Guild Wars 2

sinject.4607:

you’re beyond saving. you’re so convinced that you’re right about conditions being balanced and yet you’re never able to prove otherwise.

im seriously waiting for the post where you prove through any bit of logic that conditions are not overpowered.

Odd statements here. No one is presenting any intelligent argument that conditions are over powered. Almost all except a very select few simply make some random “boo, conditions are OP” and offer absolutely zero evidence as to how. As well , you haven’t offered any reasonable argument that I have seen, much less offered any actual facts.

shimmerless.4560:

If you really think it would ever be possible for a Mesmer to have 20 seconds where he couldn’t do significant damage, I’d be more than happy to set the record straight, love.

I was asking a specific poster some specific questions, about a very specific fight and situation that they laid out.

Sorry if that confused you. I thought the fact that I quoted them specifically, and directed my questions to that posters situation made it pretty clear. But if you can set the record straight and answer those questions for him, please do.

gartz.7013:

i like to think multiple posts of the same thing will get the devs the hint that we want a change

Who is we? What causes you to feel you speak for them? By what measurement do you gauge there is some majority on the measure?

ErazorZ.5209:

Arenanet should CONFIRM theyr working on countering terrible-condi spammers.

How can they do that? What is “spamming” by your definition? How do condition builds spam their skills and faster or slower then direct damage builds?

@sinject
Do you have any facts or damage comparisons, or anything that could be reasonably considered a reasonable fact to support your repetitive claims ??

Please, link your build that you have problems against conditions with, so we may start there. Perhaps we can offer suggestions to aid you.

coglin.1867:

I was asking a specific poster some specific questions, about a very specific fight and situation that they laid out.

Sorry if that confused you. I thought the fact that I quoted them specifically, and directed my questions to that posters situation made it pretty clear. But if you can set the record straight and answer those questions for him, please do.

Oh, it was quite clear. I will admit though that your own brand of mathcraft is eluding me. “8 – 20 seconds” downtime? (Boy, 12 seconds is quite the fudge factor). Where did you get this figure from?

One of the advantages of any kind of pressure Mesmer is that it doesn’t really live by burst cooldowns. This is thanks in large part to illusion activity cycles and nowhere will you see this carried out to its extreme ends than on an on-death or a phant-geared spec.

Wait, Shimmerless, are you suggesting that we start using damage comparison numbers and actual facts with numerical values for arguments on this thread now?

If so, I would really like to see your thoughts on how conditions as a whole are over powered compared to direct damage skills. Seems a bit out of sorts to see you criticize anothers numbers when you have not offered us any at this point.

Personally, It seemed to me, that common sense would dictate that he was simply making a point about the other poster mentioning spamming all of the skills, then that would be a good time to use a cleanse. I never did see where ash mentioned using any cleanses.

Swim.6830:

Yeah because mobility and fury is equivalent to the opponent getting hit by – weakness, chill, immobilize, cripple, vulnerability and blindness.

Take a Axe /dager necromancer and you can do all those things in power.

Swim.6830:

And yes, I said at once, but what is actually happening is the usage of abilities with very little animation/cast-time.

Of course it is, due to the nature of cleansing (it works after the condition was placed), it would be incredibly useless to even try condition builds if they had the same tells.

The abilities you pointed out are some of the strongest direct ones and they are far too few in total.

Strange, I haven’t even spoken about warrior hammer (75% untraited weakness uptime with one skill alone add cripple (I think AOE) and cc), guardian hammer (another damage/ control weapon with extra support), warrior mace main hand (5 seconds weakness on auto attack, daze and block), ranger greatsword ( blocks, evades, stuns, knock down and mobility), guardian greatsword (blind, pull, retaliation and might), mesmer greatsword (vulnerability,might, aoe boon stripping, aoe cripple, knock back), … (the list goes longer but I’m rather lazy).

Swim.6830:

By resistance I do not mean time duration. I mean actual resistance – % damage negated like toughness.

Well it kinda does , only it takes some time and is rather subtle. The stacks on you will be lower and you will take less damage/second.

Swim.6830:

Direct damage has this equivalent.

So power does not have a -X% duration equivalent.

Swim.6830:

Since it’s difficult to grasp, here is how condi builds feel right now – imagine a build with 60% crit chance, 2900 armor, 190% crit damage, 2200 strength and 23k health. This build can also CC you like crazy

Well that is your opinion but it does not say anything nor add it any value to this discussion.

Swim.6830:

and has a class survivability of either – secondary health bar with extra abilities; access to stealth and multiple invulnerabilities and evasions.

And this class is also ranged and has AI do some extra stuff sometimes.

Well that does not change for both power or condition builds.

In-depth math with condition vs direct damage, is pointless because the way the combat system works, there are just to many variables, look at PVE, math is used there and Zerker is prevalent, because it’s vs AI which stands still and soaks all the damage, which is why condition specs are less desirable in PVE, zerkers can land every single hit , while condition specs have to wait for ticks. VS real players it’s a entirely different game, you’ve got dodges, obstructions, fleeing, kiting, blocks, CC, soft CC, weakness, cleansing, etc. So bringing in, in-depth math is pointless vs actual in-game play.

sinject.4607:

you’re beyond saving. you’re so convinced that you’re right about conditions being balanced and yet you’re never able to prove otherwise.

im seriously waiting for the post where you prove through any bit of logic that conditions are not overpowered.

Oh was this your thread or the one crying about incendiary powder based upon your assessment of dhuumfire? Sorry I provide good counter arguments to your one-liners “Conditions OP YO!” and that’s all you provide.

Even in your vague incendiary powder thread I say my opinion then other people echo similar counters. I don’t know them in person, we are aren’t bunk mates. You look like a fool for comparing 1 trait that has been around since launch vs one that came just mid last year but they do burning. So since they both do burning it’s bad.

If I go into your post history will I find a thread or post by you crying about incendiary powder before necro’s got dhuumfire? Probably not.

