Guild Wars 2

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you try to maintain a conversation by assuming the worst about a person, the conversation will never go anywhere. You assume I just want to nerf Thieves into the ground to make them easy kills. At that point, our ability to have a discussion has been killed. If you are really interested in hearing an answer to a question, why are you framing it in an inflammatory way and attempting to put me under the interrogation spotlight by assuming guilt?

…

And if you want me to help you understand Power Necro, I’ll be more than happy to. I only wish the same could be said for Stealth Thieves.

You victimize yourself all you want, but you’ve assumed the worst about me, and thieves in general, throughout this discussion. I’m assuming that until you give any sort of actual input on how you would compensate a nerf to thief’s stealth mechanic, that yes, you are just wanting to nerf thieves. The TL:DR on just about every one of your posts so far has been, “I can’t react to a thief stealthing like other players can, therefore it should be changed.” News flash: just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it needs to be changed. Every time a thief offers advice to a person like you, you just shoot it down and say something silly like, “well that’s not reasonable because I shouldn’t have to predict something because I can’t see it” even though you have the ability to educate and know full well what that thief’s next move will be. There’s a reason good thieves don’t struggle against other thieves, and it’s because they know how to abuse the stealth mechanic better. It’s because they know what a thief’s next move will be, even when they can’t see them.

Why is it alright for you to assume that i’m a “fundamentally flawed level” if I were to lose to a chain fear from a necro, but nobody is allowed to assume you’re inexperienced if you die to a good thief using his stealth mechanic? Do you understand that you’re not on a pedestal? Stop thinking so highly of yourself. You’re no better than the rest of us.

“Power Necro is a really strong build in small-scale even fights and large-scale fights in general. The kicker is that everything they do is visible and allows you to react to stimulus, instead of lack of stimulus.”

Alright cool, and stealth thief builds are REALLY strong in 1v1. Thanks for acknowledging the fact that certain builds and classes are better in certain situations. That should help clear up why good thieves take you to the cleaners on occasion. They are built for it better. It’s in the class design. The reason why thieves get so much stealth to allow them to do this, you might ask? Because without stealth thieves have the worst access to boons, almost no condition removal, and no damage spiking abilities. Stealth is everything to 9/10 thief builds, and the ones that don’t rely on stealth rely on so much evade that “evade spamming thief” builds have been complained about on this forum as well. If you nerf stealth, be ready to fight a thief you can see but will still rarely hit, and be ready to come on this forum and start asking for nerfs again. Good thieves will beat you 1v1 if you refuse to understand them, regardless of build. This applies to any class.

“As to your question, I’m not going to answer it, because you’ll simply pick it apart without providing any substance”

Wow, you sure showed me! So we’ll stick you in the “Nerf thief but give them nothing in return” camp. That’s where comments like that one place you. Congratulations on being no better than Burnfall and Sanduskiel. “I’m mainly combing for someone who wants to have an actual discussion on it or provide real insight into situational tells that I keep hearing about, besides the ones I already listed based on weapon set/revealed status above.” I tried doing this originally, and you just denied the fact that I was ever trying to help you understand stealth thief mechanics, instead choosing to say “no, the mechanic is just flawed.” You don’t want to understand stealth, you just don’t want to have to change what you’re doing to deal with it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

yolo swaggins.2570:

You can always play a stealth thief, Cogbyrn. Best way to understand something is to be one yourself.

Are you that loathe to have a conversation about it? I know I can play one. I actually jumped back on a low-level Thief I have to watch it CnD from various camera angles in order to implant an appropriate visual cue that I can piggyback off of for more accurate dodging. I think the cast time is too short and the animation is too subtle given how strong of an ability it is, but that doesn’t mean I’m not trying to adapt to the situation at hand.

I come to the forums to have discussions. If you don’t want to have a discussion, what are you doing on a forum?

From what I have read you want to have a debate rather than a conversation. Those in defense are trying to tell you it is not that simple and quite frankly they are right. In fact, just today I was trying to practice the cnd combo on a moving target with one of my friends and I had a very hard time landing one.

But it wasn’t because I sucked at it, it was because he saw me charge at him.

I didn’t understand it at first but the way he explained it was he noticed multiple cues like breaks in attacking, charging head on, etc.

For example, a thief who keeps applying pressure will maintain a minimum initiative of ~3. However that isn’t enough for a high cost attack. So if the thief suddenly stops pressuring for about 2 seconds and is keeping close, chances are they are about to CnD soon. At that point you dodge.

So we switched roles and I tried using his advice. It took me a few tries but eventually I started avoiding his CnDs.

The point is: figuring out the thief isn’t as simple as you would think at first but a little practice with players who know what they are doing helps.

godz raiden.2631:

Stop thinking so highly of yourself. You’re no better than the rest of us.

…

“I’m mainly combing for someone who wants to have an actual discussion on it or provide real insight into situational tells that I keep hearing about, besides the ones I already listed based on weapon set/revealed status above.” I tried doing this originally, and you just denied the fact that I was ever trying to help you understand stealth thief mechanics, instead choosing to say “no, the mechanic is just flawed.” You don’t want to understand stealth, you just don’t want to have to change what you’re doing to deal with it.

Laughed out loud at the first part. And I’m victimizing myself, he says.

