Guild Wars 2

NinjaEd.3946:

@ Brando, All that video showed was how simple warriors are (speaking of the second video). Notice #2 warrior was able to cc spam you, he clearly knew how bad necro stun breakers are and used it to his advantage to wiggle you down. I don’t think you were playing glassy, so it took awhile but when you are a sitting duck there ain’t much to it. Warrior #1 was also GS hammer, you really going to use him as an example?

What I was showing with those 2 clips was how players can beat condi classes and we are not “OP” since we can be beaten (and beaten badly).
Yes I will use warrior #1 as an example of how some just refuse to adapt to the enemy they are facing them I assume they will come here and make more threads complaining about the “condi meta” or how they should nerf conditions because it does too much damage.

NinjaEd.3946:

NevirSayDie.6235:

NinjaEd.3946:

Also food has no place in pvp, which is another place that has problems with condi spam.

Well not really—condition builds have seen some nerfs and PvPers have in general figured out how to deal with them. That’s not to say there aren’t some unfortunate builds still remaining: mace/sword-longbow warrior is ridiculously strong in duels, for example. Turret engineers sometimes use conditions, and they are an unfortunate plague on solo arena and pug team arenas atm.

But in standard team or solo arenas, things like scepter/dagger-staff condimancer have been figured out. They don’t wreck people any more; in fact, they’re barely good enough to compete.

I haven’t played much WvW recently so maybe p/d thieves and PU mesmers are still running rampant there. That’s more a flaw with open-world PvP than conditions, though. You could cut condition damage in half and those builds would still wreck new players in WvW because they can’t be pinned down.

In tpvp whether its power or condition (although power tends to work better in groups due to condi cap), all I see is AoE spam. I watched 1.5hours of the EU ToL and probably an hour of the NA ToL and was not impressed. First off the spectators were kittens, always monitoring the hambow or altruistic guardian and rarely ever panning to the others, and secondly it was just a pile up at mid over and over. People weren’t doing side objectives, they weren’t back capping, it was just a duel at mid. If this is how tourny’s were supposed to play out then just make death match and be done with it.

I don’t roam nearly as much as pvp, but I still have gone out there and seen a huge difference between playing a power and condi spec as well as fighting against power and/or condi spec’s. Conditions were far more lethal because I couldn’t burst them down (built more defense) and on mine I was never near risk unless it was a zerg incoming in which I would Chain CnD off ambient creatures and gtfo. In pvp I can deal with condition builds on most of my builds but there are a few who put them out way to easily and frequently that even timing my condi removal does nothing. Often I just move to another objective because it’s a waste of my time.

I mentioned that in regular old run-of-the-mill solo and team arenas, things like condi necromancer have been figured out and usually get destroyed now. I’m not even talking about top players, just regular arenas. At the top level, of course, there are even fewer condition builds. Not sure if that’s what you meant by bringing up ToL.

Sounds like the worst that ever happens to you in a duel vs. a condition build is that you might get into a stalemate. That doesn’t sound too OP now, does it?

NevirSayDie.6235:

NinjaEd.3946:

NevirSayDie.6235:

NinjaEd.3946:

Also food has no place in pvp, which is another place that has problems with condi spam.

Well not really—condition builds have seen some nerfs and PvPers have in general figured out how to deal with them. That’s not to say there aren’t some unfortunate builds still remaining: mace/sword-longbow warrior is ridiculously strong in duels, for example. Turret engineers sometimes use conditions, and they are an unfortunate plague on solo arena and pug team arenas atm.

But in standard team or solo arenas, things like scepter/dagger-staff condimancer have been figured out. They don’t wreck people any more; in fact, they’re barely good enough to compete.

I haven’t played much WvW recently so maybe p/d thieves and PU mesmers are still running rampant there. That’s more a flaw with open-world PvP than conditions, though. You could cut condition damage in half and those builds would still wreck new players in WvW because they can’t be pinned down.

In tpvp whether its power or condition (although power tends to work better in groups due to condi cap), all I see is AoE spam. I watched 1.5hours of the EU ToL and probably an hour of the NA ToL and was not impressed. First off the spectators were kittens, always monitoring the hambow or altruistic guardian and rarely ever panning to the others, and secondly it was just a pile up at mid over and over. People weren’t doing side objectives, they weren’t back capping, it was just a duel at mid. If this is how tourny’s were supposed to play out then just make death match and be done with it.

I don’t roam nearly as much as pvp, but I still have gone out there and seen a huge difference between playing a power and condi spec as well as fighting against power and/or condi spec’s. Conditions were far more lethal because I couldn’t burst them down (built more defense) and on mine I was never near risk unless it was a zerg incoming in which I would Chain CnD off ambient creatures and gtfo. In pvp I can deal with condition builds on most of my builds but there are a few who put them out way to easily and frequently that even timing my condi removal does nothing. Often I just move to another objective because it’s a waste of my time.

I mentioned that in regular old run-of-the-mill solo and team arenas, things like condi necromancer have been figured out and usually get destroyed now. I’m not even talking about top players, just regular arenas. At the top level, of course, there are even fewer condition builds. Not sure if that’s what you meant by bringing up ToL.

Sounds like the worst that ever happens to you in a duel vs. a condition build is that you might get into a stalemate. That doesn’t sound too OP now, does it?

Not op, no. Never suggested they were op, but the risk/reward of using them isn’t right in my eyes. If they were op I’d suggest nerfing them and their durations and buffing condition removal to the point where conditions became irrelevant. Even in an earlier post (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/pvp-Toughness-Vs-Vitality/first#post4044916) I may of stepped a bit over suggesting condition builds are everywhere but never once suggested conditions be nerfed. I don’t want them nerfed, I just want them to be more thoughtful and less button smashing. I’ve been melted by conditions far more than I’ve been spiked by power bursts, and that’s me focusing more condition removal than toughness. I know what the skills look like, but there are only so many dodges/blocks/teleports in the game to avoid soaking up long term DoT.

On a side note, torment seems like the most ridiculous condition, when I hear statements like, “limit movement till they wear off”. I think a sitting duck is far more vulnerable than a bleeding limping one. Who ever thought a fast paced game should have a parameter against mobility should have a brick dropped on their foot.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Conditions do have counterplay to them. Firstly, condition applying attacks are rarely superior to regular power attacks, so they can be dodged, blocked, evaded, blinded, countered by stun, etc. Second, conditions have cleanses. Third and most dangerous, there are classes that can transfer conditions, which is arguably the most powerful counter in the game. It literally transfers all remaining damage of an attack to someone else.

