Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

lazycalm.5186:

Hold the phone.

People are actually complaining about Necros in PvP?
The condibombers in condi meta, oneshotsignet, two lives Necros?

No wonder PvP is in the state it is atm.

You do realize Necromancers are heavily falling out of the meta, right? We’re not debating hotjoin heroes here, this is about high tier viability, and as of right now it just doesn’t really exist.

I think he doesn’t …

Abimes.9726:

Bhawb.7408:

lazycalm.5186:

Hold the phone.

People are actually complaining about Necros in PvP?
The condibombers in condi meta, oneshotsignet, two lives Necros?

No wonder PvP is in the state it is atm.

You do realize Necromancers are heavily falling out of the meta, right? We’re not debating hotjoin heroes here, this is about high tier viability, and as of right now it just doesn’t really exist.

I think he doesn’t …

I think he called Signet of Spite “oneshotsignet”, I guess because 2 stacks of bleeding and some poison constitutes getting one-shot in GW2.

I wouldn’t assume much realization is occurring.

Tim.6450:

The conditon necromancer has to either take a staff or take a scepterand spam auto attacks.

Which is anyway the most common weapon choices out there for condition builds and even power build because of Staff.

Tim.6450:

Cleave is AOE, a small cone but still AOE. So technically bleed and burn are AOE.

We aren’t arguing for the sake of arguing, right?

Tim.6450:

Yes it is, a shorter cooldowns means that it can used more often which means that are is a bigger chance the enemy has no defences left. Which means it is more reliable.
Also about LOS staff has LOS problems with marks, see attachments.

Not really.
A competent player knows what skill to dodge and what don’t. You can afford to eat some Fan of Fire or Smoldering Arrow, but you really want to dodge Pin Down and Arcing Arrow which are, guess what, the skills with the bigger telegraph. Any profession with no endurance traits or vigor can easily dodge both and you can make LB half useless.

What about staff? 3 of the marks have pretty much the same animation. How can you know that the mark which is coming is a MoB, which you can afford to take, or a Chilblains, that you really don’t want it to hit you? You can’t.

That’s what I mean when I say that casting a skill isn’t like flipping a coin.

Also, LoS problems of staff are situational at best. The situation in the screenshot is made up.

Tim.6450:

First the basic principle of high level pvp is apparantly on point combat which is melee range, so in pvp it is very reliable. It is also has 10% more range. Also torch in incendintary powder have around same uptime of burning.

Actually, the basic principle of high level PvP is knowing when to stay on points and when to not stay on them.

When you’re stepping on a node, you’re exposing yourself to AoE and cleave and it isn’t really something you want to do that lightly. If you want to stay on a node long enough without dying to AoE and cleave in teamfights you have to run the proper build. That’s why most competent team just have a single guy on a node (usually the guardian) and all the others away from it.
On the other hand, you don’t have to worry about cleave and AoE if you are away from the fight at a safe distance.

Bhawb.7408:

You do realize Necromancers are heavily falling out of the meta, right? We’re not debating hotjoin heroes here, this is about high tier viability, and as of right now it just doesn’t really exist.

I don’t know what meta are you talking about.
In EU, Necromancers are far from being out of meta in high tier PvP for what I can tell. Maybe they are in NA, who knows. Do you play in NA?

I play in NA, and NA has always had more Necros than EU. EU has a very anti-Necro meta, with all high level teams heavily focusing on rotations (which Necros can’t do well) over straight up fighting, and also have historically had very heavy anti-condi team comps with huge condition cleansing.

In soloQ I’m sure there are still Necros, there are also a few still on teams, but overall Necros just aren’t as strong in competitive play.

Bhawb.7408:

I play in NA, and NA has always had more Necros than EU. EU has a very anti-Necro meta, with all high level teams heavily focusing on rotations (which Necros can’t do well) over straight up fighting, and also have historically had very heavy anti-condi team comps with huge condition cleansing.

In soloQ I’m sure there are still Necros, there are also a few still on teams, but overall Necros just aren’t as strong in competitive play.

TeamQ is competitive. Some might say that SoloQ is competitive too, but this is arguable.
What I’m reading there is something like “yeah, there are necros on teams, but there is no necro left”.
Many teams still run necro, they are nowhere a rare sight as they used to be pre-July patch or like Elementalist before the feature pack.

The fact that some teams focus on rotations does not mean anyone do that, nor that an heavy mobile team can’t have a Necro too in their team comp to supply more damage in teamfights.

@sorrow

Even if you consider necro damage being ok , you can’t compare it to the new meta war might stacking which is insanely bigger … and if it’s not, it’s insanely more tanky with soldier gear … and sustainable (thinking of the Soldier evicerate war which was played in TOL).

Now i’d really like to see how you are going do defend the lack of sustain of necro who don’t wan’t to lose most of his burst damage … (see previous post)

And how you can out rotate à team with a necro in it , and don’t tell me necro is going to roam fast enough between 2 points vs à high mob team and you just have to keep your points … by doing that each fight will finish out numbered.

You’r just bringing back the same thing over and over comparing the effectiveness of some skills … but in team fights you don’t have 200 dodges to dodge pin down , A Arrow , and all the other stuff going around… And in that case Short CD’s are bether than high CD’s cause at one moment you’ll be able to land them … even if it’s one the second try ( which is still faster than à 45 sec CD)

Necro Is ok in small scales fights 1v1 , 2v2 cause he can evade the damage by stunt breaking / dodging , like any class … but on large scale you have 0 access to vigor , low dodges if you wan’t to get proc of energy sigil you have to switch on staff for exemple ( staff is awesome , just the auto , sucks a bit ) but staff is very situational and you don’t wan’t to get stuck 10 sec with it , you have no way to negate the damage , unless you sacrifice a full DS bar which leave you with near 0 burst ability ( and don’t tell me pls the 8 easy dispellable bleeds stacks you proc with some AOE is gonna push a lot of damage it’s near war’s burn with it’s AOE and some stacks of might)

Anyway like i said previously it’s not all about necro , it’s about the whole balance (check the link in my previous post)

I’m finding this discussion on staff rather amusing, as if it is some powerful weapon. Necros take it because of some utility on the long cooldowns of staff 4 and 5, and then perhaps staff 3 for the chill, but mark of blood was nerfed to not being much of a threat at all and it never did much damage for power builds. Staff can be ok for condi because of traited fear, but it’s an overall underwhelming weapon IMO.

Staff has to be taken, no matter what, you have no choice because its the only other condi weapon we have.

Bhawb.7408:

Staff has to be taken, no matter what, you have no choice because its the only other condi weapon we have.

Right, it’s there because axe and dagger are worse choices, and it’s still better than taking an offhand warhorn or focus. But it’s not a super special weapon that you want for much more than the 10 seconds you get on a swap.