To the second part, you didn’t try very hard. Move unpredictably, try to discourage a Thief from using CnD, and a generic comment about how a Thief has tells based on health/weapon sets/positioning. No attempted explanation of what those tells are, not even when I tried my hand at them.

Again, you want to steer the discussion away from focusing on the merits of Stealth as a mechanic. You did exactly what I thought you’d do in your response, and you’re working on heating up your inflammatory responses. Good stuff.

Does anyone care to discuss Stealth and various class interactions with it?

EDIT – Yes, I do want to have a debate. I want people to add substance to their side of the argument, not “Go play one” or “It’s fine” or “Learn to play” or “But Warriors are imba”. What you just did, yolo, is a very strong step towards having a real discussion about it, and I appreciate that. It’s the kind of detail I like to go into as well.

What about having occasional skills that remove stealth, but don’t apply Revealed? Obviously, they would be AoE skills, either ground-targeted or PBAoE.

For example, Stomp on Warriors could be a PBAoE. Corrosive Poison Cloud on Necros could be ground-targeted. Most classes have skills that I think could work for this. Would need to be careful on where they get used, but that’s true of any new capability.

If a skill removes stealth, but does not apply Revealed, the opponent can still jump into stealth again, but it gives the non-stealther a window to either fight back or try to disrupt it again. It also means those hiding in stealth for extended periods would have to pay closer attention to what their opponent was doing in case they got taken out before they were ready. It allows counterplay opportunities that currently do not exist, and the only punishment for the stealther is that their current stealth ends. If they are set up for it, they can stealth again.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What about having occasional skills that remove stealth, but don’t apply Revealed? Obviously, they would be AoE skills, either ground-targeted or PBAoE.

For example, Stomp on Warriors could be a PBAoE. Corrosive Poison Cloud on Necros could be ground-targeted. Most classes have skills that I think could work for this. Would need to be careful on where they get used, but that’s true of any new capability.

If a skill removes stealth, but does not apply Revealed, the opponent can still jump into stealth again, but it gives the non-stealther a window to either fight back or try to disrupt it again. It also means those hiding in stealth for extended periods would have to pay closer attention to what their opponent was doing in case they got taken out before they were ready. It allows counterplay opportunities that currently do not exist, and the only punishment for the stealther is that their current stealth ends. If they are set up for it, they can stealth again.

I chose Reveal only because I know something similar already exists in the game and would theoretically be easier to add to other skills. I’m not sure whether or not there is a mechanic in the game to just remove stealth and that’s it. There’s also the issue of using one of these skills on a target in Shadow Refuge. If it doesn’t cause Reveal then they will instantly re-stealth like nothing happened. Wouldn’t be too bad for Fear Me and Stomp but any other skills on other classes that would get this buff wouldn’t necessarily be so lucky.

Shadow Refuge in general complicates the whole discussion. Like I said earlier though I’m not here to demand direct nerfs to any one class. Even giving a few skills Reveal would still only make them useful against 2-3 classes (4 if you want to count LB Rangers I guess), 2 of which aren’t that bad to begin with when it comes to stealth.

Skills that just remove stealth but don’t add Revealed could be interesting, especially if they are added to abilities like Poison Cloud that are otherwise not used very often. With Rangers/Engis/Mesmers also being able to use Stealth, it suddenly isn’t just an ability that is “anti-Thief” in the context of using up a utility slot for a single class. Not that I don’t already swap my utilities around if I have a preview of which class I’m about to face, but it feels cool. At the very least, it provides more direct feedback to the counterplay.

Also, I think my tendency to go hard in the paint in discussions at times does a disservice to those who are trying to come up with new and interesting solutions to their perceived problems. I think defense of Stealth and Thieves in general is something that should be happening, so it would be awesome to see thoughts on what might need to be changed from a Thief perspective to accommodate a change like this.

For example, if certain AoE abilities can remove Stealth, perhaps CnD can have its Initiative cost reduced to 5 instead of 6. Anything to stay away from “Well Warriors don’t need it because Healing Signet is robble robble robble”, unless an argument can be made that Warriors already have enough tools to deal with a Stealthed target to the point where they don’t have to worry. That could be blocks, evasions, mobility, etc., but some classes may not really need something like this. I think that analysis could be useful, if we have level-headed reps from each class, including Thieves, to weigh in on how well they feel they can counter Stealth (Thieves will, ideally, provide additional insight into how classes counter their Stealth to add to the discussion).

I think that’d be an interesting discussion to have, and I’ll stop potentially side-tracking with semi-off-topic walls.

Also, I think it would be fine if Shadow Refuge kept re-stealthing them. If you use your stealth reveal on top of Shadow Refuge, you should either know that:

1. You’re doing it to reduce the total amount of stealth they have coming out of it.
2. You messed up and should be using it more appropriately.

If a Thief decides to use Shadow Refuge on top of some sort of AoE reveal, then they’re making a play with a cooldown to allow them to continually re-stealth while sacrificing a longer stealth duration, which could really help them in a pinch.

Seems fine to me at a glance.

I think the idea of certain abilities removing stealth, but not causing reveal would be pretty interesting. It not only allows for some counterplay against thieves from some classes who don’t have access to as many defensive mechanics (like Necro, as Cogbyrn has reminded me time and time again), but it also heightens the skill cap for thief players. It gives us something more to take into consideration and would make fighting certain builds on certain classes more challenging.

