Guild Wars 2

Assuming that the “automated” theme would still be maintained,what about a buffed-up version of Purity?
In short, “lose 1 condition every 5s” (it would have half the cooldown of Purity, but that’s an adept trait after all).
It would be automated, should be worthly of a grandmaster trait and while strong versus conditions, it doesn’t grant straight immunity.

Regarding Transmute, the suggestion to tie it to the toolbelt is nice too.

Chaba.5410:

Exactly. If he moves off your close point to help his team because your team is winning mid and far (should be winning if you outnumber them, then you have higher point gain from two nodes), according to what you are saying, you are no longer at a disadvantage.

I am at disadvantage. If I play two points, there is no reason to think that you can win the fight before the engineer comes to help, neither that you can reliably hold them as the engineer can just come and decap those nodes as much as he do on the close point.
As long as you left a node to your enemy without fighting, you have lost. Period.
The enemy is making points out of that node, you are not.

I don’t know how you can say that completely avoid the node in which the engineer is on can be a good tactic and it is a valid proof of Engineer being fine. It’s like saying that if there were a godmode profession it would be fine because you can just avoid to engage it. Working as intended.
How stupid is that?

sorrow.2364:

I don’t know how you can say that completely avoid the node in which the engineer is on can be a good tactic and it is a valid proof of Engineer being fine. It’s like saying that if there were a godmode profession it would be fine because you can just avoid to engage it. Working as intended.
How stupid is that?

Now you’re just reading too much into what was written. In no way did I present those comments as proof that the engineer is fine. They were presented as an alternate strategy for dealing with the current state.

Here’s the comments again from Yamsandjams that promoted this tangent:

“Another way to deal with a decap engg is just to ignore it. If they want to take your home point on rot on the node, let them. Now you can play for the other two points and fight the enemies 5v4. The decap engg then has to choose whether to abandon their node or leave their team at a disadvantage. If they leave their node, it can be backcapped. These “bad players” you speak of will likely just sit around and not contribute much to their team since they’ll only be thinking of pressuring the enemy home node, then perhaps blame the rest of the team if they lose.

Additionally, both teams could employ the same strategy with this sort of engg, so it would have somewhat of an equalizing effect.

So even though this build can be a strong asset, it will largely depend on the rest of your team. If your team can’t maintain control of the other two nodes effectively, then being a decap engg won’t allow you to win anything."

This is the nature of games. Those who find ways to hack the unwritten rules imposed by convention will win, like Arthur Chu hacking Jeopardy. This is how meta changes. Adapt or lose. This isn’t to say that there isn’t something out of line with a decap engi build, only to say that it preventing you from implementing your usual node cap strategies is not a valid reason to nerf it.

Chaba.5410:

Now you’re just reading too much into what was written. In no way did I present those comments as proof that the engineer is fine. They were presented as an alternate strategy for dealing with the current state.

Here’s the comments again from Yamsandjams that promoted this tangent:

“Another way to deal with a decap engg is just to ignore it. If they want to take your home point on rot on the node, let them. Now you can play for the other two points and fight the enemies 5v4. The decap engg then has to choose whether to abandon their node or leave their team at a disadvantage. If they leave their node, it can be backcapped. These “bad players” you speak of will likely just sit around and not contribute much to their team since they’ll only be thinking of pressuring the enemy home node, then perhaps blame the rest of the team if they lose.

Additionally, both teams could employ the same strategy with this sort of engg, so it would have somewhat of an equalizing effect.

So even though this build can be a strong asset, it will largely depend on the rest of your team. If your team can’t maintain control of the other two nodes effectively, then being a decap engg won’t allow you to win anything."

Of course decap engi isn’t OP to the point that he can carry a whole team by himself, but moderately skilled players with a decap engi are more likely to win against moderately skilled players without decap engi.

The simple fact that the only reasonable counter is to just avoid to contest a node against him says that something is horribly wrong about that build.

Decap isn’t that difficult, even you spec DPS build can decap node, since bunker can’t kill a DPS easily. There’s a lot of unpredictable CC skills, for example:
-Pull: Into the Void (mes)
-Push: Shield of Absorption(guard), Rifle Butt, Kick(war), Point Blank Shot(ranger), Illusionary Wave(mes)
-Fear: Reaper’s Mark, Doom(necro), Fear me(war)

The problem should be you can’t kill a bunker easily, even it’s in a 2v1 situation, much harder than dealing with a decap DPS. I’ve tried decap ranger and decap warrior, since they got almost same amounts of short-cooldown push skills and have potential to play as a bunker, especially warrior, they got really strong passive heal now. I still got the result as a decap engi can do, decap/cap it, escape and heal, run back and deacp again.

