Guild Wars 2

Fox.3562:

3) The cooldown must be conducive to being able to use the skill to pre-stack might by blasting a fire field and having the skill be ready to use in battle with a minimal delay. I personally would consider any skill longer than the median cooldown on blast finishers, 25 seconds, too long.

Again, requirements which aid your personal suggestion.

For example, 3. is something you came up with personally and it ignores the fact that 50% of the blast finishers have a 25s cooldown or higher. Remember, that Median you calculated? Heck, even 60% have a higher cooldown than 20s. So how is this a justifiable criteria for introducing new Blast Finishers?

Fox.3562:

Excluding Phantasms because they fail requirements 1 and 2.

Again, it conveniently justifies your suggestion of adding another Finisher to Greatsword since you exclude the Berserker. I would even argue that the Berserker meets those requirements if you are not exclusively talking about a zergfest where it might die too early.

Fox.3562:

Blast finishers are best used in groups, so I would not advocate for giving Counter Blade a blast finisher, as offhand sword is mostly a single target weapon. Counterspell and Confusing Images are both strongly biased towards being condition weapons, so I would not give them blast finishers either, as condition mesmers can be part of a group already as a glamour mesmer.

So single target weapons are bad for groups and don’t deserve Blast Finishers?
And condition weapons don’t deserve any because they are condition weapons and because condition weapons might be part of a group with a Glamour Mesmer? Dare I ask: Why would a GS get a Blast Finisher since it could also be part of a group on a Glamour Mesmer?

How are these even reasonable arguments? Sorry, I don’t get it.

Fox.3562:

This leaves Mind Stab as the most logical choice for adding a blast finisher.

Congratulations! You designed yourself a totally biased ‘study’ which leads to the result you were looking for because you made sure it would end there.

You are entitled to your opinion but so am I. I don’t agree with you arguments. I feel that most suggestions of adding a Blast Finisher to Mind Blast originate from the name – this does not necessarily adress you – not because it makes sense gameplay-wise. I feel that a Blast Finisher doesn’t fit the theme of the Greatsword and its playstyle. I also feel that it does not need a Blast Finisher since it does alright which probably is the most important argument not to implement one. Mind Blast already has its purpose and if you feel it being lackluster it might be better do improve what it already does. I also feel that a cooldown of 12s would be rather inapproriate for a Blast Finisher.

There are three Mesmer weapons which could need some help. The Scepter mainly because of its underhwelming auto attack. The Torch mainly because of the iMage although the Blast on Prestige should finally be fixed properly. And the Staff. While it does have its moments in 1vs1 situations (PvP or roaming) it is very lackluster in PvE and WvW. I personally think that – if a Blast Finisher was added – it could aid the Staff and make it a bit more appealing without making it overshadow other weapons. It also ties in the theme of an already very defensive and support focussed weapon. Adding a Blast Finisher to the Greatsword might negatively affect the attractiveness of other weapons which already are less popular. And again, it doesn’t need it.

That is my opinion regarding Blast Finishers on Mesmers. I don’t feel that you have considered my concerns and arguments at any time during this discussion because you are so fixated on your own initial idea. I’m even surprised how determined you are. At least you should have acknowledged that there actually are some arguments opposing your idea. I won’t bother arguing about this topic any longer since there doesn’t appear to be any desire for a real discussion.

Xaylin.1860:

It still is scewed because of several outliers like Mighty Blow. You included Cluster Bomb which doesn’t even have a cooldown. You used the skill cooldown of Dragon Tooth which actually has a higher practical cooldown because of attunements.

What constitutes an outlier? Any skill shorter/longer than 1 standard deviation from the mean? If so, any cooldown shoter than 8.7 seconds is an outlier (4 skills) and any cooldown greater than 34.8 seconds (3 skills). No skill falls outside 2 standard deviations, but skills with 45 second cooldowns come the closest (-4.36-47.88 seconds). You may feel that blast finisher cooldowns should be longer, but the math says otherwise. Feel free to prove me wrong with hard numbers instead of feelings.

Cluster bomb has a 3 second effective recharge because that’s how long it takes to regain the initiative spent.

Of course 12 seconds is above average, but it is well within the normal range of skill cooldowns.

Xaylin.1860:

Yet again you refer to weapons which benefit your argument (e.g. Longbow)…

Why is Ranger warhorn a support hybrid and not a DPS hybrid? 50% of it’s skills offer nothing but damage. What about Necro staff makes it a support weapon? Putrid Mark? While 2/5 skills offer nothing but DPS, 2 offer CC, and only 1 offers any kind of “support”, it is classified as a support weapon? I’m not going to bother to try to argue against your feelings. Come up with some objective evidence as to what makes a weapon DPS/CC/Support.

Xaylin.1860:

However, you can’t deny that there isn’t a real reason for it besides ‘just because’ since Greatsword doesn’t need it.

As I wrote in the OP, power mesmers don’t contribute much to large groups outside of portal/veil. Adding a blast finisher would at least give them the ability to help stack might/regroup.

Greatsword is nearly objectively a power-based weapon. Power mesmers have no real access to AoE and therefore don’t have much of a place in large battles. Condition mesmers can play in large groups as a glamour mesmer. Adding a blast finisher to greatsword would aid that disparity.

Xaylin.1860:

There is a difference between saying that most Blast Finishers are on less offensive weapons and saying that all supportive weapons have Blast Finishers…But there certainly is a pattern. Of course, this unfortunately doesn’t aid your cause.

Baseless claim with no evidence to back it up.

Xaylin.1860:

Again, requirements which aid your personal suggestion.