Abimes.9726:

@sorrow

Even if you consider necro damage being ok , you can’t compare it to the new meta war might stacking which is insanely bigger … and if it’s not, it’s insanely more tanky with soldier gear … and sustainable (thinking of the Soldier evicerate war which was played in TOL).

I’ve already spoken about the warrior comparison, saying that it is pointless.

Nobody here has denied that Warriors require futher tuning, but the fact that Warriors are much easier to play and a little bit too strong at the moment isn’t a justification to give Necromancers unneeded buffs, nor to dumb down the gameplay to match Warrior easiness.

Abimes.9726:

And how you can out rotate à team with a necro in it , and don’t tell me necro is going to roam fast enough between 2 points vs à high mob team and you just have to keep your points … by doing that each fight will finish out numbered.

I’ve never said that a necro is supposed to roam, but I’ve said that you can afford to slot one.
Necro never had insane mobility, nor do guardian or spirit ranger, but people keep slotting them because mobility isn’t everything.

Abimes.9726:

You’r just bringing back the same thing over and over comparing the effectiveness of some skills … but in team fights you don’t have 200 dodges to dodge pin down , A Arrow , and all the other stuff going around… And in that case Short CD’s are bether than high CD’s cause at one moment you’ll be able to land them … even if it’s one the second try ( which is still faster than à 45 sec CD)

Pin Down is just one on 25s cooldown. If you’re random dodging wasting your endurance on autoattacks and worthless skills, then you played bad.
I thought we were talking about high level PvP, right?

Abimes.9726:

Necro Is ok in small scales fights 1v1 , 2v2 cause he can evade the damage by stunt breaking / dodging , like any class … but on large scale you have 0 access to vigor , low dodges if you wan’t to get proc of energy sigil you have to switch on staff for exemple ( staff is awesome , just the auto , sucks a bit ) but staff is very situational and you don’t wan’t to get stuck 10 sec with it , you have no way to negate the damage , unless you sacrifice a full DS bar which leave you with near 0 burst ability ( and don’t tell me pls the 8 easy dispellable bleeds stacks you proc with some AOE is gonna push a lot of damage it’s near war’s burn with it’s AOE and some stacks of might)

Staff is not situational, it is extremely solid.
It has utilities to cope with any situations, with a fair supplement of DS skills.
It is not only about damage, but also about the shutdowns.

About large fights, you are not supposed to stay on a node but to stay as far as possible dealing damage on the node. If you get team focus on you (as it usually happens), you have tools to survive a fair amount of time and you eventually get downed if you team can’t put enough pressure on the enemy team too. But this is what happens with any other profession.

Burning with mightstacks deals about 500-600 DPS, not that much to outperform on a condition build if you consider that a single MoB outputs about 220 DPS.

sorrow.2364:

Abimes.9726:

@sorrow

Even if you consider necro damage being ok , you can’t compare it to the new meta war might stacking which is insanely bigger … and if it’s not, it’s insanely more tanky with soldier gear … and sustainable (thinking of the Soldier evicerate war which was played in TOL).

I’ve already spoken about the warrior comparison, saying that it is pointless.

Nobody here has denied that Warriors require futher tuning, but the fact that Warriors are much easier to play and a little bit too strong at the moment isn’t a justification to give Necromancers unneeded buffs, nor to dumb down the gameplay to match Warrior easiness.

Abimes.9726:

And how you can out rotate à team with a necro in it , and don’t tell me necro is going to roam fast enough between 2 points vs à high mob team and you just have to keep your points … by doing that each fight will finish out numbered.

I’ve never said that a necro is supposed to roam, but I’ve said that you can afford to slot one.
Necro never had insane mobility, nor do guardian or spirit ranger, but people keep slotting them because mobility isn’t everything.

Abimes.9726:

You’r just bringing back the same thing over and over comparing the effectiveness of some skills … but in team fights you don’t have 200 dodges to dodge pin down , A Arrow , and all the other stuff going around… And in that case Short CD’s are bether than high CD’s cause at one moment you’ll be able to land them … even if it’s one the second try ( which is still faster than à 45 sec CD)

Pin Down is just one on 25s cooldown. If you’re random dodging wasting your endurance on autoattacks and worthless skills, then you played bad.
I thought we were talking about high level PvP, right?

Abimes.9726:

Necro Is ok in small scales fights 1v1 , 2v2 cause he can evade the damage by stunt breaking / dodging , like any class … but on large scale you have 0 access to vigor , low dodges if you wan’t to get proc of energy sigil you have to switch on staff for exemple ( staff is awesome , just the auto , sucks a bit ) but staff is very situational and you don’t wan’t to get stuck 10 sec with it , you have no way to negate the damage , unless you sacrifice a full DS bar which leave you with near 0 burst ability ( and don’t tell me pls the 8 easy dispellable bleeds stacks you proc with some AOE is gonna push a lot of damage it’s near war’s burn with it’s AOE and some stacks of might)

Staff is not situational, it is extremely solid.
It has utilities to cope with any situations, with a fair supplement of DS skills.
It is not only about damage, but also about the shutdowns.

About large fights, you are not supposed to stay on a node but to stay as far as possible dealing damage on the node. If you get team focus on you (as it usually happens), you have tools to survive a fair amount of time and you eventually get downed if you team can’t put enough pressure on the enemy team too. But this is what happens with any other profession.

Burning with mightstacks deals about 500-600 DPS, not that much to outperform on a condition build if you consider that a single MoB outputs about 220 DPS.

Burning with might stacks deals more damage in a power build than staff’s main source of dps, and staff is a solid weapon? In what world are these things comparable? And then you say that staff is ok because we have DS? Just making sure I understand your points here…

This is a fact, Necro can’t dodge everything in team fights (kind of normal) , it have 2-3 dodges + 1 stunt breaker (or 2 in some rare situations) , dodge wars skills you’ll get hit by burst or some other CC and LF can’t temporise as much than any block or invulnerability or a teleport and if it does it let you with no possibility to respond the damage.

“About large fights, you are not supposed to stay on a node but to stay as far as possible dealing damage on the node.”

Fact, I think any competitive players know that , but if you wan’t to land your burst at one moment or another you’ll have to land your dark path or at least get into 600u range to land your burst.

Fact, And actually the bow ticks are more around 600 than 500 in team fights due to the other might source … and yeah the MoB + Chillbains = like 500 …

DON’T FORGET THE RULES :

Discuss, don’t argue.* If you think a change may cause issues, say why and give examples. Try not to argue with others – make your point and then accept that other people may have different points of view.

Roe.3679:

Burning with might stacks deals more damage in a power build than staff’s main source of dps, and staff is a solid weapon? In what world are these things comparable? And then you say that staff is ok because we have DS? Just making sure I understand your points here…

Burning with Might stacks deals more damage that a single cast of MoB, though you can stack bleeds from 2 stacks of it. Then there is poison, fear and the eventual conditions you’re transfering through putrid mark.
I haven’t said staff is a solid weapon because of the damage output, but because of the utility and the other conditions it provides. Nor I’ve said that staff is a solid weapon because of DS.

