Guild Wars 2

BurrTheKing.8571:

1. “Warrior has no weaknesses”

This is the most recent bit of propaganda I’ve been seeing in great numbers. It often comes hand in hand with some statement about how they can do everything in one build or at least an implication of such. One would think that if this statement were true then we would only ever see Warriors. I mean, if they have no weaknesses then why wouldn’t you run a 5 Warrior PvP team. If this claim is true then they would probably dominate. In WvW, I would see no reason to run anything other than Warrior as well. A good Warrior player should also never lose to a good player of any other class, right?

That is flawed logic. But I can’t blame you, it comes with the warrior mentality of wanting to have everything. A hambow warrior for instance is very much broken in PvP imho. They can cover the cap point in fire, are very resilient, put out very strong sustain damage, have one of the most amazing condition cleanses on a ridiculously low cool down and can make themselves immune to conditions for 8-10 seconds on top of that every 60 seconds, if I remember right. I fail to see the weaknesses in this particular build. Yes they have not much mobility, but that doesn’t hurt too much when contesting points. Most of the other professions/builds have to deal with more serious disadvantages at the same time. See Shatter Mesmer for instance (considered the most/only viable build for mesmer in top PvP). They can deal serious damage and boon strip and with portal can have/give a very good mobility around the map, they are paper and often don’t have any condition cleanse. They have to be on top of their game often when fighting a Hambow Warrior, while the warrior can make mistakes after mistakes and still has good chances of winning the fight. The Mesmer on the other hand mustn’t make any mistake, or he is dead.

Having no disadvantages doesn’t necessarily mean they are good at doing everything. This are different issues. Also Hambow warriors are very effective in the lower skill levels, but lose some of their advantage on higher skill levels. But you cannot balance everything around the top tier levels of gameplay, especially in a game that wants to appeal to the casual gamers.

I agree though that, if there are weaknesses, they are tied to the warrior build, rather than the profession. While this can be a disadvantage as a lock down warrior if your foe has perma stability, it is only a weakness for this particular build.

Over all the problem is, that warriors have I win buttons against certain other builds/professions. For example: Immunity to conditions against a condition Necromancer can mean certain death for the necro. The warrior can burst him down, while the necromancer losses the majority of ways to hold up his defenses (no cripple, no chill, no fear, no weakness, which a necromancer needs to stay alive). If the necro has some life force, he can hide in deathshroud, only that this is depleted, when the fight starts for him…

TyPin.9860:

Having no disadvantages doesn’t necessarily mean they are good at doing everything. This are different issues. Also Hambow warriors are very effective in the lower skill levels, but lose some of their advantage on higher skill levels. But you cannot balance everything around the top tier levels of gameplay, especially in a game that wants to appeal to the casual gamers.

Apparently, this is exactly how it is done.

And think of it this way. If you make warriors weaker in the lower tiers, they will be weak in the high tiers.

Besides, this PvP format in gw2 is what’s wrong with warriors in PvP. Ever met a Hambow in WvW? It is ridiculous how easy they are to beat.

The problem, I find, is that the overall gameplay of the Warrior is not only easier, but also more forgiving.

I can watch anime while playing GW2 and the difference in my DPS is a very low drop in my overall damage because of not using skills immediately as they go off cooldown in my roration.

However, if I play on my Mesmer, I have to actively pay attention to enemy animations, timings and other small quirks.

Now, to be fair, as a Mesmer, the class is being shoved into a utility only role, so it does make sense that a Warrior will deal more damage, but I think the problem is how easy it is to deal damage, bring utility, and survive as a Warrior.

Well, Esplen, how does a Warrior deal damage, bring utility, and survive? Warrior has one of the highest DPS. Now, that’s not to say they have the highest (not including cheese strategies like FGS or Bearform) overall damage and dps. It’s pretty fair to say they have the overall highest DPS versus effort, though. I doubt many people will argue (unless we’re talking PvP). Warrior utility? Banners, Fury, Might. Yes, a Warrior can, by themselves, almost give full Might to a party permanently. Survivability on a Warrior, in PvE, makes everything seem easy. After having played thousands of hours on my Mesmer, I got a Warrior to level 80 during Crown Pavilion Boss Blitz. I instantly geared it with Arah gear, so I have one of every weapon and full armor, everything is Berserker except my trinkets which are either green Berserker or Ascended PTV (Backpack). I can outdps and outsurvive my Mesmer, both are to be expected, however it takes a lot less effort even though I miss out on on-demand Invulnerability, Evasion, and Reflects. My Warrior, on the other hand, only needs to use Endure Pain versus big fights like Lupicus (especially if my group likes to spawn bubbles) and can take plenty of hits without worrying. On my Mesmer, if I take one hit, then my health is either going to stay at 1% for half a minute, or I’m down. If, by chance, I actually have my utility I mean, Heal, skill up, then I’ll be at 50% HP. On my Warrior, not only can I take at least 2 hits that my Mesmer couldn’t (at LEAST), but I also heal without ever pressing the Heal button. Heck, I’m usually sitting around 75% health because I can slack off and take the extra hits.

