Guild Wars 2

DeceiverX.8361:

You also stated that the thief class is so predictable in your original post. If they’re so predictable, why is this burst such a bad thing and why is it not countered with skilled play?

Spike damage is fine if it’s well-cued and on a reasonable cool-down.

Thief spike damage is neither well-cued (nor organized due to lack of individual skill cool-downs) nor is it bound to a reasonable cool-down. Moreover, thieves have blind-spam, evasion frames, instant teleports, Lyssa/Basilisk Venom, (or just Basilisk Venom) along with other mechanics that all combine to amplify a spike. Guild Wars 2 wasn’t designed to handle that kind of game-play.

The reason why Thief is predictable, is because the Thief has such a narrow design scope: kill a target. It has no other functions. Yet despite being predictable, it’s mechanics remain unfair within the scope of balanced GW2 combat. That’s the issue.

I’m not sure what to think about the changes the OP proposed but I do agree with him that the Thief’s core design philosophy is all kinds of kittened up. I would love for Anet to completely gut the class and redesign without any form of in combat stealth (invisibility is more accurate) except maybe a disengagement skill.

Anet wants GW2 to be an Esport, What kind of competitive sport would allow one opponent to be visible for 3-4 seconds at a time? What would UFC be like if 1 guy wore a pare of shutter glass that only opened for a few seconds every few seconds? Even if he only had 1 arm, the guy without the glasses would have a serious advantage over the other.

style.6173:

@OP: You have to think about these things in terms of what would be the role of a thief after these changes.

So, what role would a thief play in tPvP after you take away the burst potential?

When it comes to raw damage, Thief’s role would be of a more consistent combatant like an Engineer or Ranger instead of someone that just engages instantly from range for huge damage and then either dies or breaks off to try it again.

With the addition of the staggered condition, the Thief would gain a supportive role in combat. By timing a staggering skill, the Thief could give allies or him/herself openings to deliver attacks in combat or even saved downed allies from stomps.

And it’s not like I’ve removed burst potential. [Malicious Strike] is r2 Eviscerate without a cool-down (even though it is bound by initiative consumption). [Heartseeker] damage at x<25% hp went untouched. [Headshot] → [Unload] → [Desperado] → [Crack Shot Frenzy] → [Ambush] → [Unload] is also a lot of potential damage. I’m looking at addressing pistol/dagger. Furthermore, I’ve read complaints about a 10-second recharge on stealth skills. I’m probably going to reduce to that to 5-second recharge. That gives the Thief the option to use a stealth skill pretty much every time that he/she goes into stealth, but it still punishes the Thief for missing that skill while in stealth. It adds a greater skill cap to stealth skills and provides the opponent with counterplay. If a player can dodge a [Backstab], the thief shouldn’t just be able to keep spamming [Backstab] until it hits; that completly undermines the purpose of dodging it. It makes dodging, positioning and timing completely moot.

Too many chain skills, really too many.
I also noticed you really want that arrows to explode, it was same on ranger if im correct.
[Cluster Bomb] (2-1) – haven’t seen anyone saying this skill is overpowered in a long time, and yet you want to nerf it by making it cost more initative and deal less damage.

You want to remake that class in a way that would completely kill it.
Thief has high mobility and damage at costs of having almost no boons avaible nor cc. And let it stay that way. Your changes would take all the flavour that class. Initative is was introduced to allow thieves to deal high damage combos and retreat till it regens. With proposed changes initative managment would become a thing of past as i would be limited by cooldowns more than initative.
You also nerfed thief damage by about 20%/25% across it all non condi build. This change alone would make thief completely unviable in pve except for stealth. I would prefer to have pvt bearbow in dungeon as it would bring more damage and utility.
This changes are so terrible that if they even come to life im just gonna change game, because thief is my favourite class because it is like no other class in game, tricky and evasive. If this changes happened, he would become dull mixture of all classes.

Swagg.9236:

The Thief is now more of a control/attrition/support class with various, substantial damage options scattered throughout each weapon set.

That is the thing i don’t understand a most. What is average player first thought about thief class in any mmo – highest burst, super squishy, focused on dealing damage.
I couldn’t care less about support options after choosing thief. Don’t make changes that deny logic.

Swagg.9236:

style.6173:

@OP: You have to think about these things in terms of what would be the role of a thief after these changes.

So, what role would a thief play in tPvP after you take away the burst potential?

When it comes to raw damage, Thief’s role would be of a more consistent combatant like an Engineer or Ranger instead of someone that just engages instantly from range for huge damage and then either dies or breaks off to try it again.

With the addition of the staggered condition, the Thief would gain a supportive role in combat. By timing a staggering skill, the Thief could give allies or him/herself openings to deliver attacks in combat or even saved downed allies from stomps.

And it’s not like I’ve removed burst potential. [Malicious Strike] is r2 Eviscerate without a cool-down (even though it is bound by initiative consumption). [Heartseeker] damage at x<25% hp went untouched. [Headshot] -> [Unload] -> [Desperado] -> [Crack Shot Frenzy] -> [Ambush] -> [Unload] is also a lot of potential damage. I’m looking at addressing pistol/dagger. Furthermore, I’ve read complaints about a 10-second recharge on stealth skills. I’m probably going to reduce to that to 5-second recharge. That gives the Thief the option to use a stealth skill pretty much every time that he/she goes into stealth, but it still punishes the Thief for missing that skill while in stealth. It adds a greater skill cap to stealth skills and provides the opponent with counterplay. If a player can dodge a [Backstab], the thief shouldn’t just be able to keep spamming [Backstab] until it hits; that completly undermines the purpose of dodging it. It makes dodging, positioning and timing completely moot.

So um… backstab has a level 1 eviscerate damage and malicious strike has a level 2 eviscerate. Why would you use dagger over S/P anymore? Does CnD still grant stealth? What’s the point in covering up CnD with a weak push on a 40 second CD?

NyuuNeeChan.2891:

Swagg.9236:

The Thief is now more of a control/attrition/support class with various, substantial damage options scattered throughout each weapon set.

That is the thing i don’t understand a most. What is average player first thought about thief class in any mmo – highest burst, super squishy, focused on dealing damage.
I couldn’t care less about support options after choosing thief. Don’t make changes that deny logic.

This isn’t about what people think that a Thief should be. This is about making a class that has a proper place within the balance guidelines of Guild Wars 2.

Making a class function based solely on its looks or any subjective, preconceived lore is the illogical thing.

Swagg.9236:

If a player can dodge a [Backstab], the thief shouldn’t just be able to keep spamming [Backstab] until it hits; that completly undermines the purpose of dodging it. It makes dodging, positioning and timing completely moot.

Easier solution: make failed stealth attacks pull you out of stealth.

wow swagg, nice work and u have a lot of intersting ideas.
i agree that thieves dmg that often comes out of stealth which offers 0 counterplay is way too high. but thief has this insane high dmg because of lack of defenses and hp. some of your ideas of course need tweaking and some nerfs are a little harsh, but u brough up some good points.
poeple whine about everything and yes thief is a super trolly class the way it is designed, but if people want thief nerfs, than thief needs buffs aswell. u cannot remove everything the thief is and not givem something in return.
some more options for aoe would be nice to see on a thief though. decrease the overall dmg is ok, give thieves more defensive and supportive group skills too and i like the additional knockdowns as it could help in wvw.

honestly i think ill have to write something like this up for my mes as i want my class to be reworked aswell.
less ai spam,less 1v1 stuff, more aoe more light armor class skills.

Maugetarr.6823:

So um… backstab has a level 1 eviscerate damage and malicious strike has a level 2 eviscerate. Why would you use dagger over S/P anymore?

I suppose that is a point to make. However, using a [Malicious Strike] against a foe that isn’t already staggered would cost 7 initiative and it also doesn’t mean that the foe might not dodge or mitigate the [Malicious Strike].

[Backstab] costs no initiative and is infinitely less telegraphed than [Malicious Strike].

Maugetarr.6823:

Does CnD still grant stealth? What’s the point in covering up CnD with a weak push on a 40 second CD?