Fyi I main elementalist and would never run a condition build on it. I also would never put one on my Warrior. I do run them on 3 other classes from time to time and my engi and necro are exclusive condition builds. I have 7 classes at 80 and only 2 of those classes have builds where conditions are my favorite builds for them.

I was anti condition camp about a month or so ago. You can check that in my post history saying the same things I seen said by you and others. My angle was ease of application Dranour, Carighan, and Coglin’s posts and counters to my angle made me look at it differently. I’m not stubborn or biased if you can present something solid then I have no problem agreeing and even changing sides on the debate. The anti-condition chant isn’t solid it’s basically the same thing in different threads and as vague as possible 9/10. I do duel but never cared about it that much that I think it’s something that should be balanced on.

But but Ozii, Conditions are OP! Don’t you know?
What do you mean, I can dodge the application to completely avoid them, just like with direct damage? What do you mean, they actually have one more counter strategy than direct damage? What do you mean, they’re already useless in most parts of the game due to rampant cleansing and limited condi slots.

Seriously, this whole discussion would improve if ANet would just make tPvP 10v10. The team-size is so small, how can anyone expect anything remotely resembling balance?

I have yet to see a single reasonable argument from these anti-condition people. Which led me to conclude their condition anxiety is unreasonable, a phobia. Conditionphobia!

While on the subject of just making up new terms, my favorite one is “Condition Spam”. It sounds evil! spamming is a bad word.
But what does it even mean? Nothing!

“oh look steve, that guy over there that build to deal condition damage is applying a lot of conditions that deal damage”.
Well no kitten! Thats where his damage comes from! People who build for Power-damage use a lot of abilities that deal power damage. So why dont we ever hear anyone about “Power Spam”? Because its stupid!

You are fighting stuff, you need to kill it, naturally you will use the abilities that best convey your damage build. For power builds its power abilities, for condition builds its through applying conditions.

These people even go as far as to say that there shouldnt be any conditions on autoattack. Which is just stupid.
So only power-builds should be able to freely spam their damage type, with no cooldown? But conditions need to be rare, and rely on long cooldown/telegraphed abilities.
At this point you’re basicly just saying “i want power builds to be flat out better and easier to play then condition builds.”

This is not a discussion, these are not people who are trying to look out for the quality of the game, they simply want all conditions destroyed and condition builds to die. Thats all they want, and they wont ever stop untill that happens.

Does vulnerability and an occasional blind make me a condition build? Because I’ve been running a power-based damage Necro lately and my win/lose record has more wins than losses, so its kinda hard for me to be convinced that conditions are somehow the only winning strategy.

If anything I’m surprised how many glassy everythings I meet. You poke them with sharp stick and they just pop.

Bowflex.4502:

Power builds still work fine. If Youre running glass cannon and have low hp, that’s your own fault. One build can’t beat them all, balance doesn’t work like that, as much as you would like it to.

It’s not like everyone doesn’t have access to at least one cleanse. And if your running a power build you should have enough of a window if you time your cleanse right to turn the tables. Pay attention to your foes cooldowns,

And if your referring to wvw, don’t waste your time. You can’t simply balance a Zerg blob, and attempting to do so is folly.

So a condition build that melts people as fast as a zerker, but with 2800 armor is balanced then… yeah that makes sense…

Tim.6450:

Swim.6830:

Yeah because mobility and fury is equivalent to the opponent getting hit by – weakness, chill, immobilize, cripple, vulnerability and blindness.

Take a Axe /dager necromancer and you can do all those things in power.

Swim.6830:

And yes, I said at once, but what is actually happening is the usage of abilities with very little animation/cast-time.

Of course it is, due to the nature of cleansing (it works after the condition was placed), it would be incredibly useless to even try condition builds if they had the same tells.

The abilities you pointed out are some of the strongest direct ones and they are far too few in total.

Strange, I haven’t even spoken about warrior hammer (75% untraited weakness uptime with one skill alone add cripple (I think AOE) and cc), guardian hammer (another damage/ control weapon with extra support), warrior mace main hand (5 seconds weakness on auto attack, daze and block), ranger greatsword ( blocks, evades, stuns, knock down and mobility), guardian greatsword (blind, pull, retaliation and might), mesmer greatsword (vulnerability,might, aoe boon stripping, aoe cripple, knock back), … (the list goes longer but I’m rather lazy).

Swim.6830:

By resistance I do not mean time duration. I mean actual resistance – % damage negated like toughness.

Well it kinda does , only it takes some time and is rather subtle. The stacks on you will be lower and you will take less damage/second.

Swim.6830:

Direct damage has this equivalent.

So power does not have a -X% duration equivalent.

Swim.6830:

Since it’s difficult to grasp, here is how condi builds feel right now – imagine a build with 60% crit chance, 2900 armor, 190% crit damage, 2200 strength and 23k health. This build can also CC you like crazy

Well that is your opinion but it does not say anything nor add it any value to this discussion.

Swim.6830:

and has a class survivability of either – secondary health bar with extra abilities; access to stealth and multiple invulnerabilities and evasions.

And this class is also ranged and has AI do some extra stuff sometimes.

Well that does not change for both power or condition builds.

No you are right. When I fought this guardian, he managed to stack all these things and turned the fight…

Ok with no more sarcasm, maybe I am just coming wrong with Eles having crap secondary conditions (in terms of duration mostly) compared to other classes. Honestly with my thief with hardly any condition removal I can take down a condi necro almost easily where I would struggle as an Ele with tons of condition removal.

Or it could be that some classes can stack over 5 conditions almost at once… 3 times in a row even if you cleanse them, so at the 3rd time you are done.

Or that they can steal/turn your boons which is supposed to be your class defense mechanic, because a class with lowest HP and armor needs such a hard counter button…

As i have said before. The damage the conditions do isn’t the problem. It is and always has been the NUMBER of conditions. Conditions shouldn’t be what decides a fight spamming everything you have over and over again until the target runs out of condition removals and dies.

Unless you are built SPECIFICALLY to counter conditions you are going to have a hard time. This is taking runes, traits, sigils and everything else you can to counter them. However, you counter ONE build type but are weak to balanced builds, zerker builds and bunker builds (in that you wont kill them)

Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.