So, the issue is really clear, is decap engi too tough to kill? Imo, engi is still easier to be killed than a bunker guard or a bunker warrior, maybe AR is too good while fighting a condition build.

I thought the idea of transfer conditions may make Surprise Shot too strong, since it’s a instant skill with only 7.5~10 secs cooldown. The idea of using toolbelt skills to clean conditions is good, but it’s Alchemy trait line. Maybe we can change AR to a stronger EG-related trait, like Juggernaut to FT, and for example:
1. Clean 2 condition every 10 secs while you equip EG, you also can swap to EG while you need clean conditions.
2. Use Super Elixir automatically while you suffer from 5 stacks bleeding, burning, confusion, or torment, 20 secs cooldown. It’s a healing circle, so you need to force engi leave the circle to counter. It matches the concept that engineers are good in take control of an area.
3. Use Toss Elixir R automatically you are downed, 60 secs cooldown, and you can clean a condition every 3 secs while standing in a light field. This trait is similar to Circle of Life(ranger), since rally also clean conditions. And with this trait, you can use EG to keep clean conditions, and live longer in a team fight with teammates’ support. (Or die easily from AoE spam when you try to stay in a light field.)
4. Fumigate affects you as well now.

Maybe we can combine them, like 1+2, or 2+4, it won’t be too strong since it becomes a skill-binding grandmaster triat. And you can play more actively, stay in a circle, or use skill to clean conditions, even it’s in PvE/WvW, so you won’t feel it fixed just because too strong in PvP.

The class has already too many kit traits as it is. No need to add another one of those, and especially in a grandmaster slot.

Marsuew.8216:

Maybe we can change AR to a stronger EG-related trait, like Juggernaut to FT, and for example:
1. Clean 2 condition every 10 secs while you equip EG, you also can swap to EG while you need clean conditions.
2. Use Super Elixir automatically while you suffer from 5 stacks bleeding, burning, confusion, or torment, 20 secs cooldown. It’s a healing circle, so you need to force engi leave the circle to counter. It matches the concept that engineers are good in take control of an area.
3. Use Toss Elixir R automatically you are downed, 60 secs cooldown, and you can clean a condition every 3 secs while standing in a light field. This trait is similar to Circle of Life(ranger), since rally also clean conditions. And with this trait, you can use EG to keep clean conditions, and live longer in a team fight with teammates’ support. (Or die easily from AoE spam when you try to stay in a light field.)
4. Fumigate affects you as well now.

The class already has way too many percentage HP and crit-proc based RNG effects. But making AR Elixir Gun specific merely makes Engineer want to run EG at the cost of other builds.

Any change to AR needs to be:

• Relatively build agnostic
• (Hopefully) promoting a skill floor
• Strong for its position – Automated Response is, after all, a Grandmaster trait
• Removing the problem at the source – that is, Condition Immunity

Your proposals merely make AR the next Grenadier for Engineer; whilst removing the potential for a strong counter-condition trait that works for more builds.

As for Automated Reponse being tied to Toolbelt skills and Surprise Shot interaction – that is what ICDs are there for. Even so, any ICD over 10 seconds will be unacceptable for AR as it would then make AR unacceptably weak for a Grandmaster trait. Transmute being left at 15 seconds would be fine. 1 converted condition every 15 seconds using cooldowns is hardly overpowering – it may even be too weak – as you are casting and using cooldowns. But going off on a tangent to turn AR into the Grenadier equivalent for Elixir Gun isn’t going to make the trait Good, but not Overpowered.

So much problems caused by such a niche build. A build designed to just annoy people in a gamemode that involves not to many players, and standing on fairly small capture zones to win.

A build that is useless in pve and wvw. A build that would lose effectiveness if more players are involved or cap points are larger. A build that wouldnt work in most gametypes, if new gametypes were finally ever added.

