This is not a Warrior QQ thread.
Just felt like highlighting that since the slightest inkling or mention of the profession is enough to cause witch-hunts akin to Monty Python’s Holy Grail.
Instead, I wish to discuss in a respectable and thoughtful manner the aspect and thought behind warrior traits, ONE of the main causes for their current state as of this moment.
Just traits, just changing traits around or coming up with new renditions given that utilities, weapon skills, numbers and so forth are left alone. Let’s start with traits first, and perhaps we can get somewhere. I thank you beforehand.
(Skip this if you just want to see my proposals, who needs context?)
So, currently right now as we saw from the ToL in both the NA and EU, Warriors aren’t exactly in a bad spot, despite nerfs to the profession during the April Balance Patch they are still a dominate profession in every single aspect of this game. This is good however the same cannot be said of other professions, who might excel better than warriors in one aspect but fail miserably at another. Thus it puts Warriors in an odd spot since they are wanted everywhere and at the same time, HATED everywhere.
My position is that instead of outright breaking warriors in some aspect, bring the relative power levels down by helping other professions who are really lack-luster. Rangers still have a ways to go but the recent strain of buffs and reworks brought them to a competitive tier and made them an actual threat! Elementalists got some nice buffs as well, not quite to their perhaps former glory but kitten well close.
All that said, instead of calling for public outcry demanding harsh number nerfs to warriors, the relative power gets thrown out of whack and we might never see Warriors in TPvP again. I want to avoid that, let’s adjust the traits instead and see if we can’t see build variety instead of constant Hambows (Though A/S and LB was a nice sight, but might outline an issue with those weapons in general.)
(Alright skipped context, read below!)
So what did I come up with? This will take a couple of posts…
Strength Tree:
I think every warrior knows this tree is the one to look forward to for Personal PvE DPS, mainly due to Berserker’s Power and the raw damage going 30 (6) into it gets you. But there isn’t enough in this tree to have flocks of PvP / WvW warriors go into it as a viable option when you can just Hammer Train, CondiBow, Hambow, etc. There needs to be something to synergize growing adrenaline and expending it as this tree ironically caters towards (Really, look at how the minor traits want you to use adrenaline).
Let’s give it some synergy huh?
Adept Tier:
Restorative Strength: Using a heal skill removes conditions (chilled, cripple, immobilize, weakness) and provides Regeneration and Vigor (3-5 seconds, hard to decide the duration).
- This one trait could be the key to us seeing more warriors without healing signet, and systematically going into Strength Tree more. It also makes it an extremely appealing trait to be used in more than one situation unlike OTHERS of its tier. *Cough*ShortTemper*Cough*
Powerful Banners: Banners do damage when summoned and provide Vigor to allies.
- …YES I am serious. Why? Because it adds more power to banner builds in a tree they do not go into at all, and consistent vigor uptime MIGHT be an option they could choose if they want to lose something else. This, people, is how you make the warrior both weaker as a build and stronger as a profession at the same time. …Not to mention the trait sucks now, unless they decide to quadruple the damage on it so the crits it can do will one-shot someone for standing in a place for 2 seconds. That would be hilariously awful.
Master Tier:
Here’s a fun tier. As it stand it is pretty solid on many builds, and actually I think it doesn’t need any changes as long as the Adept tier has some amount of depth. If I had to pick and choose, or if people really think this tier is underwhelming, you could probably add duration to the Confusion in Distracting Strikes for the impressive interrupting warrior. Physical Training suffers not from the trait but the utilities it buffs.
Grandmaster Tier:
Stick and Move: Damage Increase changed from 3% to 5%.
- Hngh. Honestly I can’t change the major traits in this line. The issue is not necessarily the traits but what we have on the field right now. Superior Sigil of Intelligence sort of laughs in Burst Precision’s face, Berserker’s Power is solid and Berserker’s Might enables reliable adrenaline gain. The issue I have is that even without Berserker’s Might, getting Maximum Adrenaline on every weapon swap is pretty easy without it. Ultimately this is why I wanted to encourage a buff to Stick and Move to something at least noticable if you are dodging all the time.
Overview of Strength Tree after my proposed changes:
With Adept Tier given more power, warriors will have an easier time putting their points into the tree and Restorative Strength will hopefully be a MUST for any warrior actually using their healing skill.