A staff Mesmer with 0/30/10/30 has access to – Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Poison, Torment, Vul and Weakness. Now while some of that is RNG based – Poison, Blind and Chill mostly they can EASILY stack the other conditions

This is the kind of thing i am talking about. That is just ONE weapon set. No runeset, no sigils or anything just ONE weapon set and trait load out.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

As i have said before. The damage the conditions do isn’t the problem. It is and always has been the NUMBER of conditions. Conditions shouldn’t be what decides a fight spamming everything you have over and over again until the target runs out of condition removals and dies.

So, what defines this as a problem? I mean, so far all you have done is state that it is one, but you offer no suggestions as to why it is a problem in any way,

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Unless you are built SPECIFICALLY to counter conditions you are going to have a hard time. This is taking runes, traits, sigils and everything else you can to counter them. However, you counter ONE build type but are weak to balanced builds, zerker builds and bunker builds (in that you wont kill them)

Umm, yeah. This is how the game is designs and built as its intended purpose. It is that whole rock, paper, scissor thing you hear about.

And If I want to deal with heavy CC builds, I can load up on stun breakers, negative stun duration food, and runes. Now I destroy CC builds, but are weak to damage builds of either kind.

See the pattern here?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.

This is brilliant in terms of build diversity. Let us force all professions to have the limitations of eles, but without diversity of attunements?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

A staff Mesmer with 0/30/10/30 has access to – Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Poison, Torment, Vul and Weakness. Now while some of that is RNG based – Poison, Blind and Chill mostly they can EASILY stack the other conditions

This is the kind of thing i am talking about. That is just ONE weapon set. No runeset, no sigils or anything just ONE weapon set and trait load out.

So we need to rebuild and redefine the entire game around this build?

So as a player who plays a staff mesmer, I would love to see you total up for us how much damage this is. First off, none of those stack “easily”, secondly, none of theme are guaranteed to apply, as it is a random chance of application.

Swim.6830:

So a condition build that melts people as fast as a zerker, but with 2800 armor is balanced then… yeah that makes sense…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASUnMdQnHW5BmCCdIGoKoQv4BwkittenrTfCddKA-TxBBABYp8DgnEgQ7PknumAukDVq+zZKBDAgAczbmNvZ28m38mH6QH6QH6Q7mD9mD9mDtUAMpMC-e

You mean like this one? 2800+ armor, 50+% crit chance. 22,400 hp, 1,000 AoE cleave damage auto attacks, that crit for over 2000 and do so over half the time.

Wearing the full zerker gear your specified. Oh, and by the way, almost completely immune to conditions in any form.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.

That doesn’t make any sense. My elementalist has bleeds, torment(superior sigil of torment), poison(superior sigil of doom), and if I chose, confusion with perplexity, and of course burning. That is 5 damaging conditions, besides the obvious vulnerability, blind, and chill.

I’m going to post a build here that I would like those defending conditions to try:

Here it is
What this build can do:
- Deal condition damage in excess of 2k a tick
- Heal itself and allies
- Stack a large amount of Might on itself and allies, further increasing its damage
- Can beat pretty much every build 1v1. You COULD build to counter it but it would cost you vs many other specs.
- Win 2v1s unless it’s against 2 condition users (Baski Venom Thieves are cute since Shrug it off instantly triggers generally, breaks the venom and activates Rousing Resilience, and gives me 1000 extra armor making follow up attacks hit for almost nothing.

This build’s power comes less from the Warrior class and more from the fact that I can deal the damage that I can while remaining tanky because I don’t need any other stat besides Condition Damage to do so. Duration isn’t important because the duration is long enough on its own and I can easily reapply the most damaging conditions. I’ve beaten power-based builds by just face tanking them. My time to kill is around the same as if I had run Axe but it’s easier to apply and with this build I can support my team. I stopped using it because I was disgusted with how strong this is. It’s also important to note that I play on a crappy throttled DSL connection (yay for no competition in my area) with 1-3 seconds delay and “freezes” and still do well.

EDIT: Also coglin if anyone is dying to that Hammer/Rifle build outside of a zerg they must be pretty terrible. This build has it beat in pretty much every way.

EDIT 2: Just for fun, after you run the build above swap over to this one and compare your performance. I enjoy running this but the level of difficulty is much higher. I’d love to run with 6 in Strength but the nerf to building Momentum makes it much less appealing. take the 2 in Strength and put it into Tactics for Desperate Power if you want to have a chance to pull some clutch saves.

EDIT: So I accidentally linked a video someone asked me to check for them…opps.

dancingmonkey.4902:

That doesn’t make any sense. My elementalist has bleeds, torment(superior sigil of torment), poison(superior sigil of doom), and if I chose, confusion with perplexity, and of course burning. That is 5 damaging conditions, besides the obvious vulnerability, blind, and chill.

Yeah, now take out the runes and sigil. What are you left with? This is what makes a BALANCED condition build. Having to make sacrifices when it comes to runes and sigils and other such items.

What other class (other than Guardian) has to give up Sigils, runes and such in order to get a reasonable amount of conditions. Even with Doom, Perplexity and Torment. Mesmer still has us beat for number of conditions and they can apply more than 1 or 2 at a time.

I mean we have to go into separate attunements to get access to our other class based condition. While Mesmer and other condition classes need not switch weapons, need not worry about lack of conditions.

That is what i am saying, when you have to make sacrifices to make your build work, that is GOOD. When you don’t that is BAD. When combined with our low health, low armor and insane cool downs on our “defensive” skills it just adds to it.

Also, Vul is not a damaging condition. It increases damage taken yeah but the condition itself does no damage. Same goes for Blind and Chill. I would like to see you be able to get all of them without having to swap attunements….

Poison, Blind, Chill, Vul all require either swapping attunements or being in a specific attunement. Yet with all of thaqt we still have LESS conditions than a Mesmer has with just 1 weapon and a trait load out.