If the game was saturated with too many abilities being able to caused reveal, stealth builds on thieves would be demolished, but adding a mechanic that simply removed stealth without causing revealed could make for some much more active fights while allowing the balance team to put focus on thief balance in areas other than stealth.

Ewwww I agreed with Cogbyrn… XD jk

I think people often don’t realize that Necros have no “infinite damage” defensive mechanics in the form of anything anywhere besides out-of-box dodge. It’s easy to overlook because literally every other class has something. It’s just that if Necros had it too, it’s very possible Death Shroud would become imbalanced. It’s a strange situation.

Though if you went to the Necro forums, you’d learn it in a hurry. In fact, they’d be delighted to tell you, especially re: PvE.

Also, I’m glad to see you’re open to an idea like this, godz, so that I know some Thieves are open to ideas that change their class in an attempt to make them more rewarding for skilled players, and you know that not all of us want to just nerf Thieves into dust.

EDIT – It took the Plague Signet change for me to realize I could have been using the signet to drop the BP blind instantly to try to then fear the Heartseekering Thief out of the air before stealth hits. Before it would have just missed, which is a bummer, but I still should have been doing it.

So, it sounds like I had a good idea? Cool!

In that case, what skills should be stealth-strippers? No applying Revealed, though. Ideally, these skills would be ones that currently don’t see much use, and all must be AoE skills.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, it sounds like I had a good idea? Cool!

In that case, what skills should be stealth-strippers? No applying Revealed, though. Ideally, these skills would be ones that currently don’t see much use, and all must be AoE skills.

possible candidates are:
engineer:
-Thumper Turret (looks promising)
-smoke vent in flamethrower
-glue shot
-Elixer X
-bombs
-grenades
-maybe slick shoes.

mesmer:
-null field
-time warp
-chaos storm

thief:
-caltrops
-blinding powder

guardian:
-hallowed ground
-purging flames
-smite condition
- symbols
-shouts
-protecters strike (looks promising)

necromancers
-marks
-corrosive poison fields
-wells
-unholy feast
-enfeeble
-locust swarm
-plague form
-grasping dead

ranger
-traps
-shouts (both pet and ranger)
-bonfire
-whirling defense
-barrage
-healing spring
-spirit actives
-Call of the wild

warrior
-combustive shot
-stomp
-shouts
-plant standard (this one looks very promising)

elemenalist
-phoenix
-ring of fire
-shatterstone
-water trident
-earthquake
-churning earth
-ring of earth
-magnetic wave
-swirling winds
-lava font
-meteor shower
-ice spike
-geyser
-healing rain
-static field
-eruption
-arcane brilliance
-arcane wave
-glyph of storms
-lighting storm (hammer)
-magnetic surge (also looks promosing)
-Ice storm
-Fire storm
- Tornado

I think that’s all of them but I’m not sure.

No to any more AoE please.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Fade.7658:

tldr: Just another whine from someone who can’t be bothered to make an effort to learn.

Paired nicely with the bitter cheese from people who ardently defend the mechanic without considering the possibility that it’s neither fun nor rewarding for a large number of people to play against.

Whining about stealth is an MMO forum staple. And it is for the same so-called reasons: “fairness” – “balance” blah blah. No matter the game, WoW, Lotro ect … the outcry against stealth is always there. And in those games, just as with this one, 95% of the time it’s simply a L2P issue by poor to average WvW players who want to solo-roam, but are just not very good at it, no more and no less.

And trying to argue reasonably to a guy that regularly gets stomped in WvW roaming is a dead-end; he’s just furious that his ability to facetank NPCs in PvE does not work on real live people. What he wants is a “short cut” to having to play better, and that short cut is ALWAYS the same two whines, however it may be disguised: 1. spam post and shout that your class does not have enough DPS, and 2. spam post and shout that the other guys class needs a nerf.

The reason stealth classes bear the brunt of the spam posting QQ demanding the other guy needs nerfs is because of the personal nature of it … it’s one thing for a player to die in a zerg blob to another zerg blob … that death is abstract in a sense. But when he tries to test his poor skills vs a single opponent that will dance on his corpse after exposing that he needs to l2p a bit more … it’s personal, and thus you see the emotionally wrought QQ in the forums.

Guys (and especially thieves) you just need to learn to take these type of threads for what they are.

Actually the issue with stealth isn’t just that the victim didn’t see the attacks coming; it’s that bonus damage was also often added in just for being stealthed as well.

This is fine in a turn based genre where the mechanic originated because the recipient has ample time to process what happened and formulate an appropriate reaction, but it breaks combat balance very quickly in a real-time game where the damage boost allows TTK to be so fast the backstab receiver does not get enough time to perceive threat→react appropriately.

Which is why the Mesmer implementation of stealth is much more palatable and somewhat less complained about, because it was not treated as damage boosting effect on top of the other benefits it inherently grants. It’s just a tool in the class kit, not something class defining.

Ision.3207:

Whining about stealth is an MMO forum staple. And it is for the same so-called reasons: “fairness” – “balance” blah blah. No matter the game, WoW, Lotro ect … the outcry against stealth is always there. And in those games, just as with this one, 95% of the time it’s simply a L2P issue by poor to average WvW players who want to solo-roam, but are just not very good at it, no more and no less.