To prevent perma-stealth and to also allow the Thief to provide a set-up for either his/her own attacks or possibly also a teammate’s attack. It’s also simply just movement manipulation if used against a non-staggered foe.

Moreover, [Push] can be tied to a weapon-set that includes something like [Backstab] because it deals no damage giving d/d a very powerful attack option in mid-fight or even as an opener.

Sarrs.4831:

Swagg.9236:

If a player can dodge a [Backstab], the thief shouldn’t just be able to keep spamming [Backstab] until it hits; that completly undermines the purpose of dodging it. It makes dodging, positioning and timing completely moot.

Easier solution: make failed stealth attacks pull you out of stealth.

That’s also a solution. I guess it could work to somehow code “missing” an attack as a trigger to apply revealed. That would also really change how stealth worked across the board. I actually kind of like that possibility.

I finished reading over the changes. Rather than addressing each and every one of them individually, I’ll post what I think is a good and largely unbiased summary of your changes.

Purpose
To reduce thief’s overall damage by a) reducing weapon coefficients and b) adding CDs to many of the thief’s skills. Furthermore, to reduce the ability to constantly apply blind to opponents and add to the thief’s utility by a) giving them a unique condition and b) splitting a large number of their skills into chains.

The philosophy behind all of these ideas is just flat-out wrong. First of all, as I and others have pointed out, many of your statements are inherently self-contradictory. For instance,

Swagg.9236:

The Thief is a profession so innately crippled; with such a one-dimensional and predictable play-style…

…With such changes as a whole, we can bring the Thief back down to a level which allows opponents counter-play opportunities…

But even if we put aside those contradictions for a second and look at your main ideas, they are still terrible. For instance, as I pointed out before (and you never addressed), thieves actually have some overall fairly low damage coefficients, which, paired with their lack of AoE pulsing (or, for that matter, AoE outside of Shortbow) and conditions, means that thieves actually have fairly average or even low damage. As a result, we have to rely on things like Zerker amulet in order to deal damage. Now, I and many other thieves have accepted this fact and still play thieves in spite of it. However, to claim that we do more damage than other classes is simply absurd, and it is quite objectively disprovable. As for the weapon CDs and the reduction of teleports, you’re basically turning thief into an UP warrior. The only really unique mechanic that we have is initiative, and once that’s removed (or effectively removed), then the difference between us and warriors is completely nonexistent outside of the fact that warriors have… Well, pretty much better everything over us, even if we only look at base stats and weapon coefficients. Understand one thing: we don’t want to become some kind of generic class, which you seem to think that we should become:

Swagg.9236:

When it comes to raw damage, Thief’s role would be of a more consistent combatant like an Engineer or Ranger instead of someone that just engages instantly from range for huge damage and then either dies or breaks off to try it again.[which isn’t really true anyways, but whatever you say]

As for the “blind spamming”, seriously, just stop. Nobody even runs 10 in SA anyways (and for a good reason), but that dumb trait is pretty easy to counter anyways, whether it’s by condi cleansing or by swinging your sword around/using AoE. It’s not like thieves are using this trait to blind you every second or something anyways. Black Powder only works on downed opponents, and Shadow Shot is one of the most telegraphed attacks in the game.

As for adding utility, we’re fine as we are right now. I really don’t see the logic behind these changes; we already have lots of utility from mobility and stealth. Nothing more to it. I’m not sure how you play thief, but you obviously don’t play correctly.

And the chains? There’s no logic in this. It just makes combat infinitely more confusing and cluttered, not to mention, it horrendously weakens the flow of skills and thus the thief’s offensive output.

You’re 100% claims and 0% evidence; heck, you don’t even have personal credibility to support what you’re saying. You have nothing to back you up. But hey, if it makes you feel any better to pretend to be some kind of pro, go ahead, be my guest.

Swagg.9236:

That’s also a solution. I guess it could work to somehow code “missing” an attack as a trigger to apply revealed. That would also really change how stealth worked across the board. I actually kind of like that possibility.

Surprised you hadn’t thought of it already. It’s a change that can realistically be put into the current game, at least, in terms of scope and changing the fundamental aspects of how a thief operates. How it’d go on the coding side, I can’t say for sure; it might just be moving the stealth removal code earlier into an if-then chain, or it could be a major overhaul.

Makes sense to me because why the hell can you fire off 5 shots out of your pistol while still being undetectable if none of them hit? These are blackpowder weapons which, with one exception, don’t have silencers. They should be extremely loud and smoky; not exactly conducive to stealth.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

So um… backstab has a level 1 eviscerate damage and malicious strike has a level 2 eviscerate. Why would you use dagger over S/P anymore?

I suppose that is a point to make. However, using a [Malicious Strike] against a foe that isn’t already staggered would cost 7 initiative and it also doesn’t mean that the foe might not dodge or mitigate the [Malicious Strike].

[Backstab] costs no initiative and is infinitely less telegraphed than [Malicious Strike].

Maugetarr.6823:

Does CnD still grant stealth? What’s the point in covering up CnD with a weak push on a 40 second CD?

To prevent perma-stealth and to also allow the Thief to provide a set-up for either his/her own attacks or possibly also a teammate’s attack. It’s also simply just movement manipulation if used against a non-staggered foe.

Moreover, [Push] can be tied to a weapon-set that includes something like [Backstab] because it deals no damage giving d/d a very powerful attack option in mid-fight or even as an opener.

Is chaining CnD really considered perma-stealth now?

Furthermore 40 seconds CD for a powerful attack? I think you need to rethink what you consider powerful in this game for that length CD:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Banish
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_of_Absorption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bane_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Command_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staggering_Blow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backbreaker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rifle_Butt
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_Bash
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Inversion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_Battering_Ram
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thump
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Updraft
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthquake
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diversion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Storm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counter_Blade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Into_the_Void
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Domination
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Wall
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_

Before you continue with these threads, I would suggest you look at how the balance currently is and take inventory of some more skills and coefficients, and how even though they look good on paper end up being lackluster to bad in practice. The changes you’ve proposed for the thief severely cut into the damage and evasion of the thief offering little in return in ways of new mechanics, sustain, or even control.

I legitimately do not understand any logic here. Your proposal keeps Initiative as a thing, but most weapon skills now have cooldowns? What?! What’s the point of Initiative, then? You will ALWAYS have 6+ because you will have nothing to spend it on.

I just…I don’t…what?

All of this stuff is a HUGE sacrifice for an extra initial 5k HP that will melt away anyway because we still don’t have good access to defensive boons, so who cares?

Maugetarr.6823:

Is chaining CnD really considered perma-stealth now?

It’s always been perma stealth chaining. Moreover, it inflicted high amounts of damage. By toning the damage down and putting a definitive cap to the amount of stealth that it can apply within a certain time frame, the skill turns into an attack-primer.

Maugetarr.6823:

Furthermore 40 seconds CD for a powerful attack? I think you need to rethink what you consider powerful in this game for that length CD:

People really underestimate the power of CC in this game. It comes from a combination of stability being overtuned and people being spoiled by high damage skills.

Moreover, your list is entirely out of context. You can’t just throw out CC-related skills as examples because they all exist within the context of a weapon set or build.

Furthermore, CC is typically powerful enough in and of itself. CC skills really don’t require much damage if any at all. Keen use of most CC is enough to turn an encounter around. That list does have a lot of salient examples of CC that’s a bit overtuned because its paired with excessive damage and I’d like to address those individually in my other threads or in future threads.

Finally, I’m still looking over my suggestions and people’s reactions. I’m still constantly making additions and modifications to everything on an almost daily basis.
[/quote]

Auesis.7301:

I legitimately do not understand any logic here. Your proposal keeps Initiative as a thing, but most weapon skills now have cooldowns? What?! What’s the point of Initiative, then? You will ALWAYS have 6+ because you will have nothing to spend it on.

Combo skills remain as initiative hogs. I’m actually looking to adjust initiative costs a little bit more across the board to preserve the mechanic as a relevant resource pool. Even so, the point of the cool-downs is to add breaks between attacks for opponents as well as transform the Thief into less of a time-starved, spam-centric class that shows up and kills something/dies and shift its play-style into that of a consistent combat contributor like an Engineer or Ranger.

