Guild Wars 2

hooma.9642:

Jerus.4350:

hooma.9642:

Althalos.6734:

hooma.9642:

running as fast like a ferrari has nothing to with trinity. all classes can build in every possible way. there are enough tools, like in this example runes, to compensate in some way possible disadvantages throught design. is it equal effective? no, but why should it?

Because all professions were meant to be able to perform in every aspect of game on equal level, they were just meant to do their job in a different way. Which actually means guardians should have been given something in return in form of traits/profession mechanics and not mandatory items.

And a bit more on topic, I’m more in favor of granting the guardian better access to soft CC than more mobility.

funny cause guardian has some good skills to hinder enemy movement.

Like?

Hammer3 is easily dodged.

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

Scepter 3 is not bad, but scepter…. yeah….

GS5 again stability, but it’s not bad I guess, just not all that great and a longish reuse even with traits to lower it.

Sorry if that came off as a bit rude, that’s not the intention, but really, what moves are you talking about? If there’s something I’m missing I’d love to know, but my experiences with the ones above are just mediocre at best.

.. but stability

u act like stability wasnt there for a reason.

And what about the secondary reason I felt they were all mediocre?

I’m trying to get some information here. YOur post has done nothing to support your claim and really not much to denounce mine. Yes stability does what it does. But what makes the tools guardians have good? That’s what I’m asking, you said they were, what makes them good?

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

Uhtameit.2413:

@Lucentfir

Guardian never was the beast roamer out there because it is far from having the best mobility. If it doesn’t have a target, it has a very poor mobility actually. And perhaps I did assume wrong, but you didn’t mention Lyssa and the possibility to be able to use it is very nice for guards.

To be honest it’s easy to overload anyone with conditions if they take your grenades/bombs except : war and necro.

About the heals, I know. Already commented on that, I’m not going that way twice.

Fighting a hambow is most dangerous for the opponent of course, though guardian probably stands okay-chances (since my engi depends on doing condi damage and cc, good luck with Berserker Stance/ Balanced Stance/ Rune of Lyssa).

As for guardian vs engi, a duel where the engi uses his crate is pretty hard to win (except if you play hambow). Tbh bombs in a duel are just so unreliable I don’t really get how they can prove much of an issue (unlike grenades), they’re more of a way to make sure you don’t come close.If they have rocket boots/tool kit/ grenades or bombs, they don’t have a stun breaker (that’s what I run actually) which puts them at risk against a few other classes so you know…paper, scissors, etc…

@Aza

Nah nah nah I never meant that scepter has 1200 range, nothing will land at that range. Even the wiki says that “The maximum damage range for scepters is 940 – 1,060” (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter ). I meant that it’s a short range option, you can use it at say 400-600. Scepter is actually pretty good in sPvP AFAIK.

I know quite a few decent guardians who use torch with scepter in PvP so it’s not that weak. For instance it’s quite good coupled with sword/focus and the GM trait that gives +15% crit one one-hand weapons.

Again, no no no no, I suggested to get the trait to chill because the OP asked for soft cc options. This is one of the few guardian already possesses. Don’t bend my words into some other meaning : the trait is not amazing, but it is a soft cc. And it is pretty much reliable if you use it with the GM i just mentionned that could get you around 65% crit.

The only way to make Guardian bearable in roaming is to put on Traveler’s Runes, then it becomes decent. The only other skill we use for mobility is Leap of Faith(does not require a target). Outside those two weapons though Guardian’s have really bad mobility. Also I never brought up Lyssa, you did when we were discussing the Ele vs Guardian condition removal thing. I never said Lyssa wasn’t bad, but what i said was basically you’d have to wait a full channel of renewed Focus, to get the benefit of it when you need it. (2-3s) Normally you use Renewed Focus when you’re about to get bursted or anticipate something is about to hit you hard. Spvp wise the runes are good no doubt, however outside of Spvp, Runes of Lyssa is Meh for a roaming guardian, since it conflicts with Traveler’s Runes, decent speed up you need to roam well.

Agreed, on it’s easy to overload anyone with condition’s period.

On the guardian i have to be up front and personnel with the warrior, and he has Weakness he could hit me with to null alot of my burst(Fierce Blow) ,and AoE with LB, with a immoblize. If you get stunlocked you’re going to be at a disadvantage if you’re out of stunbreakers(Likely to lose control of the fight.), hence why burst, with blinds and well time blocks lead to beating warriors, you have to play well other wise you’ll lose.