And trying to argue reasonably to a guy that regularly gets stomped in WvW roaming is a dead-end; he’s just furious that his ability to facetank NPCs in PvE does not work on real live people. What he wants is a “short cut” to having to play better, and that short cut is ALWAYS the same two whines, however it may be disguised: 1. spam post and shout that your class does not have enough DPS, and 2. spam post and shout that the other guys class needs a nerf.

The reason stealth classes bear the brunt of the spam posting QQ demanding the other guy needs nerfs is because of the personal nature of it … it’s one thing for a player to die in a zerg blob to another zerg blob … that death is abstract in a sense. But when he tries to test his poor skills vs a single opponent that will dance on his corpse after exposing that he needs to l2p a bit more … it’s personal, and thus you see the emotionally wrought QQ in the forums.

Guys (and especially thieves) you just need to learn to take these type of threads for what they are.

I will grant you that whining about stealth is a staple in many MMOs, but from my experience it has always worked both ways.

1) People without stealth complain about being stealth attacked.
2) People with stealth complain about being countered, or exposed and how it is too easy for other classes to do that.

I have seen a lot of the first, but not nearly as many as the second. Anet also has a stealth system very different than any other MMO.

But in the sake of a healthy argument I would ask you, what changes could Anet make to stealth that would finally make it OP (ideally the smallest change(s) that would finally tip the scale in your mind)?

There is no need to add reveal skills, period. Why? Because people will only hurt themselves in the long run by wasting a utility slot to deal with something that they probably already have the tools to deal with while also sacrificing the slot for something they may actually need (stun breaker, condi clear, cc, etc). I highly doubt that such reveal additions would be put onto popular utility skills, more than likely onto skills that make sense and of them only “sic em” did because pets can sniff out the enemy (and to give rangers something to chew on since they aren’t in the best position for balance).

Most people don’t understand stealth counters, which is fine. It’s not like when you joined this game you fight a bunch of stealth npc’s and are given traps or big neon signs saying “AOE HERE!” or “PREPARE TO BLOCK”, etc. Saying that you don’t understand stealth counters is fine, but saying they don’t work at all is just ignorant. The issue with flat nerfs to stealth or granting reveal to a bunch of skills is you simply trash any thief who spec’s into SA. They survive from entering and staying in stealth, and for good reason because it is the best of the 2 defensive trait lines. Unless there is some compensation rather than “just remove it” don’t expect much cooperation amongst other players.

Many thief players have given their advice in dealing with stealth (haven’t seen many Mesmer’s giving counters, did we forget they stealth too?). Also many thieves have offered solutions to mechanics that need tweaking without straight up pulling a nerf bat out to break the glass cannon and still people keep reposting the same sob stories after blocking out any real advise anyone tries to give. It’s not as broken as people claim it to be, it just takes knowledge to counter and experience. Instead of asking for nerfs, how about practice in hot-join?

Tim.6450:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, it sounds like I had a good idea? Cool!

In that case, what skills should be stealth-strippers? No applying Revealed, though. Ideally, these skills would be ones that currently don’t see much use, and all must be AoE skills.

possible candidates are:
engineer:
-Thumper Turret (looks promising) (may limit to active)

mesmer:
-null field

thief:
-caltrops
-blinding powder (Blinding Powder wars?)

guardian:
-hallowed ground
-purging flames

necromancers
-corrosive poison cloud

ranger
-traps (probably spike trap)
-spirit actives (Sun Spirit or Storm Spirit would thematically be best)

warrior
-stomp
-plant standard (this one looks very promising)

elemenalist
-glyph of storms

I think that’s all of them but I’m not sure.

I narrowed down the list to, what are in my mind, the most reasonable candidates. No short cooldowns, most are rarely used, and all have cast times that allow the stealthed character to react to the cast and avoid being de-stealthed. I’m not personally a fan of melee range ones, because if you have a stealthed opponent in melee range, he’s probably already executing his first attack.

I also added my personal comments in bold.

NinjaEd.3946:

snip

So if I appropriately time a dodge against a Thief I can’t see and Evade the Backstab, then get Backstabbed at the end of my dodge roll, that’s perfectly fine and well-designed? Just curious if you see a problem with that scenario.

Cogbyrn.7283:

NinjaEd.3946:

snip

So if I appropriately time a dodge against a Thief I can’t see and Evade the Backstab, then get Backstabbed at the end of my dodge roll, that’s perfectly fine and well-designed? Just curious if you see a problem with that scenario.

Am I the only one who finds this terribly amusing in light of what this poster has said many, many times about condition application?

Cogbyrn.7283:

NinjaEd.3946:

snip

So if I appropriately time a dodge against a Thief I can’t see and Evade the Backstab, then get Backstabbed at the end of my dodge roll, that’s perfectly fine and well-designed? Just curious if you see a problem with that scenario.

Just stop.

There is nothing wrong w/ stealth or thieves, and to be perfectly honest Mesmers > Thieves 1v1.

Quality responses so far. One thinks that having 2 bleeds applied in a follow-up cast is equivalent to Backstab, and the other is using the usual evasion to avoid the question.