Auesis.7301:

All of this stuff is a HUGE sacrifice for an extra initial 5k HP that will melt away anyway because we still don’t have good access to defensive boons, so who cares?

The addition of the ranged CC throughout weapon skills will give the Thief a lot of combat options to employ while not necessarily in the thick of combat. It adds timing, cool-down management and positioning as a skill-cap to the class. [Push] is a dual-purpose CC skill that can serve to disrupt an enemy’s positioning or prime further attacks. I’ll look to maybe add some conditional defensive boons throughout some of the lacking weapon sets either as a means to sustain in-weapon-set combat or maybe prime the player for swap into a more full-frontal attack style. That actually might be a good way to go about adjusting pistol/dagger since it’s already a pretty attrition-based/defensive set-up.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Is chaining CnD really considered perma-stealth now?

It’s always been perma stealth chaining. Moreover, it inflicted high amounts of damage. By toning the damage down and putting a definitive cap to the amount of stealth that it can apply within a certain time frame, the skill turns into an attack-primer.

Maugetarr.6823:

Furthermore 40 seconds CD for a powerful attack? I think you need to rethink what you consider powerful in this game for that length CD:

People really underestimate the power of CC in this game. It comes from a combination of stability being overtuned and people being spoiled by high damage skills.

Moreover, your list is entirely out of context. You can’t just throw out CC-related skills as examples because they all exist within the context of a weapon set or build.

Furthermore, CC is typically powerful enough in and of itself. CC skills really don’t require much damage if any at all. Keen use of most CC is enough to turn an encounter around. That list does have a lot of salient examples of CC that’s a bit overtuned because its paired with excessive damage and I’d like to address those individually in my other threads or in future threads.

Finally, I’m still looking over my suggestions and people’s reactions. I’m still constantly making additions and modifications to everything on an almost daily basis.

[/quote]

CnD chaining has never been perma stealth in the traditional sense. Against an average to above average opponent you shouldn’t be able to land this more than once, and against a skilled opponent, landing the first CnD is difficult in the first place, much less chaining it. Furthermore, CnD is a 1.0 multiplier which is hardly high damage if done every 4 seconds when attempting to chain CnD. My examples are not out of context anymore than your changes were. None of them required any traits, and many of them were common (meta) weapon choices. I realize that CC (and immobilize which I didn’t list) is powerful, but you are nerfing the thief far under par with your suggestions even compared to some ranger skill which is largely considered UP (which is why I listed it first). If you really want to address (nerf) those skills individualy, I have to say your ideas are moving the game toward a slow moving mediocrity. As much as fighting some build such as hambow warriors and dhuumfire necros can be aggravating, the fast paced combat combined with active defenses is fun for a lot of players. Right now this game walks a nice line between FPS (feeling) and MMO which is really what makes it fun to play. Slowing it down overall will just make the people who were originally attracted to the playstyle just leave.

Swagg.9236:

THIEF BASE HP

• Thief base hp at level 80 increased from 10,805 to 15,082.
• The Thief’s hp now scales identically to Engineer, Ranger and Mesmer hp levels.
  
  NEW CONDITION UNIQUE TO THE THIEF – STAGGERED
• Staggered foes cannot gain protection or stability. Staggering a foe removes up to 2 stacks of Defiant.
• Staggered does not stack in duration nor in intensity. If a staggered foe were to be staggered again, the second instance of staggered would simply overwrite the first instance.

Increasing the base HP is not a huge buff.
Staggered looks like a really underwhelming, situational & RNG condition.

Swagg.9236:

Stealth Attack skills
[Surprise Shot] (1)

• Recharge increased from 0 to 5 seconds.
• Damage reduced from 202 (0.6) to 159 (0.5).

[Tactical Strike] (1)

• Recharge increased from 0 to 5 seconds.

[Backstab] (1)

• Recharge increased from 0 to 5 seconds.
• Front damage reduced from 403 (1.2) to 302 (0.9).
• Back damage reduced from 806 (2.4) to 554 (2.0).
• Now also inflicts 10 stacks of vulnerability for 10 seconds when striking a foe from behind.

[Sneak Attack] (1)

• Recharge increased from 0 to 5 seconds.

Putting a recharge on thief attack skills is just ridiculous, and it promotes more stealthy and “in and out” play style. And if you use an utility skill while in stealth, you will use your stealth attack(bug).
Backstab might hit hard against glassy foes, but the damage is perfectly fine against the heavy classes, classes with high protection up time or classes that can spam weakness. In addition, I believe if you decide to run glass you know that there are thieves and that you should be able to prevent backstabs from happening, by timing your dodge, gaining distance or spam the floor with AoE’s.

Swagg.9236:

Sword main-hand skills
[Infiltrator’s Strike] (2-1)

• Initiative Cost: 3
• Cast-time: 1¼ second
• Dash at your foe to deliver an immobilizing strike. You gain Super Speed if you are in combat when you use this skill.
• Damage: 204 (0.55)
• Immobilize: 1 second
• Super speed: 1 second
• Range: 600
  • Uses the Warrior banner [Sprint] attack animation.
  • If you strike a foe with this skill, it chains into another skill: [Infiltrator’s Return]

[Infiltrator’s Return] (2-2)

• Initiative Cost: 1
• Cast-time: 0
• Evade backwards and lose up to 1 condition.
• Evasion: ¾ second
• Evasion distance: 400
  • Condition removal occurs before the backwards evasion roll.
  • This chain skill remains active for up to 20 seconds.

Skills that dash at foes can be easily dodged, or you can even move away so it does not hit. This skill has had several nerfs, and I think it does not need yet another. The teleport is an important part of the thieves deception abilities. However it will probably make a good movement skill now.
About all your proposed changes (most of them are nerfs).
I think all of the damage reduction and recharges on skills are not the way to go for thief. But maybe adding some chain skills (it can function as a small recharge on some skills) on currently apparent OP skills might bring the thief in a better place. For example Disabling shot (against the evade spam). For utility skills and traits I think that all of the signet changes are stupid, the venom changes you proposed look better than it is now, however the increased recharge on basilisk venom makes it even more underwhelming. Note that this skill can be seen on the thief and can then easily be blocked or dodged.

MatthijsB.4731:

Skills that dash at foes can be easily dodged, or you can even move away so it does not hit.

Yes, that’s what this game needs. Those skills are balanced and allow for counter-play. Instant-cast teleports that inflict immobilize and high damage and also forego recharges belong in games with dedicated healers.

MatthijsB.4731:

The teleport is an important part of the thieves deception abilities.

Instantly teleporting directly to a target is not “deception”; it’s an imbalanced gap-closer.

MatthijsB.4731:

For utility skills and traits I think that all of the signet changes are stupid,

OK.

MatthijsB.4731:

the increased recharge on basilisk venom makes it even more underwhelming. Note that this skill can be seen on the thief and can then easily be blocked or dodged.

[Basilisk Venom] is a passive, attack-triggered bonus that stuns foes for 1 1/2 seconds on a class replete with instant or near-instant attacks (some of which even attack near-instantly from range). Moreover, it procs Lyssa runes (which also need a nerf) often turning [Basilisk Venom] into a single-button win for Thieves that can even be used more than once within a single encounter if the fight lasts long enough.

This sort of thing needs a regulating nerf: once per encounter; with a cast-time that could punish wanton use mid-encounter should it come back off cool-down during a fight.

MatthijsB.4731:

Increasing the base HP is not a huge buff.

Moving the Thief to medium-tier base hp would allow the Thief to contribute more consistently to a fight. The overall goal of this initiative is to shift the thief away from instant-spike and towards a controlled, better telegraphed DPS dealer with control and defensive options.

MatthijsB.4731:

Staggered looks like a really underwhelming, situational & RNG condition.

You act like situational things are bad. Situational-use skills promote keen battlefield awareness, add a skill-cap to their proper use (because just spamming them would be a bad idea given their situational nature) and introduce new, unique dynamics into an encounter.

RNG implies that the Thief would have no control over when he/she inflicted the staggered condition. That is entirely not the case. You’re using the word RNG incorrently here.

