW zergs? And even roaming in WvW is dominated by power builds, not conditions.
And yes, even in sPvP as we clearly saw very recently in the ToL, Conditions builds are quite unpopular in higher tiers of skill.
Even tough people like you have been spouting their anti-condition dogma for months prior to the ToL, yet it clearly shows it that those who “learned to play” deal with conditions so well, hardly anyone bothers running it.

All you present here is anecdotal “evidence”, and a bunch of buzz words and self-declared facts that are actually not true at all. Basicly you sit here, wave a pretty screenshot in our face, feed us a bunch of lies and deceit, and expect everyone to keel over and join your “Lets Destroy Condition Builds”-movement.

Goodluck with that endeavor. Simple fact is, Power builds rule this game and have done so since the day of launch.

I would have to disagree with this.

If conditions weren’t so broken, then why does everyone in WvW run either -40% condi duration, often with melandru runes, or +40% condi food?
Condition builds are far more superior in 1v1’s and small fights. They are just often used because of lack of mobility. You want mobility as roamer, which usually goes along with power builds, though that does not mean condition aren’t as strong as power builds. Any condition spec of any roaming profession would win a 1v1 against the power version of its class.
In pve they are considered underpowered because monsters aren’t build around armor. Most are just 1 shot kill mobs with super low armor. Give them some propper armor like with the wurm and you’ll see groups forming with condition specs only.
There are more than enough condition specs such as with engineer, warrior and necromancer that dominate in soloq. At higher tier tournaments conditions are mostly a side-thing, but not to be left away. Look at warrior. Specs for power, about 1/4th of its damage comes from conditions. Burst is just a much better option for tpvp because you need to have good burst to cap kitten. Conditions are too slow to kill with so people run back to keep the point contested. Again, most of these builds have low mobility. You need good mobility to win the game.

It’s kittened conditions like burning, bleeding and torment are so popular in this game. Conditions should be a side-thing like weakness. Something you would apply for a short moment on the right timing. Not something you would spam all over to kill people while facetanking their damage.

actually they run -% duration food/runes for status affecting conditions (immo, cripple, chill) Also because they wont have to worry about active condi clear and go more offensive in their traits/utilites.

Xxkakarot [GF] Good Fights
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Posted by: Lucentfir.7430

Lucentfir.7430

This zerker meta, seriously. People have this idea that somehow wearing zerk gear gives you a “mlgpro” title that they can flail about as if anybody cares about their kitten. They follow it like sheep and as soon as they die to something they cry op, cause clearly, its not their fault.
Zerk gives you instant damage but you sacrifice survivability.
Bunker gives you survivability but you lose a ton of dps.
Conditions give you extra survivability but you lose instant damage.

To me it sounds like a fair trade off.

Nerf paper. Scissors are in a good place.

-Rock.

Playing Zerkers normally means you’re a ton more squisher and MUCH less forgiven for mistakes. So you’re both prone to direct damage and condition damage. In sense you have to skillfully dodge, and use whatever your class has at disposal to mitigate incoming damage in a very active play style.

Playing Condition builds….Instant damage? Conditions do initial damage before applying a conditions. I think you mean spiking damage, in which case conditions aren’t meant to spike someone down too zero. So yeah they trade off spiking someone to live better and have damage that’s still pretty good. They do get close to spikeing you however when you have poison, burning, bleeds, and confusion ticking on you. It’s much more consistent than trying to continuously close a gap and striking air. In which case all you need to worry about is applying your conditions since conditions builds can withstand some punishment with the passive defensive stats.

Now comparing the two, Direct Damage is just one source of damage, that can be mitigated by armor, protection, health, weakness. Now the condition side, the only true things that will soften up or eliminate the damage entirely are condi reduction duration, and condition removal. TBH Conditions aren’t that OP, there are just some builds that make it pretty OP in small fights and skirmishes.

Reth Grimrazor – Charr Guardian – [GWB]Grim Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Lerious Warhowl – Charr Warrior – [SHD] Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: bigmonto.4215

bigmonto.4215

actually they run -% duration food/runes for status affecting conditions (immo, cripple, chill) Also because they wont have to worry about active condi clear and go more offensive in their traits/utilites.

