Guild Wars 2

Stop Nerfing, stop Buffing, start balancing
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Solstace.2514:

Most ppl want their favorite class buffed and every other class nerfed.

It’s a sad truth

yolo swaggins.2570:

Yet your definition doesn’t match the biggest example a majority of the internet uses for that term: WoW and it’s expansions.

Important point however: WoW does not have power creep through it’s expansions and content additions alone. Any pre-xpack patch changing the game mechanics and massively rebuilding the classes has messed with player power greatly.

Initially (2.0 and 3.0) they ended up making us so much stronger that any current content became laughable even before the additional nerfs applied.
By now, Blizzard realized how bad this is and are actively using these patches to counteract the power creep still in their content additions, by again and again limiting mana pools, growth and damage scaling. Only they’re stuck in a vicious cycle, because they can’t break the pattern of their raid tiers adding more power due to the nature of the game’s underlying reward structure.

But anyhow, the point is, even WoW shows that you don’t need extra content to have power creep. It helps, but just the balance patches alone can very much creep in more and more power. Buff 1 class, other class complains, devs react by buffing that class instead of nerfing the first which was buffed too much -> same status quo, but higher overall power level.
It’s not even difficult. I find it a bit confusing that this is difficult to accept, it’s trivial to do power creep as a developer with 0 new content. Maybe it’s because I am one that I don’t get what the problem would be. :S

yolo swaggins.2570:

Neither of which your example shows. Your definition, from what I can tell, is essentially power + more power = power creep and the concepts of old content and new content is thrown out the window.

Well yes. That’s the point.
Your definition of power creep is the specialized application of the general rule to expansion based power-tier character growth. It’s “adding more levels” power creep. Curiously enough this is not commonly called power creep in the industry.

Why?

Because the “power creep” is the creep of power you as a developer add unwillingly compared to the initial plan. It makes sense in the moment, it makes perfect sense to fix an issue, but the original plan had 4 stages of power increase, one per xpack, you made it 9 because of 4 larger balance scenarios + one PvE rework, each contributing greatly to player power overall. Your expansion design now faces serious issues and has to be accompanied by massive reductions to player power so your systems can keep going.
(Heh. See: WoW and it’s expansions. Perfect example, actually :P )

Though ofc, as I said above, it’s still power creep, even if not commonly called that way.
Yet, power creep has more than one way of happening, expansions are not a requirement. Or even content additions.

This is because for the purposes of judging power creep, adding a new, much more powerful ability is no different to the power increase than taking an existent underutilized one and changing it into this really powerful skill.
Both have the same effect. One adds something, the other buffs something. Hence the worries about power creep.

Black Teagan.9215:

Stop Nerfing, stop Buffing, start balancing
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Solstace.2514:

Most ppl want their favorite class buffed and every other class nerfed.

It’s a sad truth

Most ppl are dumb, unfortunately not enough, because they can play a game, and that is sad my friends….

Carighan.6758:

stuff

“Power Creep” is a video game term, among the many videogame terms out there, that have just begun to form a solid definition. The WoW xpac is just an example. But you cannot say something isn’t required, especially when there is a reason why its there.

And that reason is because the distinction between new and old content. In order to have “old content”, something must be added without the current content being touched. The content added in November is the “new” content which makes content added prior “old”. Modifying old content is essentially updating the old content into new content but since the old content is overridden, there is no old content.

Since the definition and description around the net is starting to refer to the WoW xpac example as the main unofficial clear-cut image of what “power creep” entails, it is in the best interest of the progression of content to refine the term so it can be avoided without the grey area getting in the way.

That is why I keep talking about requirements. You introduce a grey area by taking out requirements as the boundaries of what is and what isn’t blurs.

Let’s just agree that regardless of however much buffing and nerfing goes on, everything needs to be put on level with eachother while increasing build diversity at the same time… sounds good?