MatthijsB.4731:

Putting a recharge on thief attack skills is just ridiculous,

I’ve already detailed why stealth skills in particular could use a cool-down. An alternative solution to the problem posed by stealth skills would be to simply make “missing” an attack while in stealth apply revealed the caster—a solution that I happen to think is far more intuitive and natural than just adding a cool-down to stealth skills.

MatthijsB.4731:

Backstab might hit hard against glassy foes, but the damage is perfectly fine against the heavy classes, classes with high protection up time or classes that can spam weakness.

The vulnerability stacking addition to [Backstab] will help alleviate the disparity between the skill’s effectiveness on high-defense and low-defense classes.

MatthijsB.4731:

In addition, I believe if you decide to run glass you know that there are thieves and that you should be able to prevent backstabs from happening, by timing your dodge, gaining distance or spam the floor with AoE’s.

A Thief’s access to multiple direct-to-target teleport skills (of which two are weapon-skills and don’t even have cool-downs) typically undermine a player’s positioning when fighting a Thief. Fighting a Thief typically means that keen positioning is moot. That has to change.

As for dodges, I’ve already said that the current stealth skills are broken in that a Thief can spam them repeatedly until they hit. This fact completely invalidates your argument of “timing your dodge” because you can’t keep dodging forever, while the Thief is obliged to keep spamming from stealth until [Backstab] or any other stealth skill connects. That also has to change.

Updates to pistol main-hand, shortbow, [Death Blossom] and stealth skills.

Xaylin.1860:

Swagg.9236:

Trap skills
[Ambush]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 0
• Recharge: 40 seconds
• Teleport to target location and summon an attacking thief at your former location.
• Teleport range: 600
• Thief duration: 20 seconds
• Breaks stun
• This skill’s summon effect now only summons the melee-specialized female thief.

I’m sure the highlighted change is purely based on practical thoughts. But it made me laugh pretty hard. Thank you very much.

Because the female melee thief uses [Scorpion Wire], it’s meant to supplement the already escape/repositioning-oriented functionality of the new [Ambush]. You shadowstep to target location while female thief NPC uses [Scorpion Wire] to further compromise your opponent’s attempt to close in on you. It could also be used offensively as a means to predict where an opponent will be in the near future because of the pull effect (provided that the target doesn’t have stability or is reflecting projectiles).

Glad I could make you laugh, though, I suppose.

The best post with suggestions to thief changes to date, the OP hits spot on, I hope the developers take a look at this.

A VERY good overall approach. Especially remakable for not being a disguised S/x spvp buff wish list.

I really like the idea of thieves becoming the “anti-boon” class by controlling stability!

Swagg.9236:

[Basilisk Venom] is a passive, attack-triggered bonus that stuns foes for 1 1/2 seconds on a class replete with instant or near-instant attacks (some of which even attack near-instantly from range). Moreover, it procs Lyssa runes (which also need a nerf) often turning [Basilisk Venom] into a single-button win for Thieves that can even be used more than once within a single encounter if the fight lasts long enough.

This sort of thing needs a regulating nerf: once per encounter; with a cast-time that could punish wanton use mid-encounter should it come back off cool-down during a fight.

It also has very distinct tells; the cast is a fair amount of time, and you can tell when a thief has basilisk poison if you can see him as it has the buff shown there. Poison attacks which fail consume the poison charge; dodge immediately before they do any attacks with their basilisk poison and they’ll waste it. The only way to get an ‘assured’ Basilisk Poison hit is to get into stealth, which obviously has its own limitations.

Lyssa runes do throw Basilisk Poison out of whack. Really, they’re the main problem here.

Swagg.9236:

FUNCTIONALITY CHANGE TO STEALTH FOR ALL CLASSES

• If a player attacks while in stealth, but “misses” an attack due to being out of range, blinded, blocked, evaded, obstructed, or if they struck an invulnerable target, that player gains the revealed debuff for 4 seconds.

THIEF BASE HP

• Thief base hp at level 80 increased from 10,805 to 15,082.
• The Thief’s hp now scales identically to Engineer, Ranger and Mesmer hp levels.

NEW CONDITION UNIQUE TO THE THIEF – STAGGERED

• Staggered foes cannot gain protection or stability. Staggering a foe removes up to 2 stacks of Defiant.
• Staggered does not stack in duration nor in intensity. If a staggered foe were to be staggered again, the second instance of staggered would simply overwrite the first instance.

Coming back to this thread, I’d just like to touch on your proposal to up Thief base HP and the new condition, Staggered.

Historically, survivability has never been tied to the size of one’s HP pool in GW2. Berzerker’s stats and Condition damage scaling have ensured that Toughness past a certain breakpoint is wasted stats, and that Vitality similarly has diminishing returns with respect to taking Burst damage because you can’t heal it back up afterward without sacrificing even more stats.

As a case study, Warrior has the highest HP pool and Armour in the game, yet prior to the Healing Signet, Cleansing Ire changes, Warrior was considered too fragile because it had very few Evade frames, little Boon based survivability (Protection at 33% damage reduction far outcompetes any amount of Toughness in a build), and could generally be snared and kited to death. Before that there was the Quickness burst meta because no-one knew what they were doing and happily ate 100blades to the face because that was “risk vs reward”. Lo and behold, you buff Warrior’s cleansing capability through the roof and augment Warrior’s sizable Effective HP (EHP) with Healing Signet and CC uptime inherent to the weapon sets, and you get a monster.

Similarly, Elementalist had the lowest HP pool and Armour in the game, yet the “roaming bunker DPS” was a thing before the sweeping nerfs. Extremely low EHP was offset by overwhelming healing and cleansing, while Protection uptime allowed Elementalist to survive damage that would otherwise be impossible with such an EHP level. Might stacks from Combo Fields and Sigil of Battle allowed highly defensive builds to deal damage.

These two examples alone should demonstrate that simply increasing Base HP does absolutely nothing except making a marginal difference in TTK – for the Thief, not the defending class.

Moving on to Staggered

• I see your intentions of making Staggered deny Protection and Stability as a way for Thieves to counter Bunker classes, yet your changes do not simply _make Thief deal “armour piercing” damage – i.e. through Protection and Toughness – or be able to CC enemy professions any better when Stability is denied.

Would it not be better instead to rework your Staggering skills to instead remove Protection and/or Stability instead of introducing yet another condition to the game?

• “Junk” covering conditions are already rife, and I see in your suggestions the potential for a Stagger-inflicting, condi-spam Thief – which isn’t a bad thing, but it does reinforce the “condispam” meta.
• Life Steal is an “Armour Piercing” damage type that ignores Protection and/or Toughness – yet Skelk Venom is essentially ignored. Why not incorporate Life Steal into some Thief attacks to make Thief stronger against Bunker type classes whilst simultaneously giving Thief the sustain to stay in a longer fight? Let’s ignore for a second the thematic breaks of giving Thief Lifesteal over Necromancers. Leeching Venoms seems to be a good place to put it here, yet I see that you’ve made the Coefficients extremely low to emphasise the DPS/CC side of the Venoms over their potential to “bunker bust”
• As a last point, have you considered giving Thieves Boon rip (not Boon steal) to counter Bunkers? Mesmers were the “bunker busters” of yore before the meta moved on thanks to extensive Boon removal making Boon based Bunkers like Guardian very vulnerable. Boon ripping skills that strip away a Bunker’s defenses over time along with Poison uptime should make Thief more effective against Bunkers, whilst the short encounter times in duels between other Glass Cannons makes such things significantly less useful.

OP-Swagg,

I’ve been following your work for some time and i want to say, that i’m impressed by your wonderful creativity ideas about class balance. Many times i almost believe you are a undercover Arena.net dev (wish so) who is in the interest of Balancing the classes and the game.

Now it’s the thief class; you are absolutely on point with everything you stated about this Outrageous OP class design, mechanic and its one-direction philosophy.

For the past 1 year+6 months, yet no consideration, accommodation in listening to, in resolving their community concerns.

It it so obvious they will continue to ignore, and take no action toward their community and its player base concerns.

As one told me, “to know the Truth, is to know it’s history”. 1 Year+6months is enough history.