Abimes.9726:

This is a fact, Necro can’t dodge everything in team fights (kind of normal) , it have 2-3 dodges + 1 stunt breaker (or 2 in some rare situations) , dodge wars skills you’ll get hit by burst or some other CC and LF can’t temporise as much than any block or invulnerability or a teleport and if it does it let you with no possibility to respond the damage.

“About large fights, you are not supposed to stay on a node but to stay as far as possible dealing damage on the node.”

Fact, I think any competitive players know that , but if you wan’t to land your burst at one moment or another you’ll have to land your dark path or at least get into 600u range to land your burst.

Fact, And actually the bow ticks are more around 600 than 500 in team fights due to the other might source … and yeah the MoB + Chillbains = like 500 …

If you get team focus, you will for sure getting hit multiple times and this is the situation when you want to use Plague, Protection, Flesh Wurm or some spectral skills while in Death Shroud.

If you’re on a teamfight, you either minimize the amount of time you are on a node or simply avoid to use dark path. If you do so, you can apply a considerable amount of conditions staying at scepter range or even at Staff range.

Actually, Burning + 25 stacks of might without any extra condition damage is 547 dps.
Two MoB stacking with each other are 440 dps.

Ok we made this topic to have some discussion about necro , his mechanic , how we fit to the state pf the game , how he interacts to other profesion and how other profesions interacts on necro. Ofc we wanted to focus on top tier pvp where ofc things like support/minion necro just dont work.

1st few words to sorrow.2364 , hey man , when i see your posts i know u dont have much expirience about necro and his mechanic and some of your words are right but sry most is not. I feel your statments are based on build editor.

Necro was never in worst situation when it come to balance in general i would say its the less power creeped class in game , since realese every single class is getting buffs , even we see some nerfs to shot down some OP builds at the end there is always smt that was buffed to much. Necro before dhumfire in my opion was one of the most balanced profesions in thegame next to guardian , for a long time other profesions were getting buffs to thier sustain/dmg etc and what necro got? Some bug fixes. Then we had dhumfire patch witch completly changed necro from balanced class witch was uderpowerd becouse of the power creep into walking spaming condi class witch was able to kill everything. Did we asked for this? No. We asked for more sutain , for more ways to deal with focus. And what happend since that patch to the last patch? We got copletly nefred from our condi dmg , 1 bleed less here , 1 bleed less there and 1 there , fear dmg nerfed , weakness duration nerfed , our best defensive trait nerfed , putrid mark completly nerfed and at the end they nerfed dhumfire witch now is usless becouse as a condi necro u lach lf regen and u cant just spam autoattack and hope that anything will cross the LOS before u life blast will hit the target its just not worth using. Our DS as a sustain? Sry but its should be that but its not working. Positioning u say? Sry but atm u can take some highground or smt and still thief gonna jump u , still mesmer will be able to deal ton of dmg from ranger , still war can drop 1 AOE on u . In last patch necro was the only class who got nerfed and its not only change to dhumfire but also runes changes/amulet changes witch just buffed eles,engis,wars….
I dont see any such good runes for necro as streanght runes for war/eles or balthazar runes for engi .

And plz stop comparing necro to wars witch are completly over the top with perma 25 stacks of might , high hp , high toughnes and much more.

We want to make necro fit to the game mode , we dont ask to get everything , mobility/dmg/sustain etc….

We made this topic to write some feedback and discuss about it and the only thing i see is Sorrow trying to say necro is fine, Yeah on paper it looks ok , but in reality its completly diffrent. If this topic will look like it looks now i would rather have it closed .

Forsaker.9213:

snip

This post is full of false statements and inaccuracies.

1. Dhuumfire patch is not the only buff patch followed by several nerfs. Necromancer received several buffs to both damage and sustain. Terror, Spectral Wall, Death Magic minor traits, Vital Persistence, Spectral Armor working while in Death Shroud, weakness change, DS damage bug, Spectral Wall and Signet of Spite are all buff to (condition) Necromancer, but you purposely listed only the nerfs to make it look like Necromancer is the underdog class forgotten by ArenaNet. Necromancer is a far better profession as it used to be a year (and an half) ago. Stop pretending it is not.

2. I’ve never started to compare Necro to Warr. This is the 4th or 5th time I’m trying to say that. Perhaps you should read my posts.

3. DS is sustain and can eat a considerable amunt of damage with enough LF generation. You can say it doesn’t as you want, but it works as sustain.

4. You are going to take damage and team focus anyway, I’ve never denied that, but you have tools to mitigate it and a team to protect you in teamfight situations.
You’re making it look like a single thief, a Warrior AoE or mesmer autoattack can down you in a matter of seconds.

5. Nightmare runes were buffed. 2s (+fear/condi duration) automated fear? Yeah, kind of bad. Again, don’t take clear imbalances as an excuse to buff a profession more than needed. The fact that Strenght or Balthazar runes are too much does not mean that ANet should give Necro an equivalent toy to abuse.

You talk about “reality”, forsaker, but you have no real arguments, to be honest. Necromancer fits the role of teamfighter and it is doing well. You’re asking ANet to change the design philosophy of the profession to fit your wills because you don’t seem to be happy with it, or you’re just joining the “buff me” cries that you can see coming from any single profession players.

1. Yes u are right that are buffs , spectral wall not vaible , death magic trait are ok but dont bring to much , VP only for power build witch are not vaible , spectral armor was changed and the inernal cd makes it worse , weaknes change was a buff but at the same time our eaknes duration was hard reduced and weaknes shroud got nerfed , SoS is just cheese , but still this is nothing compered to the nerfs becouse at the same time every other profesions got more sustain , more condi clear etc.

2. Most of this topic is about warrior and his skills idk why but w/e

3. No DS is not sustain , it should be but its not working , full ds can be taken down in 3s , u can be cc in it , u cant get any heals , every class has a “gimme a sec to breathe for a little bit” type of skill necro dont and we should be attriction class?

4. Good thief + mesmer can easy kill u whereever u are and still able to disangade.

5. Nightmare runes and rnd prock , yeas this what necro needs , i dont want runes like strenght or balthazar but at the same time i dont want them to be in game.

And i am done disuss with someone who dont know the game and have no clue about hight tier pvp. Cya.

Shame this topic went on that track.

Forsaker.9213:

1. Yes u are right that are buffs , spectral wall not vaible , death magic trait are ok but dont bring to much , VP only for power build witch are not vaible , spectral armor was changed and the inernal cd makes it worse , weaknes change was a buff but at the same time our eaknes duration was hard reduced and weaknes shroud got nerfed , SoS is just cheese , but still this is nothing compered to the nerfs becouse at the same time every other profesions got more sustain , more condi clear etc.