Arms Tree:
This is one…difficult tree to mess with. Where to begin? First off, this tree has the biggest hole in build variance I have seen. Look at it, Adept Tier has a blend of condition and power build variance which is fine. Master Tier is RAW power builds, with the single point of synergy for condition being Blademaster sword crits which can apply Precise Strikes Bleed. Finally we have the Grandmaster tree which is more hybrid, same as the Adept tier. Ironically enough…I think we need to…uh…well you will see. Just don’t be drinking anything, and put away your pitchforks please…
Adept Tier:
No changes. It’s got plenty of options and the power level is relatively decent among all of them.
Master Tier:
Attack of Opportunity: Moved from Grandmaster to Master, increases damage against bleeding foes by 7% (+/- 1%).
- Alright, I can see the red in your eyes, I know what you are thinking. I can feel the rage pent up by both PvE warriors screaming at me for ‘toning down their DPS’, and the PvP anti-warriors wondering why I could make it easier for warriors to get one of the most powerful minor traits for warriors. I can assure you…its for a good cause. Let me just continue before you impale me with whatever weapons you have on your person…
Grandmaster Tier:
Critical Burst: Moved from Master to Grandmaster, Burst Skills have a 15% increased critical chance.
Last Chance: Gain Quickness when you strike a foe below the health threshold. Cooldown reduced to 30 seconds from 40 seconds, duration increased from 4 seconds to 5 seconds.
- HA, and you thought Attack of Opportunity was the biggest change- WAIT WAIT WAIT NOT THE FIRE!! Ok, let me explain. First, as I mentioned before there was a huge rift in the Arms tree, big enough that not enough warriors IN PVP/WVW could consider going a lot of points into the tree unless they were a) using Rifle, b) PvE Raw DPS, or c) Unsure of exactly how many points they would be able to spend, thus gimping their build some amount.
I have merely cleaned up the tree, reallocating power and making it more clear where just how far you could go before your build did not need to go any further. Arms now has enough incentive to go 20 (4) points into it for said builds to actually trade off defense for more damage. However 10% would be a bit too much, which is why I suggested a nerf with a variance depending on how strong or weak it might be after.
The grandmaster tree is still hybridish with Adrenaline spending condition builds wanting Furious and a substantial buff to Last Stand opening the way for potential power builds seeking reliable Quickness every 30 seconds if they time it right on low health enemies. More variety the better the profession. You go 30 into arms, you can’t go 30 into defense and 30 into Discipline. You see what I am trying to do?
Overview of Arms Tree after my proposed changes:
Arms tree now has focus, definitive reasons for both Power Builds and Condition builds to go into it at least 20 (4) points. That’s better than it currently is now in PvP and WvW, and despite the 2% nerf to Attack of Opportunity for that PvE raw DPS warrior those 5 points can now go into…I don’t know, Discipline or Strength? Negligible difference in DPS for a profession already wanted in PvE for banners, reliable DPS on an profession that hardly dies, and recently the capability to Might-Stack.
Defense Tree:
Hmm hmm. Oh where to start? If you guys thought at any point thought I was ‘out of control’ before or going beyond what was thought possible…well I am not going to hold back now. I know exactly how potent Defense Tree is, without it Warriors melt faster than anyone else, but with it they are capable of almost unlimited survival. The relative power of traits on all three levels is so far out of whack it is no wonder warriors always go into this tree.
But what if while the relative power decreases, the amount of builds rises?
Here is what I got.
Adept Tier:
Adept Minor Change, Vigorous Return: Health and Endurance are increased when you rally.
Adept Major Trait, Thick Skin: Gain 100 extra armor when above 80% health threshold (from 90% health).
Sure-Footed: Increases stance durations by 40% (+/- 10%), up from 25%.
Cull the Weak: Increases damage to weakened foes by 8% (+/- 1%), up from 5%.
- Part of the problem with defense tree is that it emphasizes being extremely tanky without too much trade-off. Thick Skin passively made you hard to burst down while at high health if someone got the jump on you, and movement-impairing conditions would also roll off you with Dogged March. So to alleviate this, Defense Warriors will passively rally with more health and endurance, and end up having to choose between a recently nerfed Dogged March, a substantially buffed Sure-Footed (Stances are really impressive on a warrior, I could see Stance warriors even more now with the buff to this trait), or control warriors wanting a bit more damage on weakened foes. It’s all about relative power.