Tl;dr: Warrior is too easy to play in most cases. It can do too much with too little effort.

I have an 80 Mesmer, Warrior, Thief, and Necro. Each of them I have done extensive solo play in scenario’s like Arah solo. My main with more than 80% of my gametime is my Mesmer. The easiest of my characters to play is my least geared character, my Warrior.

If you really want, I can go into Thief and Necro, although I haven’t really used my Thief except as a bank for about a year.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

6. “Warrior is simply OP overall don’t even try to defend it”

They are right. It’s OP. Don’t even try to defend it.

Would you like to defend your post? Or would you like to stick to your post that proves nothing?

I told you already I have one piece of evidence that beats everything:

I’m rather experienced in PvP (top 200 or so), but I’not a great player. I play with friends in the top 100. The other day I told them I wanted to train with my ele main against warriors as point defender. So we fight and I lose a lot (or declare loss, in the sense that getting hit by any eviscerate or pin down puts my life so low that I can not reliably hold the point anymore). So my friend, who is skilled and experienced with all classes tells me I should play warrior to try. Therefore we swapped classes: me on warrior, him on ele. I did not look at him, I had my eyes fixed on my skills, I did not dodge even once, but I wrecked him. I had no idea what I was doing and I wrecked him. We proceeded to do this against other classes and I wrecked most of them too.

So if a noob like me who has never played warrior even once before can destroy an experienced player, how is this class not bloody OP?

You forgot to add ‘theme’ to your post.

That might be appropriate.

Yeah that’s indeed how it felt!

Edit: oh I realise you think I am making this up Well you can check my ranking, as for the rest you are going to have to believe me.

TyPin.9860:

BurrTheKing.8571:

1. “Warrior has no weaknesses”

This is the most recent bit of propaganda I’ve been seeing in great numbers. It often comes hand in hand with some statement about how they can do everything in one build or at least an implication of such. One would think that if this statement were true then we would only ever see Warriors. I mean, if they have no weaknesses then why wouldn’t you run a 5 Warrior PvP team. If this claim is true then they would probably dominate. In WvW, I would see no reason to run anything other than Warrior as well. A good Warrior player should also never lose to a good player of any other class, right?

That is flawed logic. But I can’t blame you, it comes with the warrior mentality of wanting to have everything. A hambow warrior for instance is very much broken in PvP imho. They can cover the cap point in fire, are very resilient, put out very strong sustain damage, have one of the most amazing condition cleanses on a ridiculously low cool down and can make themselves immune to conditions for 8-10 seconds on top of that every 60 seconds, if I remember right. I fail to see the weaknesses in this particular build. Yes they have not much mobility, but that doesn’t hurt too much when contesting points. Most of the other professions/builds have to deal with more serious disadvantages at the same time. See Shatter Mesmer for instance (considered the most/only viable build for mesmer in top PvP). They can deal serious damage and boon strip and with portal can have/give a very good mobility around the map, they are paper and often don’t have any condition cleanse. They have to be on top of their game often when fighting a Hambow Warrior, while the warrior can make mistakes after mistakes and still has good chances of winning the fight. The Mesmer on the other hand mustn’t make any mistake, or he is dead.

Having no disadvantages doesn’t necessarily mean they are good at doing everything. This are different issues. Also Hambow warriors are very effective in the lower skill levels, but lose some of their advantage on higher skill levels. But you cannot balance everything around the top tier levels of gameplay, especially in a game that wants to appeal to the casual gamers.

I agree though that, if there are weaknesses, they are tied to the warrior build, rather than the profession. While this can be a disadvantage as a lock down warrior if your foe has perma stability, it is only a weakness for this particular build.

Over all the problem is, that warriors have I win buttons against certain other builds/professions. For example: Immunity to conditions against a condition Necromancer can mean certain death for the necro. The warrior can burst him down, while the necromancer losses the majority of ways to hold up his defenses (no cripple, no chill, no fear, no weakness, which a necromancer needs to stay alive). If the necro has some life force, he can hide in deathshroud, only that this is depleted, when the fight starts for him…

Just to say that mesmers have good condition cleanse. They just dont trait / use their utilities.