2. Most of this topic is about warrior and his skills idk why but w/e

3. No DS is not sustain , it should be but its not working , full ds can be taken down in 3s , u can be cc in it , u cant get any heals , every class has a “gimme a sec to breathe for a little bit” type of skill necro dont and we should be attriction class?

4. Good thief + mesmer can easy kill u whereever u are and still able to disangade.

5. Nightmare runes and rnd prock , yeas this what necro needs , i dont want runes like strenght or balthazar but at the same time i dont want them to be in game.

And i am done disuss with someone who dont know the game and have no clue about hight tier pvp. Cya.

Shame this topic went on that track.

1. Spectral Wall not viable? Reason? VP only for power build? Why? Any other profession have more sustain? More condi clear? Really? You’re just making wild claims here without any reasoning behind them.

3. Full DS taken down in 3s? Oh, well, if you say so… Mind you to share which team comp/build can wipe 13k+ HP with 2500+ armor in 3s against a competent player?

4. I wouldn’t call 50% trigger chance on hit RNG proc. If you don’t want runes like Strength or Balthazar, why are you using them in an argument to get buffs for Necromancers?

It is funny how you claim I have no clue of high tier PvP while you don’t bring a single real reasoning backing up your wild claims.
I guess it is pointless to argue with someone who clearly don’t want to have a discussion but just want anyone to agree with him.

What do I have to say to make an impression that I know how high tier PvP works to you?
“yes forsaker, you are extremely right and you know everything about this game and competitive PvP. Give Necromancers mobility, Healing Signet or a trait which heals a similiar amount also while in DS, Berserker Stance and Endure Pain, then revert all the nerfs because this is what Necromancer needs in high tier PvP, which no one has a clue on how it works except you!”
Feels better now?

1. Exacly what i said u have no clue about class u want to discuss. U ask who have more stustain? Every other class , more condi clear? Ele? War? Guardian? Even rangers spec right have ton of condi clear.

3. Read point 1.

4.Where i use them as a argument to get buffs for necro? I said that those rune brought even more power creep and wars/eles/engis got buffed a lot by this.

Show me where i asked for " mobility, Healing Signet or a trait which heals a similiar amount also while in DS, Berserker Stance and Endure Pain"

We want to focus how to change few things (read 1st-2st posts) not how to make necro OP.

Forsaker.9213:

1. Exacly what i said u have no clue about class u want to discuss. U ask who have more stustain? Every other class , more condi clear? Ele? War? Guardian? Even rangers spec right have ton of condi clear.

3. Read point 1.

4.Where i use them as a argument to get buffs for necro? I said that those rune brought even more power creep and wars/eles/engis got buffed a lot by this.

Show me where i asked for " mobility, Healing Signet or a trait which heals a similiar amount also while in DS, Berserker Stance and Endure Pain"

We want to focus how to change few things (read 1st-2st posts) not how to make necro OP.

1. Every other class have more sustain? Like the infamous Mesmer sustain coming from channeling mantras? What about Thieves? Never seen that much sustain. Rangers, then? Oh yeah, all of that sustain coming from regeneration! All 10x better than a profession mechanic that allows you to gain LF that can be used as the equivalent of HP. Ele has sustain only because they heavily spec into it to be viable. Warr and Guardian are supposed to be sustainable as they are the heavy classes.

What about condi clear? Rangers have decent condi clear only when taking survival skills with Survival of the Fittest. Other than that, it is just a bunch of passive and uncontrollable condi clears and a mediocre condi clear on Healing Spring.
Elementalists and Guardians need a GRANDMASTER (yes, grandmaster) trait into defensive traitlines to have decent condition removal.
Necromancers have by far the best condi clear in the game which allows them to not spec for clearing condis nor bringing utilities for it. Consume Conditions+Putrid Mark+Deathly Swarm all clear conditions and don’t require a single trait or utility to be wasted. Then there are traits and skills like Well of Power, Fetid Consumption or Plague Signet, but you don’t need them anyway since weapon skills and healing skill are already more than enough to cleanse conditions.

You still didn’t answer to why SW is unviable and LF is viable only in power builds.

4. Where? Right here:

In last patch necro was the only class who got nerfed and its not only change to dhumfire but also runes changes/amulet changes witch just buffed eles,engis,wars….
I dont see any such good runes for necro as streanght runes for war/eles or balthazar runes for engi .
And plz stop comparing necro to wars witch are completly over the top with perma 25 stacks of might , high hp , high toughnes and much more.

Tell me what is the point of those statements if not to ask for buffs because of broken runes in the game.

Want to know where people asked for “mobility, Healing Signet or a trait which heals a similiar amount also while in DS, Berserker Stance and Endure Pain”? Read the OP or maybe any other post bringing up Endure Pain and Healing Signet as comparison because “if warrior has them, I want too Q_Q”.
OP asked for more mobility, vigor and buffs to leech. Some people went further and asked for some invulnerability which can mitigate the whole team focus like Endure Pain.

I just read 1st point and i am done , man lern few things about game not gonna discuss with u , gl hf.

+1 forsaker

He compares incomparable things … just skip it i’m donne with it to … and if we continue like this the thread is going to get closed.

(Last thing sorry about the 600 u ticks on fire … 547 makes such a difference compared to Mob specced on a condition class which is the main source of damage and does 440 if you can stack it before it get removed… this is really making all the difference !!! You are right , they only should allow necro to have MOB on the staff all the other marks are so OP, remove them plz !)

If you weren’t looking for a constructive discussion but just wanted people to agree with you and ask for buffs, then you should have said that before.

I would have saved a lot of time and words.

I’m sorry for thinking you guys had a brain and some reasoning capability instead of sustaining an argument by just keeping questioning your interlocutor’s competence with no real basis.

I hope your worthless crusade for buffs will find some success.
Maybe, someday, Necro will come back to be the noob-carrying profession anyone is asking for.

Kind of disappointing. You can disagree with sorrow all you want, but as long as he is providing reasonable and healthy discussion, I see no reason to attempt to shut him (or anyone else) down. I’ve done it myself in the past, and all it does is squash out dissenting ideas (hint: disagreement is the only way to have good discussion and get new ideas flowing).

No point in being disrespectful, if you feel you’ve argued your point as best you can, and the other party just isn’t seeing it or is (you feel) ignoring it, just quietly excuse yourself.

History repeats itself.

I think the devs, at some point, just lost the necro in translation.
Nerfs to great mechanics (Putrid Mark) and introduction of cheese have been happening for months now, with almost all the other professions receiving quality of life changes.

Necro lags behind other professions in design department and the balance devs seem to have no clue on how to proceed.

leman.7682:

History repeats itself.

I think the devs, at some point, just lost the necro in translation.
Nerfs to great mechanics (Putrid Mark) and introduction of cheese have been happening for months now, with almost all the other professions receiving quality of life changes.

Necro lags behind other professions in design department and the balance devs seem to have no clue on how to proceed.