Cogbyrn.7283:

NinjaEd.3946:

snip

So if I appropriately time a dodge against a Thief I can’t see and Evade the Backstab, then get Backstabbed at the end of my dodge roll, that’s perfectly fine and well-designed? Just curious if you see a problem with that scenario.

Say there are 2 points. Point A is where you stand right now, and point B is where you will end up if you dodge rolled. If you dodge roll from A to B and see “evade” there is only 1 place the thief could be. A front-backstab is very weak, but that also gives you a indicator on where to throw an AoE or cc skill. Now don’t be ridiculous and spas out with button smashing, generally a thief who see’s their enemy evade a backstab will dodge toward them because they know what most people do in that case.

Any other scenario’s feel free to post, I’ll gladly go step by step if this wasn’t helpful enough.

FLiP.7680:

Play a thief and you know how to kill them. Reveal shouldn’t be a skill or condition like they did in Sic’ em.

Why not?

Stealth counters targeting.
Stability counters hard CC builds, negating them completely for a time.
Cleansing counter condition
Blocks/dodges counter damage
Immobilize, Chill, and Cripple counter Stability.
Conditions counter toughness/armor.

And the list goes on and on. If you are going to claim that this specific function is so special that it deserves to be outside the scope of a counter, you are going to have to present one heck of a strong argument.

I agree with this discussion.

I think the only ability that shouldn’t be changed is SR since you can be knocked out of it (aka a counter). That should stay as a strong and hard stealth especially being a utility (not something passive).

NinjaEd.3946:

Cogbyrn.7283:

NinjaEd.3946:

snip

So if I appropriately time a dodge against a Thief I can’t see and Evade the Backstab, then get Backstabbed at the end of my dodge roll, that’s perfectly fine and well-designed? Just curious if you see a problem with that scenario.

Say there are 2 points. Point A is where you stand right now, and point B is where you will end up if you dodge rolled. If you dodge roll from A to B and see “evade” there is only 1 place the thief could be. A front-backstab is very weak, but that also gives you a indicator on where to throw an AoE or cc skill. Now don’t be ridiculous and spas out with button smashing, generally a thief who see’s their enemy evade a backstab will dodge toward them because they know what most people do in that case.

Any other scenario’s feel free to post, I’ll gladly go step by step if this wasn’t helpful enough.

So the answer was “Yes, it’s fine for a Thief to be dodged and still be able to re-try a Backstab within the same Stealth.”

I appreciate your willingness to help deal with the current state of the mechanic, and I realize it’s on-topic. However, I’m still surprised you can think that’s good design. That’s the argument I’m making: I think the current interaction between Stealth and Backstab is really poor game design.

The fact that it’s even possible for a player to be rewarded with proper anticipation by still taking the spike damage is insane to me. Yes, it can kind of be dealt with, but should it really have to be?

Backstab out of stealth is good game design because it keeps people from taking stupid silly risks like just running around a map solo in pvp. I play numerous classes and really don’t worry about the thief having what is obviously the point of a backstab!

The counterplay comes AFTER the thief hits you because now they are quite vulnerable if you react fast. Now you know a thief is in the area and can AE and anticipate next strikes too.

If anything, I would think the way to fix the problem would be to better see the thief go into stealth. This could be as easy as slowing the thief’s stealth movement when OUT of combat while increasing it IN combat. That means, you would definitely see more thieves going into stealth before the fight but they would have a bit better chance setting up strikes.

Not all classes are designed to have an easy time after such a sudden strike. But on the other hand, not all classes are designed to deal with a necromancer’s condi swap (just ask an engineer). That is fine. There are plenty of classes that can deal with the thief. You shouldn’t be on your own.

Cogbyrn.7283:

The fact that it’s even possible for a player to be rewarded with proper anticipation by still taking the spike damage is insane to me. Yes, it can kind of be dealt with, but should it really have to be?

I don’t see what your issue is then. If it can be dealt with, then why is it an issue?

I can deal with conditions on a thief, although I generally struggle (same with engi). Should I have to struggle? Your issue with stealth seems to be only the uptime on it, which is an issue. Popping in and out of stealth is easy to counter but when they stalk you for 5+ seconds its hard to counter their attempts (not impossible though). That evade is rewarded, because you usually see them revealed or front-stab you by the time you recover from the roll, thieves don’t waltz into a back stab unless you give them the opportunity.

I would have much less of a problem with Backstab if the Thief’s opponent was consistently rewarded for dodging it, more than taking half-damage since you got stabbed in the front (if I recall, stabbing in the side still gives full Backstab damage) or potentially taking full damage if the Thief gets to your side in time. Sometimes the Thief doesn’t attempt the Backstab until the final moments, so your dodge is enough to escape the threat. But not all the time.

That’s my biggest problem.

And “counter-play” isn’t “dealing with the aftermath of an opponent’s play”. It’s actively being able to play against an opponent’s play. To use DOTA 2, the counter-play to Pudge’s hook doesn’t come after you get hooked. That’s Pudge executing his play and you now having a really bad time. The counter-play is being able to be generally aware of the hook spots and keep distance/creeps in the way to insure you can’t be hooked.

Appropriate counter-play stops the play. That’s my take, anyway. I’ll accept doing a head-count and dodging if I have to, but even that isn’t sufficient at times. Why shouldn’t it be?