A warrior trait and uses his utilities. Usualy a warrior is not zerker if he wants to be viable, but also, mesmers and warriors have diferente roles so it makes sense to one to use zerker and the other dont.

Comparing classes is not the clever thing to do.

I think people are kittened about warriors not because they are strong, its because its so easy and effortless to be good. Most other classes have to work hard and on top of their game to be efficient in pvp/pve.

I mean put an average player on a zerker ele or zerker warrior without knowing much bevorhand about both classes and watch the outcome.

It does not feel right if I have to press tons of buttons, memorize bazillions of cooldowns and switch attunements if a warrior can archive the same thing half afk with 3-5 buttons.

@BurrtheKing
The advantage of the warrior is at the same way his weakness.
Let me explain.
The reason why so many beginners are “good” with warrior is because warrior has a simple mechanic. For example, to deal huge damage he only has to hit with f1 eviscerate. Compared to a shatter mesmer who has to throug his sword Gs 2 → blink during the animation → dodge after and shatter with f1, it’s easy to handle.
But at the same way it’s horrible easy to evade and neglate warrior attacks.
It’s easier to avoid an eartshaker than an elementalist burst combo or a full shatter.

It isn’t that new that even good warriors are losing against any decent S/D thief or med guard who are able to outplay a warrior completly with evades , blocks and blinds.
This is btw. the reason why Longbow is such a strong weapon. Because those attacks aren’t that easy to evade (ofc pindown is) You’ve ever noticed that a Hambowarrior with berzerk stats deals more condition dmg than dmg with his hammer against S/D thiefs ?
Warrior isn’t OP, just easy to handle for beginners.

warrior not OP l2p issue for every other class that isn’t warrior XD

Mayama.1854:

I think people are kittened about warriors not because they are strong, its because its so easy and effortless to be good. Most other classes have to work hard and on top of their game to be efficient in pvp/pve.

I mean put an average player on a zerker ele or zerker warrior without knowing much bevorhand about both classes and watch the outcome.

It does not feel right if I have to press tons of buttons, memorize bazillions of cooldowns and switch attunements if a warrior can archive the same thing half afk with 3-5 buttons.

But it’s not the same thing.

Warriors are easy to pick up, and they are easy to do decent to great with. But they are not the best. The only thing that keeps them in PvE groups is banners, they are outclassed in DPS and support otherwise by half the professions in the game. They can’t provide the necessary support a Guardian can (actually, NO one could provide what a guardian can, blocks are amazingly critical), any of the squishier professions if played right will beat a warrior’s DPS even in his/her most optimal play.

In PvP we are under this delusion that due to the single point capture meta (since A-Net hasn’t released any new modes that could influence potential PvP builds on the rotation) all the best builds are the ‘placeholders’ of what balance needs to be around.

News flash, they don’t. Hambow is strictly MADE to do well in SPvP or should I say Point Capture, and even that requires some semblance of good play since everyone and their mother knows just how predictable the warrior abilities are. Anywhere else? The Hambow Warrior is so kitten slow, and Combustive Shot is far less effective when an enemy does not have to rely on keeping a very small point contested.

In WvW, we have this lovely dilemma of Hammer-Trains. I could go into immense detail about the sheer overwhelming issues with the game-mode and balance, but let’s just say it is pointless to even suggest we balance the game around it.

My point in all this is, the Warrior’s ease of play is a blessing and a curse. It’s easy to do decent, but there is a limit on how far your skill will take you.

I have already stated that I want warriors to be at the same standard, or at least have a bit more depth, as the other professions. I WANT the ease of play to be nerfed, in the hopes that Warriors who have reached the wall like I have can excel further by having whatever depth put in be a buff to the potential power of the profession IF played right.

I do not want Warriors to be gutted for the sake of ‘oh they are easy to play’, that’s not making a profession better, that’s effectively removing a profession from the game.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Miss a dodge against a warrior = you are dead

Warrior stands still without dodging = signet will heal it up without you having to do anything

That only works if your average damage is less than 390 dps.

Meaning every class build (other than warriors) that isn’t power or zerker. You have to build into those for every other class to pull off that much power against a warrior.

RyuDragnier.9476:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Miss a dodge against a warrior = you are dead

Warrior stands still without dodging = signet will heal it up without you having to do anything

That only works if your average damage is less than 390 dps.

Meaning every class build (other than warriors) that isn’t power or zerker.

If you do less than 390 dps, you should get something better than a FINE weapon.

xbutcherx.3861:

RyuDragnier.9476:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Miss a dodge against a warrior = you are dead

Warrior stands still without dodging = signet will heal it up without you having to do anything

That only works if your average damage is less than 390 dps.