Anet is far too afraid of power creeps at the moment. It hinders balance quite severely in some areas that genuinely do need to be buffed by a considerable amount. Ive always felt anet is a little too safe and sensitive with their balance approach. Its not like its a major esport so i really think they should start being a bit more bold with both pve and pvp balance.

spoj.9672:

Anet is far too afraid of power creeps at the moment. It hinders balance quite severely in some areas that genuinely do need to be buffed by a considerable amount. Ive always felt anet is a little too safe and sensitive with their balance approach. Its not like its a major esport so i really think they should start being a bit more bold with both pve and pvp balance.

this

Yes I can agree with that. Especially given the fact that we are already limited by hotbar space, there isn’t really a requirement not to make abilities really powerful. You would ideally want to take all 40+ of your abilities, only you can’t.

I think they are intelligently cautious about power creeps. Not being cautious hinders balance across the board.

There is such a thing as being too cautious. They certainly do make the right decisions in some areas. But the areas which have been terrible for a long time will never improve if they dont do something a bit more drastic.

For example since release necro has had multiple minor buffs to both axe and siphons but they are still both terrible. The nature of these buffs wont ever solve the issues unless they are a bit braver.

coglin.1867:

I think they are intelligently cautious about power creeps. Not being cautious hinders balance across the board.

In this case however the limitation of one slot only makes it easy to avoid the power creep by using the strongest elite (probably rezz banner if we look across the entire game) as the upper limit on where to balance against.

It’s not even that all elites have to be that strong, just that you should never be in a situation where it’s the wrong for a specific elite. They shouldn’t be so weak they become just another situational skill to use.

STRanger.5120:

Black Teagan.9215:

Stop Nerfing, stop Buffing, start balancing
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Solstace.2514:

Most ppl want their favorite class buffed and every other class nerfed.

It’s a sad truth

Most ppl are dumb, unfortunately not enough, because they can play a game, and that is sad my friends….

I think there is a misperception as well. People get upset when their particular build cant beat every different type of player on a map. But that’s the game. One build, no matter how refined, is not going to hold up against every build from every class. There are going to be some builds that we all struggle against with our favorite. You’re going to be at a disadvantage – all other things equal – with some builds against other builds.

but arent you aware that certain buffs are nerfs to other classes, and vice versa? so if anet is aware of this, arent they intentionally already doing this already? plus and furthermore, if theyre not aware, isnt all working as intended?

Stand The Wall.6987:

but arent you aware that certain buffs are nerfs to other classes, and vice versa?

Not in pve. All nerfs is a nerf to our party.

Anet really needs to stop the nerfing as it is making the classes more boring to play. There are many traits and weapon sets that needs major buff to make them viable against the metas.

It isn’t just power creep that is fear. They focus 99% of the balance on conquest based spvp and that creates issues that would (almost) never occur in other game modes or aspects of the game and if/when they finally have to move on from that as the only mode they seem concerned with there will be an ocean of ‘balance’ problems that would come into being just from a change in focus.

Doon.2364:

Stand The Wall.6987:

but arent you aware that certain buffs are nerfs to other classes, and vice versa?

Not in pve. All nerfs is a nerf to our party.

Anet really needs to stop the nerfing as it is making the classes more boring to play. There are many traits and weapon sets that needs major buff to make them viable against the metas.

+1

Guard condi could be amazing if they just had the traits in the right trees

necros need love, mesmers need run speed, warriors need their adrenaline decay fixed….

there are a lot of buffs they could hand out that would have very little impact on over-all class balance

Ezeriel.9574:

Doon.2364:

Stand The Wall.6987:

but arent you aware that certain buffs are nerfs to other classes, and vice versa?

Not in pve. All nerfs is a nerf to our party.

Anet really needs to stop the nerfing as it is making the classes more boring to play. There are many traits and weapon sets that needs major buff to make them viable against the metas.

+1

Guard condi could be amazing if they just had the traits in the right trees

necros need love, mesmers need run speed, warriors need their adrenaline decay fixed….

there are a lot of buffs they could hand out that would have very little impact on over-all class balance

This ^