EDIT – The issue is that you dodged an invisible attack successfully, and the game still allows you to be hit by the same invisible attack at basically no cost to the Thief. Name another mechanic where dodging a class’s burst is rewarded by being hit by the same burst 1 second later. Usually, dodging a burst is a time-buying mechanic that costs your opponent some sort of cooldown before they are ready again.

Part of my issue with stealth is how frequently a Thief can go back into it, but even that would be less of a problem if Backstab wasn’t so forgiving.

It’s fine if you think everything in the game is a non-issue because something out there can deal with it. That’s sort of the impression I’m getting, regardless of what it takes to deal with the mechanic in question or what sort of effort is put into utilizing the mechanic in question.

I just don’t think Stealth promotes fun gameplay. It promotes frustrating gameplay. That’s how I see it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I would have much less of a problem with Backstab if the Thief’s opponent was consistently rewarded for dodging it, more than taking half-damage since you got stabbed in the front (if I recall, stabbing in the side still gives full Backstab damage) or potentially taking full damage if the Thief gets to your side in time. Sometimes the Thief doesn’t attempt the Backstab until the final moments, so your dodge is enough to escape the threat. But not all the time.

That’s my biggest problem.

And “counter-play” isn’t “dealing with the aftermath of an opponent’s play”. It’s actively being able to play against an opponent’s play. To use DOTA 2, the counter-play to Pudge’s hook doesn’t come after you get hooked. That’s Pudge executing his play and you now having a really bad time. The counter-play is being able to be generally aware of the hook spots and keep distance/creeps in the way to insure you can’t be hooked.

Appropriate counter-play stops the play. That’s my take, anyway. I’ll accept doing a head-count and dodging if I have to, but even that isn’t sufficient at times. Why shouldn’t it be?

EDIT – The issue is that you dodged an invisible attack successfully, and the game still allows you to be hit by the same invisible attack at basically no cost to the Thief. Name another mechanic where dodging a class’s burst is rewarded by being hit by the same burst 1 second later. Usually, dodging a burst is a time-buying mechanic that costs your opponent some sort of cooldown before they are ready again.

Part of my issue with stealth is how frequently a Thief can go back into it, but even that would be less of a problem if Backstab wasn’t so forgiving.

It’s fine if you think everything in the game is a non-issue because something out there can deal with it. That’s sort of the impression I’m getting, regardless of what it takes to deal with the mechanic in question or what sort of effort is put into utilizing the mechanic in question.

I just don’t think Stealth promotes fun gameplay. It promotes frustrating gameplay. That’s how I see it.

Along that same line, wouldn’t counterplay to backstab then be blocking/dodging/interrupting the attack that puts thieves into stealth with an obvious setup? Appropriate play stops the ability to backstab. The only non-counterable access to stealth a thief has is blinding powder. Even if you manage to let the thief get into stealth, you have the opportunity to halve or negate all of the following burst.

I would also like to reiterate that backstab multiplier is 2.4 where the total combined multiplier of the autoattack chain is something like 2.26. If it takes the thief longer than 2 seconds to land a full damage backstab, then you are taking less damage than you would have from their autoattack in that timeframe. If you make them land it from the front, you’re taking significantly less than you would have from autos. Backstab has the damage it does to make up for the loss in pressure that happens while sitting in stealth.

Maugetarr.6823:

Along that same line, wouldn’t counterplay to backstab then be blocking/dodging/interrupting the attack that puts thieves into stealth with an obvious setup? Appropriate play stops the ability to backstab. The only non-counterable access to stealth a thief has is blinding powder. Even if you manage to let the thief get into stealth, you have the opportunity to halve or negate all of the following burst.

I would also like to reiterate that backstab multiplier is 2.4 where the total combined multiplier of the autoattack chain is something like 2.26. If it takes the thief longer than 2 seconds to land a full damage backstab, then you are taking less damage than you would have from their autoattack in that timeframe. If you make them land it from the front, you’re taking significantly less than you would have from autos. Backstab has the damage it does to make up for the loss in pressure that happens while sitting in stealth.

Yes, actually. Stopping a Thief from getting into Stealth is an option. As you said, though, Blinding Powder + Heartseeker is extremely easy to use, but extremely difficult to defend against. Comboing Steal with CnD is a little more difficult to do, but seeing the slight left-arm pull-back from 900+ range and dodging within a half-second is much more difficult to try to do without guessing in some manner.

Really, it’s all the little things. Thieves can get back into stealth pretty easily, all things considered. Some ways you can train yourself to avoid consistently enough to make it a fight, but the game doesn’t lend itself to that result: you have to pursue it aggressively. You have to accept that the Backstab can land even if you dodge it and set yourself up to deal with that result. If you down a Thief in Shadow Refuge, it’s very, very possible that the Thief will have plenty of time to get him/herself back up.

This is mostly from a WvW roaming perspective, which is a Thief’s playground. I get that. It just feels TOO much like a Thief’s playground for me to not mention it on threads like this.

And if you want to pull the “Game isn’t balanced around WvW roaming” card, that’s fine. But if it’s balanced around Conquest, then remove Stealth from the game entirely and give the classes who can currently stealth different tools. You can’t contest a point with Stealth, so get rid of it. Give the classes different options. Or make it a short-term distraction that is used for utility, not damage, while compensating for the loss of damage on Dagger somewhere else.