And now we’re trying to come up with some big changes just for the sake of this one-trick pony build. All because we know that arenanet is just going to punish all engineers, across every gamemode, for this builds existance.
Meanwhile other professions run dominant across all the gamemodes.

Profession balance is such a kittening joke.

And so are conditions, the design of conditions. Overhaul how conditions work and you will fix a lot of these problems. Instead of trying to single out one thing at a time, just go to the source: The unbelieveably poor design behind Conditions.

Marsuew.8216:

decap warrior

What. Warrior decap CC abilities are… well, “pretty bad” is close enough.

Terrahero.9358:

And now we’re trying to come up with some big changes just for the sake of this one-trick pony build. All because we know that arenanet is just going to punish all engineers, across every gamemode, for this builds existance.
Meanwhile other professions run dominant across all the gamemodes.

Profession balance is such a kittening joke.

It wouldn’t even be the first time it happens. Old juggernaut/flamethrower, old kit refinement…

I don’t see automated response going away anytime soon guys. They just added a similar mechanic to elementalists, so by ANET it’s fine.

And to be honest, AR is not a priority by a longshot in the balancing list. If timed right, a terrormance can cut you right through AR, and i don’t want to start talking about warriors and what they can do to you, with or without AR.

A priority would be to fix game modes adding something that doesn’t revolve around running in circle on a point kiting things..that would make decappers disappear and solve the problem at its root. I can’t really believe that after 1 year and a half we’re still stuck with conquest..

You realize if someone is stacking passive healing you can poison them to reduce the healing amount right? And the engineer’s grandmaster AR immunity trait doesn’t remove existing conditions. If you dump a bunch of conditions on them and they drop below 25%, it only affects new incoming conditions. You should be able to burn through the rest of their health once it’s that low.

There are too many people in here making the assumption that the trait cleanses existing conditions and lets the engineer (or elementalist) run away freely. Nope. That’s wrong. Cripple them before it kicks in, tag them with conditions to keep them in combat. If the target retreats they’ve lost the capture point anyway. Don’t argue mechanics if you don’t actually understand how they work. Surprise-surprise, you actually have to think in order to counter a grandmaster trait.

On top of that, I emphasize again that it’s a grandmaster trait. Grandmaster traits are strong. All of the traits in that category are strong. Compare AR to other grandmaster traits across all professions and you see that it’s in a good place. And hey, if a grandmaster trait specifically designed to counter condition builds is good against condition builds, then why is that wrong? If you fight someone who is specifically designed to defeat you, then accept your defeat with grace.

isendel.5049:

I can’t really believe that after 1 year and a half we’re still stuck with conquest..

I can.

If there are split game modes, it will distribute the population between them, meaning it’s harder to find people to play with, meaning longer queues and less matches. Or people will just decide they don’t like a game mode, and then all that work goes to waste. Conquest gives a purpose to both offensive and defensive oriented builds, and necessitates strategic positioning and targeting. People keep saying they want deathmatch, but all that devolves into is people balling into one group and just trying to spike down enemies one by one.

Manuhell.2759:

Assuming that the “automated” theme would still be maintained,what about a buffed-up version of Purity?
In short, “lose 1 condition every 5s” (it would have half the cooldown of Purity, but that’s an adept trait after all).
It would be automated, should be worthly of a grandmaster trait and while strong versus conditions, it doesn’t grant straight immunity.

Regarding Transmute, the suggestion to tie it to the toolbelt is nice too.

A buffed-up version of purity could possibly work, although the health threshold would either have to be removed or made much higher than it currently is.

I was thinking another thing they could do to AR, if the devs did want to change it, would be to only reduce the duration of damaging conditions. That way, the engineer can’t really be killed by the conditions, but they can still be controlled by them. Power-based builds can still apply vulnerability, weakness can be applied to reduce their damage, blind would hamper their attacks, and cripple, chill, immob, and fear could be used to control them. This would provide some counters to a decap engg since you would still have a better chance of preventing their decaps with those conditions, even though you might not be able to directly kill them with conditions while they’re in the AR state.

I don’t think tying transmute to the tool belt is that great an idea. It would give certain builds much stronger condition removal, and make other builds have vastly inferior condition removal. In an elixir-focused build, this is essentially making every toss elixir removing 2 conditions, meaning an engineer could easily remove 6 conditions in a few seconds while still having condition removal available. Even with just elixir H and B alone, that’s essentially a condition every 12 second on the toss utilities alone, then a few more on the actual elixirs.