Meaning every class build (other than warriors) that isn’t power or zerker.

If you do less than 390 dps, you should get something better than a FINE weapon.

You expect condi, support, and tank builds in full exotic to pull off more than 390dps every 3 seconds?

RyuDragnier.9476:

xbutcherx.3861:

RyuDragnier.9476:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Miss a dodge against a warrior = you are dead

Warrior stands still without dodging = signet will heal it up without you having to do anything

That only works if your average damage is less than 390 dps.

Meaning every class build (other than warriors) that isn’t power or zerker.

If you do less than 390 dps, you should get something better than a FINE weapon.

You expect condi, support, and tank builds in full exotic to pull off more than 390dps every 3 seconds?

This is exactly the reason we see so many Warrior posts ^^…!

Well lol this is hilarious, If you expect condition and not doing 390 dps then this game is not for you, if you expect tank you can do damage but don’t expect to do a lot to another tank because is a never-end fight, and support? seriously? if you do support on Spvp or WvW and not do 390 dps this game is not for you.

@silentnight warrior.2714:
Yes, Mesmer have good condition cleanses. You can squeeze in some good cleansing traits/utlities on a phantasm build for example. Just that this kind of build is not of a big use in top PvP. You can as a shatter mesmer also squeeze in some cleanses. But then you loses the ability to portal and/or the ability to stun break and/or the ability to rip boons and/or damage. Shatter mesmers would basically make themselves more and more useless to a team, the more they squeeze in condition cleanses. The Hambow Warrior on the other hand has good sustain DPS, nice defenses and can easily hold points and still has this good cleanses.

The Hambow warrior represents an optimal build for holding points with no weaknesses to exploit. That doesn’t break the whole profession, but the lack of “natural enemies” certainly breaks this build. It can only be consistently outplayed by a good to very good player.

@Cygnus.6903:
No, making warriors weaker on lowers skill level would not make them weaker for higher skill level. Not, if you make profession more demanding. The profession should be partly redesigned, that you have to pay more attention to what you do and that mistakes are more punished. So that a good player can compensate for those weaknesses. This way we can see, who really has the skill, or who is carried by the Hambow build in current form.

@Sykper.6583:
Speaking about Hambow warriors they are optimal for the conquest type game mode. The lack of other PvP maps makes this build very very strong. Of course this is not only due to the profession, but also due to the map type. But that is always the case. ILeap of Mesmers for example is considered pretty weak, because it bugs out very often. As a Mesmer, you already know where this will happen and you will adept. It is the same Mesmer in environment issue than is the warrior in environment issue. And currently the warrior is optimal for its environment. Changing either might also change this dynamic. Both would suffice, but ANet isn’t implementing anything about it atm., thus, leaving the warrior in his comfortable Hambow build state.

xbutcherx.3861:

RyuDragnier.9476:

xbutcherx.3861:

RyuDragnier.9476:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Miss a dodge against a warrior = you are dead

Warrior stands still without dodging = signet will heal it up without you having to do anything

That only works if your average damage is less than 390 dps.

Meaning every class build (other than warriors) that isn’t power or zerker.

If you do less than 390 dps, you should get something better than a FINE weapon.

You expect condi, support, and tank builds in full exotic to pull off more than 390dps every 3 seconds?

This is exactly the reason we see so many Warrior posts ^^…!

Well lol this is hilarious, If you expect condition and not doing 390 dps then this game is not for you, if you expect tank you can do damage but don’t expect to do a lot to another tank because is a never-end fight, and support? seriously? if you do support on Spvp or WvW and not do 390 dps this game is not for you.

I set on a condi-bomb on a Warrior, he uses a burst with Cleansing Ire (I’ve never seen a Warrior not take this) to remove it. It takes me at least 6 seconds to put more conditions on. In that time he has healed back the damage and has gotten his burst back. It’s a neverending cycle against the warrior, depending on the class he’s up against. Remember, not many classes can condi-bomb that fast or that often.

@ TyPin.9860

This build have all that you said with the exception of portal. You can switch Arcane Thievery with portal but you lose the ability to steal boons and i find very rewarding removing to my mesmer the 10+ stacks of might, fury and swiftness from a warrior and give him 6 stacks of bleed, immo and sometimes torment or burning.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJAWRl0npKtFpxNNcrNCrxc6kK6JSOQAl8irB-TJRHwAp3fQwlAAwTA4YZAA

Good damage, regeneration, vigor, good heals, very good condition removal, stun breaks with stability (this one can avoid a hammer combo because it gives stability after the stunbreak), boon steal and boon removal.