NOTICE: My changes to Cleansing Ire and Rousing Resilience I have decided they are not worth switching about until the current state of the game is changed. Conditions are just too strong, and there are not enough options in other tree lines to deal with conditions that Cleansing Ire as a Master Trait will suffice. I will still keep my arguments below for viewing.
Master Tier:
Rousing Resilience: _Moved to Master Tier from Grandmaster Tier.
Grandmaster Tier:
Cleansing Ire: Moved to Grandmaster Tier from Master Tier.
- “Oh man how original, nerfing cleansing ire lol nub condition meta op.”
And…so what? There is one, irrefutable fact about Cleansing Ire. It is extremely reliable condition removal that synergizes so well with the playstyle of every warrior. It is potent, more potent than other condition removals of the Master tier and as potent as Grandmaster traits like Diamond Skin. It keeps warriors alive in the midst of this meta of conditions, yet even if all damaging conditions were nerfed by 50% warriors would STILL pick up this trait because of movement-impairing conditions. It’s a grandmaster trait in the master tier, having Cleansing Ire and Defy Pain together ought to be considered a sin!
Rousing Resilience is more in line of a Master trait and numerically provides close to a Protection’s worth of mitigation against raw damage. It is quite clear that with my changes I have made the Defense tree less potent, it needs to be in order for warriors to stop being so binary.
Overview of Defense tree after my proposed changes:
Ultimately, Cleansing Ire where-ever it is placed will be needed in order to survive the conditions in this game as they stand. Thus you will likely only see Defy Pain being taken over CI in a very specific Stance build utilizing the new Sure-Footed, thus instead of a single line of traits one could run extremely viably in this trait line I have made a few very decent trait lines viable for PvP. This is better in the long run…
(edited by Sykper.6583)
Tactics Tree::
Support based tree huh? Looking at the timeline of changes to this tree in particular, it has been getting buffs non-stop. And for good reason, it kinda…what I mean is…well it sucked. In the grand scheme of things, Warriors do not provide too many boons until very recently with Phalanx Strength really making them capable of granting group might. For the most part, all the traits in this tree are thought-out quite well! The only reason it is not a popular line is solely based on the emphasis on tankiness, CC, DPS, and conditions versus providing massive boons (Guardian’s job) and support. If anything, this tree has roles in every aspect of this profession, it is the MOST balanced of all the trees!
- That is why I do not want to change anything. This tree in particular is fine as it is, if I had to change ANYTHING, it would be adept traits Leg Specialist and Desperate Power. Leg Specialist I originally thought would synergize with Hammer Shock’s AoE cripple to apply a 1-second immobilize on all targets hit. It would be NICE if it did, but would that be broken? Probably, because hammer trains need more reason to be too strong…
Desperate Power gives 20% more damage while under 25% health. Synergizes well with Defy Pain but it is not in-line with the use of other traits in this tree. Maybe threshold at 30-35%? …Nah, forget about it, this tree is extremely balanced, I don’t want to upset it. Maybe something to think about for the future.
Overview of Tactics Tree after my proposed changes:
I proposed no changes, the tree is fine as it is. …Horrah!
Discipline Tree:
Finally the final tree, feels like I have been typing for a while now. I hope you guys understand where and why I am suggesting these changes to the trait trees. The Discipline tree is a very utility, raw damage focused tree whose sole purpose is the bursts of the warrior profession and their weapons. Looking at it as a whole, is there any wonder why it was so appealing before? Bonuses for weapon-swapping on minor traits, buffs to utilities and weapons across Adept and Major traits, and the fabled Burst Mastery in Grandmaster.
….However it could use just a tiny bit of work.
Adept Tier:
No changes.
Master Tier:
No changes.
There is a lot of acceptable utility and power in the Adept and Master Tiers. The weapon-swap in Master I have been thinking about for a long time. Despite the changes to Sigils, I think it is in a perfectly fine spot since not every Warrior build will require 5 second swaps. If I am wrong about it, and I could very well be it could be swapped for the Grandmaster and thus make burst attacks less frequent. Could be a decent nerf to Cleansing Ire…but I got a different solution.
Grandmaster Tier:
Burst Mastery: Burst Skills deal more damage and cost less. Interacts against Cleansing Ire.