Dodging, evading etc also applies to Power builds.
Yes conditions have cleanses, but often you need to sacrifice a large portion of Power damage if you want to obtain these.
Also, there aren’t many transfer abilities available.

Zach.3264:

Dodging, evading etc also applies to Power builds.
Yes conditions have cleanses, but often you need to sacrifice a large portion of Power damage if you want to obtain these.
Also, there aren’t many transfer abilities available.

Hence, they have almost all the counterplay of a power build (dodging, invulns, blocks, etc.) but also the counterplay of conditions (removal, -duration). You have to give up offense to stop power builds from wrecking you, why should this not be true of condition builds?

The only issue here is if there is a disparity between how easily accessed this defense is relative to its strength.

NinjaEd.3946:

babazhook.6805:

I play condition builds and power builds.

They both involve pushing buttons. There no real difference between pushing 5 11 1 2 on a power build and pushing 1 1 1 2 5 on a condition build. The number 2 or 3 or 4 is not harder to press then pressing 1 and 1 an d 1 and 5. They are just keyboard strokes.

As to 8 seconds of a condition off the auto attack. How is that different then my getting 3k in damage off my auto attack in a power build. Why is the latter “more complicated” or more skill full?

Well then you likely die a lot, considering you get 3k auto attack and and press 2-5 at random times. 3k auto attack means you invested a lot into power and critical hits which could mean 2 or 3 stats used up for your damage. Many builds only need condition damage because traits/sigils can be enough to maintain high condition duration so yes, investing so little for 8 second bleeding auto attacks is different from going full glass cannon. You ever press deathly swarm on a necro just because? If so I don’t value your opinion.

NinjaEd.3946:

Not op, no. Never suggested they were op, but the risk/reward of using them isn’t right in my eyes. If they were op I’d suggest nerfing them and their durations and buffing condition removal to the point where conditions became irrelevant. Even in an earlier post (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/pvp-Toughness-Vs-Vitality/first#post4044916) I may of stepped a bit over suggesting condition builds are everywhere but never once suggested conditions be nerfed. I don’t want them nerfed, I just want them to be more thoughtful and less button smashing. I’ve been melted by conditions far more than I’ve been spiked by power bursts, and that’s me focusing more condition removal than toughness. I know what the skills look like, but there are only so many dodges/blocks/teleports in the game to avoid soaking up long term DoT.

On a side note, torment seems like the most ridiculous condition, when I hear statements like, “limit movement till they wear off”. I think a sitting duck is far more vulnerable than a bleeding limping one. Who ever thought a fast paced game should have a parameter against mobility should have a brick dropped on their foot.

Risk/reward is a strange concept to bring up when you just said you either beat condi builds or just disengage from them. That sounds suspiciously like a very low-risk build.

On the other hand, condi necro is an ultra-high-risk build at the moment. Very little mobility, very few get-out-of-jail-free cards, no blocks, no vigor. If a necro is out of position, he dies, period. There is no “oops, that was dumb but I guess I’m still okay.” I don’t even play necro regularly, but if you think it’s just button mashing, you should give it a try.

There are some condition specs that could be considered brainless just because of the way the build is set up, like PU mesmer. That’s a fault of the build, not conditions in general.

I agree that there are only so many defensive abilities and cleanses before you will go down to a condition build. That’s why you have to kill them first. Healing/cleansing should never be able to keep up with heavy sustained dps.

>>You ever press deathly swarm on a necro just because? If so I don’t value your opinion.

I personally do not care whose opinion you value. It does not take anymore skill to press buttons on a power build then on a condition build.

My thief has ZERO invested in power line. His autoattack from his pistol does 1.4k damage. How is this considered skillful if pressed over and over again while pressing an autoattack for the bleeds on a condition build is “just button mashing”.?

My warrior has zero invested in Strength and has an attack of 2200. He gets 340 power just based on a trait called “Armored Attack” . How is choosing that trait more skillful then wearing dire and traiting in shadow arts?

There are warrior builds galore that do not even trait for strength or Critical strikes yet are still very effective. Why is that “skillful” ? they still press buttons when they fight, Just because they are different buttons does not mean it more “complicated”.

Pressing buttons is pressing buttons . it is not harder because one does condition damage and one does power damage.

Ones timing and when to do what might take a bit of practice but it no different in a condition build then in a power build. Condition builds still have to dodge. They still have to time their stealths if a thief. They still have to use all of their skills to maximize the chances of survival.

If they have more armor it more forgiving but wearing more armor does not preclude one from doing damage And a warrior with nothing in the strength trait line can still lay out a lot of damage even without going conditions. As can a lot of other classes.

babazhook.6805:

>>You ever press deathly swarm on a necro just because? If so I don’t value your opinion.

I personally do not care whose opinion you value. It does not take anymore skill to press buttons on a power build then on a condition build.

My thief has ZERO invested in power line. His autoattack from his pistol does 1.4k damage. How is this considered skillful if pressed over and over again while pressing an autoattack for the bleeds on a condition build is “just button mashing”.?

My warrior has zero invested in Strength and has an attack of 2200. He gets 340 power just based on a trait called “Armored Attack” . How is choosing that trait more skillful then wearing dire and traiting in shadow arts?

There are warrior builds galore that do not even trait for strength or Critical strikes yet are still very effective. Why is that “skillful” ? they still press buttons when they fight, Just because they are different buttons does not mean it more “complicated”.

Pressing buttons is pressing buttons . it is not harder because one does condition damage and one does power damage.

Ones timing and when to do what might take a bit of practice but it no different in a condition build then in a power build. Condition builds still have to dodge. They still have to time their stealths if a thief. They still have to use all of their skills to maximize the chances of survival.

If they have more armor it more forgiving but wearing more armor does not preclude one from doing damage And a warrior with nothing in the strength trait line can still lay out a lot of damage even without going conditions. As can a lot of other classes.