The thing is its not a roamer build and people want to roam with mesmer.

@silentnight

I’m sorry, but that spec does not have “Good damage” as you say. It has maxed out conditions clears, but thats it. Which is kind of the point of why people complain about Warriors. They don’t have to give up anything to do everything. Other classes do. That build is a prime example. The only thing that build does is clears conditions and even then it only does it for so long. Cause as soon as those mantra charges are up, you got nothing.

@silentnight warrior.2714:
I was using a similar build in PvP some time ago. I but had instead of celestrial amulet a zerker amulet. The condition removal on this kind of build is kinda insane, fully agree there (you actually could get rid of some cleansing utility for interrupts for example). I was practically immune to any kind of condition build. However, lacking the cool down reduction for illusion summoning and lack of reliable might stacking severely hurts damage output of the mesmer.

Now when we compare that to Hambow Warrior again, then it still remains that they have the optimal contesting build without weaknesses and to outplay a warrior you still need to be simply better than the warrior player by a significant amount. Your build on the other hand lacks damage output and you also, as a very squishy profession, lack a sufficient healing burst in your build. Mantras can become also very disadvantageous in a longer fight, if your enemy knows what he’s doing. So again, although you have eliminated weaknesses of the normal IP shatter build, you have gained other weaknesses instaed. The Hambow build lacks a real weakness…

EDIT:
I would actually change your build to the following, but I guess that’s up for personal taste and focus:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJAWRlknpCtlpxNNcrNCrxc6kK6JSOQAlsirB-TJRHwAp3fQwlAAwTA4YZAA

Now try to play this in a high level tPvP setup. You could exchange some utility for portal… well you must in fact. If not, than the team simply will take another profession that does the same as this build, but simply better…

I figured since we got on the topic of PvP I should bring up that I really disagree with how it’s designed. The capture points are just too small and having it so that one person can totally deny the cap when most other games makes it just slow it down.

In theory larger cap points and making the cap go to whoever has the most players on point would make things much more interesting, especially from a spectator standpoint. In theory it would space everyone out more and would encourage more DPS builds since being a super tank would only delay things while killing other players actually makes the cap start moving in your favor. Larger points would also help with decap builds since if you’re fighting in the middle of a point you may not knock them off point or at least not far enough to keep them off long enough to take the point.

This would nerf the effectiveness of builds like Hambow and Turrets (you could avoid Thumper, Earthshaker, and Combustive Shot without leaving the point) without actually changing the classes themselves. With Mesmers they could more easily keep their clones alive. More room also means you can add more terrain decoration.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I figured since we got on the topic of PvP I should bring up that I really disagree with how it’s designed. The capture points are just too small and having it so that one person can totally deny the cap when most other games makes it just slow it down.

In theory larger cap points and making the cap go to whoever has the most players on point would make things much more interesting, especially from a spectator standpoint. In theory it would space everyone out more and would encourage more DPS builds since being a super tank would only delay things while killing other players actually makes the cap start moving in your favor. Larger points would also help with decap builds since if you’re fighting in the middle of a point you may not knock them off point or at least not far enough to keep them off long enough to take the point.

This would nerf the effectiveness of builds like Hambow and Turrets (you could avoid Thumper, Earthshaker, and Combustive Shot without leaving the point) without actually changing the classes themselves. With Mesmers they could more easily keep their clones alive. More room also means you can add more terrain decoration.

This thing right here. It’s not that Warrior is super OP or that they don’t have weaknesses, but the fact the HamBow build is super optimal for the conquest mode in sPvP.

The size of the ring and the AoE of combustive is too close to each other. The ring itself doesn’t give much room to dodge around and use mobility against warrior because basically when you are inside the ring, you are next to your enemy.

The major weakness HamBow has is mobility and inside that ring you can’t use it against warrior, making warrior feel too strong, which, warrior is for this conquest game mode.

In GW1 I remember some PvP mode, forgot its name, where you had to capture points. There you had a bar with arrows. The more friendly players on the cap point, the more the number of arrows switched in your wanted direction and caping/decaping became faster. Each enemy player get an arrow in his direction, neutralizing one of your arrows and thus slowing down or reversing your caping/decaping.

Also I agree that cap points should be bigger, so that AoE can not cover the whole point.

Warrior do have one weakness, the player behind it.