What is sacrificial about using runes and sigils that compliment your build or help you reach a goal of the build?

Where did I say vulnerability was a damaging condition? In a group, the engineer for example, excels at stacking vulnerability and group might. This game is multiplayer oriented. These one on one fight comparisons are irrelavent, as the game is niether balanced for one on one, nor is one on one any game mode.

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

As i have said before. The damage the conditions do isn’t the problem. It is and always has been the NUMBER of conditions. Conditions shouldn’t be what decides a fight spamming everything you have over and over again until the target runs out of condition removals and dies.

So, what defines this as a problem? I mean, so far all you have done is state that it is one, but you offer no suggestions as to why it is a problem in any way,

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Unless you are built SPECIFICALLY to counter conditions you are going to have a hard time. This is taking runes, traits, sigils and everything else you can to counter them. However, you counter ONE build type but are weak to balanced builds, zerker builds and bunker builds (in that you wont kill them)

Umm, yeah. This is how the game is designs and built as its intended purpose. It is that whole rock, paper, scissor thing you hear about.

And If I want to deal with heavy CC builds, I can load up on stun breakers, negative stun duration food, and runes. Now I destroy CC builds, but are weak to damage builds of either kind.

See the pattern here?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.

This is brilliant in terms of build diversity. Let us force all professions to have the limitations of eles, but without diversity of attunements?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

A staff Mesmer with 0/30/10/30 has access to – Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Poison, Torment, Vul and Weakness. Now while some of that is RNG based – Poison, Blind and Chill mostly they can EASILY stack the other conditions

This is the kind of thing i am talking about. That is just ONE weapon set. No runeset, no sigils or anything just ONE weapon set and trait load out.

So we need to rebuild and redefine the entire game around this build?

So as a player who plays a staff mesmer, I would love to see you total up for us how much damage this is. First off, none of those stack “easily”, secondly, none of theme are guaranteed to apply, as it is a random chance of application.

Swim.6830:

So a condition build that melts people as fast as a zerker, but with 2800 armor is balanced then… yeah that makes sense…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASUnMdQnHW5BmCCdIGoKoQv4BwkittenrTfCddKA-TxBBABYp8DgnEgQ7PknumAukDVq+zZKBDAgAczbmNvZ28m38mH6QH6QH6Q7mD9mD9mDtUAMpMC-e

You mean like this one? 2800+ armor, 50+% crit chance. 22,400 hp, 1,000 AoE cleave damage auto attacks, that crit for over 2000 and do so over half the time.

Wearing the full zerker gear your specified. Oh, and by the way, almost completely immune to conditions in any form.

Aye that one… and we all know where it stands in terms of balance.

I was focusing more on spvp though. No torment sigils there and no confusion runes…

coglin.1867:

stuff

The problem being that spamming of conditions is MUCH easier than the removal of conditions. The application is ALWAYS stronger. Pretty much every class has quick, easy and some times spammable access to conditions. While the removal of conditions just isn’t strong enough to cope with the spam, spam, spam.

When you can apply 5-6 conditions in the first few seconds of a fight (that is without even using Sig of Spite) you have issues. these conditions will normally involve Cripples, Bleeding and Burning some times even chill for the added cool downs and Poison for the healing reduction.

That is at range as well, so even before you have gotten to your target to attack them you are already at a disadvantage that only grows from there. Unless of course you have enough condition removal to remove them all, in which case seconds later you will have more conditions and be running out of ways to remove them.

Maybe if they added condition removal to skills, but in specific ways. For example. If you (using ele as an example) use Burning Speed or Ring of Fire, it could remove Chill. Use Frozen Burst to remove Burning. Sure their would be ways for this to be done with other classes as well, though cool downs would need to be adjusted on the skills that are under 10 seconds cool down.

Yeah, however. That condition build will be able to fight pretty much every other build – Zerker, Bunker and even other condition builds depending on who they are. So while we are limited to countering ONE build the build they are using counters many more.

Oh yeah, i forgot. No one wants to actually play the game with the limitations of the ele, because most of them would quit after getting beaten. The attunements, the thing that actually damages the class more than anything else. We have INSANE cool downs on pretty much everything.

I think it would have just been better to make each weapon linked to a specific attunement or something and get rid of the attunements altogether but of course it is too late now.

That is just an example of ONE build on ONE class. I can give you examples for Warrior, Thief, Engineer and Necromancer if you like as well. None of them easily stacked? Lol, i have a Mesmer and it is FAR from hard stacking them, especially with staff clones, on death traits (which should have a cool down imo) but

As i have said many times it is NOT the damage that is the problem, it is the number of conditions when you have Burning, Poison, Confusion as well as stacks of Torment, Bleeding and others it simply is an up hill battle JUST to remove them but then, they are back on you in seconds anyway.

dancingmonkey.4902:

What is sacrificial about using runes and sigils that compliment your build or help you reach a goal of the build?

Where did I say vulnerability was a damaging condition? In a group, the engineer for example, excels at stacking vulnerability and group might. This game is multiplayer oriented. These one on one fight comparisons are irrelavent, as the game is niether balanced for one on one, nor is one on one any game mode.

Because we are FORCED into using them. Try going condi without them. It simply can not be done because of the lack of condition covers. That is what every other condition build has without even needing runes or sigils. Thus they can use these for more offensive or defensive options like Sigil of Battle or Energy.

Sure, it is multiplayer based – the group that has more access to conditions than the other group has access to removals will win more than they lose. Because they are built defensive and thus not as weak to zerk builds but have high condition damage and easy access to conditions and can reapply y faster than you can remove.

That is what all condition builds should be. Other than Necro no class should have access to nearly every condition in the game without needing specific runes or sigils. The Mesmer one i mentioned the ONLY conditions the weapon set and trait load out i mentioned doesnt have is Fear and Immboilzie. The traits alone give them access to Bleeding, Confusion, Torment, Weakness and Vul.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem being that spamming of conditions is MUCH easier than the removal of conditions.