No point skill in GW2 is >2.5k armor that is all you need to be considered skillful basically be a thief. Everything else isn’t skill so basically any build that has more then 2.5k armor. If you bunker your obviously not skilled you need to be pushing almost full zerker and who gets away with zerker better then anyone? Thieves and mesmers. So if you want to be skilled and still do condis you need to put on rampagers.

Skill is determined by how fast you can possibly die and if you don’t and kill then you have skill. That is how we measure skill in GW2.

In my eyes the bigger problem is the fact that condi builds are just naturally able to sustain themselves better. Think about it, with direct damage you have to risk getting hit to deal damage and get in there. With conditions you can passively deal damage while staying away from the opponent. Also, with conditions you don’t have to worry about as many stats, allowing for much tankier builds. This is one of the problems. Dealing very high condition burst while not taking much damage. Low risk, high reward.

babazhook.6805:

>>You ever press deathly swarm on a necro just because? If so I don’t value your opinion.

I personally do not care whose opinion you value. It does not take anymore skill to press buttons on a power build then on a condition build.

My thief has ZERO invested in power line. His autoattack from his pistol does 1.4k damage. How is this considered skillful if pressed over and over again while pressing an autoattack for the bleeds on a condition build is “just button mashing”.?

My warrior has zero invested in Strength and has an attack of 2200. He gets 340 power just based on a trait called “Armored Attack” . How is choosing that trait more skillful then wearing dire and traiting in shadow arts?

There are warrior builds galore that do not even trait for strength or Critical strikes yet are still very effective. Why is that “skillful” ? they still press buttons when they fight, Just because they are different buttons does not mean it more “complicated”.

Pressing buttons is pressing buttons . it is not harder because one does condition damage and one does power damage.

Ones timing and when to do what might take a bit of practice but it no different in a condition build then in a power build. Condition builds still have to dodge. They still have to time their stealths if a thief. They still have to use all of their skills to maximize the chances of survival.

If they have more armor it more forgiving but wearing more armor does not preclude one from doing damage And a warrior with nothing in the strength trait line can still lay out a lot of damage even without going conditions. As can a lot of other classes.

Except button smashing on a power build doesn’t amount to much excluding the few builds that are plaguing all of pvp partly due to strength runes being far to easy of a solution. Power builds pack a big kick and then it’s just tap dancing with them till it reoccurs, condition builds you put on some conditions and just use the aa to sit back and play it safe. Button smashing on a glass build is light years from button smashing a condi build.

If you button smash on all builds then stay in 8v8 hot join matches, but don’t take that mentality elsewhere especially if you’re going to argue balance. Condition builds are easier to run than power builds in general as far as offense goes. There are a small few exceptions but that’s mostly due to strength runes and the ferocity change which unfortunately made critical damage traits and runes less relevant when the zerker amulet got a buff (went from 20% critical damage to 30% since 300 ferocity didn’t equal 30% critical damage like it used to)

NinjaEd.3946:

Except button smashing on a power build doesn’t amount to much excluding the few builds that are plaguing all of pvp partly due to strength runes being far to easy of a solution. Power builds pack a big kick and then it’s just tap dancing with them till it reoccurs, condition builds you put on some conditions and just use the aa to sit back and play it safe. Button smashing on a glass build is light years from button smashing a condi build.

If you button smash on all builds then stay in 8v8 hot join matches, but don’t take that mentality elsewhere especially if you’re going to argue balance. Condition builds are easier to run than power builds in general as far as offense goes. There are a small few exceptions but that’s mostly due to strength runes and the ferocity change which unfortunately made critical damage traits and runes less relevant when the zerker amulet got a buff (went from 20% critical damage to 30% since 300 ferocity didn’t equal 30% critical damage like it used to)

This assumes the power user is doing nothing but trying to blow everything then twiddle thumbs until he can blow everything again. That is bad and that is burst and works on bad people, totally forgetting about sustained damage, which is where the weaker attacks come into play aka auto attacks.

Thieves with a bow are notorious for doing this they soften the target with bow auto attacks pressure you from afar and then when you blow dodges, important cooldowns or are low enough they weapon swap and open kitten you. This can and should be used by every direct damage build just in different ways mesmers with a GS do the same thing, .. If you don’t use auto attacks for pressure and only rely on the heavy hitting skills and that works then you aren’t playing very good players or you are a ele or power engi with alot of skills to go through.

Thieves definitely can make use of auto pressure probably better then anyone since it does damage and saves ini, and probably keeps their damage high with traits for extra damage over X ini or deal 1% damage per ini.

oZii.2864:

No point skill in GW2 is >2.5k armor that is all you need to be considered skillful basically be a thief. Everything else isn’t skill so basically any build that has more then 2.5k armor. If you bunker your obviously not skilled you need to be pushing almost full zerker and who gets away with zerker better then anyone? Thieves and mesmers. So if you want to be skilled and still do condis you need to put on rampagers.

Skill is determined by how fast you can possibly die and if you don’t and kill then you have skill. That is how we measure skill in GW2.

I disagree. Skill is how hard a build is to use. That’s not necessarily tied to armor if you can evade for days, block for days, lots of teleports, etc. etc. It also depends on your opponent’s build and how well that naturally counters yours. It’s far more than just your hp/armor.

This game is horribly balanced for skill though. Far too many builds are better and easier to use at the same time. They keep buffing ai and passives which pushes it further towards this. Why? Idk. Basic game design tells you to do the opposite of these things.

It’s not just PvP either, PvE is the same way. Why bother with a harder dungeon when you can just go farm easier ones and gain more. It’s a problem that been with this game for a long time and I don’t see it going away anytime soon unfortunately.

MithranArkanere.8957:

We really need autobalance measures.

….
- Short condition immunity on condition removal. A skill removes bleed, you get 1-2 second bleed immunity. …

Also applies invulnerability after healing?

NinjaEd.3946:

I don’t agree with Kharr but the fact that we have a 5% direct damage sigil bonus kinda speaks for itself that power needs some bonuses to do anything worth mentioning.

There’s a +6% condition damage sigil, that suggests condition damage needs +6% where power damage can do with +5% …

frans.8092:

Also applies invulnerability after healing?

I think the correct auto-balance measure against burst damage – which really, is a much larger issue to PvP balance than whatever measly tick conditions tick for, I wonder whether anyone complaining here ever did any real PvP or whether they just 1v1 roam in WvW… – would be to grant immunity to damage when you are CCed. In any way, Immobilize, Daze, Stun, anything.