Brawler’s Recovery: Remove Blindness when you swap weapons, and provides blind immunity for 5 seconds, no cooldown.
- The Burst Mastery idea was not my own, but I did find it quite genius and it made the most sense. Think about it, Burst Mastery has you spending LESS adrenaline. Cleansing Ire requires MORE bars of adrenaline to be spent to remove conditions. It’s the perfect counter-synergy to give warriors a CHOICE! I suppose it’s hypocritical of me in that this entire time I was busy trying to balance out trait lines and build lines that I suddenly decide to have two Grandmaster Traits negatively impact one another, but that does not mean it still is not powerful. Having these two Grandmasters contradict one another is the most simple, logical way of nerfing the x/x/6/x/6 builds while still making them threatening enough.
If you decide Burst Mastery is no longer needed anymore, and you absolutely LOATHE blinds, I have made Brawler’s Recovery into something other than a punchline. Blind is to Warriors what Chill is to Elementalists/Mesmers, its just dreadful. A full discipline tree spent to hard-counter blind-spam is a great way to make variety and reduce Burst damage in the tree. It also can be used with Cleansing Ire for its full effect, I see potential.
Overview of Discipline Tree after my proposed changes:
The Discipline Tree as it is fits the profession perfectly. Adding a small negative to using Burst Mastery with Cleansing Ire will make the overall power level of abusing both less, and making Brawler’s Recovery a real Grandmaster trait whose intent shuts down blinds adds build variance.
Your suggestions for brawlers recovery is overpowered. Whereas your suggestion for CI just ensures that every warrior has to go 30 in defense.
Other then that, good read.
Your suggestions for brawlers recovery is overpowered. Whereas your suggestion for CI just ensures that every warrior has to go 30 in defense.
Other then that, good read.
If I may, can you explain where my change for Brawler’s Recovery is overpowered? For near 100% immunity from a single condition in the game you trade away Burst Mastery for it, is that an issue? Would a gap of a second or two (so instead of 5 seconds immunity, 4 or 3 seconds immunity) be more in line? Please get back to me on this when you can.
As for CI, it may guarentee that during the course of this condition meta CI will practically always be a requirement, however I am attempting to tone down the rest of the defense tree in so much that it might be more difficult to pull off the tankibility warriors have now, and instead might end up going more towards other trees than Defense and Discipline.
Man I just don’t see what is up with the CI hate. Personally I am glad that you are not a game designer for this game. I totally agree with what Cygnus said about CI. All you do is force all warrior to go 30 in defense. And no the tank-ability is not the issue, you are just decreasing build diversity. Have you been to either wvw or spvp lately, I can’t survive very long at all without Berserker stance even with CI and other conditional clear utilities. And when I play as a conditional warrior, I have no problem ripping other warriors to shreds. CI is not the issue.
You are posting as a warrior in the name of warrior balance so that you can nerf them. It sounds like a big lie, I am sorry to say.
(edited by bigmonto.4215)
Man I just don’t see what is up with the CI hate. Personally I am glad that you are not a game designer for this game. I totally agree with what Cygnus said about CI. All you do is force all warrior to go 30 in defense. And no the tank-ability is not the issue, you are just decreasing build diversity. Have you been to either wvw or spvp lately, I can’t survive very long at all without Berserker stance even with CI and other conditional clear utilities. And when I play as a conditional warrior, I have no problem ripping other warriors to shreds. CI is not the issue.
You are posting as a warrior in the name of warrior balance so that you can nerf them. It sounds like a big lie, I am sorry to say.
I…I don’t know what to say.
I suppose my small rant about CI might have implied to some that I thought it was OP, in actuality I think it is a wonderfully needed trait for warriors needing a means to use their mechanic to deal with conditions that needs to consistently stay as it is now.
But as I have stated it has too much power as a Master Trait, and the current state of the game forces it as a necessary trait to survive.
I actually think it is disgusting that Warriors are FORCED to take up this trait regardless of where it would be. If this trait was nerfed to Grandmaster in Tactics, Warriors would STILL take it out of the gross misuse of condition spam that wrecks the profession, and any profession in this game.
And if you take into fact the impact it has, and its power level relative to other traits in this game, putting it in grandmaster is not so far-fetched.