I’ve said this a few times, but I think they need to pick out (free or paid) community managers for each profession, whose sole job is to simply conduct discussions in the relevant forums, and then relay the general feedback to the developers. This alleviates the pressure of trying to keep up with 8+ forums, but it helps them connect with a group of players who, combined, can give incredibly useful feedback.

sorrow.2364:

Roe.3679:

Burning with might stacks deals more damage in a power build than staff’s main source of dps, and staff is a solid weapon? In what world are these things comparable? And then you say that staff is ok because we have DS? Just making sure I understand your points here…

Burning with Might stacks deals more damage that a single cast of MoB, though you can stack bleeds from 2 stacks of it. Then there is poison, fear and the eventual conditions you’re transfering through putrid mark.
I haven’t said staff is a solid weapon because of the damage output, but because of the utility and the other conditions it provides. Nor I’ve said that staff is a solid weapon because of DS.

Disclaimer: I don’t care about Warriors and I have no idea why we’re talking about them.

Anyway.

So, 2 casts of a skill are about as strong as one cast from another, so it’s cool? That isn’t very logical to me. And then you say, but staff has all these other skills, too! So does the Longbow. So, a warrior in a power build, who can potentially be far more tanky than a necro, can actually deal more condition damage than a condi specced necro assuming it’s longbow vs staff, and more overall DPS by far with more – or at very least, more hands off – survivability. Staff is chosen because there are no other choices that make any sense for a condi build; not because it is a strong choice.

sorrow.2364:

Staff is not situational, it is extremely solid.
It has utilities to cope with any situations, with a fair supplement of DS skills.

Sounds like you’re saying staff is ok because of DS when you literally say DS supplements the staff.

I find many of your points very weak.

With all the things said in this thread, I think a few tweaks to spectral skills, life force gains on weapons, and overall new weapons that fill roles that the necromancer doesn’t currently fill would help the class more than anything and give it more capable and defined roles. I don’t necessarily think the class is underpowered, nor do I want to see it return to Dhuumfire 1 spam any more than I wanted it the first time. But to argue that necros have sustain is rather flawed. Necros have mitigation through DS, but not sustain, as fights with necros must be ended quickly or the necro loses too much life force and therefore the access to key skills that the class is balanced around, as well as any form of defense.

As stated earlier, Guardians have great sustain through blocks, heals, invulns, etc. Multiple sources of mitigation or healing. Necros have a single source that cannot be renewed as fast as it is spent against any competent player (and against multiple foes it does not scale like many other mitigation skills), let alone at high levels of skill.

It’s been brought up multiple times since launch pretty much, but Necros had this vision of being attrition fighters, and we’re more like a barbarian on an ancient battlefield who overwhelms or is worn down.

leman.7682:

History repeats itself.

I think the devs, at some point, just lost the necro in translation.
Nerfs to great mechanics (Putrid Mark) and introduction of cheese have been happening for months now, with almost all the other professions receiving quality of life changes.

Necro lags behind other professions in design department and the balance devs seem to have no clue on how to proceed.

Been so since beta weekend 2. Tho i think that just before the dhuumfire patch, a dev was on necros for like 2 months doing stuff like pushing DS/downed fix, reducing cooldown of Sarmor, fixing Swalk detection, removing stand still requirements from necro skills, etc

On my engi if I see a necro I have run and hide , hope he doesn’t see me to not get insta killed I’m not a top player but yeah

torgalspu.9074:

On my engi if I see a necro I have run and hide , hope he doesn’t see me to not get insta killed I’m not a top player but yeah

I’m assuming you are a condi engi with no way to deal with condis, yes? I’m not sure of the state of the class, but it sounds like you are making assumptions both ways (that engis have to run condi and necros have to run condi), because that isn’t always the case. When I see an engi coming to put me off home node (MM Necro), I give myself one chance to figure out if they are the AoE crapping engi or not, because if they are there is literally no amount of skill required for them to murder my minions and then me just by rolling their face over the keyboard while running in a circle.

And if the same is true in reverse in certain situations, then we should both have access to mechanics that can give us a chance. If you don’t take reasonably accessible ways to handle certain mechanics, that is your fault, if you don’t have that access, then it is on ANet. Which is the entire point of this thread, that Necromancers can’t give anything up to get the mechanics necessary for us to compete in PvP.

I run pretty tanky with good Condi removal I’m saying necros put out decent damage and can be really tanky

Rather calling for buffs I think necro is fine tone warrior down but I’m a noob I have no valid point

About state of Necromancer in team pvp?
Necro dont have 2 very important abilities to be good here:
1. No Mobility
2. No good defence vs focus fire.

1- no mobility- means:
- you cannot move fast enought from point a to point b or cannot move fast enought with your team,
-you cannot escape fight when going bad,
-you cannot pursuit even half brain pll when he going to lose fight- he use mobility skills to run, you have only swiftness with is not enought to cath him,
- at the end of the day this means when you fight with some other class on 1 vs1 and there come 1 more player:
a) your team player- the enemy has chance to escape and come back with friend,
b) enemy team player- you dead.

This is about have a choice to get chance here or don’t.

2.No good defence vs focus fire- means:
- you are not able to escape from dps train (in ds lf will be eaten in 1, 2 seconds, no invulnerability, no invisibility, no block, no even vigor),
- this mean that as necromancer you are on top on focus fire from enemy team,
- you live not enought to do dps- killing enemys is muth harder when you die
- at the end of the day you will see that play class with atack ability is ok, but have a class with atack/defence ability is better, Because if you play a class in pvp and die there becose of lack of defence abilitys, your atack does not matter here. You dead Robb… go home.

Same here about have a choice to get chance here or don’t.

And my opinion about state of necro in pvp is no mobility= bad, but no moblity + no good defence abilities= veery bad.

I dont tell that this class need a buffs or someting- i just whone tell that this class IN MY OPINION is not good choice on pvp .. for now ofc.

I don’t know if translator doing good work to translate this text, but i hope you understand what i mean

torgalspu.9074:

Rather calling for buffs I think necro is fine tone warrior down but I’m a noob I have no valid point

But this is a valid point, my friend.

When you look at other professions and compare them with the necro it just seem that the devs lacked ideas for it.

Practically every profession has weapon sets with skill sequences that enable more engaging playstyle than what necro one-sided spammable skills give.

Just think about it, why is necro practically the only profession that while fighting with every single weapon set is forced to spam autos? You just unload shutdown/aoe and then are left with nothing but auto-attacking (including Life Blast).

This is a design flaw and there’s no one else to blame but the lazy devs. Wouldn’t be that much of a problem to be honest (everything is fixable), but they won’t even acknowledge that. No excuse there.

Skill sequences, useful innate combos would be the step to fix the necro.
The lazy way of adding 0’s to skills or traits (Dumbfire) is not a professional solution, it should be a placeholder for a well thought-over changes.