Actually they run -% duration food/runes to counter all conditions, especially the +% duration condition foods. And yes they still do worry about active condi clear. Do you see any warrior without CI or Zerker stands or both? Even these are not enough.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

actually they run -% duration food/runes for status affecting conditions (immo, cripple, chill) Also because they wont have to worry about active condi clear and go more offensive in their traits/utilites.

Actually they run -% duration food/runes to counter all conditions, especially the +% duration condition foods. And yes they still do worry about active condi clear. Do you see any warrior without CI or Zerker stands or both? Even these are not enough.

In zergs, Warriors actually will frequently run neither, opting instead for shout-based specs as they provide better group power. In duels, For Great Justice isn’t great, but it provides perma 15 stacks of might in a zerg and serves as AoE healing when traited. “Shake it Off” is the shortest cooldown stunbreak in the entire game and serves as AoE condition clear and healing. Runes that gets uesed are Melandru runes which reduce stun duration as well. You know, what the entire hammertrain is devoted to?

Given the Eles dropping Cleansing Rain and the Guardians running Pure of Voice, conditions are very rarely an issue in zergs, even without accounting for food.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

If conditions weren’t so broken, then why does everyone in WvW run either -40% condi duration, often with melandru runes, or +40% condi food?

Well for one, everyone doesn’t run that. You are sorely mistaken to assume the small circle of players you know, represent the rest of the millions that own this game. In my experience on T1 servers most players do not run this at all.

The game is not balanced around 1v1 and with a group, the condition removal available negates them to a large extent. The larger the group, the more conditions are negated.

You apear to be out of touch with what I am understanding is run, based on the conversations I have with those that follow me when I am commanding.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Put something in the game that reduces all direct damage and non condition CC by 40% and see which of the two foods people prefer.

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Posted by: Kukchi.6173

Kukchi.6173

Burst condition is stupid.

Human thief lvl 80 pistol dagger pistol sword cheese extreme.
Anet fix thief plz its boring now :(

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Now comparing the two, Direct Damage is just one source of damage, that can be mitigated by armor, protection, health, weakness. Now the condition side, the only true things that will soften up or eliminate the damage entirely are condi reduction duration, and condition removal. TBH Conditions aren’t that OP, there are just some builds that make it pretty OP in small fights and skirmishes.

On the other hand, they’re underpowered in larger fights, so… yeah.

Realistically, what we’d need is this:

  • Removal of all non-personal cleansing. Maybe Guardian can have cleanse-other as an elite, but it’d be targeted, not AE.
  • Removal of all AE purging.
  • Substantial reduction to how frequently conditions are applied.
  • Substantial reduction to how frequently boons are available.
  • Substantial increase to the power of both conditions and boons.

In other words, very few of them (if you get rid of torment you will have a few before you get a new one), but very very powerful. If you move with Torment, you will die.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Kukchi.6173

Kukchi.6173

Carighan, has no idea what he talking about. Condition needs to be toned down, its a fact. Getting ticks of 3k+ conditions is wrong.

Human thief lvl 80 pistol dagger pistol sword cheese extreme.
Anet fix thief plz its boring now :(

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Carighan, has no idea what he talking about. Condition needs to be toned down, its a fact. Getting ticks of 3k+ conditions is wrong.

Uh huh. I guess if you run full glasscannon, that could hurt you. If you ignore it. And give the condi user 10-15 seconds to apply whatever ends up killing you.

Ok sorry, I agree: If you’re AFK, conditions kill you. Also if you do 1v1, but then your problem isn’t with the conditions, it’s with playing badly.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Zardul.3952

Zardul.3952

No1 in this forum is taking into account Toughness .. power builds or zerkers do 50% less dmg to the majority of condi gear because of TOUGHNESS

Condi gear.. relys on Condi clease from Traits or skills.

Condi will forever be OP there is no Dmg reduction for it.

Main: lvl 80 Ranger ,
Alt: lvl 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Zardul.3952

Zardul.3952

i can AA you and put about 10 stacks of bleeds. i can then use my other skilsl to apply 4-8 other conditions ..
i can then use my own skills to negate your dmg and dodge.

Condi rules for all PvP.

power builds dont compare at all..