Hambow, at least with the build I ran, on engi for condi, dual pistol, Toolkit, Bombkit, and Shirk Elixer, I tore apart warriors, Kite around The Warrior and wait till Zerker stance expires, throw your first load of conditions on him by using bomb kit, spam, and overload his bar, make him proc SoR, kite him again, load him up again with pistol skills. with my build I used I think 20/30/0/20/0 with Rabid’s amulet. Sitting Duck Trait for the easy cover condition on Glue Shot, burning completely nulls and even damages Warrior with HS, add posion, confusion and and stacks of bleed you’ll easily burn them down. I use bombs for anti melee, if someone is chasing me I lay down a bunch of bombs, and if they take a second to back off I’ll go back to pistol and spam them with conditions. I see a lot of engineers use grenades, in Spvp but I think that’s because it’s ranged, spammable, also it has really long poison duration.

Muchacho.2390:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

Thx, was mistaken on that I guess =)

Muchacho.2390:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

For the fearwall it’s true, though it’s entirely possible to dodge roll through Wards, i’ve done it numerous times in duels with Guards using Hammer, or guards that try to block me off in WvW(tight spaces), normally it knocks you back slightly if you’re close still afterwards it’s enough you can dodge through it. Or if you want to guarantee to dodge through it just as you collide with the while stunbreak when it knocks you back slightly. You’ll go through the warding.

This thread is hilarious. I have virtually perma swiftness of my guardian. What more do I need?

Althalos.6734:

Uhtameit.2413:

I know quite a few decent guardians who use torch with scepter in PvP so it’s not that weak. For instance it’s quite good coupled with sword/focus and the GM trait that gives +15% crit one one-hand weapons.

Again, no no no no, I suggested to get the trait to chill because the OP asked for soft cc options. This is one of the few guardian already possesses. Don’t bend my words into some other meaning : the trait is not amazing, but it is a soft cc. And it is pretty much reliable if you use it with the GM i just mentionned that could get you around 65% crit.

Glacial Heart works with hammer only which is a two handed weapon, Right-Hand Strength doesn’t apply here. In addition, you have to sacrifice Monk’s Focus (read sustain) if you want to have Focused Mind for Fury and Glacial Heart at the same time.

Right xD I completely forgot about that. Yeah you have to give up a lot to get Glacial Heart but tbh that traitline has so many good traits.

Lucentfir.7430:

Hambow, at least with the build I ran, on engi for condi, dual pistol, Toolkit, Bombkit, and Shirk Elixer, I tore apart warriors, Kite around The Warrior and wait till Zerker stance expires, throw your first load of conditions on him by using bomb kit, spam, and overload his bar, make him proc SoR, kite him again, load him up again with pistol skills. with my build I used I think 20/30/0/20/0 with Rabid’s amulet. Sitting Duck Trait for the easy cover condition on Glue Shot, burning completely nulls and even damages Warrior with HS, add posion, confusion and and stacks of bleed you’ll easily burn them down. I use bombs for anti melee, if someone is chasing me I lay down a bunch of bombs, and if they take a second to back off I’ll go back to pistol and spam them with conditions. I see a lot of engineers use grenades, in Spvp but I think that’s because it’s ranged, spammable, also it has really long poison duration.

You’ll have some trouble kiting a hambow. Also, any half-decent warriors won’t walk in your bombs and if he does he’ll use his stance then and stunlock the kitten out of you. You’ll take some damage anyway from the longbow and at some point you’ll be unable to cleanse Pin Down and you’ll be in for another stun lock. In sPvP engis usually run 30 10 0 20 10 or 30 0 0 30 10 but still, I find it very annoying to fight hambows. You can win, sure, but you have to put three times the effort they put, and it will take a very long time.

Anyway, we’re getting off topic here

hooma.9642:

Black Box.9312:

hooma.9642:

so this thread is about: “i ignored the class-philosophy and picked a guard but wanted a warrior in secret”?

No. I have a warrior, and I find it boring as hell. I prefer the playstyle of guardian, but I just got tired of not being able to keep up with anything because of a silly design philosophy.

so u have a suv but it is boring and the ferrari is just more fun to drive. but cause stupid design philosophy of ferrari u cant drive with them off-road. ???

seems reasonable

I tried to understand your analogy. I really did. But I just don’t get the part that’s supposed to be relevant.

style.6173:

This thread is hilarious. I have virtually perma swiftness of my guardian. What more do I need?

That’s great! Now if only staff and shouts and boon duration gear was good for solo play, where mobility actually matters…

Black Box.9312:

style.6173:

This thread is hilarious. I have virtually perma swiftness of my guardian. What more do I need?

That’s great! Now if only staff and shouts and boon duration gear was good for solo play, where mobility actually matters…

Meditations and sword if you are solo.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Black Box.9312:

style.6173:

This thread is hilarious. I have virtually perma swiftness of my guardian. What more do I need?