Roe.3679:

Disclaimer: I don’t care about Warriors and I have no idea why we’re talking about them.

Anyway.

So, 2 casts of a skill are about as strong as one cast from another, so it’s cool? That isn’t very logical to me. And then you say, but staff has all these other skills, too! So does the Longbow. So, a warrior in a power build, who can potentially be far more tanky than a necro, can actually deal more condition damage than a condi specced necro assuming it’s longbow vs staff, and more overall DPS by far with more – or at very least, more hands off – survivability. Staff is chosen because there are no other choices that make any sense for a condi build; not because it is a strong choice.

I’ve pointed out several times the differences between LB and Staff and why Staff is in my opinion a better weapon.
LB has Combustive Shot as reliable AoE. Other than that, nothing is left except for some strong skills with huge tells which can be easily dodged by competent players.
Staff has several utility skills which might output less DPS on single target than LB overall, but are way more reliable and provide strong utility.
Putrid Mark is a solid condition management tool. Chilblains offers amazing shutdown capability (especially against Elementalists and bunkers) and MoB provides permanent regeneration other than bleeding. All of these can be traited to be unblockable and have pretty much the same, short animation.

Roe.3679:

Sounds like you’re saying staff is ok because of DS when you literally say DS supplements the staff.

I find many of your points very weak.

You’ve misunderstood what I was trying to say. I’ve said that staff is solid and DS provides extra single target capability that staff may lack when you have your secondary weapon set not available.
Every weapon set has strong features along with weak ones and I’m not trying to deny that Staff has its weaknesses. Point is that you can overcome staff weaknesses either with your secondary weapon set or death shroud (which I think it is complementary to staff somehow) or both.

Roe.3679:

With all the things said in this thread, I think a few tweaks to spectral skills, life force gains on weapons, and overall new weapons that fill roles that the necromancer doesn’t currently fill would help the class more than anything and give it more capable and defined roles. I don’t necessarily think the class is underpowered, nor do I want to see it return to Dhuumfire 1 spam any more than I wanted it the first time. But to argue that necros have sustain is rather flawed. Necros have mitigation through DS, but not sustain, as fights with necros must be ended quickly or the necro loses too much life force and therefore the access to key skills that the class is balanced around, as well as any form of defense.

I see that better sustain through buffing LF regen might be a good choice without spoiling the original profession design. It is quite different from asking for vigor, mobility or invulnerabilities as most people are doing here.

You might argue that Necros need better sustain through better LF regeneration, but arguing that Necros have no sustain is a lost argument from the start.

Roe.3679:

As stated earlier, Guardians have great sustain through blocks, heals, invulns, etc. Multiple sources of mitigation or healing. Necros have a single source that cannot be renewed as fast as it is spent against any competent player (and against multiple foes it does not scale like many other mitigation skills), let alone at high levels of skill.

Guardians have to take specific builds to have that kind of sustain. A burst/DPS guardian has no more sustain compared to a standard condition Necromancer.

Necromancers, when specced for sustain, have plenty of it, so do Guardians and any other professions, but you can’t compare a build not specced for sustain with a build specifically made for it.

sorrow.2364:

Necromancers, when specced for sustain, have plenty of it, so do Guardians and any other professions, but you can’t compare a build not specced for sustain with a build specifically made for it.

A full tank wells necro with cleric amulet is not only less tanky than an ele or war, especially under focus fire, but also has a lot less damage. Tested it.

leman.7682:

A full tank wells necro with cleric amulet is not only less tanky than an ele or war, especially under focus fire, but also has a lot less damage. Tested it.

Why Cleric Amulet and Wells Necro? You’ve tried the wrong build.

sorrow.2364:

leman.7682:

A full tank wells necro with cleric amulet is not only less tanky than an ele or war, especially under focus fire, but also has a lot less damage. Tested it.

Why Cleric Amulet and Wells Necro? You’ve tried the wrong build.

The point stays. Can you propose a build that has the sustainability of a warrior or ele or engie and provides similar level of damage/utility?
If you can’t then provide a build that is more sustainable, which would make up for the lacking damage or utility.
If you still can’t it means necro lacks in comparison.

We’re comparing Necros with Warriors because you can’t evaluate a class in vacuum.
Necros especially should know what’s come of doing this.
Why Warriors? Because they are the most popular sPvP class at the moment and should be considered the baseline.

And I don’t think sorrow bring any productive point to discussion, his Point of View is incredibly narrow and he’s shown how little- not at all- he’s willing to change it when presented with evidence of the contrary.

I quote:
“1. Every other class have more sustain? Like the infamous Mesmer sustain coming from channeling mantras? What about Thieves? Never seen that much sustain. Rangers, then? Oh yeah, all of that sustain coming from regeneration! All 10x better than a profession mechanic that allows you to gain LF that can be used as the equivalent of HP. Ele has sustain only because they heavily spec into it to be viable. Warr and Guardian are supposed to be sustainable as they are the heavy classes.”

Rangers Thieves and Mesmers have much better sustain compared to Necro, every profession does. Any Necro with experience with the other classes will confirm this, it´s bloody undeniable.

The only build the Necro has with some sustain is the MM, a build designed for sustainability, other classes just add sustain to whichever build they’re playing.

He keeps saying that LF is as effective as a second life bar for crying out loud, I’ve only ever seen people who’ve never played a Necro make this assumption.

leman.7682:

The point stays. Can you propose a build that has the sustainability of a warrior or ele or engie and provides similar level of damage/utility?
If you can’t then provide a build that is more sustainable, which would make up for the lacking damage or utility.
If you still can’t it means necro lacks in comparison.

Yes and no. Clerics power/wells necro with the right traiting is pretty tanky (and highly reduces the tankiness of the other bunker), same with Spectrals (either power or condi), and clerics MM.

The issue with all of these builds and the main reason they fall short is because of a lack of weapons. Scepter isn’t a good tanky weapon, it relies on spamming 1 to do damage. Staff is okay for a condi build for bunkering, but awful for a power build. Axe is also pretty awful for a tanky power build that isn’t an MM, and even for an MM I’d happily drop Axe for so many other things if we had that choice.

If they gave us new weapons, like hammer/greatsword (hammer for power bunker, greatsword tanky condi) then I’d have 2-3 builds out tomorrow that would compete with any bunker.

Kiriakulos.1690:

And I don’t think sorrow bring any productive point to discussion, his Point of View is incredibly narrow and he’s shown how little- not at all- he’s willing to change it when presented with evidence of the contrary.

Evidence of the contrary?
I’m still waiting for people to post some.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Rangers Thieves and Mesmers have much better sustain compared to Necro, every profession does. Any Necro with experience with the other classes will confirm this, it´s bloody undeniable.

Wow.
So much evidence of the contrary.
Since when an empty claim is considered “evidence”?