SlimChance.6593:

@silentnight

I’m sorry, but that spec does not have “Good damage” as you say. It has maxed out conditions clears, but thats it. Which is kind of the point of why people complain about Warriors. They don’t have to give up anything to do everything. Other classes do. That build is a prime example. The only thing that build does is clears conditions and even then it only does it for so long. Cause as soon as those mantra charges are up, you got nothing.

Hi.

That build does good damage against glass builds. Its the same with warriors, they deal good damage against glass but against bunkers its not good.
You can switch one mantra for another utility you like and arcane thievery its not mandatory, That build have already very good sustain against conditions and you can heal 5000 + remove 4 conditions every 9/11 seconds plus the condition removal on shatters so it gives you even more condition removal than warriors with CI.
I can give that build even more damage if i change runes, sigils, amulet but i lose movement speed (you can minimize this with portal or blink)

“Cause as soon as those mantra charges are up, you got nothing.” When a warrior gets out of stances its the same.

Again you cannot compare mesmer with warrior. Even with warrior having more health and armour a zerker mesmer will have more inate sustain than a zerker warrior.

@silentnight warrior.2714:
Your build overdoses on condition removal. It just doesn’t make sense to do that. It lacks sufficient damage output and regarding PvP the Hambow warrior simply outperforms your mesmer build by default. I have explained it here

Hambow doesn’t have to make a choice except for the “low” mobility (compared to other warrior builds or highly mobile professions, over all it’s still average mobility). The Mesmer build you posted offers utility, but is still weak against Hambow on cap point. This is the state of the game atm. Warrior has an optimal build for contest game mode in the hambow build, that doesn’t have a singly weakness one could exploit. Your Mesmer build though lacks in damage, significantly. You can try to claim otherwise, but with 1.5k power and no way of consistent might stacking your damage will be still very very weak.

Defeating glass is anyway no issue for mesmer in a normal shatter build (except S/D thief). But shatter can still hurt bunkers. What your build does is getting less effective in that area, while gaining some defenses (and overcommiting on the condition cleanses). I believe also Hambow can hurt bunkers, though I am not completely sure about that, so someone more experienced might wanna answer that one.

And of course comparing of professions makes sense, because they will fight each other. One could say that is the ultimate way of comparing…

RyuDragnier.9476:

xbutcherx.3861:

RyuDragnier.9476:

xbutcherx.3861:

RyuDragnier.9476:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Miss a dodge against a warrior = you are dead

Warrior stands still without dodging = signet will heal it up without you having to do anything

That only works if your average damage is less than 390 dps.

Meaning every class build (other than warriors) that isn’t power or zerker.

If you do less than 390 dps, you should get something better than a FINE weapon.

You expect condi, support, and tank builds in full exotic to pull off more than 390dps every 3 seconds?

This is exactly the reason we see so many Warrior posts ^^…!

Well lol this is hilarious, If you expect condition and not doing 390 dps then this game is not for you, if you expect tank you can do damage but don’t expect to do a lot to another tank because is a never-end fight, and support? seriously? if you do support on Spvp or WvW and not do 390 dps this game is not for you.

I set on a condi-bomb on a Warrior, he uses a burst with Cleansing Ire (I’ve never seen a Warrior not take this) to remove it. It takes me at least 6 seconds to put more conditions on. In that time he has healed back the damage and has gotten his burst back. It’s a neverending cycle against the warrior, depending on the class he’s up against. Remember, not many classes can condi-bomb that fast or that often.

So many ways to explain this but when you said BOMB as an bomb spammer Engineer is just too funny.

@TyPin.9860:

Yes it overdoses on condition removal.

“That build have already very good sustain against conditions and you can heal 5000 + remove 4 conditions every 9/11 seconds plus the condition removal on shatters”

Its only with mantra heal and shatter conditions.
You can take the utilities you want because only the heal and shatters gives you enough condition clear (on par with CI from warrior and a warrior to heal for that amount need to stunlock the oponent for a few seconds).
As i said above you can switch runes, sigils, amulet to increase your damage output.

And that is a support build, not a build to contest points because warriors and mesmer have diferent roles. Mesmers are better for roaming than warriors. warriors are better point contestants.

And i agree that when both classes fight there should be made some comparisson (this is too strong, that is weak) and probably that was what made ANet to give warrior more sustain, because against other classes is sustain was too low and his weakness were too strong.

My point about comparing classes is because you cannot expect a glass mesmer holding points against bunkers even if they have good tools for that. And if you build a PU mesmer you can have great surviability and also good damage. What make them useless is the hability for contest points they dont have, not his damage / surviability ratio. But that was ANet decision to do so.