Can’t be bursted down without being able to retaliate, basically.

frans.8092:

NinjaEd.3946:

I don’t agree with Kharr but the fact that we have a 5% direct damage sigil bonus kinda speaks for itself that power needs some bonuses to do anything worth mentioning.

There’s a +6% condition damage sigil, that suggests condition damage needs +6% where power damage can do with +5% …

Obviously precision is the winner here since it gets 7%

frans.8092:

NinjaEd.3946:

I don’t agree with Kharr but the fact that we have a 5% direct damage sigil bonus kinda speaks for itself that power needs some bonuses to do anything worth mentioning.

There’s a +6% condition damage sigil, that suggests condition damage needs +6% where power damage can do with +5% …

Just one issue: Sigil of Bursting is 6% to the stat, not the actual damage. For every 1k condition damage, you get 3 damage/bleed tick, 6 damage/poison tick, and 15 per burning tick.

Unless the feature pack changed it. I actually sold mine then.

That’s pve/wvw exclusive, I mean you get dire stats and perplex runes in there. It’s hardly worth mentioning how kitten it is in there. Pvp gets special treatment on a lot of skills and traits, and in there, no sigil of bursting exists.

The fact that some classes can just spam out Conditions without having to decide which conditions they are is testament to the ill-thought out nature of said classes and this type of gameplay.

I question the competence of it’s creators.

Svarty.8019:

The fact that some classes can just spam out Conditions without having to decide which conditions they are is testament to the ill-thought out nature of said classes and this type of gameplay.

I question the competence of it’s creators.

Why do you make such an over the top effort to make your implication?

You go out of your way to use the word “spam” before every condition. Find me one power build in which direct damage cannot be spammed effortlessly???

It is a fact that conditions are precisely as counter playable as direct damage. If you care to list all of the condition damage skills that you feel do not have a tell to give them counter play, please do. For each one you list, I will list 2 direct damage skills with the same problem.

You post as if this thread is advising us of some ground breaking information that no one was aware of. In truth, some johnny come lately spams the forums one a week with the same mis-information the OP offered to this thread.

The facts are, direct damage builds can build with the same defense as condi builds and they actually put out more damage. Bothe damage types have similar counter play. Condi damage has the disadvantage of cleanses, while direct damage has the disadvantage of toughness. Condi damage has the disadvantage of taking exponentially longer then direct damage attacks to apply the exact same damage.

In you feel the order of skill use in a condi builds requires less thought then the order of skill use in direct damage build, then you are not all to skilled of a player yourself in my opinion.

Svarty.8019:

The fact that some classes can just spam out Conditions without having to decide which conditions they are is testament to the ill-thought out nature of said classes and this type of gameplay.

I question the competence of it’s creators.

In return, how about you give us your credentials then? I mean, if we’re supposed to trust your opinion, despite the game disagreeing with it, better present some evidence that you would be correct, or make a useful argument.

Instead of, you know, blindly fielding a statement with no support or evidence, and then attacking the devs over it.

Hey, I can do something similar:
Conditions are rubbish in PvP and need a sizeable buff. At the very least, they need to be incurable. Direct Damage is too difficult to dodge and conditions too easy, plus the removal and the way they don’t kill anyone in time.
Come on ANet, fix it!

See? Just as little support, but sounds just as useful as your take.

>>In my eyes the bigger problem is the fact that condi builds are just naturally able to sustain themselves better

Why can people not see that this is NOT a problem? It is HOW IT MUST BE.

If a person is using a condition build they must have greater sustain or they will die before they can build the stacks needed to inflict enough damage to defeat an opponent. It is damage over time so they need more time to do damage.

The reason direct damage types sacrifice sustain is because they can KILL FASTER and if the enemy is dead they do not need that sustain.

People just repeat this stuff about “more sustain” over and over again without thinking about what they are saying.

In my P/P build I can get 4+ 6k unloads off in a few seconds. It a power build with little sustain. I count on downing the enemy before I get in any sort of trouble.

I do not have THAT luxury with a p/d set traited for conditions. I need to survive a LONG time.

>>The fact that some classes can just spam out Conditions without having to decide which conditions they are is testament to the ill-thought out nature of said classes and this type of gameplay.

This is more nonsense. There ARE types of conditions. There are not types of direct damage. So direct damage users need only select one TYPE of damage and that somehow makes it harder and more skilled?

No good condi user just mindlessly spams different types of conditions. They do time them for when they will be most effective and watch the enemy for when he uses his cleanses.

All condition builds are different just like direct damage a mesmer condi build, thief condi build, engi condi build, necromancer condition build all perform differently. It’s obvious with in seconds that playing a engi condi build is totally different then playing a necromancer condition build.

A direct damage build might have 1 attack that does 5k and another doing 3k while another has an attack that does 6k and 2k. They are both using direct damage stats and their 1-5 are putting out different numbers. We don’t lump all direct damage builds together for some strange reason. A necromancer has a fear doing 1k a tick a mesmer doesn’t have this or any other condi build. The Mesmer is putting out burns with staff auto the Thief isn’t putting out burns unless he has on balthazaar runes. The list goes on and on in the differences in builds but some how condition builds are 1 in the same but direct damage builds are not.

That is why this argument is rather amusing.

The question really is will the devs look at condition damage and tinker with burns, bleeds, torment, terror, chill, etc in a blanket against that damage type or would they just tinker with the class/classes that people claim to be overperforming with that damage type? The more likely scenario is that class will be affected. The anti-condition side appears to just clump all the condition builds together so there is no identifying which condition build on which class they think is overperforming. So this anti-condition argument is basically going no where.

To many generalities and not enough specifics pointing what build on what class. Calling out condition builds ability to sustain means you think the traits need to be adjusted which in turn means direct damage build will be affected too as an example.

If you have a problem with a specific build and think it needs to be changed in some way call out that build on that class. Generalizing all condition builds under 1 umbrella doesn’t really do anything except make it appear as if you don’t know what the problem is or if there is even one to begin with.

coglin.1867:

Kharr.5746:

The problem with conditions has, and will always be, the fact that they bypass toughness, protection, and weakness. It’s possible to do very high condition damage while having very high toughness thanks to rabid stats.