I can go into a talk about how bad other healing utilities are, how dreadful the physical ones are, the unpracticality of unviable weapons…but if you want to fix the warrior, you have to start from the ground-up. Do not automatically assume every post that wants to touch the warrior is a nerf, my suggestions are meant to help ground out the traits we have now so the profession won’t keep getting nerfed in terms of numbers on our abilities. Because honestly, if I see one more Healing Signet nerf thread, I might toss something out my window.
When it comes to Brawler’s Recovery I would rather have something that gives an effect that is useful against more than just a small number of builds. While blinds are annoying it’s not something a Warrior can’t beat. In sticking with the traits’ theme I would make there be only 2 seconds of blind resistance (of course still cleansing a blind of swap), maybe even just one, and make swapping weapons a stun breaker on an ICD. As for how long of an ICD I’m not sure, 9-10 seems short but it IS a GM trait and it’s very possible to be controlled right after switching. I like the idea of a anti-blind trait that you have to give up a strong trait for, but like I said if there’s no blind users around it’s totally worthless. I don’t like a theoretical 100% immunity because while I hate blind spam a change like this would cause nothing but a waterfall of tears from d/p Thieves and we’re still dealing with their constant smear campaigns.
CI has been and still is perfectly fine as is. It is the one of the most active forms of condition removal in the game. It requires either the use of a Bow or landing a burst skill where other classes are just “Remove/Transfer X number of conditions every X seconds.” For a class that is constantly called passive that seems pretty active to me. It’s also still VERY easy to overwhelm a Warrior with conditions when Zerker Stance is down. I don’t like playing condi Warrior but man does it look more and more attractive every day and it does eat other Warriors whole.
What Warriors really need is for the other healing skills to be made more attractive. Healing Surge punishes you for using your class mechanic, Mending Heals for an insignificant amount, and Defiant Stance has a cast time. I actually kind of like Defiant Stance because it actually lets me use glassy builds because if I get condi spiked or focused by a Thief I just activate it and that damage gets healed so I don’t NEED CI if I kill them fast enough. It also works really well with Frenzy because the stance heals you for all damage that would be delt and Frenzy increases the amount of damage you take. Where it can screw you over is that it has a cast time and the whole point of it is using it while under pressure. It’s also not affected by Stance-Related traits. I’m not sure if it would be OP for Sure-Footed to increase it to 4 seconds but if you think about it, the Warrior will probably NOT have a trait like Defy Pain and probably just avoid Endure Pain as well because it’s too risky because it being active at the same time would reduce your healing to 0, so that may balance it out. I think this heal has the most potential.
-Snip-
Brawler’s Recovery in my incarnation is absolutely a situational trait, but the thing is that of all the conditions in this game, Blind really impacts our playstyle. It can stop most of our burst skills save a few, it prevents adrenaline gain, and every profession has some amount of builds with decent blind uptime. The trait’s purpose is to eliminate this threat all together, but bear in mind it also involves said warrior having to weapon-swap constantly to keep the immunity going so the warrior can’t just sit in Main-hand axe swinging the whole time.
And yes, as long as conditions exist as they currently are, and there are not more options for warrior in other trees to help alleviate condition pressure, CI will continue to be a must.
And I ultimately agree with what you said about the other healing skills, but my discussion here is purely on the ground-work for the warrior, the traits. Once traits are established in a better state can we move on to things like Weapons, Utilities, and other warrior mechanics.
Agree w/ other posters: moving CI to GM does NOT increase build diversity. Leave it alone; the BM indirect nerf to CI you suggest is enough. Also, I don’t agree with modifying Brawler’s Recovery to complete Blind immunity (if switching often). From our perspective, it might still be situational, but if you’re a class that really relies on that (Thief/Guardian), it’s not fair to take that totally away from them. Maybe remove Blind and 2 sec Blind invul?
How can you possibly leave Tactics tree alone?! It has the worst collection of minor traits in the game! Make one of them a banner theme one: either move down the underpowered GM banner trait to GM minor, or have banners last 10-20% longer (depending where you put it), or do something new with them like “gives allies 25% Fear resistance” to fit in with the theme of an intrepid, inspirational leader. Or move Sweet Revenge to the GM minor trait under the Tactics line. Or consider moving Shrug It Off to a high minor trait. Or even moving Sure Footed to Master minor trait (seems more tactical oriented). The most straight-forward way to get people off HS and CI is to provide viable alternatives. Mending stands out as being a prime candidate. Bump up the healing a bit and you have a winner.