Kiriakulos.1690:

He keeps saying that LF is as effective as a second life bar for crying out loud, I’ve only ever seen people who’ve never played a Necro make this assumption.

I’ve never said that LF is a second life bar.
I’ve said multiple times that LF is less valuable compared to HP, but I’ve also said that you usually regenerate much more LF as any other profession can with HP. You should read my posts first before claiming I have never played Necro…

leman.7682:

The point stays. Can you propose a build that has the sustainability of a warrior or ele or engie and provides similar level of damage/utility?
If you can’t then provide a build that is more sustainable, which would make up for the lacking damage or utility.
If you still can’t it means necro lacks in comparison.

I can’t for soldier Warrior, because it is bloody OP, but I can easily provide a build with comparable sustainability of eles along with similiar or more damage/utility.
Just try anything with heavy LF generation, soldier amulet, Deathly Perception and some points into Death Magic.

sorrow.2364:

LB has Combustive Shot as reliable AoE. Other than that, nothing is left except for some strong skills with huge tells which can be easily dodged by competent players.
Staff has several utility skills which might output less DPS on single target than LB overall, but are way more reliable and provide strong utility.
Putrid Mark is a solid condition management tool. Chilblains offers amazing shutdown capability (especially against Elementalists and bunkers) and MoB provides permanent regeneration other than bleeding. All of these can be traited to be unblockable and have pretty much the same, short animation.

Ok so what I’m seeing is that you’re comparing the staff to combustive shot, which yeah, I agree, the staff is better than that single skill. But you’re implying that longbow skills can be dodged and staff skills cannot. On the contrary: they very much can, and sometimes reaper’s mark and putrid mark are the difference between winning and losing a fight, and they can miss because they are ground targeted.

But I guess it’s cool because we can spend 4 trait points and make the staff more comparable to a longbow’s condi damage. That a warrior can dish out in a power build…

Also, MoB only gives regeneration if you’re in the blast radius when it goes off. So a huge majority of the time there is no regen. This really gives me the impression that you don’t play the class.

sorrow.2364:

You’ve misunderstood what I was trying to say. I’ve said that staff is solid and DS provides extra single target capability that staff may lack when you have your secondary weapon set not available.

Ok, so you’re saying…. that DS supplements the staff? Again?

sorrow.2364:

Every weapon set has strong features along with weak ones and I’m not trying to deny that Staff has its weaknesses. Point is that you can overcome staff weaknesses either with your secondary weapon set or death shroud (which I think it is complementary to staff somehow) or both.

As has been on of the points in this thread, you don’t always have DS, so the staff should be capable of standing on it’s own, yes? Every necro starts an spvp match with 0 life force. So if staff must be supplemented by DS, looks like not only do necros start that match with no mitigation whatsoever, but also only 1 functioning weapon set. And this is by your logic, yes?

sorrow.2364:

I see that better sustain through buffing LF regen might be a good choice without spoiling the original profession design. It is quite different from asking for vigor, mobility or invulnerabilities as most people are doing here.

Life force is the only mitigation we have, so having it be hard to obtain puts the class in the situation that this thread exists.

sorrow.2364:

You might argue that Necros need better sustain through better LF regeneration, but arguing that Necros have no sustain is a lost argument from the start.

You’re saying sustain and using it interchangeably with mitigation. Necros have mitigation through DS. They do not have sustain as it is almost impossible to maintain life force in a competitive build against reasonable competition. I could use spectral skills you could say. Sure, I could, but those cooldowns are very long. Likely won’t give enough life force to keep me going until the next minute when it is up again, and even by then I’m likely not in a good situation if the fight is still ongoing.

DS isn’t sufficient at sustain. When DS is gone the class has no mobility or previously mentioned mitigation and becomes a sitting duck – and don’t forget no more access to Doom, a strong defensive skill, and other offensive capabilities.

What other class starts a match with no mitigation, hardly any mobility, no access to key skills, and can then lose it if attained? What class when playing defensively doesn’t still have access to heals and utilities? What other class has a CD on that only form of both defense and offense like that? What other class cannot be healed when using their class mechanic, including even their own traits like siphons, or their own skills, like well of blood or signet of vampirism, or their own regeneration boon?

I don’t expect you to have answers to those questions. Nor are answers important. But, do you not at least agree that life force and DS as a mechanic has some inherent weaknesses, given everything posted in this thread? If life force generation were changed, especially on weapon skills and maybe the way it’s generated at all, some cooldowns or utilities in general were tweaked – specifically to spectral skills – it could dramatically improve the situation. But you’re implying that there is no situation which is false.

sorrow.2364:

I’ve also said that you usually regenerate much more LF as any other profession can with HP.

This is exactly what you have wrong. And it’s mainly because we have no way to protect either of these resources besides some protection and the same dodges every class gets.

Roe.3679:

Ok so what I’m seeing is that you’re comparing the staff to combustive shot, which yeah, I agree, the staff is better than that single skill. But you’re implying that longbow skills can be dodged and staff skills cannot. On the contrary: they very much can, and sometimes reaper’s mark and putrid mark are the difference between winning and losing a fight, and they can miss because they are ground targeted.

But I guess it’s cool because we can spend 4 trait points and make the staff more comparable to a longbow’s condi damage. That a warrior can dish out in a power build…

So you’re saying that Staff marks can be dodge as easily and are as reliable as Fan of Fire, Arcing Arrow or Pin Down?

Roe.3679:

Also, MoB only gives regeneration if you’re in the blast radius when it goes off. So a huge majority of the time there is no regen. This really gives me the impression that you don’t play the class.

If you’re not giving Regen to you, you’re giving regen to an ally, unless you are offpoints in a 1vs1 situation, which is rather funny and really gives me the impression that you don’t play PvP.

Roe.3679:

Ok, so you’re saying…. that DS supplements the staff? Again?

Yes, as any weapon set is supplementary to the other.

Roe.3679:

As has been on of the points in this thread, you don’t always have DS, so the staff should be capable of standing on it’s own, yes? Every necro starts an spvp match with 0 life force. So if staff must be supplemented by DS, looks like not only do necros start that match with no mitigation whatsoever, but also only 1 functioning weapon set. And this is by your logic, yes?

First, Necros can start the match with some LF by sacrificing minions. Any competent player knows that.
Second, you probably ignored the fact that you have a secondary weapon set, other than Death Shroud. No weapon set stands for its own, Staff doesn’t as much as S/D.

Roe.3679:

You’re saying sustain and using it interchangeably with mitigation. Necros have mitigation through DS. They do not have sustain as it is almost impossible to maintain life force in a competitive build against reasonable competition. I could use spectral skills you could say. Sure, I could, but those cooldowns are very long. Likely won’t give enough life force to keep me going until the next minute when it is up again, and even by then I’m likely not in a good situation if the fight is still ongoing.