Encouragement+ Blessing

Swagg i encourage you to not give up your wonderful ideas and creativity concerning Class Balance and Bad Class Designs/ OP Class/s.

I’m sure a MMO company who believe in the same ideas, philosophy will be ready to listen and accept you with open arms.

Also,

Good work to the many wonderful minded individuals/players, who share similar/same ideas, philosophy of Balance, for the thief class.

Also,

Good work to those who acknowledge thief class brokenness and unbalance.

" Without balance, is no longer worth… for effort "

There will come a time where all efforts, and hard works… will be Rewarded and Appreciated.

“Life, Time reward and bless those who seek change for the better”

Reality

Too many wonderful wasted ideas, philosophy from wonderful minded players have long been gone, ignored in the threads, posts for far too long; it is time to put them where they belong and well deserve.

Hey,

i’ve read through your suggestions and have to say, that their a cool and consistent approach to the thief. I’m a bit concerned about the cool downs too. If you introduce (long) cool downs, the chain skill pops up and stays, whether theres enough ini or not, which makes ini as a resource obsolete. I do not know if this is maybe the right step, as ini is an outstanding mechanic in gw2, but realy defined the thief as a class. Maybe it could be worked around, by reducing the ini at the start of a fight and let it only regenerate during one. This way a thief can not unload his skill bar from nothing. Building up like life force for death shroud.
Also your really harsh with dmg nerfs. Backstab combos do not hit that hard anymore. I think its really more about the counter play, that stealth and teleports denie. Your on the right track with teleports imho. After these adjustments, i could see that the thief would need some dmg buffs instead, as its dmg isn’t outstanding anymore.
Also i have to say that your positive and serious way to reply is enjoyable to read.

@Arganthium
To sum up your comment: Thief instajabbed nearly everything in the past, because he could unload his full skill bar in seconds (so dmg was nerfed hard). Only thiefs are able to do so and because thiefs dont want to be warriors, this is ok and have to stay.

I mean what should rangers say? Are they Warriors with pets? Or NGs Warriors with kits? Or are Warriors Rangers without pets? Eles Warriors with 4 weapon sets?

Its the combination of high dmg attacks, the ini system and stealth. Dealing high burst without cool down, or visual presence has the potential do be imbalanced and it has to addressed. To say the thief is fine supportwise … well he can run fast and this way support his allies to achieve outnumbered situations, but thats not exactly the support swag is talking about. Its more about the support a specialized thief can contribute in a 5n5 fight, which is almost nonexistent atm (except for shadow refuge). Also your citing out of context: The thiefs role in a fight is predictable/one dimensional, as he can only deliver dmg. But the dmg he delivers is unpredictable because of stealth.

The basic idea is right: add things a thief misses like in fight support, some aoe dmg, survivability (maybe 5k bonus HP is not enough) and take away the counterless crap, like high dmg stealth attacks.

Arganthium.5638:

Looks like you haven’t gotten any smarter.

Swagg.9236:

Guild Wars 2 was a game with combat designed around the player anticipating an opponent’s moves and appearance by reading the opponent’s actions and gear,

No it wasn’t, otherwise there would be visible casting bars.

then either preparing a plan of attack or actively counter-playing properly after the opponent had engaged.

Then there’s the Thief.

Is that supposed to imply that thieves can’t be actively played against? That certainly seems to be what you’re saying, though in the context of your next statement

The Thief is a profession so innately crippled; with such a one-dimensional and predictable play-style that it requires evasion tanking, blind spamming, direct-to-target teleports and super-high damage on every attack in order to compete with any other class in the game in its only function: kill the selected target. In order to be remotely functional in GW2 combat, the Thief has to break every single rule in the “How to balance combat in GW2” book. This isn’t to say that other classes don’t break these rules in their own ways, but the Thief is founded on breaking those rules, making the entire class a mess that goes against the fundamental conventions that govern balanced GW2 combat.

You seem to be contradicting yourself (not to mention you have no evidence to back up your claims about how the game was designed).

Furthermore, Thief attacks, thanks to their universally high base damage

Empirically incorrect. First of all, thieves have no additional base damage stats; as a matter of fact, all classes have the same base offensive stats. As a result, what we really have to look at are damage coefficients. Let’s use one of the highest weapon coefficients that thief has- 1.5 on LS (we could compare with BS, but there are a ton of attacks that do lots of damage just barely wouldn’t make the list). So let’s see what skills have Standardized Weapon Coefficients greater than 1.35 (90% of LS’ damage)(including multi-hit attacks):

Elementalist

• Fire Grab
• Churning Earth
• Dragon Tooth
• Phoenix (Explosion)
• Drake’s Breath
• Burning Speed
• Meteor Shower
• Ice Spike
• Lightning Surge
• Eruption

Engineer

• Jump Shot
• Blunderbuss
• BoB
• Grenade Barrage
• Flame Jet
• Detonate Flame Blast

Guardian

• Whirling Wrath
• Faithful Strike
• Mighty Blow
• Smite (at least 5 strikes)
• Zealot’s Defense
• Sword Wave
• SoWrath (explosion)

Mesmer

• Phantasmal Berkserker
• Illusionary Warlock
• Confusing Images
• Blurred Frenzy
• Phantasmal Duelist
• Illusionary Riposte
• Phantasmal Swordsman
• Phantasmal Warden
• Mind Wrack (three clones)

Necromancer

• Ghastly Claws
• Life Siphon
• Life Transfer

Ranger

• Maul
• Counterattack
• Rapid Fire
• Barrage
• Hunter’s Call

Thief

• Backstab (back side)
• Heartseeker (< 50%)
• Unload
• Pistol Whip
• Cluster Bomb

Warrior

• Hundred Blades
• Rush
• Arcing Slice
• Fierce Blow
• Backbreaker
• Earthshaker
• Arcing Arrow
• Volley
• Kill Shot
• Triple Chop
• Eviscerate (any)
• Pulverize
• Counterblow
• Skull Crack
• Final Thrust (either)
• Whirling Axe

And that’s not including AoE pulses or conditions, neither of which thieves have in abundance. Of course, not all of these skills are very good, or hit often enough to always do more damage than LS, but many, many of them deal more damage than LS does anyways (100b only needs to hit a few times to do more damage, for instance), and to act like all of these skills are worse than thief’s skills is, quite frankly, absurd and ignorant. Thieves quite definitively do not have more damage “universally” than other classes do.

All I have to say to this, you made no point comparing thief to other professions with HIGHLY TELEGRAPHED, CASTED and/or CHANNELED, COOL DOWNED abilities to a thief whom is under telegraphed few cast times, few channels and no cool downs.

As you said you are still looking for other ppls reactions and opinions: i think none of your suggestions is more than a joke. And my reaction is like “that dude better let anet Do their Job”

Stogzlol.4795:

Arganthium.5638:

Looks like you haven’t gotten any smarter.

Swagg.9236:

Guild Wars 2 was a game with combat designed around the player anticipating an opponent’s moves and appearance by reading the opponent’s actions and gear,

No it wasn’t, otherwise there would be visible casting bars.

then either preparing a plan of attack or actively counter-playing properly after the opponent had engaged.

Then there’s the Thief.

Is that supposed to imply that thieves can’t be actively played against? That certainly seems to be what you’re saying, though in the context of your next statement

The Thief is a profession so innately crippled; with such a one-dimensional and predictable play-style that it requires evasion tanking, blind spamming, direct-to-target teleports and super-high damage on every attack in order to compete with any other class in the game in its only function: kill the selected target. In order to be remotely functional in GW2 combat, the Thief has to break every single rule in the “How to balance combat in GW2” book. This isn’t to say that other classes don’t break these rules in their own ways, but the Thief is founded on breaking those rules, making the entire class a mess that goes against the fundamental conventions that govern balanced GW2 combat.

You seem to be contradicting yourself (not to mention you have no evidence to back up your claims about how the game was designed).