This means that power builds are useless against you since toughness reduces power damage significantly, plus you can usually put up protection and/or weakness to reduce power damage further while your condition damage rips through the enemy like butter. The only counter to condition builds are condition builds due to the high toughness/weakness/protection uptime. This is why almost everyone in s/tpvp is playing rabid-condi builds right now.

And? It is possible to do equally or higher damage with high toughness due to knights gear stats.

It’s almost like you didn’t read anything I said nor do you understand how toughness works. Condi damage is the most effective type of damage vs high toughness builds since it ignores 100% of toughness. A Knights-geared player will always lose to a Rabid-geared player if they’re of equal skill.

The problem is that the only counter to rabid-condi builds are condi builds since all that power/precision/crit damage is greatly reduced in effectiveness by the toughness of Rabid-condi builds.

In terms of people defending condis and saying “oh, if you nerf them, it will kill build diversity.” In PVE this might be true, and I think condis need a buff in PVE. Condis are definitely a bit less desirable in PVE. I’d like to see condi damage increased in PVE.

However, in PVP condis have been dominant for about a year now. If nearly everyone is running a condi build (bunker or dps) that’s not build diversity. Condis might be “close” to being balanced, but they’re definitely stronger than power damage. If we were seeing 50/50 split in terms of power and condi builds, sure, this thread would be pointless. I’d like to see that happen one day. Until that happens, condis are objectively OP.

Disclosure: I play all 8 classes with condi builds (most rabid, some carrion). This is not because I like condis, but because it’s much easier to win with them in the current balance of the game.

Edit: I also only use the bunny finisher, because I want my opponents to know that I’m a noob that only won because of condi spam.

Kharr.5746:

It’s almost like you didn’t read anything I said nor do you understand how toughness works. Condi damage is the most effective type of damage vs high toughness builds since it ignores 100% of toughness. A Knights-geared player will always lose to a Rabid-geared player if they’re of equal skill.

The problem is that the only counter to rabid-condi builds are condi builds since all that power/precision/crit damage is greatly reduced in effectiveness by the toughness of Rabid-condi builds.

In terms of people defending condis and saying “oh, if you nerf them, it will kill build diversity.” In PVE this might be true, and I think condis need a buff in PVE. Condis are definitely a bit less desirable in PVE. I’d like to see condi damage increased in PVE.

However, in PVP condis have been dominant for about a year now. If nearly everyone is running a condi build (bunker or dps) that’s not build diversity. Condis might be “close” to being balanced, but they’re definitely stronger than power damage. If we were seeing 50/50 split in terms of power and condi builds, sure, this thread would be pointless. I’d like to see that happen one day. Until that happens, condis are objectively OP.

Disclosure: I play all 8 classes with condi builds (most rabid, some carrion). This is not because I like condis, but because it’s much easier to win with them in the current balance of the game.

Edit: I also only use the bunny finisher, because I want my opponents to know that I’m a noob that only won because of condi spam.

You don’t have any metrics to show that it isn’t a 50/50 split you are basing all of this from your experience. Going by your expertise you run nothing but conditions on all 8 professions and never die to a power build which I’m sure isn’t the case at all.

It sounds like you are also giving toughness just a little to much credit in what it does. The popular condition builds sit around 2.7k armor – 2.8k armor. Going from 2.6k armor to 2.8k is probably 5% damage reduction at most so around a 400-500 hp loss difference on a 8k backstab. Many direct damage builds hit 2.6k armor pretty easily with thief and mesmer getting away with zerker a bit better then everyone else.

Nobody is really running conditions at top meta in s/tPvP so this must be about WvW/roaming/dueling. Just running knights doesn’t guarantee a auto loss to rabid user a knights user with no points in vit tree, no condition cleanses, no idea what that condition build is capable of is a different story.

@ Ozi

“If you have a problem with a specific build and think it needs to be changed in some way call out that build on that class. Generalizing all condition builds under 1 umbrella doesn’t really do anything except make it appear as if you don’t know what the problem is or if there is even one to begin with.”

Idk if this was aimed at me but in any case, I did say most. The most being the ones who can put out severe condition stacks or variety while being incredibly beefy to any source of damage.

If it wasn’t aimed at me, well I still stand by that. I’m all in line with the OP, conditions aren’t overpowered but they aren’t tricky to invest into. I understand you can’t make a build that is meant to melt someone down to be squishy or that defeats the purpose, but its pushed to the extreme on some builds that can be very tanky and still put heavy pressure even on groups. There are a few fingers to be pointed at specific classes but its not exclusive to 1 or 2, so generalizing it is appropriate to determine what condition builds are problems and which are pathetic and maybe need attention. Finding out what’s overpowering can also lead to finding what is underpowered which can tip the scale in the right direction which is good for balance.

There are quite a few “basic” factors at fault here, which applies to everyone like 40% condition duration food for example, and these things get addressed from time to time, but their fear of “wack-a-mole” is far to influential on their patch work and is keeping pvp from its deserved attention. Almost 1.5 months between the last update and the next, and apparently pvp needs to follow the pve schedule.

Dear OP, i hear you complain about the seemingly unfair lack of counterplay against conditions.

Please let me inform you that while you may or may not have been doing something else, ArenaNet did infact decide to introduce some counterplay to these type of attacks. Their solution was called; Condition removal.

It works like this;
In this article (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conditions#Related_skills) there is several skills that removes conditions. Using any of these skills may or may not remove one or several conditions. There is also certain runes and sigils that either removes or transfers conditions upon performing an attack or using a “shout” type utility (in case you wonder, professions with shouts are: Warriors, Guardians and Rangers).
There is also certain traits that reduce the efficiency or remove conditions, such as, but not limited to; Empathic Bond, Cleansing Ire, Purity, Cleansing Wave and more.

Please try out these skills, traits, runes and sigils then come back to us and tell us how it went.

Cheers

Traits like cleansing ire and empathic bond are an awful method to dealing with conditions, because they are almost essential by doing the job almost far to well to pass up. It isn’t really build diversity if there is a best in slot solution to deal with vulnerability.

Also few professions have effective means to deal with condition overload, and many professions lack sufficient condition clearing period. If I play a condi build and I see a thief or engineer or necro I focus them, because they don’t deal with them too well. There are a good chunk of builds that have well known vulnerabilities that even if they try to spec to deal with it, it just doesn’t quite work. Ever cc a thief and pour liquid conditions on them? It’s quite tasty.