Wait…Wha……What? Well DUH. If cleanses kept pace with condition removal, then condition builds would be completely useless. This already occurs in WvW any time you have and groups of significant size clashing at all. It is one thing to offer a reasonable argument, but to expect a 100% counter 100% of the time doesn’t make a lot of sense.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Because we are FORCED into using them. Try going condi without them. It simply can not be done because of the lack of condition covers.

It appears you do not understand the definition of “forced”. You really should work on that. Proclaiming “optimal” to mean the same as “forced” does nothing for your argument. Your making way to many blind assumptions here. We do not all follow your build perspective in out professions, and we do not all build for 10% damage optimization all the time, if ever.

I do go conditions without them easily. In my condition build, I generally run with generosity and purity.

I’m not gonna comment too much on this, since I recently returned and I don’t know nearly enough about the topic. From what I’ve read, my only thought is why condi-removal abilities don’t also apply a brief immunity. Even something like 3 seconds seems like it’d help, if the problem is that conditions get spammed so easily that they’re right back on you (in bulk) right away. Perhaps it would only protect against damaging conditions, and not utility ones like Blind, Weakness, etc., since those seem less prevalent anyways.

dancingmonkey.4902:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem being that spamming of conditions is MUCH easier than the removal of conditions.

Wait…Wha……What? Well DUH. If cleanses kept pace with condition removal, then condition builds would be completely useless. This already occurs in WvW any time you have and groups of significant size clashing at all. It is one thing to offer a reasonable argument, but to expect a 100% counter 100% of the time doesn’t make a lot of sense.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Because we are FORCED into using them. Try going condi without them. It simply can not be done because of the lack of condition covers.

It appears you do not understand the definition of “forced”. You really should work on that. Proclaiming “optimal” to mean the same as “forced” does nothing for your argument. Your making way to many blind assumptions here. We do not all follow your build perspective in out professions, and we do not all build for 10% damage optimization all the time, if ever.

I do go conditions without them easily. In my condition build, I generally run with generosity and purity.

The problem being that the removals are NO where near that of the application. So in the end the result doesnt change. You having Condition removal doesn’t change the fight. Unless you are FULL anti-condi and in most situations it will just be a draw and not a win.

Of course i am not saying that the removal should be as strong as the application, but they do need to be stronger. An example i gave of a possible way to deal with it, make some skills remove specific conditions, not 3 or 4 but just one but of a specific kind. Like Ring of Fire removing Chill, Burning Speed removing Cripple, Frozen Burst removing Burning that sort of thing.

If you are condi ele with only Burning and Bleeding as your damaging conditions then you are going to struggle. So yes if you actually want to be able to kill people with condition removal then you need to have others.

I have met quite a few condi ele since i started threads about them and posting my condi ele builds, You however would be the first that doesnt use them. What Runeset do you run with out of curiosity?

dancingmonkey.4902:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem being that spamming of conditions is MUCH easier than the removal of conditions.

Wait…Wha……What? Well DUH. If cleanses kept pace with condition removal, then condition builds would be completely useless. This already occurs in WvW any time you have and groups of significant size clashing at all. It is one thing to offer a reasonable argument, but to expect a 100% counter 100% of the time doesn’t make a lot of sense.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Because we are FORCED into using them. Try going condi without them. It simply can not be done because of the lack of condition covers.

It appears you do not understand the definition of “forced”. You really should work on that. Proclaiming “optimal” to mean the same as “forced” does nothing for your argument. Your making way to many blind assumptions here. We do not all follow your build perspective in out professions, and we do not all build for 10% damage optimization all the time, if ever.

I do go conditions without them easily. In my condition build, I generally run with generosity and purity.

The same can be said about control. If you can’t control someone reliably what would be the point of control builds? Yet people will rage on and on about Hammer on Warrior even though it’s much easier to mitigate than unblockable Marks and Grenades. When it comes to control though you can take just a few different things and be set, with conditions I can dedicate most of my build to it and still be overwhelmed.

On a Warrior I could run Cleansing Ire with a bow, Sigils of Purity, Dogged March, Signet of Stamina, Berserker’s Stance, and Lyssa/Mel Runes and STILL get overwhelmed in a team fight. To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power. Now I find myself drawn to condi more and more because I can wear them down before they wear me down and not lose that much offensive capability.

If you want to be competitive then optimal might as well mean forced if you’re serious about doing well. If I look at my build options and choice B gives more positives than A and C then chances are I’m going to use B even if it’s only marginally better. Good players are always going to use the best possible builds.

EDIT: Here is a build like I described

Meanwhile I could just run this and kill the condition user and any power user stupid enough to go after me.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem being that the removals are NO where near that of the application. So in the end the result doesnt change. You having Condition removal doesn’t change the fight. Unless you are FULL anti-condi and in most situations it will just be a draw and not a win.

By Full anti-condi you mean “conditon cleans” ?

If you are condi ele with only Burning and Bleeding as your damaging conditions then you are going to struggle. So yes if you actually want to be able to kill people with condition removal then you need to have others.

I think that i won, i have only bleed on my necro.

BurrTheKing.8571:

To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power.

Exactly. This is the point exactly. You chose not to specialize away from heavy direct damage, then complain and that the disadvantage to your build should be specifically nerfed or that it is over powered after you chose not to counter it in your build.

pierwola.9602:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem being that the removals are NO where near that of the application. So in the end the result doesnt change. You having Condition removal doesn’t change the fight. Unless you are FULL anti-condi and in most situations it will just be a draw and not a win.

By Full anti-condi you mean “conditon cleans” ?

If you are condi ele with only Burning and Bleeding as your damaging conditions then you are going to struggle. So yes if you actually want to be able to kill people with condition removal then you need to have others.

I think that i won, i have only bleed on my necro.

By “full anti-condi” i mean taking EVERYTHING you can to counter conditions – traits, runes, sigils, food. everything.

If you only have bleeding – you are not a condi necro.

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power.

Exactly. This is the point exactly. You chose not to specialize away from heavy direct damage, then complain and that the disadvantage to your build should be specifically nerfed or that it is over powered after you chose not to counter it in your build.