That’s great! Now if only staff and shouts and boon duration gear was good for solo play, where mobility actually matters…

Meditations and sword if you are solo.

I think you missed the point.

Seeing the “new builds” people are suggesting for guardians is disheartening (Like in our sub-profession forum).
Any game that doesn’t try to balance “roles” 1v1 ends up flawed and unbalanced; Keep in mind that it is very difficult even near impossible to be balanced.

Melee class/profession with no means to stay in melee is broken. You can argue that others are there to help you but I can tell you that you are just hindering the team if you need someone to hold your hand.

Also, about the sword “teleport” skill….it sucks. It is slow.

Lucentfir.7430:

Muchacho.2390:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

For the fearwall it’s true, though it’s entirely possible to dodge roll through Wards, i’ve done it numerous times in duels with Guards using Hammer, or guards that try to block me off in WvW(tight spaces), normally it knocks you back slightly if you’re close still afterwards it’s enough you can dodge through it. Or if you want to guarantee to dodge through it just as you collide with the while stunbreak when it knocks you back slightly. You’ll go through the warding.

I am pretty sure you cannot dodge though guardian walls unless they changed it in the last months.
So if you by any chance are able to dodge though them you ether have stability or it is a bug.

style.6173:

This thread is hilarious. I have virtually perma swiftness of my guardian. What more do I need?

To consider there are builds outside of Boon Duration, Bunker, AH or Healway w/ a Staff & Shouts?

You’re Hilarious.

Muchacho.2390:

Lucentfir.7430:

Muchacho.2390:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

For the fearwall it’s true, though it’s entirely possible to dodge roll through Wards, i’ve done it numerous times in duels with Guards using Hammer, or guards that try to block me off in WvW(tight spaces), normally it knocks you back slightly if you’re close still afterwards it’s enough you can dodge through it. Or if you want to guarantee to dodge through it just as you collide with the while stunbreak when it knocks you back slightly. You’ll go through the warding.

I am pretty sure you cannot dodge though guardian walls unless they changed it in the last months.
So if you by any chance are able to dodge though them you ether have stability or it is a bug.

I’m pretty sure you can still dodge through Warding’s Wall, I know stunbreaking as you get knocked down by a ward is the easiest way of moving/dodging through LoW, and RoW.

Amins.3710:

To consider there are builds outside of Boon Duration, Bunker, AH or Healway w/ a Staff & Shouts?

You’re Hilarious.

“Hey, if I pick a build which isn’t mobile, I’m not mobile!”

How is this a problem?

Carighan.6758:

Amins.3710:

To consider there are builds outside of Boon Duration, Bunker, AH or Healway w/ a Staff & Shouts?

You’re Hilarious.

“Hey, if I pick a build which isn’t mobile, I’m not mobile!”

How is this a problem?

Not being mobile is the problem, thats why staff and shouts with swiftness are mandatory.

Yes well, I can pick setups which aren’t mobile, too. If mobility isn’t required in the situation I’m facing, cool, less slots wasted on something I don’t need.

If I need mobility, I’ll use my mobility weapons/skills.

How is this… not as it should be?

Because staff isn’t a mobile weapon. It requires you to stand still within the symbol for 4 seconds to gain the maximum benefit. No one in their right minds would do this as it would severely hinder your combat mobility.

Carighan.6758:

Yes well, I can pick setups which aren’t mobile, too. If mobility isn’t required in the situation I’m facing, cool, less slots wasted on something I don’t need.

If I need mobility, I’ll use my mobility weapons/skills.

How is this… not as it should be?

Because that build is exclusively support-oriented and has little to no efficiency in solo and small group play. Nobody in their right mind would take their staff solo roaming; it just doesn’t work.

Black Box.9312:

Because that build is exclusively support-oriented and has little to no efficiency in solo and small group play. Nobody in their right mind would take their staff solo roaming; it just doesn’t work.

Well then isn’kitten good thing that this isn’t some fighting game or MOBA but a massive multiplayer online game?

(The main issue is devs thinking too little in MMO terms, tbh. Not the opposite.)

Carighan.6758:

Black Box.9312:

Because that build is exclusively support-oriented and has little to no efficiency in solo and small group play. Nobody in their right mind would take their staff solo roaming; it just doesn’t work.

Well then isn’kitten good thing that this isn’t some fighting game or MOBA but a massive multiplayer online game?

(The main issue is devs thinking too little in MMO terms, tbh. Not the opposite.)

So you’re saying solo roaming and much of sPVP are pointless and don’t need balancing?

I’d say one of the best things an MMO can do is have quality solo options for people to mess around with while they wait for a group, or just want to kill time, or whatever.