Though I could be wrong. Do many organized tPvP teams run a stealth-based Backstab Thief to jump the enemy when they move from one point to another? If not, then all we seem to be left with is a pub-stomping troll build. Is that good game design? I just don’t think so.

I do think giving a few select utilities the ability to remove Stealth but not apply Reveal in an area would be interesting, and I think that using an ability while in Stealth should remove Stealth regardless, but only apply Revealed if it does damage. This applies to all classes, including Mesmers who blow Phantasms while stealthed and remain stealthed. If Thieves need to be compensated in some way for this, then do it. I’m fine with that.

I doubt ANet will change it, and it isn’t going to stop me from solo roaming on my Power Necro. I still think it’s one of the more interesting/polarizing mechanics in the game, so I enjoy sharing thoughts on it. I don’t want Thieves to be free kills, I just think there’s room for improvement.

The thing I don’t like about counter play arguments coming from thieves is that is is all guess work. Here is the scenario.

fights starts, thief stealths, is he coming in for a backstab or is he just trying to bait out my blocks and evades, better block just to be safe. I block nothing, thief just danced around me and spammed a few non lethal attack and stealths again. Looks like he is trying to bait out my blocks and evades but what if he is really going to attack this time, better dodge just to be in the safe side. AND, dodge nothing, thief is just laughing while he dances around spamming more low cost attacks and stealths again. I only have 1 dodge left, if I use it for nothing I will die in the next few seconds, if I don’t use and he is really coming in for an attack this time I am dead in the next few seconds.

It’s all guess work, there is no real skill in anticipating attacks from an invisible opponent. It comes down to luck. Am I lucky enough to be fight a nub thief that will follow a predictable pattern or am I fighting someone with half a brain that remotely know his class. If I am fight to former I will get an easy thief kill, if I am fighting the latter I might as well just sit and let him kill me cause there is nothing I can do to stop it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maugetarr.6823:

Along that same line, wouldn’t counterplay to backstab then be blocking/dodging/interrupting the attack that puts thieves into stealth with an obvious setup? Appropriate play stops the ability to backstab. The only non-counterable access to stealth a thief has is blinding powder. Even if you manage to let the thief get into stealth, you have the opportunity to halve or negate all of the following burst.

I would also like to reiterate that backstab multiplier is 2.4 where the total combined multiplier of the autoattack chain is something like 2.26. If it takes the thief longer than 2 seconds to land a full damage backstab, then you are taking less damage than you would have from their autoattack in that timeframe. If you make them land it from the front, you’re taking significantly less than you would have from autos. Backstab has the damage it does to make up for the loss in pressure that happens while sitting in stealth.

Yes, actually. Stopping a Thief from getting into Stealth is an option. As you said, though, Blinding Powder + Heartseeker is extremely easy to use, but extremely difficult to defend against. Comboing Steal with CnD is a little more difficult to do, but seeing the slight left-arm pull-back from 900+ range and dodging within a half-second is much more difficult to try to do without guessing in some manner.

Really, it’s all the little things. Thieves can get back into stealth pretty easily, all things considered. Some ways you can train yourself to avoid consistently enough to make it a fight, but the game doesn’t lend itself to that result: you have to pursue it aggressively. You have to accept that the Backstab can land even if you dodge it and set yourself up to deal with that result. If you down a Thief in Shadow Refuge, it’s very, very possible that the Thief will have plenty of time to get him/herself back up.

This is mostly from a WvW roaming perspective, which is a Thief’s playground. I get that. It just feels TOO much like a Thief’s playground for me to not mention it on threads like this.

And if you want to pull the “Game isn’t balanced around WvW roaming” card, that’s fine. But if it’s balanced around Conquest, then remove Stealth from the game entirely and give the classes who can currently stealth different tools. You can’t contest a point with Stealth, so get rid of it. Give the classes different options. Or make it a short-term distraction that is used for utility, not damage, while compensating for the loss of damage on Dagger somewhere else.

Though I could be wrong. Do many organized tPvP teams run a stealth-based Backstab Thief to jump the enemy when they move from one point to another? If not, then all we seem to be left with is a pub-stomping troll build. Is that good game design? I just don’t think so.

I do think giving a few select utilities the ability to remove Stealth but not apply Reveal in an area would be interesting, and I think that using an ability while in Stealth should remove Stealth regardless, but only apply Revealed if it does damage. This applies to all classes, including Mesmers who blow Phantasms while stealthed and remain stealthed. If Thieves need to be compensated in some way for this, then do it. I’m fine with that.

I doubt ANet will change it, and it isn’t going to stop me from solo roaming on my Power Necro. I still think it’s one of the more interesting/polarizing mechanics in the game, so I enjoy sharing thoughts on it. I don’t want Thieves to be free kills, I just think there’s room for improvement.

Well I think thieves were already in a decent place, and burst was reduced by about 20% and sustained damage was reduce by 10%. When I play an alt, its usually a glass mesmer, and that usually had no problems taking down thieves, but it has the tools to so. I use GS on it and most of the time if a thief drops shadow refuge they end up dying after I knock them out of it. Warriors, engineers, guards, and necros also have the tools to deal with it. Before changes are made, let’s see how the changes to spike damage affect thieves because any proposed changes that seemed unnecessary (to me) before seem even more unnecessary now.