DS isn’t sufficient at sustain. When DS is gone the class has no mobility or previously mentioned mitigation and becomes a sitting duck – and don’t forget no more access to Doom, a strong defensive skill, and other offensive capabilities.

What other class starts a match with no mitigation, hardly any mobility, no access to key skills, and can then lose it if attained? What class when playing defensively doesn’t still have access to heals and utilities? What other class has a CD on that only form of both defense and offense like that? What other class cannot be healed when using their class mechanic, including even their own traits like siphons, or their own skills, like well of blood or signet of vampirism, or their own regeneration boon?

I don’t expect you to have answers to those questions. Nor are answers important. But, do you not at least agree that life force and DS as a mechanic has some inherent weaknesses, given everything posted in this thread? If life force generation were changed, especially on weapon skills and maybe the way it’s generated at all, some cooldowns or utilities in general were tweaked – specifically to spectral skills – it could dramatically improve the situation. But you’re implying that there is no situation which is false.

I’m not implying there is no situation.
I’ve only stood against handing out Vigor and Mobility to Necromancer.
Sustain is through Death Shroud, that is my point.

I don’t think people understand that every class has a specific way of negating damage. For Necros it’s the various conditions at ease in order to keep people at bay and not even reach them at all.

@Swim

“I don’t think people understand that every class has a specific way of negating damage. For Necros it’s the various conditions at ease in order to keep people at bay and not even reach them at all.”

That’s only true when there is no MASSIVE CONDI REMOVAL which every class have access to ftm (+ you can miss a weakness (dodged) but you can’t miss a invuln) … why can you massively negate de defensive moves of necro … why you can’t remove a invuln or a tp or a block ? does that look fair ?

+ Plus all ppl setting theory craft on the table … juts watch TOL and look how the few necroes played are having hard time … and look the best teams , and ask your self why they don’t run necroes … thise are facts so plz don’t reply with some theoricraft thing , ty.

Or i’ll begin debating on engi and i’ll prove you that with theory craft he is virtually unkillable… which is far from reality !

Swim.6830:

I don’t think people understand that every class has a specific way of negating damage. For Necros it’s the various conditions at ease in order to keep people at bay and not even reach them at all.

Except unlike every other defensive mechanic, conditions CANNOT be reactive. You have to pre-apply blind in anticipation of someone hitting you, instead of vigor/dodge/invulns which are all reactive. Everything has to be pre-applied, you cannot ever react to a situation with conditions, whereas literally every other class has a way to react to a situation and avoid a skill. Necromancers have to just tank through it, however you can’t tank through chain CC when you have no stability, no way to avoid it once its started, and all your defenses require you to have control of your character to cast.

Also, unlike invulnerability, dodge, etc., you CAN counter conditions directly. There are multiple sources of condition immunity which completely void all of our defenses, there is a crapton of cleansing in the game, which also directly counters our defenses. We have the hardest defenses to use, with the harshest punishment for not playing perfectly (on defense), and the only defense that can be directly countered.

It simply doesn’t make sense that a class completely balanced around needing to constantly be casting and reapplying conditions to not be easily trained down has the worst access to the very mechanic that allows that.

Abimes.9726:

@Swim

“I don’t think people understand that every class has a specific way of negating damage. For Necros it’s the various conditions at ease in order to keep people at bay and not even reach them at all.”

That’s only true when there is no MASSIVE CONDI REMOVAL which every class have access to ftm (+ you can miss a weakness (dodged) but you can’t miss a invuln) … why can you massively negate de defensive moves of necro … why you can’t remove a invuln or a tp or a block ? does that look fair ?

+ Plus all ppl setting theory craft on the table … juts watch TOL and look how the few necroes played are having hard time … and look the best teams , and ask your self why they don’t run necroes … thise are facts so plz don’t reply with some theoricraft thing , ty.

Or i’ll begin debating on engi and i’ll prove you that with theory craft he is virtually unkillable… which is far from reality !

They don’t run Necros because it’s hard to synergize with the rest of the team and roam/tank. And while better mobility would be good, I do believe Necros can play the survival game as well as other classes.

Also boons can be stripped/converted/stolen, so even if they are reactive they can be countered. And there are also unblockable skills for a reason.

@swim

“it’s hard to synergize with the rest of the team and roam/tank”

True , still you agree there is some issue with or mobility or with sustain … definately lacking something. ( i don’t wan’t to see necro become some no brain condi burst class like with dumhfire , don’t get me wrong … we just want some reliable way to be in team … if ppl wan’t necro to sustain through DS , being able to get heal in DS and having a bit more Life force regen in % of how much ppl you are fighting (so 1v1 situations don’t become lame) could be a solution or other way give us some reliable escape mechs and bit more roaming power)

My point about damage is they should all be reduced (they buffed everything to the roof now) , conditions should be less spamy and there should be less condition removal , so conditions have to be played in a wiser way without spamming them that would be a good start for ex.

Bhawb.7408:

Swim.6830:

I don’t think people understand that every class has a specific way of negating damage. For Necros it’s the various conditions at ease in order to keep people at bay and not even reach them at all.

Except unlike every other defensive mechanic, conditions CANNOT be reactive. You have to pre-apply blind in anticipation of someone hitting you, instead of vigor/dodge/invulns which are all reactive. Everything has to be pre-applied, you cannot ever react to a situation with conditions, whereas literally every other class has a way to react to a situation and avoid a skill. Necromancers have to just tank through it, however you can’t tank through chain CC when you have no stability, no way to avoid it once its started, and all your defenses require you to have control of your character to cast.

Also, unlike invulnerability, dodge, etc., you CAN counter conditions directly. There are multiple sources of condition immunity which completely void all of our defenses, there is a crapton of cleansing in the game, which also directly counters our defenses. We have the hardest defenses to use, with the harshest punishment for not playing perfectly (on defense), and the only defense that can be directly countered.

It simply doesn’t make sense that a class completely balanced around needing to constantly be casting and reapplying conditions to not be easily trained down has the worst access to the very mechanic that allows that.

That’s why I proposed to make condition cleanses differ between damage und other (chill/weakness/blind) conditions. Simply make most condition cleanses that cleanse multiple condis just cleanse bleed/poison/confusion and other skills clean chill/blind/weakness.This would increase our and other classes indirect defenses by allowing weakness/chill to stay on enemies and increase our sustain.
The power creep in condi cleanses did not just increase defense against damage but also against those soft cc’s, which the Necromancer is based upon.

@ sternen

It’s true , but i think reducing overall condition application and cleanse is a more effective way of doing that .

And even if your idea is all right (it have to be tested) , i think it’s difficult to code they’ll have to recode condition cleaning and conditions themselves and that’s a reason it might never happen at all in the game. =) but i like the idea of you can cleanse some kind of conditions it at least make more skilled gameplay … but again you have to bring some skills to to cleanse soft cc and then some to cleanse damaging conditions which may lead to having 2 skills to do one thing right now and remember our skill bar is not infinite ^^