Just curious, what do Condi builds give up exactly? If anti-condi builds ONLY work against condi classes and weak to everything else. What exactly does Condi give up when they go that route? Nothing.

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power.

Exactly. This is the point exactly. You chose not to specialize away from heavy direct damage, then complain and that the disadvantage to your build should be specifically nerfed or that it is over powered after you chose not to counter it in your build.

So if I rune melandru runes, generosity/purity sigil, and rune around destroying condition roamers in WvW in 1v1 fights, then by Burrtheking and others own definition, clearly stuns and direct damage are extremely over powered.

Should all go and spam make threads about how direct damage builds are over powered, and that soldiers gear needs to be nerfed because it is too much damage, for the amount of armor/health compared to an anti-condition build ?? It seems to me to be the logic of most of the claimers here that there is some issue with conditions.

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power.

Exactly. This is the point exactly. You chose not to specialize away from heavy direct damage, then complain and that the disadvantage to your build should be specifically nerfed or that it is over powered after you chose not to counter it in your build.

I’m going to keep using the control example. You do not generally NEED to spec into having tons of stun breaks/stability to beat control heavy builds. But when it comes to conditions, if you do not heavily spec into anti-condi you will be overwhelmed by them. Sure, you can beat a single condi user but it’s when you get multiple where it doesn’t matter how much removal you have because it will eventually run dry. If you have Stability you are safe from control so long as it isn’t stripped. You can cleanse a condition but outside of 8 seconds of Zerker Stance it’s going to come right back. It’s especially bad with Burngineers. “Oh, you got rid of that burn? Here have another.”

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Just curious, what do Condi builds give up exactly? If anti-condi builds ONLY work against condi classes and weak to everything else. What exactly does Condi give up when they go that route? Nothing.

Fast kill speed, which means they are slower to take capture points. They also generally sacrifice mobility (even condition thieves are considerably less mobile on average) and have the disadvantage that their assault can be more easily survived, as you can kill them, then heal/cleanse.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m going to keep using the control example. You do not generally NEED to spec into having tons of stun breaks/stability to beat control heavy builds. But when it comes to conditions, if you do not heavily spec into anti-condi you will be overwhelmed by them. Sure, you can beat a single condi user but it’s when you get multiple where it doesn’t matter how much removal you have because it will eventually run dry. If you have Stability you are safe from control so long as it isn’t stripped. You can cleanse a condition but outside of 8 seconds of Zerker Stance it’s going to come right back. It’s especially bad with Burngineers. “Oh, you got rid of that burn? Here have another.”

How is this any different against any other build type? You Aegis that Kill Shot, and now you have a bunch of mesmer clones running to you for a shatter. Dodge that, and now you’ve got an Ele using RTL to you.

Any time you get more opponents, it becomes easier to get overwhelmed. Their builds mean jack in relation to that fact.

BurrTheKing.8571:

You do not generally NEED to spec into having tons of stun breaks/stability to beat control heavy builds

Riiiiiigghht. And the flood of hammer stun warriors and guardians doesn’t exist either right?

You recently stated

BurrTheKing.8571:

There’s a portion of the forum community that will never view Warriors as “balanced” until they can win against them 100% of the time.

Yet, this seems to be your stance about condition damage. This doesn’t represent much of congruent level of perspective on your part. This is particularly evident here, when you suggest having anti-stun abilities, is not needed against, for example, a hammer warrior.

dancingmonkey.4902:

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power.

Exactly. This is the point exactly. You chose not to specialize away from heavy direct damage, then complain and that the disadvantage to your build should be specifically nerfed or that it is over powered after you chose not to counter it in your build.

So if I rune melandru runes, generosity/purity sigil, and rune around destroying condition roamers in WvW in 1v1 fights, then by Burrtheking and others own definition, clearly stuns and direct damage are extremely over powered.

Should all go and spam make threads about how direct damage builds are over powered, and that soldiers gear needs to be nerfed because it is too much damage, for the amount of armor/health compared to an anti-condition build ?? It seems to me to be the logic of most of the claimers here that there is some issue with conditions.

Do you even READ what I post? I’m talking about conditions in TEAM FIGHTS. A Guardian can keep your team safe from Hammer using AoE Stability because the best skills are on longer CDs. There’s no build that can deal with unblockable AoE conditions that are reapplied constantly. There are more ways to totally mitigate power damage than there are for Conditions. Even if you cleanse conditions it still did damage to you because chances are it ticked at least once. Meanwhile, if I block an Evis or a Backstab it didn’t do any damage to me.

EDIT: What? I’m fine with condition damage existing. The game would be boring if there was just one way to deal damage. What I don’t like is how you can remain tanky while still dishing out damage (see the build posted earlier). With Settler’s gear 2 out of the 3 stats are defensive, the only thing I’m losing out on is a few bleed stacks from crit that hardly affects me. While running DPS if I lack in either Power, Precision, or Ferocity I’m going to lose DPS in some way. My condi Warrior gives up much, much less than my DPS Axe Warrior if I want sustain. Also, I’m talking about PvP, not the mess that is WvW. In PvP there’s no Lemongrass and there isn’t tons of players all on screen. Keep WvW out of this because it has no place in a balance discussion. Try running a 4 Hammer Warrior and a Hammer Guard in PvP and see how well you do.

@Drarnor All of those things you mentioned either have long casts or obvious tells. Not to mention you can use a skill to go invulnerable, you a longer block, what have you. AoE Conditions, especially bombs, sit on the ground and linger on a tiny capture point. Step off the point and they can decap or deny you the cap. These Engis are also tough and take at least 2-3 people to kill in a decent time frame. A bunker Guardian will survive for a long time but they don’t have ANYWHERE near the damage that tanky coni builds do. You still need the Guardian for mid fights but it’s hard to have better home guard than a condi user.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Just curious, what do Condi builds give up exactly? If anti-condi builds ONLY work against condi classes and weak to everything else. What exactly does Condi give up when they go that route? Nothing.