One of the main disadvantages to transmute currently is that you have no control over what condition it negates. So if you get hit with 1 stack of bleed, your transmute procs on that, and you are then vulnerable to more harmful conditions. The way to counter this as someone fighting the engineer is not to open up with things like fear or immobilize. It’s the same principle as a guardian’s aegis. You don’t open up with a massive skill while they still have aegis up, you pop it with an auto attack and then do it. So while it’s nice for the engineer to simply get the passive removal, the tradeoff is that they can’t control what it protects them against.

On the other hand, build that like to run things like flamethrower and elixir gun would get shafted because they would have to pop stun breakers or long cooldown offensive abilities just to remove their conditions, forfeiting a lot of control of the match to the opponent.

It’s a build vulnerable to mixed damage. As almost every engineer goes, it’s weak to cc, so you can abuse that to get them off the point even if you can’t kill them. Similar Guardian specs have existed for a long time, trading some passive survivability and cc for reliable stability.

Overall, I’m fine with the power level of the build, beyond Automated Response. That’s always been a broken trait and needs to be changed.

…I’d also like it if traits like Adrenal Healing / Backpack Regenerator required more active management, like the old Kit Refinement. Alas, this will never happen. Automated Response will receive a knee-jerk nerf into the ground to make it beyond useless. The boon strip from Mine Field will be removed for good measure. Cheap traits that provide incredibly powerful passive effects will remain in the game.

Bumping this thread due to recent events. Read the OP before posting please.

Summary of added notes
Health income sources:

• Normal regeneration is ~350hp/s
• Backpack regeneration is ~150hp/s
• Bomb healing is ~350hp/per bomb
• Super Elixir is ~340hp/s (only if elixir gun)
• Condition Immunity from 25% = ~4000HP`

List of CC’s found in different decap builds:

• Rifle: Overcharged Shot (Most common)
• Rifle: Net Shot (Most common)
• Bombkit: Big ol’ Bomb (Not very effective because usually they are running small bombs)
• Flametrower: Air Blast (Effective but people found it more rewarding to run Throw Mine recently)
• Accelerant-Packed Turrets (If two turrets are used and especially thumper turret this provides allot of cc)
• Thumper turret
• Throw Mine (Boon strip = bye bye stability)

I´ve been maining engineer since december 2012. I love the class because of its build-in whackiness, the cc-tye gameplay and of course explosions :P
Though I love the profession overall I really can´t stand decap builds. They´re simply no fun to play. Especially when the build gets mostly countered by bugs.

I´ve read the OP and must disagree with one thing: Decap engineers are not unkillable. I can think of at least one build that can reliable kill a decap engi 1v1 in a comparably small amount of time. Though it is highly unviable in the current meta.
Also heard from a few condi warriors that they could kill a condi engi… Not confirmed yet.

My guess is that it will open a lot more counters to decap engineers if AR was changed/removed. Seriously, noone likes that trait
They should change AR to something more active or at least make it not give complete condi immunity.

Skill-wise it´s really hard to balance the engineers knockbacks without heavily hitting its profession purpose (area denial) or its power builds.
Especially rifle is a highly needed crutch for many engineer powerbuilds to set their burst up.

Another option would be to reduce engineers healsources or reduce the scaling of healing power. But I can´t see this happening as it seems that Anet wants engineer to remain a knockback-bunker-ish thing that sits on a point and… area denial… duh. No, really on most patches I can think of engineer´s healing coefficients were buffed.
(When kitrefinement was removed super elixirs heal coefficient was increased by 100%, the healing turret change, bomb healing coefficient change +50%, backpack regenerator coefficient change)

No, let´s be honest. High survivability and knockbacks just don´t go well together in a point-capture mode. Outside of that its… ridiculously useless.
So if I had the possibility to take it into my hands I´d change back most of the coefficients to their original state and try to make a cc/burst roamer happen.
Why?
Let´s be honest, a damage roamer that actively needs its knockbacks for its burst and defense (and needs to actually time them well and not just randomly pushing someone off point and staying alive) is way more fun to play.

In other words: I´d try to make a 30/10/0/0/30 (turret knockback, static discharge + new explosion line trait) burst build happen
Why?
For the glory of whackiness of course!