NinjaEd.3946:

Traits like cleansing ire and empathic bond are an awful method to dealing with conditions, because they are almost essential by doing the job almost far to well to pass up. It isn’t really build diversity if there is a best in slot solution to deal with vulnerability.

Also few professions have effective means to deal with condition overload, and many professions lack sufficient condition clearing period. If I play a condi build and I see a thief or engineer or necro I focus them, because they don’t deal with them too well. There are a good chunk of builds that have well known vulnerabilities that even if they try to spec to deal with it, it just doesn’t quite work. Ever cc a thief and pour liquid conditions on them? It’s quite tasty.

That doesn’t make sense how they are awful for dealing with conditions but are to good at dealing with conditions. Also BIS slow condition traits are all through many builds thieves taking shadows embrace, eles taking cleansing water, guardians taking absolute resolution. Every class has a BIS trait as in clearly the best one they have.

Also necros don’t deal with conditions to well? Since? Engineers I can agree with but I don’t know of to many necro’s that would agree with that. What thieves are you CCing that don’t have shadow step ready or even just lay refuge on top of themselves to cleanse? You are fighting some odd people.

Every class I play can make conditions hardly a issue if they wanted to build that way. That doesn’t mean you will kill many things but you can build that way. Mesmer considered to have poor condition management actually have pretty decent management but they would have to give up their popular traits. Ele is self explanatory, guardian, thieves with shadow embrace, fleet foot and pain response etc… The popular builds don’t take those traits but they can deal with a overload. It’s the same concept if you wanted to tank direct damage you take every trait that helps you do so.

NinjaEd.3946:

Also few professions have effective means to deal with condition overload, and many professions lack sufficient condition clearing period. If I play a condi build and I see a thief or engineer or necro I focus them, because they don’t deal with them too well.

???

Are you serious?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_power

@ Meta

The only necromancer’s I run into who give me troubles on a condi build (which that situation is rather rare because I hardly run condi and I hardly run into necro) is MM and those using OH dagger. Consume conditions is basically standard, so I will push them into using it with a “burst” of conditions and hold the real overload for later. Outside of that the well just means “AoE at this spot” or stop hitting them while its up since it has a 50 sec cd, signet is a 60 sec cd and not something I worry about, putrid mark is like any mark when it comes to dodging (many seem to think they need it at their feet for it to xfer, so makes it easy to dodge through). Necro doesn’t have mediocre condition clearing, but if I see a group with guardian warrior necro ele and ranger I’ll put my conditions on the necromancer. Thief Mesmer engineer are tied in my mind for overall builds, necro sits smack dab in the middle of them and the rest.

@Ozii

A lot of thieves moved away from SA which means no shadow’s embrace (pvp). The SA thieves out in wvw are just an obstacle you should skip, because if they’re at all competent they cannot die and will waste your time. In pvp, they get sword or PR, generosity sigil, SS (utility) but otherwise don’t have a way to deal with AoE conditions let alone AoE anything. On my necro I’ve often used deathly swarm on a thief during a group fight and watched them run off to either die or recover, they don’t handle them well sadly.

NinjaEd.3946:

@ Meta

The only necromancer’s I run into who give me troubles on a condi build (which that situation is rather rare because I hardly run condi and I hardly run into necro) is MM and those using OH dagger. Consume conditions is basically standard, so I will push them into using it with a “burst” of conditions and hold the real overload for later. Outside of that the well just means “AoE at this spot” or stop hitting them while its up since it has a 50 sec cd, signet is a 60 sec cd and not something I worry about, putrid mark is like any mark when it comes to dodging (many seem to think they need it at their feet for it to xfer, so makes it easy to dodge through). Necro doesn’t have mediocre condition clearing, but if I see a group with guardian warrior necro ele and ranger I’ll put my conditions on the necromancer. Thief Mesmer engineer are tied in my mind for overall builds, necro sits smack dab in the middle of them and the rest.

Translation: “I play at the lowest skill level, which helps explain my own comments and views.”

Even lousy necros are really tough to bring down with conditions, know that Putrid Mark will transfer from anywhere and place it at their target’s location, or will hold back on Consume Conditions until they can use the heal/can wipe massive condition stacks at once.

If you were actually knowledgeable about necros and conditions in general, they would be the last person you focus with conditions. With the vast majority of them, you’d just be giving them ammo.

Yet I constantly see them putting marks at their feet, which means you can run up and dodge through them and waste it. Only necro’s I see using staff are MM or fear spam, neither of which are very thoughtful and are played by pretty kitten people.

Tossing a care package worth of conditions isn’t difficult, you can often force them into using it without having put out your full condition burst. If they enter DS its even easier to unload, and it gets that much easier.

NinjaEd.3946:

Yet I constantly see them putting marks at their feet, which means you can run up and dodge through them and waste it. Only necro’s I see using staff are MM or fear spam, neither of which are very thoughtful and are played by pretty kitten people.

Tossing a care package worth of conditions isn’t difficult, you can often force them into using it without having put out your full condition burst. If they enter DS its even easier to unload, and it gets that much easier.

I was just wondering about your views as they are against the norm with Necro’s being a person you should target with conditions. It looks like you main thief looking at your post history, so I am guessing you run your thief with conditions probably 2/0/6/0/6? That is the one condition build that has the best chance against a condition Necro, but every other class running conditions isn’t a condi thief and it is far in the condition Necro’s favor.

Condi thief in s/tPvP? That is the only condition build I can even think of that can live through a condition transfer and really the only one that would maybe make a condition necro place putrid at their feet. A condition engi stands no chance especially if supply crate is not up. Five Guage has even said he won’t engage necro’s by himself unless there is help or the necro is extremely bad. So you have to be talking about condi p/d thief in s/tPvP. Any good necro will doom and flash out of DS place Putrid Mark if they really need to get the transfer off.

I have in the past run condi thief, never in tpvp though. I’ve run in overall game modes (wvw, spvp, tpvp) condi engineer, thief, and ranger, and I do play a necro just not condi spec’ed. Granted I can stay in DS a LONG time and have hoelbrak runes + unholy martyr I can get loaded with conditions pretty quickly forcing me to back off, use [Consume conditions], or combo something to make sure deathly swarm makes contact because it clears 0 conditions if it misses.