Fast kill speed, which means they are slower to take capture points. They also generally sacrifice mobility (even condition thieves are considerably less mobile on average) and have the disadvantage that their assault can be more easily survived, as you can kill them, then heal/cleanse.

Ah, so you are viewing this from a S/TPvP viewpoint? I am thinking of only WvW. S/TPvP is rather stale and boring, for me at least so that mode has no interest to me. Which makes it rather annoying that Anet insists on trying (and failing) to balance the whole game around the least played mode in the game, all in the hope of it becoming something that it wont be – an eSport

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

By “full anti-condi” i mean taking EVERYTHING you can to counter conditions – traits, runes, sigils, food. everything.

And what are you doing to counter the condi necromancer ?

If you only have bleeding – you are not a condi necro.

hmm …

BurrTheKing.8571:

EDIT: What? I’m fine with condition damage existing. The game would be boring if there was just one way to deal damage. What I don’t like is how you can remain tanky while still dishing out damage (see the build posted earlier). With Settler’s gear 2 out of the 3 stats are defensive, the only thing I’m losing out on is a few bleed stacks from crit that hardly affects me. While running DPS if I lack in either Power, Precision, or Ferocity I’m going to lose DPS in some way. My condi Warrior gives up much, much less than my DPS Axe Warrior if I want sustain. Also, I’m talking about PvP, not the mess that is WvW. In PvP there’s no Lemongrass and there isn’t tons of players all on screen. Keep WvW out of this because it has no place in a balance discussion. Try running a 4 Hammer Warrior and a Hammer Guard in PvP and see how well you do.

The problem is that you fail to realize that direct damage builds can literally do as much or more damage. There are as many builds out there with clerics gear that are as defensive as settlers and do as much or more damage. As well, there are many soldiers gear builds that do as much as any dire build in damage. There are as many builds with knights gear that do more damage then rabid gear builds.

This debate has gone on for some time. There have been too many damage comparisons and videos posting the damage comparisons. Your making claims without taking the effort to offer any proof

By the way, how does WvW not have anything to do with this? Did you not read the OP ?? Does the thread title say (PvP) ?? If you look at the original post, they very specifically discuss WvW. Sorry pal, but last I checked, you were not a moderator with the power to determine forums topics and discussions. If you wish to discuss this outside of the scope of the threads designated topic, post on one of the many threads designated for PvP. This may be a shock, but we even have a sub forum devoted to PvP discussions.

BurrTheKing.8571:

in TEAM FIGHTS. A Guardian can keep your team safe from Hammer using AoE Stability because the best skills are on longer CDs. There’s no build that can deal with unblockable AoE conditions that are reapplied constantly..

You mean like the Fumigate skill from engineer that clears up to 15 condition in a conal AoE that I use in zerg fights? Guardians save yourselves? Healing springs? Cleansing flames? I can list AoE cleanses for days.

BurrTheKing.8571:

What I don’t like is how you can remain tanky while still dishing out damage (see the build posted earlier). With Settler’s gear 2 out of the 3 stats are defensive, the only thing I’m losing out on is a few bleed stacks from crit that hardly affects me. While running DPS if I lack in either Power, Precision, or Ferocity I’m going to lose DPS in some way. My condi Warrior gives up much, much less than my DPS Axe Warrior if I want sustain.

I do not understand your point. I have yet to see you or anyone else here even come close to do showing in any way that condition builds out damage condition builds. Yet in the previous threads on this topic, evidence in forms of damage comparisons and videos show very much the opposite of your claims.

If you payed attention to any of the previous threads, one thing is very clear. Everyone is very aware that in team fights, that conditions are neutered to nothing. This is why they are generally considered next to useless in large fights in WvW. At least with players who display awareness.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Keep WvW out of this because it has no place in a balance discussion.

Ego trip much???

Sorry, but as it is already been mentioned. The OP specifically discusses WvW. The creater of the thread designates is topic. Not you.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Wait, Shimmerless, are you suggesting that we start using damage comparison numbers and actual facts with numerical values for arguments on this thread now?

If so, I would really like to see your thoughts on how conditions as a whole are over powered compared to direct damage skills. Seems a bit out of sorts to see you criticize anothers numbers when you have not offered us any at this point.

Personally, It seemed to me, that common sense would dictate that he was simply making a point about the other poster mentioning spamming all of the skills, then that would be a good time to use a cleanse. I never did see where ash mentioned using any cleanses.

You’re not off to a good start, since his “8 – 20 seconds downtime” figure was apparently made up out of thin air.

shimmerless.4560:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Wait, Shimmerless, are you suggesting that we start using damage comparison numbers and actual facts with numerical values for arguments on this thread now?

If so, I would really like to see your thoughts on how conditions as a whole are over powered compared to direct damage skills. Seems a bit out of sorts to see you criticize anothers numbers when you have not offered us any at this point.

Personally, It seemed to me, that common sense would dictate that he was simply making a point about the other poster mentioning spamming all of the skills, then that would be a good time to use a cleanse. I never did see where ash mentioned using any cleanses.

You’re not off to a good start, since his “8 – 20 seconds downtime” figure was apparently made up out of thin air.

Not exactly. If a mesmer bursts (either power or condition), that’s about the amount of time they have to wait before putting out significant damage again.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Just curious, what do Condi builds give up exactly? If anti-condi builds ONLY work against condi classes and weak to everything else. What exactly does Condi give up when they go that route? Nothing.

Fast kill speed, which means they are slower to take capture points. They also generally sacrifice mobility (even condition thieves are considerably less mobile on average) and have the disadvantage that their assault can be more easily survived, as you can kill them, then heal/cleanse.

Ah, so you are viewing this from a S/TPvP viewpoint? I am thinking of only WvW. S/TPvP is rather stale and boring, for me at least so that mode has no interest to me. Which makes it rather annoying that Anet insists on trying (and failing) to balance the whole game around the least played mode in the game, all in the hope of it becoming something that it wont be – an eSport

Not only SPvP. Only the first of my points had to do with SPvP specifically. Conditions are also much more single-target oriented because of the wealth of AoE cleansing in the game. Yeah, seems really weird, given that condition application is frequently AoE as well, but that’s how it works.