Obviously the group stuff comes first, but a game with limited solo play options will get frustrating when you simply don’t feel like grouping and dealing with people ( a mood I think a lot of gamers get in.. I know I do)

Carighan.6758:

Black Box.9312:

Because that build is exclusively support-oriented and has little to no efficiency in solo and small group play. Nobody in their right mind would take their staff solo roaming; it just doesn’t work.

Well then isn’kitten good thing that this isn’t some fighting game or MOBA but a massive multiplayer online game?

(The main issue is devs thinking too little in MMO terms, tbh. Not the opposite.)

Spamming staff 1 into a blob is not everyone’s idea of fun.

Jerus.4350:

So you’re saying solo roaming and much of sPVP are pointless and don’t need balancing?

Pointless? In most cases yes, because the enemy can and hopefully will have a plan of action which makes them have superior numbers in any and all situation (that’s the best way to win, because it means that independent of class balance and while mitigating individual player skill you got the advantage in all cases).

Needs balance? Sure it does. But it should never take priority over the MMO-balance, this being a MMORPG. If there’s room to squeeze in smallscale balance without reducing class diversity for the main balance track or reducing balance there, then sure. But if it would come at a cost, I’d always opt to balance for the advertised genre first, and do the rest once that is done.

Black Box.9312:

Spamming staff 1 into a blob is not everyone’s idea of fun.

Well that’s hopefully not what you’re doing, or you’re just getting carried while farming bags.

Carighan.6758:

Jerus.4350:

So you’re saying solo roaming and much of sPVP are pointless and don’t need balancing?

Pointless? In most cases yes, because the enemy can and hopefully will have a plan of action which makes them have superior numbers in any and all situation

Behold the mentality of the skill-less zerger!

It’s the sole reason guardians “are in a good place”.

Amins.3710:

Behold the mentality of the skill-less zerger!

And smallscale is skill-based. Uh huh. Well, as long as you feel good up there on that horse, sure. :P

Carighan.6758:

Amins.3710:

Behold the mentality of the skill-less zerger!

And smallscale is skill-based. Uh huh. Well, as long as you feel good up there on that horse, sure. :P

Zerging takes skill and strategy for a whole one person. If you’re not commanding, then you’re not displaying any sense of skill.

Carighan.6758:

Amins.3710:

Behold the mentality of the skill-less zerger!

And smallscale is skill-based. Uh huh. Well, as long as you feel good up there on that horse, sure. :P

I feel great.. thanks.

3v8 – healway offshoot.

6v17 – my own spec

20v60 – cookie cutter since beta

Zerging is only good for the small havoc groups wiping the zerg. Please, keep bringing the numbers. We really don’t mind.

Mobility is an issue for small scale roaming. Guardians sacrifice too much to get the same mobility as almost every other class (mesmer not included of course).

Carighan.6758:

Amins.3710:

Behold the mentality of the skill-less zerger!

And smallscale is skill-based. Uh huh. Well, as long as you feel good up there on that horse, sure. :P

Small-scale fights and solo roaming requires more skill, because you’ll have a view and idea of what your opponents will be doing, compared to the screen of clutter red names and skill effects, along with randomly spamming 1 or AoE skills for bags,. Unless you’re the one commanding the zerg there’s little to no skill that exists while zerging.

So now we go to small scale skirmishes and roaming, what you need to know would be timed dodges/active defenses, knowing your class, your environment, skill animations, knowledge of other classes(it gets rough when you don’t), and reasonable/good DPS.

Lucentfir.7430:

Small-scale fights and solo roaming requires more skill

Never said anything about that. The part where I disagree is that the outcome is any more or less skill-based than in larger encounters. A tiny minority of fights are ultimately decided by player skill.

The trick in game design is to make the players think they’re doing all the work, when actually the game system decides as much as possible so that less able players – usually the majority of your income source – don’t feel unable to compete. The top-end players feel awesome about being so skilled, the less-than-awesome players can still compete, everything is fine.

If your game is actually skill-based, that’s usually not a good basic design for a MMO. You need to draw in too many players, and you also want to be able to recruit RL-couples/-friends who can and will have varying amounts of skill. These need to be able to play together, and be viable.

Anyhow, OT rant over, sorry.

I feel that movement in GW2 is too good. It shouldn’t be only non-staff Guardians and non-Focus Mesmers which have lowered OOC mobility, and it shouldn’t be that most classes have in-combat mobility skills. The whole “mobility” could be used as a class design speciality, probably for Thieves and Rangers. But right now it’s virtually omnipresent, which just washes it out – everyone needs it, and then it’s all on even ground again so it’s the same as no one having it.