- snip -
I really can’t agree on not moving it up to grandmaster, honestly grandmaster traits MAKE the tree line, they have the biggest impact on builds and capabilities. You can actually see and notice the impact they have, and Cleansing Ire does exactly that.
We would not even be having this discussion if Conditions were not in such a good state as they are now. Maybe CI might not need to be moved now, but if and when certain condition-‘abusing’ (Not all condition-like) builds become more in-line with the rest of the game, will we see Cleansing Ire become something of an immunity as a Master Trait.
My changes might be a bit soon, perhaps anticipating a rework that will never come, but I am purely looking at the trait-lines and I see Cleansing Ire as a game-changing trait.
With that said, since there is such an apprehension, I will edit the post changing it to a relative change in the future. This only means that the current state of the game can’t afford warriors not having it as a Master trait, but it should be changed if warriors are going to be balanced.
Now, the minor traits of the tactics line. Your biggest qualm is that they are the weakest point of the tactics line. I disagree heavily, they are reactive support traits that balance out nicely with the Shout, Banner, and Phalanx warriors that run them in any setting. Shout Warriors are probably the least likely to like them that much in WvW, unless it is some sort of small scale combat where they can pull off a rez and that 400 toughness, 10% rez speed, and a bit of might on revive helps. Banner Warriors I would like to see a bit more in PvP, but rezzing allies is HUGE in that environment, and having my suggested change to Powerful Banners in the Strength tree would help make them more of a thing. Lastly, Phalanx Strength Warriors are more in between, but 400 Toughness makes them a hell of a lot less glassy when someone stupidly gets down by Mossman to get them back up.
Tactics is EXTREMELY balanced and worth the investment for Support orientated builds.
if you want to fix the warrior, you have to start from the ground-up.
I don’t understand why you think that warrior is so broken that you have to fix warrior from the ground-up. Do you play warrior at all?
In fact I would say warrior is the embodiment of good RPG design. Why? it encourages experimentation. With a warrior you really just need CI + 10 to 15 in Discipline to get warrior’s sprint and maybe fast hand. Other than that everything else goes. Some are more effective than others, but none are very terrible. If you just look around the warrior forum, you will know that the number of warrior build is just staggering.
In almost all RPGs I play there are perhaps 1 to 2 meta builds per class. You can in theory try other builds, but they are just so bad that they get destroyed instantly.
I also don’t feel Warrior is OP, as base on my experience, I get destroyed as much as I have destroyed. But the biggest thing is that as a warrior I can always survive a while so that I feel like I am contributing to something. I cannot say that playing as other classes.
I would say Anet should try to give other classes the same options.
I don’t understand why you think that warrior is so broken that you have to fix warrior from the ground-up. Do you play warrior at all?
The traits aren’t quite 100% ok, some aren’t synergetic at all with gaps between what makes a condition build versus what helps a power build, and so on and so forth. It’s also getting rather stale to keep insinuating I do not play warrior, I know how strong they are, I know where they are weakest. I also know we are not in a good state as everyone seems to think, my changes are to prevent a worst case scenario.
In fact I would say warrior is the embodiment of good RPG design. Why? it encourages experimentation. With a warrior you really just need CI + 10 to 15 in Discipline to get warrior’s sprint and maybe fast hand. Other than that everything else goes. Some are more effective than others, but none are very terrible. If you just look around the warrior forum, you will know that the number of warrior build is just staggering.
What I bolded is not build variety, that’s build necessity. You have implicitely proven the issue with our profession in a whole half of this game. There are multiple other builds other professions can work with that don’t involve using the same exact traits over and over again, why are we choked into going into Defense tree every single time?!
Don’t you see the issue with that? Warriors are flawed from the get-go, so rather than continuing to call for nerfs to various things making Warriors “Viable” now, why not start from the beginning, set the groundwork and then work on things like the Miserable incarnation of Mending, the contrary mechanic of Healing Surge, the stupid clunky Physical utilities, Riflelol, etc.
I am extremely aware of just how close we are to being somewhere near where we were at Launch. Why do you think we are so much fun to balance?
In almost all RPGs I play there are perhaps 1 to 2 meta builds per class. You can in theory try other builds, but they are just so bad that they get destroyed instantly.