Yup. As the untraited staff is 10s-35s of cool down on its skills, and the post was replying to a staff attacks specifically, It seems like a reasonable comment in my opinion.

I mean, if someone disagrees, you would think they would offer the counter argument or something of that nature.

@people You can’t balance WvW. Food, gear differences, and PvE elements make the number of variables so large it’ll always be chaos. Since ANet doesn’t want to split the game and balance each separately that means PvP should (and from what we can tell, does) take priority because it actually has a chance at being balanced. It has nothing to do with ego.

I do post proof, go try that Warrior build I posted. First hand experience is the best proof.

You mean this link you put in the earlier post?

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m going to post a build here that I would like those defending conditions to try:

Here it is

Not sure what a Spanish oral exam has to do with your argument, but….umm……thats where the link took me anyway.

Anyway, I agree they should invest more in balancing PvP entirely separately. They have already done this in many cases. I disagree that PvP should take priority. And do not claim telling the entire opposing argument posters they have no business posting here when the original post and all conversation after, clearly discuss WvW is not ego. You have no place insisting you can change the topic at your whim, there are plenty of topics on that subject already..

dancingmonkey.4902:

You mean this link you put in the earlier post?

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m going to post a build here that I would like those defending conditions to try:

Here it is

Not sure what a Spanish oral exam has to do with your argument, but….umm……thats where the link took me anyway.

Anyway, I agree they should invest more in balancing PvP entirely separately. They have already done this in many cases. I disagree that PvP should take priority. And do not claim telling the entire opposing argument posters they have no business posting here when the original post and all conversation after, clearly discuss WvW is not ego. You have no place insisting you can change the topic at your whim, there are plenty of topics on that subject already..

HAHA! That’s something a friend asked me to check over for him and I accidentally copy/pasted wrong. Give me a min and I’ll fix it.. That actually a funny mistake.

EDIT: Fixed now, here it is

Also, OP DID mention PvP if you didn’t notice, so the conversation was never changed. I just focued on what I view as the most salvageable game mode balance wise.

EDIT 2: Now I have to explain how the video got 28 views when it’s private…it’s still funny.

Yeah, I got a the same thing. Either way, what does linking a build have to do with anything? Wouldn’t someone have to play it as you want and with your level of skill, to even come close to getting your point? That seems a bit moot to me.

As for what should take priority, I sure as heck do not thing it should be PvP. I think at best, they should push the splitting of balance, and give them equal billing.

As well, it seems to me to be even more egotistical to tell us what we are or are not allowed to discuss here, and telling us the game mode that has the smallest player base by far, should take precedence over all other, does not help you there.

Anyway, asking other to play a build is no where near evidence. Evidence is, at least, comparing the damage out put of one build to another, or their defensive capabilities or making videos to display such things. Not links to Spanish oral exams.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, OP DID mention PvP if you didn’t notice, so the conversation was never changed. I just focued on what I view as the most salvageable game mode balance wise.

No one said he didn’t mention PvP. You simply told us that we were required to keep WvW out of the discussion. I can quote you if you forgot.

So you guys think conditions are balanced, eh? Lets throw some numbers, shall we? Pick your typical condibunker engineer with Balth Runes + Incendiary Powder. Equip your Doom Sigil and then use one single auto attack (if it crits, and that easy). Count your total damage and you’ll find you are doing 6k+ if it’s not clean.

Asomal.6453:

So you guys think conditions are balanced, eh? Lets throw some numbers, shall we? Pick your typical condibunker engineer with Balth Runes + Incendiary Powder. Equip your Doom Sigil and then use one single auto attack (if it crits, and that easy). Count your total damage and you’ll find you are doing 6k+ if it’s not clean.

Lol really? That’s weak very weak.

Let a direct damage thief stand there and auto attack the target in the same time it takes for that 6k damage to happen and see who does more damage, lets give him a sigil of air to match your doom, give him 1 damage modifier to match incendiary powder, give him whatever power runes you want. DOT =/= direct damage. It’s called direct damage for a reason.

Your example is bad because you think they are comparable damage types. That’s like saying healing and toughness are the same thing and comparing them based on which keeps you alive on their own when toughness is the same across the board and healing is ability specific. Since they both are considered in the “Defense” category you can compare them easily with a 2k healing power vs 2k armor comparison.

BurrTheKing.8571:

This build’s power comes less from the Warrior class and more from the fact that I can deal the damage that I can while remaining tanky

YES it comes from the fact its a Warrior. A Warrior gets a massive amount of vitality and toughness for free.

I put vitality or toughness on every piece of gear. 1/3th of my stats are dedicated towards either toughness or vitality.
And yet this character still has less health and armour, then my full zerker Warrior. So hell yes it has to do with it being a Warrior.

Terrahero.9358:

YES it comes from the fact its a Warrior. A Warrior gets a massive amount of vitality and toughness for free.

920 vs 1064 vs 1211 for full set. Really massive, oh my.

Rednik.3809:

Terrahero.9358:

YES it comes from the fact its a Warrior. A Warrior gets a massive amount of vitality and toughness for free.

920 vs 1064 vs 1211 for full set. Really massive, oh my.

Yan, I really get tired of people saying heavy armor is such a huge advantage when it’s more about gear choices than anything else. A Zerker War is still going to be significantly squishier than a Soldier Necro. Not to mention as usual they conveniently forget to cut out all the sustain mechanics Warriors lack. Let’s take away the Warrior’s base states, make them equal to a light class, and then give them access to stealth and protection to compensate. Maybe give them offhand Torch with a 10 second CD blind field so they can be more like the ever skillful Thief.

Juba.8406:

anyone with half a brain knows that condis are an issue in WvW roaming.

You said it yourself ;p

Remove dire stat and give all that have that gear a change to pick new gear for game balance,problem solved you cant be super tanky and dps like a boss