Main: lvl 80 Ranger ,
Alt: lvl 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Zardul.3952

Zardul.3952

not to mention.. Conditions only need Condi Dmg on stats.

i can mix and match gear far more easily than a power build which require at a base POWER AND PRECISION

Main: lvl 80 Ranger ,
Alt: lvl 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Zardul.3952

Zardul.3952

your a zerker that relys on heavy Multipliers and 1 hit Wonder skills.. fine…
ill ust dodge out my way and CC you whilst AAing you to death.
my fear, imbolize , stun, daze, cripple, chill

its all based around PVP.

Main: lvl 80 Ranger ,
Alt: lvl 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Zardul.3952

Zardul.3952

im in for condis being nerfed a little.

or Buff condition dmg but remove the Auto attack application

Main: lvl 80 Ranger ,
Alt: lvl 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Nikkinella.8254

Nikkinella.8254

I bet if they put an item in the gemstore that you could consume that would completely negate conditions, and another that completely negates physical damage but cant be used at the same time, everyone would get the one that negates conditions. Physical damage is so easy to avoid and compared to condition spam. Anet would make fortune on that one and would probably eventually remove the one that negates physical damage because no one would ever buy that one.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

No1 in this forum is taking into account Toughness .. power builds or zerkers do 50% less dmg to the majority of condi gear because of TOUGHNESS

Condi gear.. relys on Condi clease from Traits or skills.

Condi will forever be OP there is no Dmg reduction for it.

That is a compounding problem.
Everyone, if they have a free item slot, gets Toughness. Why? Because otherwise Thieves and Warriors and just about everyone can kill you with direct damage in two hits.

Only… against conditions, you’d want Vitality and Healing Power, either or a mix. It’s not that there’s no defensive stat, it’s that the pure power of direct damage forces everyone to build against it, whether they’d like to or not.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

No1 in this forum is taking into account Toughness .. power builds or zerkers do 50% less dmg to the majority of condi gear because of TOUGHNESS

Condi gear.. relys on Condi clease from Traits or skills.

Condi will forever be OP there is no Dmg reduction for it.

That is a compounding problem.
Everyone, if they have a free item slot, gets Toughness. Why? Because otherwise Thieves and Warriors and just about everyone can kill you with direct damage in two hits.

Only… against conditions, you’d want Vitality and Healing Power, either or a mix. It’s not that there’s no defensive stat, it’s that the pure power of direct damage forces everyone to build against it, whether they’d like to or not.

Then stop thinking more HP or recovery will outdo conditions you need cleansing. If I as a thief can do it others classes should be fine.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Zardul.3952

Zardul.3952

there is no let down to conditions other than condi cleanse traits.

power builds have Toughness, vitality, healing, defence, dodge, dmg reduction skills, traits, chill, cripple, stun etc e tc etc etc

there is soo much down sides to power builds, condi is like running GOD mode.

why would you try to instantly kill someone who can do all of the above and just laugh at you and watch you run around like a headless chicken taking dmg from auto application stacks.

its laughable.

even Thiefs can apply condis .. stealth.. apply condis.. stealth.. its a joke how powerful condis are. you can even afk on them

Main: lvl 80 Ranger ,
Alt: lvl 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Bombsaway.7198

Bombsaway.7198

I play both power and condition on different characters.
Whether you think condition or power or X is Op often depends on your server unless you are a pure PvE player.

When someone says condition thieves dominate roaming. . . it just depends on the server really.

But a few points we should be able to agree on:

1. Conditions don’t telegraph like physical attacks because they can be removed before they do big damage.
2. The active play is on the part of the player who got conditions figuring out when and how to remove them (or not to).
3. Conditions time to kill is higher which means you have far more time to defend and then figure out how to burst down the opponent.
4. The larger the fight, the less value a individual condition character has such that eventually several of them are ineffective.
5. In smaller fights, the conditions that most people fear are generally “increase duration” meaning that having 2 characters who are speced to apply the same condition together do less damage. Two that apply different conditions is coordinated great play (and somewhat rare frankly in my experience).
6. In very small fights, conditions tend to be extremely potent because you can apply quite a few quickly (especially if you have all of them like an engineer). It is an issue of damage X number of conditions.
7. For very small fights, the condition damage isn’t the problem as much as the ability to apply a great number of conditions and avoid fighting thereafter of some classes.
8. Conditions have to be thought in two parts: damage and number of conditions applied.
9. Typically, a character does one better than another. Few apply a great number of conditions at top damage. Take an engineer. They do very well with burning and confusion in particular (along with cc and vulnerability) but their bleed stacks are a fraction of what other toons do (typically).
10. The difficult balance in condition damage is the rate of application versus the rate of removal. You don’t want the potential to remove all conditions anymore than the game wanted a healer who could remove all physical damage.
11. If there is one thing that could be changed, it would be the prioritization or condition removal. In other words, the problem often is that the defender can only remove 2-3 conditions but has 6+ on them and no ability to determine which get removed by what needs removed. It is the damage “hiding” or “covering” that artificially gives “condition overload” under some circumstances.