Furthermore, Thief attacks, thanks to their universally high base damage

Empirically incorrect. First of all, thieves have no additional base damage stats; as a matter of fact, all classes have the same base offensive stats. As a result, what we really have to look at are damage coefficients. Let’s use one of the highest weapon coefficients that thief has- 1.5 on LS (we could compare with BS, but there are a ton of attacks that do lots of damage just barely wouldn’t make the list). So let’s see what skills have Standardized Weapon Coefficients greater than 1.35 (90% of LS’ damage)(including multi-hit attacks):

Elementalist

• Fire Grab
• Churning Earth
• Dragon Tooth
• Phoenix (Explosion)
• Drake’s Breath
• Burning Speed
• Meteor Shower
• Ice Spike
• Lightning Surge
• Eruption

Engineer

• Jump Shot
• Blunderbuss
• BoB
• Grenade Barrage
• Flame Jet
• Detonate Flame Blast

Guardian

• Whirling Wrath
• Faithful Strike
• Mighty Blow
• Smite (at least 5 strikes)
• Zealot’s Defense
• Sword Wave
• SoWrath (explosion)

Mesmer

• Phantasmal Berkserker
• Illusionary Warlock
• Confusing Images
• Blurred Frenzy
• Phantasmal Duelist
• Illusionary Riposte
• Phantasmal Swordsman
• Phantasmal Warden
• Mind Wrack (three clones)

Necromancer

• Ghastly Claws
• Life Siphon
• Life Transfer

Ranger

• Maul
• Counterattack
• Rapid Fire
• Barrage
• Hunter’s Call

Thief

• Backstab (back side)
• Heartseeker (< 50%)
• Unload
• Pistol Whip
• Cluster Bomb

Warrior

• Hundred Blades
• Rush
• Arcing Slice
• Fierce Blow
• Backbreaker
• Earthshaker
• Arcing Arrow
• Volley
• Kill Shot
• Triple Chop
• Eviscerate (any)
• Pulverize
• Counterblow
• Skull Crack
• Final Thrust (either)
• Whirling Axe

And that’s not including AoE pulses or conditions, neither of which thieves have in abundance. Of course, not all of these skills are very good, or hit often enough to always do more damage than LS, but many, many of them deal more damage than LS does anyways (100b only needs to hit a few times to do more damage, for instance), and to act like all of these skills are worse than thief’s skills is, quite frankly, absurd and ignorant. Thieves quite definitively do not have more damage “universally” than other classes do.

All I have to say to this, you made no point comparing thief to other professions with HIGHLY TELEGRAPHED, CASTED and/or CHANNELED, COOL DOWNED abilities to a thief whom is under telegraphed few cast times, few channels and no cool downs.

The only thief skills that aren’t “highly telegraphed/channelled” are Tactical Strike and Backstab. The requirements for setting those up (CnD, BPS + HS, smokescreen + HS, SR) are all highly telegraphed with the exception of blinding powder and traited steal (the latter of which I’ve never seen used).

Well I for one do actually like these changes. I find these changes to be quite interesting, and would make the Thief a more interesting class. BUT, like all things, if this is EVER implemented it needs to be tested first

Maugetarr.6823:

Stogzlol.4795:

All I have to say to this, you made no point comparing thief to other professions with HIGHLY TELEGRAPHED, CASTED and/or CHANNELED, COOL DOWNED abilities to a thief whom is under telegraphed few cast times, few channels and no cool downs.

The only thief skills that aren’t “highly telegraphed/channelled” are Tactical Strike and Backstab. The requirements for setting those up (CnD, BPS + HS, smokescreen + HS, SR) are all highly telegraphed with the exception of blinding powder and traited steal (the latter of which I’ve never seen used).

Stogzlol.4795 isn’t necessarily trying to argue whether or not the Thief skills in that list are poorly cued (even though they are). The reason why Arganthium.5638’s list of attacks with a damage coefficient above 1.3 is a poor argument is because the vast majority of the skills listed there are very well cued (aside from a few notable exceptions that should be nerfed in their own respective ways) to the point where if you’re hit by something like [Ice Spike], [Big Ol’ Bomb] or Ranger greatsword [Counterattack], you mostly deserve it. Those skills earn their damage coefficients. Most Thief skills don’t deserve high damage coefficients since they don’t have long cast-times, are typically poorly cued and don’t possess any post-cast delays.

good god no more support rolls for the thief . it is a solo class and the second it becomes forced to be a team based class i am done .
i play guard ranger mesmer had other classes i deleted . but i do not want another team based class!
if i wanted to play another support class i would make a new element again

Swagg.9236:

Stogzlol.4795 isn’t necessarily trying to argue whether or not the Thief skills in that list are poorly cued (even though they are). The reason why Arganthium.5638’s list of attacks with a damage coefficient above 1.3 is a poor argument is because the vast majority of the skills listed there are very well cued (aside from a few notable exceptions that should be nerfed in their own respective ways) to the point where if you’re hit by something like [Ice Spike], [Big Ol’ Bomb] or Ranger greatsword [Counterattack], you mostly deserve it. Those skills earn their damage coefficients. Most Thief skills don’t deserve high damage coefficients since they don’t have long cast-times, are typically poorly cued and don’t possess any post-cast delays.

There are two things critically wrong with this statement. First of all, thief skills do have long cast-times, especially when you take after casts into account (or “post-cast delays”, whichever you prefer). We’ve already had this discussion before. I presented you empirical evidence regarding these casts, and in return you presented me a single trial which was highly biased towards its result without any real analysis performed in its conclusion. A “true” instant-cast skill with zero after cast might be Elementalist’s Lightning Flash or Blinding Flash, thief’s Signet of Shadows and Shadowstep, Guardian’s Judge’s Intervention, Warrior Stances, and so on. There are very, very few weapon skills in the game with extremely short cast times, and even fewer with zero after cast.

As for the skills that you say “deserve their damage coefficients”, that’s another matter entirely. While it may be true in the context of that individual skill, it may not be so in the context of combos performed with other weapon skills during the casting time. For instance, if I use Phoenix on you on my Ele, you could very well evade into a Fire Grab. These types of skills are long-term investments; they might not provide you with damage right now, but they could in the near but unclear future. There are other considerations as well to take into account, of course. For example, you might not be immobilized now, but you could be immobilized when the skill hits. You might have 50% Endurance Regeneration right now, but you might have 0% when that skill hits because you just dodged an Eviscerate. You could have 20% Endurance right now, and judge that by the time the skill lands, you’ll just barely have enough Endurance to dodge, but that doesn’t account for the possibility that you might have weakness, which is a factor that you can’t really control much (and even if you can control it, half a second of weakness might just be enough to get you killed). You could have a condi clear ready and an evade, but then get stunned and are unable to counter that. The net result is that while these skills, by themselves, do represent a pretty heavy and often worthless investment, in the context of all of the other skills that they are accompanied by, it is very, very difficult to simply write off these skills as “deserving their damage coefficients” just because of their delays between casting and damage. Not to mention- another ally of yours might step in at just the wrong moment (perhaps he was pushed back, or portaled, or used some kind of mobility skill) and just barely managed to get hit by the skill. That’s a possibility as well.

I do not believe that that extra 5k HP would make up for all the further proposed changes.

5k extra HP on a thief is a joke as there is no back up with good heals or high protection rate like on guards. Weakness against condi is not adressed either.

Besides staggered is absolutely useless vs classes that don’t rely on protection so overall it will be huge nerf for thieves vs those classes…

You are also wrong by adding CDs to spells, ppl say it is awesome to have initiative but it is actually a punishment to a thief. As i told you so many times before, if i used initiative on combo + few attacks i won’t have enough ini for anything meaningfull for a while even if i switch weapons, compare it to any other class that can hit 1 2 3 4 5 switch weapon and go 1 2 3 4 5 again. You CD proporsal just shows that you have no idea about initiative and ini managment on a class and how it works in reality.

The class itself is already pretty much a bottom feeder (after eles)….they are only good at one role “roamer” and that’s it…your changes would make the class even less diserable and very very clunky…so no, ty.

P.S. btw, OP stated before that he doesn’t play a thief nor he needs to play a thief to make balance suggestions. I do believe that you need to play thief in competitive pvp and in pve (hard content) for extended period of time to be able to make any meaningfull suggestions.

Cynz.9437:

5k extra HP on a thief is a joke as there is no back up with good heals or high protection rate like on guards. Weakness against condi is not adressed either.