Counters to stealth that do not apply revealed sound interesting. This way it comes down to the thief’s reaction speed to try stealth again and it also comes down to the enemy to properly time their stealth counter and land their burst/CCs. Depending on the amount of stealth counters thieves may need some buffing/compensation in other areas though, because they have very little going for them outside of stealth.

Listen I get where you’re coming from, that it’s not fun to play the stealth based class that excels at dueling.
But… can you also make the game fun and enjoyable for the thief as well if they want to not do one role(roaming) only…? If you can do that then sure, nerf it thereafter however you want in terms of it’s 1v1/roaming/dueling… Right now playing a thief in a zerg is not fun, it’s annoying and frustrating being melted like helium. Supporting? Lol, please, guardians (and actually warriors) are much better for that, or any other class for that matter (save ranger, not sure what state they’re are in post-patch but… pre-patch… lol).
If you’re planning to tell me to re-roll if I want zerg, I have. So if that was your suggestion, I suggest you re-roll a thief if you want to duel (or get your said cheese).
That’s really my frustration, getting nerfs, then being targeted for more nerfs… while having to switch to my gaurd/warrior when I want to zerg (WvW, though warriors and guards have better uses in the dungeon too, only starting to learn all of their capabilities).

You’re attempting to get a nerf/counter on something that provides the class with it’s role. In no way do you care about balance/fairness, otherwise you would look at the class as a whole and what it’s capable of besides “cheesing” and making you QQ on the forums. It’s weird, isn’kitten that most thieves prefer to duel, and are generally QQ’ed about it. Yeah one way to look at it is they’re OP in that one area. Another way to look at it is that they only really have that one area (and yeah they do excel at it).

So while you guys are providing counter skills for the feared stealth… can you guys also provide ways for the thief to zerg/support and do other things besides roaming/dueling. Or say how they’re fine in each other area…

Oh yeah, it’s not PvX (for the title of the thread)… it’s PvP in general… or sPvP/tPvP and WvW (most QQ’s come from WvW). I doubt anyone really cares about the thief going stealthed in a dungeon (PvE).

(Cya in an hour… flood control debuff OP)

Zero Day.2594:

Listen I get where you’re coming from, that it’s not fun to play the stealth based class that excels at dueling.
But… can you also make the game fun and enjoyable for the thief as well if they want to not do one role(roaming) only…? If you can do that then sure, nerf it thereafter however you want in terms of it’s 1v1/roaming/dueling… Right now playing a thief in a zerg is not fun, it’s annoying and frustrating being melted like helium. Supporting? Lol, please, guardians (and actually warriors) are much better for that, or any other class for that matter (save ranger, not sure what state they’re are in post-patch but… pre-patch… lol).
If you’re planning to tell me to re-roll if I want zerg, I have. So if that was your suggestion, I suggest you re-roll a thief if you want to duel (or get your said cheese).
That’s really my frustration, getting nerfs, then being targeted for more nerfs… while having to switch to my gaurd/warrior when I want to zerg (WvW, though warriors and guards have better uses in the dungeon too, only starting to learn all of their capabilities).

You’re attempting to get a nerf/counter on something that provides the class with it’s role. In no way do you care about balance/fairness, otherwise you would look at the class as a whole and what it’s capable of besides “cheesing” and making you QQ on the forums. It’s weird, isn’kitten that most thieves prefer to duel, and are generally QQ’ed about it. Yeah one way to look at it is they’re OP in that one area. Another way to look at it is that they only really have that one area (and yeah they do excel at it).

So while you guys are providing counter skills for the feared stealth… can you guys also provide ways for the thief to zerg/support and do other things besides roaming/dueling. Or say how they’re fine in each other area…

Oh yeah, it’s not PvX (for the title of the thread)… it’s PvP in general… or sPvP/tPvP and WvW (most QQ’s come from WvW). I doubt anyone really cares about the thief going stealthed in a dungeon (PvE).

(Cya in an hour… flood control debuff OP)

Thieves do have a purpose in zerg warfare. Their job in zerg warfare is not to run with the zerg. Stay away from the melee train and gank and harass the enemies back line. Take out their Eles and stragglers that stray from the blob. We often run with have 2 thieves when our guild has enough online for precisely that purpose Without eles the opposing group doesn’t have water fields to reset on and they slowly die. The sad thing is thief is not high the priority list for organized groups. Guardians, Warriors, Eles, and Necros come first.

NinjaEd.3946:

I don’t see what your issue is then. If it can be dealt with, then why is it an issue?

Look, if I become invulnerable due to a bug and can freely DoT you up (my direct attacks cause no effect), you can deal with that, by cleansing them. Do you not think it’s still an issue?

I see a lot of talk from thieves on here about anticipating skills (for example interrupting CnD). It is extremely important to note that while anticipating skills is valuable, it is a tactic that is far less risky for thieves as compared to classes with normal cool downs.

If a thief misses a headshot, no big deal – only four seconds of initiative lost, and you can immediately try again if you’d like. For most other classes, you really don’t have the luxury of guessing with your cc cool downs.

Just how other classes need to understand the subtleties of a shared cd pool, it would be nice for thieves to think about the consequences of separate cool downs before lecturing someone with a l2p argument.