In an ideal World, a defender would have a panel that allowed him/her to rank all conditions by importance TO THEM for removal. Each removal skill (if not limited to certain conditions) would check against the priorities of the list. Of course, you may run into attackers who have totally different conditions than you expected but that is strategy.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

But if that is the case, how come everything is power-driven right now? And was before the strength runes, too?

I mean yes, on paper, isolated, a single condition seems good compared to a single power attack, except ofc the usual downsides like cleansability and needing 5-10 seconds to actually deal the damage.

But in actual play, this doesn’t pan out, partially because few cleanses trade 1-for-1. They’re group cleanses or all-cleanses, or transmute to boons or give damage or other buffs in return.
But also because conditions just have a high opportunity cost. They take time both to apply and to deal damage, power attacks do it in the same moment. So not only do you open up the enemy to remove them, you give them time they’re still alive in which they can a) kill you, b) retreat and heal up or c) cycle their CDs to do (a) or (b).

On top of that, conditions lack scalability. Point-for-point, power attacks outscale conditions, who also have the problem that a condition-applying attack partially scales off direct damage stats. So to maximize damage, a condition-user would actually need Power, Precision, Ferocity and Malice. So you can’t even go full-condition-glass if you wanted to, too few item slots.

So again, why are conditions seen so overpowered by the vocal community (the gamer community at large seems to not care any less, look at WvW for example, or PvE. If you were to grab 100 players evenly spread, I doubt you’d have a significant number tell you that conditions need anything but a buff, especially the Guardians :P )?

Well…

  • For one, like I said, everything which kills you is power damage. People <3 power damage. It looks awesome, huge numbers, fast numbers, bam, bam, bam, enemy dead in 4 seconds flat. As a result of this hype for direct damage (and it’s raw potential, it’s the primary way to kill people in tPvP, WvW and PvE), Toughness is a very mandatory stat. You don’t want to go out in PvP without Toughness, unless you are certain you can out-glass the glasscannons. And if you got one defensive stat, adding another is tricky. Soldiers works, but people prefer Knight for higher toughness + crit procs. As a result, very few people run anything closely resembling condition-durable.
  • Very few conditions are based on melee combat. OTOH, the average MMORPG players <3s melee combat. Melee-range warriors, thieves, melee guardians, these are in high player demand, they “feel good”. Not isolated in GW2 either, these archetypes are always played the most in any MMO. But, much direct damage is melee based and AE based. What do players want to play? 1v1, which capitalizes on a) outranging the enemy to deny them attacks, b) AEs being meh because there’s only one target and c) being a stupid game mode in the first place. Result: Frustration.
  • Conditions have a very significant psychological aspect which is too commonly ignored. If you have 20k HP and I hit you for 5k, you get an adrenaline surge. You just lost 25% of your HP, you are in danger, react fast, dodge, block, hit me in turn, distance, CC, panic. That is how your brain reacts to these spikes in your input. Conditions “gently” easy in the damage. You get hit by 4 attacks over 3 seconds, each chipping 200 HP off. So what. Oh, now you’re burning for a lot of damage and bleeding on top of that. You try to dodge, it’s not working. You block, it doesn’t work! panic! Adrenaline! It’s… too late. And that’s the thing. With conditions, the dangerous attack is the one before your adrenaline alerts you to you being in danger. That’s when you need to block/dodge. Because really, that condition-applying autoattack isn’t some magical thing. It’s the same autoattack which a power user uses, only it applies a condition and virtually no direct damage now. And yet somehow, half the playerbase deems the condition-application not dodge-worthy, but the 3k critting power AA is.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Condition duration food is the culprit. 40% duration is insane. That’s analogous to +40% dmg for a power build.