Evades, CC and blind remain scattered throughout Thief weapon sets. “I’m weak against conditions” isn’t a valid argument. There are plenty of specs across professions that make a player susceptible to condition damage.

Cynz.9437:

Besides staggered is absolutely useless vs classes that don’t rely on protection so overall it will be huge nerf for thieves vs those classes…

A poor argument. It’s not a nerf at all. It simply breaks even against classes that don’t rely on protection.

Cynz.9437:

You are also wrong by adding CDs to spells, ppl say it is awesome to have initiative but it is actually a punishment to a thief.

Spamming skills is the most broken mechanic in the game because it undermines timed dodges by allowing the Thief to continually spam the powerful attacks over and over again. When there aren’t any cool-downs, it never provides an opponent a keen sense of when to save or expend dodges or damage mitigation skills. This goes against a fundamental rule that governs balanced GW2 combat.

Cynz.9437:

As i told you so many times before, if i used initiative on combo + few attacks i won’t have enough ini for anything meaningfull for a while even if i switch weapons, compare it to any other class that can hit 1 2 3 4 5 switch weapon and go 1 2 3 4 5 again. You CD proporsal just shows that you have no idea about initiative and ini managment on a class and how it works in reality.

You’re thinking in a vacuum again. I’m looking at ways of adding more individual skill definition across the all professions; not just for Thieves. It’s something that every class needs.

And you’ve gotta be joking anyway. “Ini management on a class.” I suppose by that you mean “playing within the constraints of a resource management mechanic for any given class in a game.” Playing anything in GW1 was leagues beyond anything that Thieves have to worry about in GW2 when it comes to resource management.

Cynz.9437:

The class itself is already pretty much a bottom feeder (after eles)….they are only good at one role “roamer” and that’s it…your changes would make the class even less diserable and very very clunky…so no, ty.

Thief needs these changes to fall into line with how balanced combat should appear in Guild Wars 2. It’s a class founded on imbalances; a class that breaks all of the rules over and over again because it is so poorly designed.

" your changes would make the class even less desirable and very very clunky" is a sentence without any visceral substance. “Less desirable” is your subjective opinion that is also completely separate from the understanding of the mechanics that balance GW2 combat. Moreover, “very very clunky” is probably how you say “I’m not OK with not being able to instantly teleport to everyone anymore.” Tough rocks, bucko. Spammable, no-cue/unblockable direct-to-target ranged teleports are overpowered gap-closers that simultaneously break several rules that govern balanced GW2 combat. Changes must be made to make the class fair.

Cynz.9437:

P.S. btw, OP stated before that he doesn’t play a thief nor he needs to play a thief to make balance suggestions. I do believe that you need to play thief in competitive pvp and in pve (hard content) for extended period of time to be able to make any meaningfull suggestions.

You’re probably thinking of a discussion from quite some time ago; things change but assumptions are always a poor basis for an arugment. And if you’re going to make sub-par ad hominem arguments anyway, you can go ahead.

My main points about what makes combat balanced in GW2 remain valid. Because Thief clearly violates those rules on many occasions, that makes my analysis of the Thief being inherently broken also valid. My changes for the Thief follow those simple rules that govern balanced combat in GW2, so they too remain valid points if not necessarily the only solution to the problem of the Thief’s rule-breaking.

So you can try to trash my name all you want, but you will never be able to counter the fundamental rules that govern how combat should work in this game.

TL;DR
You’re too accustomed to playing with a broken class that employs unfair mechanics. Well, put on your big boy pants because we’re going to have to fix it in order to save GW2.

Burnfall.9573:

OP-Swagg,

I’ve been following your work for some time and i want to say, that i’m impressed by your wonderful creativity ideas about class balance. Many times i almost believe you are a undercover Arena.net dev (wish so) who is in the interest of Balancing the classes and the game.

Now it’s the thief class; you are absolutely on point with everything you stated about this Outrageous OP class design, mechanic and its one-direction philosophy.

For the past 1 year+6 months, yet no consideration, accommodation in listening to, in resolving their community concerns.

It it so obvious they will continue to ignore, and take no action toward their community and its player base concerns.

As one told me, “to know the Truth, is to know it’s history”. 1 Year+6months is enough history.

Encouragement+ Blessing

Swagg i encourage you to not give up your wonderful ideas and creativity concerning Class Balance and Bad Class Designs/ OP Class/s.

I’m sure a MMO company who believe in the same ideas, philosophy will be ready to listen and accept you with open arms.

Also,

Good work to the many wonderful minded individuals/players, who share similar/same ideas, philosophy of Balance, for the thief class.

Also,

Good work to those who acknowledge thief class brokenness and unbalance.

" Without balance, is no longer worth… for effort "

There will come a time where all efforts, and hard works… will be Rewarded and Appreciated.

“Life, Time reward and bless those who seek change for the better”

Reality

Too many wonderful wasted ideas, philosophy from wonderful minded players have long been gone, ignored in the threads, posts for far too long; it is time to put them where they belong and well deserve.

Sorry to tell you this, Swagg, but Burnfall agrees with your changes.
I think that means you need to consider a few more buffs in your changes to thief.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Sorry to tell you this, Swagg, but Burnfall agrees with your changes.
I think that means you need to consider a few more buffs in your changes to thief.

If you’ve got an issue with my ideas, you come after me. Don’t down-talk someone else because of how that person feels about what I say—good or bad.

They are scattered through thief weapon sets and? What does it have to do with 5k not being able to make up for the nerfs you propose?

How is condition weakness is not valid argument? Game is flooded with condi aoe spam. 5k not gonna help much if thief is eating 700 burns/800 confusion ticks and kills target slower due to your changes. The only reason why thieves can even be somehow viable atm with their bad survival IS because they have chance to kill someone before that person kills them. All other profs do not rely on stealth for condi clear, quite few of them have absolute condi immunity/transfer.

Breaks even vs classes that don’t rely on protection? Are you implying that classes w/o protection don’t have a chance against thief atm? Is it some kind of bad joke? I can name few professions that given same skill will kitten on thief and they don’t have protection.

Actually, if i see a thief spamming certain “powerfull” attack i know when to dodge and i know when he can’t use anything because he is sitting at 0 ini. All spells from CD based classes are usually pretty powerfull (and not just 1-2 like for thief) and you don’t get punished as hard if one of your spells misses. Thieves are way easier to punish than CD based classes.

This thread is about thieves, and given your CD suggestion it would make thieves garbage and very clunky in current state of game. If anyone, you are thinking in vacuum.

This is GW2, not GW1. If you want to play GW1 go play it, trying to turn it into GW1 is pointless as this game is running on completely different mechanics. Thieves do have to worry about ini managment, no matter what you call it and how you color it. No other class in this game has to worry about their spells going on CD because they used another spell.

Which rules did thief breaks, please elaborate. You wanna know what class is built on imbalance right now? Warrior. Absolutely no weakness on the class atm. They used to have one but it was gone since cleansing ire.

Actually my statement isn’t subjective. If you look at LFG, if you do pve, you will see mostly LF zerker warriors, heavies only, etc. If you look at pvp forums, you see thieves sitting on the bottom of the team list. If you look at wvw reruitments you will see guilds looking for warriors, eles, guards, rarely anyone is looking for a thief except for a roaming guild maybe. I have done pve, wvw and pvp in this game, a lot. In 90% of the time unless you start your own group, you won’t find many groups you could run anything with.. or you will be kindly asked to switch to something else.

Clunky means is how much you complicate the execution of certain attack chain to the point where it is simply not worth the result it delivers and the time spent. If you didn’t notice most classes don’t even rely on combos (except for eles maybe), they just press 1 2 3 4 5 swap 1 2 3 4 5. Thief is already pretty mechanical, adding more mechanics and conditions for successfull execution will just make class not worth playing and way too risky in fast paced combat like GW2.