In a normal situation, my target focus depends on the build. Most of my builds, I’m on the side lines picking off ranged or support classes. With a condi build, I’ve found it much easier to lay pressure on a necro than a ranger because I always see them running empathic bond + renewal signet which is 4 conditions removed every 10 seconds. Guardian, warrior, conditions are meaningless unless you have a ton of sources that are quick to apply and reapply, elemenatlists don’t seem to have troubles with it either.

I apologize if I made it sound like necromancer has terrible condition clearing, I meant to say they are better targets than most, while some are even better targets. I look at necro condition clearing like how TC used to be in wvw (I think SoS took that spot for now). They aren’t quite Tier 1, but they are better than tier 2 if that makes sense. I’d still focus a necro with conditions over a Mesmer even if Mesmer isn’t superb at clearing conditions.

Kharr.5746:

It’s almost like you didn’t read anything I said nor do you understand how toughness works. Condi damage is the most effective type of damage vs high toughness builds since it ignores 100% of toughness. A Knights-geared player will always lose to a Rabid-geared player if they’re of equal skill.

Well, I will ignore your obvious, yet weak attempts at backhanded insults and challenge you to prove you “claims”. I will gladly take you on with a knights geared profession against your rabid geared one, in either your or my private PvP server.

Kharr.5746:

The problem is that the only counter to rabid-condi builds are condi builds since all that power/precision/crit damage is greatly reduced in effectiveness by the toughness of Rabid-condi builds.

This may be your perception. Oddly enough, the rest of us disprove this in game play on a daily bases. I am always left scratching my head at those of you who assume your own personal skill limitations, define balance for the game as a whole.

Kharr.5746:

In terms of people defending condis and saying “oh, if you nerf them, it will kill build diversity.” In PVE this might be true, and I think condis need a buff in PVE. Condis are definitely a bit less desirable in PVE. I’d like to see condi damage increased in PVE.

However, in PVP condis have been dominant for about a year now. If nearly everyone is running a condi build (bunker or dps) that’s not build diversity. Condis might be “close” to being balanced, but they’re definitely stronger than power damage. If we were seeing 50/50 split in terms of power and condi builds, sure, this thread would be pointless. I’d like to see that happen one day. Until that happens, condis are objectively OP…

What a strange thing to say in support of your argument. The two recent ToL showed that condi builds are the minority in high end competitive PvP. I mean, all of the video documentation I am seeing posted disagrees with your statements. Do you have any evidence to support your claims, or are you simply forcing your limited experience on us and assuming we will swallow it whole?

Kharr.5746:

Disclosure: I play all 8 classes with condi builds (most rabid, some carrion). This is not because I like condis, but because it’s much easier to win with them in the current balance of the game.

Edit: I also only use the bunny finisher, because I want my opponents to know that I’m a noob that only won because of condi spam.

AH, so you admit you are not familiar with how to play any of the professions outside of condition builds I see. To be honest, your making a lot of “claims” while offering no facts or evidence to support them. Seems to me that your are simply mis-informed. Low level solo queue does not represent the whole of PvP my friend.

NinjaEd.3946:

Traits like cleansing ire and empathic bond are an awful method to dealing with conditions, because they are almost essential by doing the job almost far to well to pass up. It isn’t really build diversity if there is a best in slot solution to deal with vulnerability. .

I can’t agree with that. There is a “best way” to do almost everything. How would you suggest making changes to the game that offer build diversity in which there is never a “best way” to accomplish something?

NinjaEd.3946:

Also few professions have effective means to deal with condition overload, and many professions lack sufficient condition clearing period. If I play a condi build and I see a thief or engineer or necro I focus them, because they don’t deal with them too well. There are a good chunk of builds that have well known vulnerabilities that even if they try to spec to deal with it, it just doesn’t quite work. Ever cc a thief and pour liquid conditions on them? It’s quite tasty.

Engineer I can agree with. To suggest that necros do not deal with conditions applied to them though, just doesn’t seem to make sense to me, considering how easy they can transfer them

NinjaEd.3946:

I apologize if I made it sound like necromancer has terrible condition clearing, I meant to say they are better targets than most, while some are even better targets. I look at necro condition clearing like how TC used to be in wvw (I think SoS took that spot for now). They aren’t quite Tier 1, but they are better than tier 2 if that makes sense. I’d still focus a necro with conditions over a Mesmer even if Mesmer isn’t superb at clearing conditions.

You would honestly focus conditions on a necro over a Mesmer? Are you joking? In what world is that a good idea? I’m trying to understand the reasoning.

I feel that it’s pretty clear you have no understanding of how this game works in regards to conditions and their counter play.

NinjaEd.3946:

I have in the past run condi thief, never in tpvp though. I’ve run in overall game modes (wvw, spvp, tpvp) condi engineer, thief, and ranger, and I do play a necro just not condi spec’ed. Granted I can stay in DS a LONG time and have hoelbrak runes + unholy martyr I can get loaded with conditions pretty quickly forcing me to back off, use [Consume conditions], or combo something to make sure deathly swarm makes contact because it clears 0 conditions if it misses.

In a normal situation, my target focus depends on the build. Most of my builds, I’m on the side lines picking off ranged or support classes. With a condi build, I’ve found it much easier to lay pressure on a necro than a ranger because I always see them running empathic bond + renewal signet which is 4 conditions removed every 10 seconds. Guardian, warrior, conditions are meaningless unless you have a ton of sources that are quick to apply and reapply, elemenatlists don’t seem to have troubles with it either.

I apologize if I made it sound like necromancer has terrible condition clearing, I meant to say they are better targets than most, while some are even better targets. I look at necro condition clearing like how TC used to be in wvw (I think SoS took that spot for now). They aren’t quite Tier 1, but they are better than tier 2 if that makes sense. I’d still focus a necro with conditions over a Mesmer even if Mesmer isn’t superb at clearing conditions.

I just cant follow this line of thinking tbh. It makes no sense to throw condis on a necro before a mesmer even if you don’t get hit by the transfer your teammates. I do it all the time on my necro if I fight a condi pu mesmer if I need a transfer and the mesmer is stalling I just give them to the phantasm or clone, or a team mate, a pet from a ranger there are plenty of things around to dump conditions on it doesn’t just have to be you. I am just not following this, really nobody would agree with this line of thinking and I don’t think you know something we all don’t.