There is also -40% condi dmg food also. Please get a grip.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

there is no let down to conditions other than condi cleanse traits.

power builds have Toughness, vitality, healing, defence, dodge, dmg reduction skills, traits, chill, cripple, stun etc e tc etc etc

there is soo much down sides to power builds, condi is like running GOD mode.

why would you try to instantly kill someone who can do all of the above and just laugh at you and watch you run around like a headless chicken taking dmg from auto application stacks.

its laughable.

even Thiefs can apply condis .. stealth.. apply condis.. stealth.. its a joke how powerful condis are. you can even afk on them

If you take this from a different point of view.. You know what you are getting when using zerker gear for a conditioner to beat you he or she needs to disable you or protect themselves from your damage.
You choose to protect your self or not with traits or utilities. In the end it’s all about who put more pressure to panick other so he or she messes up. In other words if rather than dps or burst the foe down while evading the more dangerous conditions you start running or become passive he wins.
I play condi thief you shouldn’t be worried about them or stealth. It’s all about exploiting the other classes weaknesses and if you can’t protect your self from conditions I will be more than happy to exploit that.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Condition duration food is the culprit. 40% duration is insane. That’s analogous to +40% dmg for a power build.

There is also -40% condi dmg food also. Please get a grip.

Yes ,and both are bad.
Note: I don’t consider conditions too strong, I just think the food is stupid. Both of them.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Narkodx.1472

Narkodx.1472

But if that is the case, how come everything is power-driven right now? And was before the strength runes, too?

I mean yes, on paper, isolated, a single condition seems good compared to a single power attack, except ofc the usual downsides like cleansability and needing 5-10 seconds to actually deal the damage.

But in actual play, this doesn’t pan out, partially because few cleanses trade 1-for-1. They’re group cleanses or all-cleanses, or transmute to boons or give damage or other buffs in return.
But also because conditions just have a high opportunity cost. They take time both to apply and to deal damage, power attacks do it in the same moment. So not only do you open up the enemy to remove them, you give them time they’re still alive in which they can a) kill you, b) retreat and heal up or c) cycle their CDs to do (a) or (b).

On top of that, conditions lack scalability. Point-for-point, power attacks outscale conditions, who also have the problem that a condition-applying attack partially scales off direct damage stats. So to maximize damage, a condition-user would actually need Power, Precision, Ferocity and Malice. So you can’t even go full-condition-glass if you wanted to, too few item slots.

So again, why are conditions seen so overpowered by the vocal community (the gamer community at large seems to not care any less, look at WvW for example, or PvE. If you were to grab 100 players evenly spread, I doubt you’d have a significant number tell you that conditions need anything but a buff, especially the Guardians :P )?

Well…

  • For one, like I said, everything which kills you is power damage. People <3 power damage. It looks awesome, huge numbers, fast numbers, bam, bam, bam, enemy dead in 4 seconds flat. As a result of this hype for direct damage (and it’s raw potential, it’s the primary way to kill people in tPvP, WvW and PvE), Toughness is a very mandatory stat. You don’t want to go out in PvP without Toughness, unless you are certain you can out-glass the glasscannons. And if you got one defensive stat, adding another is tricky. Soldiers works, but people prefer Knight for higher toughness + crit procs. As a result, very few people run anything closely resembling condition-durable.
  • Very few conditions are based on melee combat. OTOH, the average MMORPG players <3s melee combat. Melee-range warriors, thieves, melee guardians, these are in high player demand, they “feel good”. Not isolated in GW2 either, these archetypes are always played the most in any MMO. But, much direct damage is melee based and AE based. What do players want to play? 1v1, which capitalizes on a) outranging the enemy to deny them attacks, b) AEs being meh because there’s only one target and c) being a stupid game mode in the first place. Result: Frustration.
  • Conditions have a very significant psychological aspect which is too commonly ignored. If you have 20k HP and I hit you for 5k, you get an adrenaline surge. You just lost 25% of your HP, you are in danger, react fast, dodge, block, hit me in turn, distance, CC, panic. That is how your brain reacts to these spikes in your input. Conditions “gently” easy in the damage. You get hit by 4 attacks over 3 seconds, each chipping 200 HP off. So what. Oh, now you’re burning for a lot of damage and bleeding on top of that. You try to dodge, it’s not working. You block, it doesn’t work! panic! Adrenaline! It’s… too late. And that’s the thing. With conditions, the dangerous attack is the one before your adrenaline alerts you to you being in danger. That’s when you need to block/dodge. Because really, that condition-applying autoattack isn’t some magical thing. It’s the same autoattack which a power user uses, only it applies a condition and virtually no direct damage now. And yet somehow, half the playerbase deems the condition-application not dodge-worthy, but the 3k critting power AA is.