TyPin.9860:

In GW1 I remember some PvP mode, forgot its name, where you had to capture points. There you had a bar with arrows. The more friendly players on the cap point, the more the number of arrows switched in your wanted direction and caping/decaping became faster. Each enemy player get an arrow in his direction, neutralizing one of your arrows and thus slowing down or reversing your caping/decaping.

Also I agree that cap points should be bigger, so that AoE can not cover the whole point.

You’re probably thinking Alliance Battles. What you described is pretty much what I had in mind. The capture point size in GW1 was more understandable because most attacks didn’t cleave and AoE wasn’t as devastating (cast times were also longer and you could see what they were casting AND there was a larger focus on interrupts).

GW2’s combat system is much better, but the design of PvP is basically modified Alliance Battles. Also, before anyone claims that my suggestion would encourage “zerging”, that is easily countered by simply taking whatever points the zerg is not at. If they’re going around with a group of 4 with 1 guarding all you need to do is have a 2-3 split and send the 3 to wherever the defender is. This means you’ll always have a 2 point advantage or you force them to break up their zerg. You saw this happen a lot in GW1.

silentnight warrior.2714:

My point about comparing classes is because you cannot expect a glass mesmer holding points against bunkers even if they have good tools for that. And if you build a PU mesmer you can have great surviability and also good damage. What make them useless is the hability for contest points they dont have, not his damage / surviability ratio. But that was ANet decision to do so.

And my point is that warrior has an optimal no weakness build available. No other profession has that for any function. Also skills like Berserker stance, making you immune to conditions for 8-10 seconds, can mean certain death for a condition profession. This are imho complete oversights and create a huge, an immense gap between how hard/easy it is to play certain professions.

Most warrior advantages, even of hambow, can be overcome on very high skill level. But from average to good not top PvP player skill it creates an imbalance. GW2 is a game that wants to appeal to casuals. However, in this case it doesn’t unless casuals always choose warrior…

Hy TyPin, nice talk here

1 – Hambows dont have burst heals so if you burst them down they have dificulties to recover. (they have defy pain but every class have some sort of immunities – complete or not)
2 – The only reliable way they have to lose conditions is with longbow every 8 – 10 seconds, but if they never change to hammer they lose the abiity to CC and recover with Healing Signet and earthshaker is easely avoided.
3 – They offer low mobility.
4 – They cannot deal with enemy boons
5 – After the nerfs Hambow dont hit hard by it self, it needs might and inteligence sigils to be efective.
6 – You can steal/remove/corrupt their boons so you can reduce greatly their damage output.
7 – You can time your damage / control conditions for after they use the longbow f1 because they will use it anyway for might gain.
8 – You only fight the warrior, so you dont need to pay attention to any sort of AI so you can see his most damage skills (if its not one asura ofc but that aplies to every profession)
9 – They got easy to tell animations.

Every class have weakness, warrior weakness as you said its more related to players skill, than the build for it self, because a good player will beat a hambow, a bad one dont know what to do.

What is your opinion about the thief and elementalist meta build right now? What is their obvious weakness? (without being player skill and knowing the builds / rotations of that class in order to counter them, because that is what it needs to beat a hambow).

Edit: If a profession is easier / harder to play that doesn’t mean that there should be advantage on the harder profession over the easier ones. The less skills you have you should be able to be efective has those classes that have more skills and give more work to be efective.
The profession you choose should be the one you like to play.
I have a blast with my elementalist and its harder to be efective but that dont give me the right to beat any warrior out there just because i have more work. I play ele because i like the chalange, not because i have a guaranted win if i play the profession right.

Actually most of the people calling warriors OP are the sustained damage classes, these are classes generally not capable of doing large spike dmg but good at using conditions and a steady amount of mediocre damage (necromancer, ranger, engineer). These are the classes that readily can not get through the warrior defences without having godly skill and making no mistakes in the fights, these are the classes built to do damage over time and the warrior is currently almost immune to this kind of damage. Most of the passives and buffs warriors can get makes it so only heavy spike damage can bring them down. Ranger, necromancer, and engineer are not capable of exploiting this “weakness” since the heavy spike builds are not in their classes designs… So if you think warriors are balanced, try playing these classes.

Also this is why getting killed by some classes is considered an insult in PvP, for warriors and most of the upper tier players.