I’d focus Mesmer over necro because I’d be chasing a Mesmer, necro isn’t dodging or blocking nearly as much or using stealth to recover and avoid. Mesmer doesn’t have terrible condition clearing, mix that with their ability to avoid things altogether versus taking it and potentially sending it back yeah, I’d focus necro first. Condition transfer only works if they don’t dodge or block it, otherwise it doesn’t remove them. Mesmer is below necro as far as removing conditions, assuming perfect conditions are set which is rarely ever.

NinjaEd.3946:

I’d focus Mesmer over necro because I’d be chasing a Mesmer, necro isn’t dodging or blocking nearly as much or using stealth to recover and avoid. Mesmer doesn’t have terrible condition clearing, mix that with their ability to avoid things altogether versus taking it and potentially sending it back yeah, I’d focus necro first. Condition transfer only works if they don’t dodge or block it, otherwise it doesn’t remove them. Mesmer is below necro as far as removing conditions, assuming perfect conditions are set which is rarely ever.

Though like I stated the Necromancer doesn’t need you to drop the conditions he can give them to anything targetable. You can go full burst and if you are playing a good necro and he can’t give them to you then he will give it to your teammate, a pet, or clone. A necro well a good one will fear you to try and guarantee the transfer especially if he is counting dodges, that doesn’t work he still have tainted shackles to set up a transfer, that doesn’t work flesh golem charge. It’s not like the necro can’t almost guarantee a transfer and plague signet is instant cast stun break. Though many necros don’t run plague signet because fears, tainted shackles, and flesh golem are usually enough to get off a transfer.

NinjaEd.3946:

I’d focus Mesmer over necro because I’d be chasing a Mesmer, necro isn’t dodging or blocking nearly as much or using stealth to recover and avoid. Mesmer doesn’t have terrible condition clearing, mix that with their ability to avoid things altogether versus taking it and potentially sending it back yeah, I’d focus necro first. Condition transfer only works if they don’t dodge or block it, otherwise it doesn’t remove them. Mesmer is below necro as far as removing conditions, assuming perfect conditions are set which is rarely ever.

As with the others I am also a bit curious about where your major experience in the game has been in, love.

A Necromancer with a head on his shoulders is extremely strong at dealing with conditions, and is one of only two classes in the game that can weaponize conditions he’s suffering from which is much more potent than a mere cleanse. On that note your comments about Mesmer are eyebrow-raising to say the least.

Most of the Mesmer’s I find aren’t stupid, it’s not a class you can just pick up and get going so the, shall we say, “Sucky” mesmers aren’t in high supply. Most will just quit it after realizing what it takes to be “effective”. Necromancer on the other hand is a lot simpler to handle. It isn’t a brainless class, but when I see fear spam and MM everywhere it strikes me as an easier task to get into. Happened yesterday with the same situation, necro was using staff but putting marks at their feet, didn’t have OH dagger, actually thought I was a condi necro when I was power. This is just an example of necromancer’s I keep running into, their possibly new or just haven’t explored options that take more effort.

With that in mind, the Mesmer’s I see are constantly kiting you, they don’t pounce and keep the pressure up. They are avoiding you from teleports, constant dodge/blocks/invulnerablities/stealth and don’t let you get time on them until the time is right for them to pounce again. If they use GS its a different story and are quite easy to stay with but staff is a nightmare to catch.

I’m not focusing necro over Mesmer thinking necro has worse condition clearing, I’m focusing necro over Mesmer because knowing how they work I can actually land my conditions and evade their methods of condi xfer fairly easy. Even if the necro transfers the conditions to antoher target say a pet or ally, that means I’m untouched by that and can just go to reapplying. Only counter to that is consume conditions which I can either interrupt or let it slip by knowing I have 25 seconds to get something going. I focus necro because right now, I’m not seeing a high volume of necromancer’s who effectively deal with conditions or counter my pressure. Mesmer avoids me like I made a bad family joke, and I can rarely lock them down long enough to get anything going on a condi build.

conditions don’t need counterplay they just need to be removed from classes that shouldn’t have them……… necro engie Mesmer= condi . warrior guard thief ranger = damage the reason it is so bad is because high damage classes get condis thrown on top of it

NinjaEd.3946:

Most of the Mesmer’s I find aren’t stupid, it’s not a class you can just pick up and get going so the, shall we say, “Sucky” mesmers aren’t in high supply. Most will just quit it after realizing what it takes to be “effective”. Necromancer on the other hand is a lot simpler to handle. It isn’t a brainless class, but when I see fear spam and MM everywhere it strikes me as an easier task to get into. Happened yesterday with the same situation, necro was using staff but putting marks at their feet, didn’t have OH dagger, actually thought I was a condi necro when I was power. This is just an example of necromancer’s I keep running into, their possibly new or just haven’t explored options that take more effort.

With that in mind, the Mesmer’s I see are constantly kiting you, they don’t pounce and keep the pressure up. They are avoiding you from teleports, constant dodge/blocks/invulnerablities/stealth and don’t let you get time on them until the time is right for them to pounce again. If they use GS its a different story and are quite easy to stay with but staff is a nightmare to catch.

I’m not focusing necro over Mesmer thinking necro has worse condition clearing, I’m focusing necro over Mesmer because knowing how they work I can actually land my conditions and evade their methods of condi xfer fairly easy. Even if the necro transfers the conditions to antoher target say a pet or ally, that means I’m untouched by that and can just go to reapplying. Only counter to that is consume conditions which I can either interrupt or let it slip by knowing I have 25 seconds to get something going. I focus necro because right now, I’m not seeing a high volume of necromancer’s who effectively deal with conditions or counter my pressure. Mesmer avoids me like I made a bad family joke, and I can rarely lock them down long enough to get anything going on a condi build.

It is difficult to counter this as you are relaying your own experiences and it seems to come down to an issue of player skill. I will suggest though love that there is a reason Mesmers play the way you’re describing and it isn’t because they find conditions easy to handle.

Back on the main topic,

there are ways each class can deal with conditions, some do it better than others and are able to keep pressure on a condi class while some will have to run/reset and come back to finish off the fight. (I used to do this all the time when my main was a thief)