For example, 3. is something you came up with personally and it ignores the fact that 50% of the blast finishers have a 25s cooldown or higher. Remember, that Median you calculated? Heck, even 60% have a higher cooldown than 20s. So how is this a justifiable criteria for introducing new Blast Finishers?

There is a difference between a skill having a blast finisher and having a useful blast finisher. I listed the criteria for what I believe makes a blast finisher useful.

Xaylin.1860:

Again, it conveniently justifies your suggestion of adding another Finisher to Greatsword since you exclude the Berserker. I would even argue that the Berserker meets those requirements if you are not exclusively talking about a zergfest where it might die too early.

Using berserker as a reliable combo finisher is nearly impossible as he is both dependent on an enemy standing in a combo field, and berserker’s AI taking an appropriate path through the combo field to trigger effects. Warden was usable once upon a time since he was stationary, making placing fields below him a viable option. Now that he chases targets, I feel he is less useful.

Xaylin.1860:

So single target weapons are bad for groups and don’t deserve Blast Finishers?

They are inefficient. Bringing a hypothetical off-hand sword with a blast finisher would be viable in sPvP, but useless in an even moderately sized WvW type scenario. The block is selfish and doesn’t aid the group, and iSwordsman would be lucky to land a single hit before dying.

Xaylin.1860:

And condition weapons don’t deserve any because they are condition weapons and because condition weapons might be part of a group with a Glamour Mesmer? Dare I ask: Why would a GS get a Blast Finisher since it could also be part of a group on a Glamour Mesmer?

Again, as I wrote in the OP, adding a blast finisher to greatsword would give power mesmers a use outside of veil/portal. If you are using greatsword in a condition build, you are using a sub-optimal weapon. If a hypothetical glamour mesmer decided that taking a greatsword for the blast finisher at the cost of significantly less damage from, say, staff, I don’t see a problem with that.

Xaylin.1860:

Congratulations! You designed yourself a totally biased ‘study’ which leads to the result you were looking for because you made sure it would end there.

The OP was a result of the study, not vise-versa.

Xaylin.1860:

I don’t agree with you arguments.

The feeling is mutual. My arguements, however, are backed up with math and reason, and yours are backed up with feelings. Bring some hard evidence if you want to claim that greatsword is unfit for a blast finisher.

Carighan.6758:

What I don’t get is what people mind about the current Mind Stab. Am I the only one who thinks that a GTAE boon remover with non-trivial damage is not bad at all? I mean sure it’s bad in 1v1, but then no game mode supports 1v1, neither does the combat system or the balance as a whole. So why would that be an issue.

And in group fights, stripping a boon each of 2-5 targets and causing some damage is plenty fine for me.

Maybe increase the damage coefficient ooooor if need be the radius. But Blast finisher? We’d lose either the projectile or worse the whirl finisher. But losses would be significantly worse than gaining the blast finisher, something to use during the buff phase and which other people already do for us (as in, this isn’t a real gain).

I’m not saying Mind Stab is a bad skill, it’s simply the most logical mesmer skill to add a blast finisher to in my opinion. It’s a targetable, ranged skill on a reasonable cooldown.

If we had to give up the whirl finisher on iBerserker to get a blast finisher on Mind Stab, I would immediately take that trade. I’ve never found the whirl finisher extremely useful or reliable.

The point of the change would be to make mesmer less of a leech in the “buff phase”.

Meh, then I’d add it on a more supporty weapon. Staff would work well in that regard, maybe the Warlock summons in an explosion which counts as a Blast finisher?

I think the whirl finisher on iZerker was already removed. Or if not, it no longer shows up on screen.

Carighan.6758:

Meh, then I’d add it on a more supporty weapon. Staff would work well in that regard, maybe the Warlock summons in an explosion which counts as a Blast finisher?

Why support weapons are the only one meant to have blast finishers?

Elementalist:
Scepter = 2 blast finishers on fire (DPS skills).
Focus = 1 blast finisher on water “Comet” (Hard CC) and another in earth “Earthquake” (a mix of everything).
Arcane Wave = Blast finisher on a DPS skill.
Eruption: Blast finisher on a DPS skill.

Warrior:
Earthshaker: Blast finisher on a DPS and hard CC skill.
Arcing Arrow: Blast finisher on a DPS skill.
Call to Arms: First blast finisher on a support skill.
Stomp: Blast finisher on a hard CC skill.
Banners: All support skill but with massive CD.

Guard:
Mighty Blow: Blast finisher on a DPS skill.
Shield of Wrath: Second support skill with blast finisher.

Thief:
Cluster bomb: Blast finisher on a DPS skill.

Ranger:
Call of the Wild: Third support skill with blast finisher.

Engineer:
All turret explosions and other blast finisher skills are CC or DPS (Too much to write them).

Mesmer:
The Prestige: Blast finisher on a DPS action.

Necro:
Putrid Mark: DPS skill with a blast finisher.

Really, don’t understand what’s in common with blast finishers and support, when most of blast finisher skills are either DPS or CC.

Also, why people complicates so much the life that prefer to redesign a whole phantasm to suit in it a blast finisher, than just add the effect to a skill that its design is perfectly meant to be a blast finisher?

I think a phantasm with a blast finisher would be just as useless as The Prestige. There’s too much randomness involved with relying on AI to put the finisher where you want it.

Ansau.7326:

Also, why people complicates so much the life that prefer to redesign a whole phantasm to suit in it a blast finisher, than just add the effect to a skill that its design is perfectly meant to be a blast finisher?

Is it? I don’t see where it’s designed to be a blast finisher.

Patch notes are not looking so hot for mesmers.

Mesmers getting some nice stuff? =O

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/About-mesmer/first#post3683422