Fortunately Guild Wars 2 seems to have flunctuating amounts of meta builds across professions, in which can get molded into either WvW comps, PvE comps or SPvP comps. This game seems to have the most freedom, as you described, for builds. The problem is that warriors, unless I am mistaken, are the only profession which is forced in over half their viable builds to run CI. Is there any trait in any other profession as needed as Cleansing Ire?
I also don’t feel Warrior is OP, as base on my experience, I get destroyed as much as I have destroyed. But the biggest thing is that as a warrior I can always survive a while so that I feel like I am contributing to something. I cannot say that playing as other classes.
I would say Anet should try to give other classes the same options.
Of course other professions have this issue as well, but everyone seems to be under the impression that warrior can’t possible lose power. We have only a single tree that keeps us viable in any Player versus Player setting. No other profession that I recall has this issue, and the sooner we make it so Cleansing Ire is not the only viable solution for dealing with conditions, the sooner Warriors can achieve REAL build diversity.
I do agree that Cleansing Ire does need a rework, however putting CI as a Grandmaster trait is the worst possible thing you can do to it.
Tactics however, the minor traits are garbage for the most part. Nobody has a reason to go into this tree other than shout healing, or might stacking in pug parties in dungeons.
Determined Revival is fair for a minor trait and actually isn’t bad. 400 toughness while reviving isn’t terrible at all and does have its good uses. It is probably our best minor trait in tactics
However Faster Healer and Reviver’s Might are completely garbage. I don’t know if any of you guys have tested Faster Healer but literally the revive is only a second faster.
And seriously 1 stack of might to your party when you revive?????? How can anybody justify this actually being a good grandmaster trait.
Tactics would be a more viable choice in sPvP/roaming builds if it had worthwhile minor traits. You don’t even need to change its identity as a quote on quote support tree. Just rework the traits. Tactics as it stands right now is more of an all or nothing tree with no in between.
I do agree that Cleansing Ire does need a rework, however putting CI as a Grandmaster trait is the worst possible thing you can do to it.
Tactics however, the minor traits are garbage for the most part. Nobody has a reason to go into this tree other than shout healing, or might stacking in pug parties in dungeons.
Determined Revival is fair for a minor trait and actually isn’t bad. 400 toughness while reviving isn’t terrible at all and does have its good uses. It is probably our best minor trait in tactics
However Faster Healer and Reviver’s Might are completely garbage. I don’t know if any of you guys have tested Faster Healer but literally the revive is only a second faster.
And seriously 1 stack of might to your party when you revive?? How can anybody justify this actually being a good grandmaster trait.
Tactics would be a more viable choice in sPvP/roaming builds if it had worthwhile minor traits. You don’t even need to change its identity as a quote on quote support tree. Just rework the traits. Tactics as it stands right now is more of an all or nothing tree with no in between.
Minor traits aren’t supposed to be ground-breaking, although I will confess the single stack of might for a grandmaster minor upon revive is a touch…weak. Regardless there are about 3 different builds (and to each of those their variations) that commit already to this tree for 30 (6) points, which is why I can’t really validate given the tree an unnecessary buff. …Maybe the grandmaster could be increased healing power?
Fast Healer is absolute good as it stands, a single second is definitely the difference between someone getting revived or someone getting stomped. It has its nitch, and that’s perfectly fine for a minor trait. Hence the name ‘Minor’.
I still don’t understand the problem with CI. Most critics of Warrior complain that the class is too passive yet at the same time we see posts saying that the most active form of condi removal in the game is OP. There seems to be no pleasing either side.
Critical Burst become useless if used with Burst Precision. I d think that this trait (Arms 3) need be reworked, sent to grandmaster tier, and replaced by Dual Wielding Agility which his turn needs work with all weapons (the skill name could be changed)
I do agree that Cleansing Ire does need a rework, however putting CI as a Grandmaster trait is the worst possible thing you can do to it.
Tactics however, the minor traits are garbage for the most part. Nobody has a reason to go into this tree other than shout healing, or might stacking in pug parties in dungeons.
Determined Revival is fair for a minor trait and actually isn’t bad. 400 toughness while reviving isn’t terrible at all and does have its good uses. It is probably our best minor trait in tactics
However Faster Healer and Reviver’s Might are completely garbage. I don’t know if any of you guys have tested Faster Healer but literally the revive is only a second faster.