Why do you bother?

Tomorrow there will be a thread on nerfing conditions.

The experienced players who play both condi and power know the truth.

Thanks for the effort though, nice post

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

Burst condition is stupid.

Would you say it is more or less stupid the using the term burst in conjunction with a damage over time component?

im in for condis being nerfed a little.

or Buff condition dmg but remove the Auto attack application

That doesn’t make any sense. Why shouldn’t condition builds apply conditions on AA? Engineers only MH condition weapon does 2 bleeds on AA. Thats what? 300ish damage on a high condi damage build? Yet I can double that with the rifle, its direct damage counterpart, in soldiers gear.

The problem is, many of you arguing against conditions are not present any factual damage comparison. Whats worse is, you use the very very select few skills that are OP to represent condition damage as a whole.

The fact is, that there is nothing wrong with conditions in the least. There are simply very specific weapon+trait combinations that can be on the OP side. You do yourselves a great disservice by making unsubstantiated claims about the damage type as a whole, because the devs will literally ignore that. They have stated hundreds of times that they ignore post of this nature.

If you have a specific build, or trait, and weapon combination that you feel is too strong, then present it for discussion. Don’t regurgitate what you read in other post about dire gear or precision, as it has already been solidly proven that every profession has soldiers gear builds that have equal, if not greater damage output.

(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)

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Posted by: Brando.1374

Brando.1374

there is no let down to conditions other than condi cleanse traits.

there is soo much down sides to power builds, condi is like running GOD mode.

why would you try to instantly kill someone who can do all of the above and just laugh at you and watch you run around like a headless chicken taking dmg from auto application stacks.

its laughable.

even Thiefs can apply condis .. stealth.. apply condis.. stealth.. its a joke how powerful condis are. you can even afk on them

ok ill bite.
here is a vid were I am running in "god mode"
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319 (running 0/6/4/4/0)

here is a vid where my god mode met Ultraggomgwtfgodmode warrior who pretty much just laughed when I tried all I could but didnt even dent his hp.
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535 (same 0/6/4/4/0)

difference between the 2?
one has -% duration food and possibly runes, knows how to clear conditions, and above all he isnt a bad player.

(sorry for those who have already seen these vids posted several times)

Xxkakarot [GF] Good Fights
Dark Wizard Incar [GF] Good Fights
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

difference between the 2?
one has -% duration food and possibly runes, knows how to clear conditions, and above all he isnt a bad player.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So your telling me that instead of raging on the forums that something was OP when you do not build to counter it, as some of the above posters have, this guy put counters in his build? And it works? Wow, that is a true stroke of genius, It is a shame no one has every thought of that before.

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

difference between the 2?
one has -% duration food and possibly runes, knows how to clear conditions, and above all he isnt a bad player.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So your telling me that instead of raging on the forums that something was OP when you do not build to counter it, as some of the above posters have, this guy put counters in his build? And it works? Wow, that is a true stroke of genius, It is a shame no one has every thought of that before.

Heavy counters, you are witnessing the full effect of Lemongrass Poultry + Melandru runes, and I think at least 1 Cleansing Ire or Signet cleanse (cleansed 2 conditions before their timer went off).

Also, hammer stuns on a low-to-no stability profession.

Edit: With what seems to be Sword/Shield as the swap set, for the shield bash and mobility of the sword. When your CC weapon is what’s doing most of your damage though, it seems somewhat problematic.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

(edited by lunyboy.8672)