@silentnight warrior.2714:
Hehe, yeah, nice talk. But we must in two or three posts start to insult each other to coincide with the common behavior of this forum

I will address your points separately:

1. No burst heal
   Correct, the common hambow warrior has no burst heal. Well they have, but let’s be honest, the burst of healing signet, unless healing power is high, is very weak. The thing is, that often they don’t need it. I played for some time a Hammer/Axe+Shield warrior in PvP. And I could for instance with Hammer burst by myself some time to heal up. Blinds from Longbow also help the hambow warrior. On paper a hambow warrior is weak to burst damage, in practice I haven’t really seen that.
2. Condition Cleanse
   I still think warrior cleanses are one of the best. Especially for hambow warrior, who sits on point, it is very easy. Hammer burst for instance is very telegraphed, agreed, but the low cool down and quick adrenaline gain makes this skill very repeatable. It may be an issue in a 1v1 no AI fight. However, even then not every burst can be avoided and as soon as any form of AI enters the arena, and may it be the rock dog, your burst will have an easy target to find. Also when it’s more than 1v1 you will have more potential targets. While I would accept the lack of a healing burst, I don’t see any problem at all in the condition cleansing abilities.
3. Mobility
   With the trait for 25% movement speed with melee weapon they have already a speed boost. They are in comparison still rather slow (although Hammer burst can be used as a small forward leap), it is not really a weakness when you are fighting on the cap point.
4. They cannot deal with enemy boons
   Correct. But they have destruction of the empowered, when traited. Warriors also don’t have stealth, no teleports, no AI pets… This is what I mean with “wanting to have everything”-philosophy. If you are a lock down warrior and meet a foe with perma stability, then you have a problem. But hambow does not rely on that. It is not like: Stack boons, and you will counter the hambow. It is a good bonus against them depending on the boon, but it is not really a weakness of the warrior himself, especially with the damage increase from destruction of the empowered.
5. Post nerf Hammer
   The nerfes brought that weapon more in line. You cannot have an AoE CC weapon with huge damage output.
6. Boon rip
   Yes you can rip the warrior’s boons and survive yourself a bit longer. Unless it’s a S/D thief (I will get to those later) then boon stealing/corruption has often a quite long cool down. But there are exceptions of course, like Necro focus #5.
7. timing after Longbow F1
   You can time your stuff after F1, correctly, if you have the room/time for that. Also berserker stance negates conditions for 8 seconds. I don’t know if you play condition builds in PvP. But as a necro for example I get huge problems in this 8 seconds and can do not much about a warrior onslaught. Every time I played any warrior build with berserker stances, all condition builds just got destroyed. You can go completely berserk (hehe, you know what I mean?^^) and just hack away on the condition user without a 2nd thought.
8. + 9 No AI, telegraphing
   Well I addressed that partly already. The frequency in which you can apply the hard hitters and bursts is very high and makes it impossible to ultimately avoid them, even in the early fight. The huge tells aren’t a big help at some point. Also keep in mind that often we tend to discuss ideal/optimal situations. Combat in GW2 but is fast and gets messy very fast. This is something the warrior exploits. All warrior combos are very easy to apply and even in the heat of the battle, they will hit very reliably, despite the telegraphing.

Elementalist
I have not a clue how their build looks like. I just know that on my mesmer I can overwhelm them with shatter burst very easily and even with an experimental condition damage build on mesmer (with insane condition reaplication, if skill combos work out), I can deal with them quite easily. So I would guess burst and condi damage with high reaplication is their weakness…

Thief
Well… I have my issues with S/D thieves atm. But this is also due to a weakness of condition mesmer builds (I am experimenting the last few days with conditions only) to thieves in general. However, their constant evading makes it almost impossible to apply any significant amount of conditions with my condition spec. I sometimes manage to deal with them, but only if I can trap them into committing to down me, while I appear vulnerable (not healing or stun breaking, of null fielding and stuff, although it is not in cool down). This is highly risky and my blocks and shatters have to be on spot. Other than that it turns often into attrition with the thief hopping in and out with me mostly on the short end. I also have no idea how their build really looks like…

silentnight warrior.2714:

@ TyPin.9860

This build have all that you said with the exception of portal. You can switch Arcane Thievery with portal but you lose the ability to steal boons and i find very rewarding removing to my mesmer the 10+ stacks of might, fury and swiftness from a warrior and give him 6 stacks of bleed, immo and sometimes torment or burning.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJAWRl0npKtFpxNNcrNCrxc6kK6JSOQAl8irB-TJRHwAp3fQwlAAwTA4YZAA

Good damage, regeneration, vigor, good heals, very good condition removal, stun breaks with stability (this one can avoid a hammer combo because it gives stability after the stunbreak), boon steal and boon removal.

The thing is its not a roamer build and people want to roam with mesmer.

That’s a kitten build in PvP play.
You will be hitting like a wet noodle.
That build can duel, and that’s about it. Anything close to upper medium/high tier play and anyone running the is a hinderance to there team.