And seriously 1 stack of might to your party when you revive?????? How can anybody justify this actually being a good grandmaster trait.
Tactics would be a more viable choice in sPvP/roaming builds if it had worthwhile minor traits. You don’t even need to change its identity as a quote on quote support tree. Just rework the traits. Tactics as it stands right now is more of an all or nothing tree with no in between.
Minor traits aren’t supposed to be ground-breaking, although I will confess the single stack of might for a grandmaster minor upon revive is a touch...weak. Regardless there are about 3 different builds (and to each of those their variations) that commit already to this tree for 30 (6) points, which is why I can’t really validate given the tree an unnecessary buff. ...Maybe the grandmaster could be increased healing power?
Fast Healer is absolute good as it stands, a single second is definitely the difference between someone getting revived or someone getting stomped. It has its nitch, and that’s perfectly fine for a minor trait. Hence the name ’Minor’.
They aren’t supposed to be ground-breaking, but they are also not supposed to be negligable either. For example look at other traits such as the Strength minor adept trait. Reckless Dodge is an amazing minor trait. Fast Hands is an amazing minor trait and that arguably is ground-breaking. Adrenal Health is really decent. Armored Attack is really good.
10% Revive Speed and Might on Revive suck and aren’t even situationally good. Often times there is more than one person reviving somebody, which makes the 10% even more negligable, somebody uses a warbanner, they rally off of another kill, or that 1 second revive speed made no difference whatsoever. Maybe if it was replaced with another support minor that person you are supporting may have survived, whether it be an aegis or something.
Some people go 25 into Defense because Armored Attack is good, or 15 into Discpline because Fast Hands is nice, or 5 into Strength because they like Reckless Dodge. When minor traits offer up decent alternatives and make you go hmmmm maybe I want this instead of getting another major trait, it encourages more diversity and different builds which is healthy.
Now nobody would go 5, 15, or 25 into tactics and like I said before it is pretty much a 30 or nothing tree. Even Leg Specialist is getting less popular.
Reviver’s Might is more than a touch ... weak. There is no reason to sugar coat in such language just say it is absolutely trash.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
Now, the minor traits of the tactics line. Your biggest qualm is that they are the weakest point of the tactics line. I disagree heavily, […]
Tactics is EXTREMELY balanced and worth the investment for Support orientated builds.
Ok, we aren’t gonna agree on the usefulness of the Tactics minor traits. Judging by comments I’ve seen here and other threads, I’d say you are in the distinct minority. Nonetheless, can we agree that having them all “while reviving” traits is at least situational and lacks variety? The only other trait line that keeps to a common theme like weapon swapping (Discipline) at least focuses on a very commonly used mechanic. How about just for the sake of variety, let’s get something a little more interesting and more frequently used. You can keep whichever while reviving trait you’d like (they’re all barely useful to me), but let’s get some variety. I already threw out suggestions. Did any of the themes strike a cord?
Sorry, got caught up with errands.
@BurrTheKing, Cleansing Ire is perfect as it is. Until the moment where conditions aren’t ripping people apart thus the trait becomes broken for any builds still running the hypothetically nerfed conditions, it should stay in Master. …Or until Arenanet puts options in things like Strength Tree or an alternative in Discipline.
@JETWING, Burst Precision is a Grandmaster in Strength, there is no conflict.
@killahmayne and @perko (Same inquiry and discussion), good points.
- I will say that the Tactics Minor Traits when compared to the other tree lines are in relative strength much weaker than the counterparts. On that same token, the Tactics Major traits are the most synergetic of the trees, as you know exactly what traits in the line to take at each tier for any support build the warrior might run with slight variation and the relative power very much the same.
- My worry is that by making the minor traits too appealing that the delicate balance of the Tactics tree might get nerfed as a whole to compensate, it already does its job very well for Shout Warriors, Phalanx Warriors and some regard, the semi-underpowered Banner Warrior. If we start saying Reviver’s Might should be something like “Banner bonuses are now 10% more effective” or “Fear Durations are reduced by 25%”, you can expect something like hard nerfs to other major traits or worse, the abilities themselves.
- But if you want, I did have some ideas for the minor traits which I did not put in, if this is an avenue people wish to pursue?
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