Actually many of thief teleports are blockable or don’t work while blinded. Melee class has gap closers, how dare he to actually use gap closer while being chilled and crippled at the same time and being rained with ranged attacks. In every game melee classes had gap closers and some sort of CC so they could fight ranged classes. Ranged classes don’t have to worry about chasing hit box, ranged have more space to avoid attacks, they don’t have to worry about being forced to run into aoe to fight an enemy. Nerfing gap closers would just make any melee class too weak. I think GW2 is actully the first game where ranged doesn’t completely dominate the game and i am thankful to devs for it.

It is your personal opinion, that class is unfair. There are plenty of players that think otherwise.

The fact stays that you do not have great experience on a thief in every area in this game so your suggestions are based on YOUR assumtions and bear no weight.

And what makes GW2 combat balanced, please explain? Who are YOU to decide what is balanced and what is not? Again, what rules are we talking about here?

Now you are actually using that so loved “ad hominem” since you assume that i only play thief and too used to “broken” (in YOUR opnion) mechanics. Jokes are, i play other classes.

Thieves ganking some upIv in wvw isn’t reason why GW2 might not look good in the future. I personally think major GW2 issues are:
- 2 weeks LS which results in shallow, half done, buggy content, lack of raids, dungeons
- huge imbalances in wvw including zerging, golem rush, weakness of defence, outnumbered buff being crap, hammer trains, lack of reason to do wvw when you face way more populated servers etc.
- very undeveloped pvp system: 1 game mode, skyhammer/spirit watch in soloq, lack of rewards in pvp, lack of maps, no seasons in pvp, aoe/condi tanks etc.

Cynz.9437:

Everything you said.

I really can’t talk to you. I mean, I want to, but you just keep going off topic and making up “points” that have no bearing on the fundamental aspects of what makes for balanced GW2 combat.

That’s all I’m arguing, man. It’s very simple. There are many mechanics that appear in GW2 in order to make combat balanced for a player and his/her opponent. The Thief forgoes most of those balancing mechanics and therefore should be fixed.

Swagg.9236:

DeceiverX.8361:

So again, you’re stating that because a thief can burst on par with most other classes..

Spike damage of such magnitude does not belong in Guild Wars 2. Every instance of such levels of burst damage has to be toned down or changed outright. No class deserves it. No class needs it. This game isn’t built to handle it.

Says who? You? Sorry to say, but you don’t get to be the judge of what does and does not ‘belong’ in GW2.

Swagg.9236:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Sorry to tell you this, Swagg, but Burnfall agrees with your changes.
I think that means you need to consider a few more buffs in your changes to thief.

If you’ve got an issue with my ideas, you come after me. Don’t down-talk someone else because of how that person feels about what I say—good or bad.

Nah I’m just still kittened at him because he came on to the ele forums claiming that elementalists are overpowered a bit back and started yelling about justice, in addition to saying that everyone thinking that they were underpowered was the result of a conspiracy.
My post was more of a joke than anything else.
The thief I’m levelling now (and have resolved to never use stealth with outside of specific PvE objectives) is only level 35, so I don’t feel like I have anything actually valid to contribute anyway.

Edit: Also, look at his post history with respect to thieves. He sort of… hates them.

Swagg.9236:

Cynz.9437:

Everything you said.

I really can’t talk to you. I mean, I want to, but you just keep going off topic and making up “points” that have no bearing on the fundamental aspects of what makes for balanced GW2 combat.

That’s all I’m arguing, man. It’s very simple. There are many mechanics that appear in GW2 in order to make combat balanced for a player and his/her opponent. The Thief forgoes most of those balancing mechanics and therefore should be fixed.

you still didn’ answer what are those rules you are talking about and what are those “fundamental aspects”… please, enlighten me

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Nah I’m just still kittened at him because he came on to the ele forums claiming that elementalists are overpowered a bit back and started yelling about justice, in addition to saying that everyone thinking that they were underpowered was the result of a conspiracy.
My post was more of a joke than anything else.

Some aspects of Elementalist are indeed very overpowered, though.

Cynz.9437:

you still didn’ answer what are those rules you are talking about and what are those “fundamental aspects”… please, enlighten me

1. What is a dedicated healer within the context of an MMORPG?

• A dedicated healer is a mechanic that constantly extends the effective HP of a single target or sometimes many targets simultaneously. This single mechanic not only almost instantly organizes a party composition but also dictates how that party fights in battle.
• The healer/damage mitigation class mechanic is an unfair mechanic because of how effective it can be at keeping players alive. To counter this, DPS classes and spike-damage classes come into existence.
• With the presence of a healer/damage-mitigation class as an unfair mechanic, the assassination/debuff class(es) make headway in game-play as an equally unfair counter-mechanic by delivering huge amounts of damage/debuffs/CC in short periods of time in order to balance combat out so players don’t just end up living forever.

2. Guild Wars 2 has no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. With this comes three crucial points to keep in mind when designing the game:

• Every profession must be granted some form of innate self-defense mechanic in order to mitigate incoming damage. We have that in the form of healing skills and the invulnerability frames granted by the dodge mechanic. Good positioning on the battlefield is also a defensive mechanic available to every class, but it’s less of an implied mechanic than the other two because it’s useful primarily for ranged classes and isn’t necessarily activated by pressing a button.
• Without a dedicated healer/damage mitigation class to actively counter unfair offensive mechanics such as instant-activation or poorly cued damage, all high damage sources or potentially game-changing CC in GW2 should therefore always be well-cued in order to give the opponent an opportunity to counter-play. Without proper counter-play windows, the game is reduced to “Whoever presses the most buttons the fastest wins.”
• In addition to the minimal profession-wide damage mitigation abilities, each profession must have additional, clutch manners of mitigating incoming damage. The ways in which each profession mitigates incoming damage is an opportunity to further define its play-style.

3. Guild Wars 2 is a game that was designed to have players read their opponent’s skill cues as a means of providing counter-play windows in which a player could dodge, block, blind or quickly reposition in order to avoid damage. To this effect, ANet has designed several manners of reading an opponent’s skills such as:

• Post-cast effect delays
• Red circles
• Projectiles that can be blocked, reflected or destroyed
• On-caster visual cues
• Long cast-times
• Gap-closer skills that requires the player to run or leap to a target/target area

However, despite these various cues and their important nature in governing balance, there are a many slew of skills in GW2 that forego 2 or more of the above balancing principles. These skills should be looked at critically and either nerfed or functionally changed in order to bring them into line with how combat should appear in-game. Giving certain weapon sets or play-styles free hits for certain skill usage in a game where the “holy trinity” is absent is asking for trouble.

And that’s basically it. Because there’s no “Holy Trinity,” the vast majority of the Thief play-style as well as the play-styles of many other professions just simply don’t belong in Guild Wars 2 because the way that they inflict damage typically forgoes a lot of the basic principles that govern balanced combat in GW2. The game was functionally not designed to handle those kinds of play-styles. That’s why a lot of these changes are so drastic.

Swagg.9236:

Cynz.9437:

you still didn’ answer what are those rules you are talking about and what are those “fundamental aspects”… please, enlighten me

1. What is a dedicated healer within the context of an MMORPG?

• A dedicated healer is a mechanic that constantly extends the effective HP of a single target or sometimes many targets simultaneously. This single mechanic not only almost instantly organizes a party composition but also dictates how that party fights in battle.
• The healer/damage mitigation class mechanic is an unfair mechanic because of how effective it can be at keeping players alive. To counter this, DPS classes and spike-damage classes come into existence.
• With the presence of a healer/damage-mitigation class as an unfair mechanic, the assassination/debuff class(es) make headway in game-play as an equally unfair counter-mechanic by delivering huge amounts of damage/debuffs/CC in short periods of time in order to balance combat out so players don’t just end up living forever.

2. Guild Wars 2 has no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. With this comes three crucial points to keep in mind when designing the game:

• Every profession must be granted some form of innate self-defense mechanic in order to mitigate incoming damage. We have that in the form of healing skills and the invulnerability frames granted by the dodge mechanic. Good positioning on the battlefield is also a defensive mechanic available to every class, but it’s less of an implied mechanic than the other two because it’s useful primarily for ranged classes and isn’t necessarily activated by pressing a button.
• Without a dedicated healer/damage mitigation class to actively counter unfair offensive mechanics such as instant-activation or poorly cued damage, all high damage sources or potentially game-changing CC in GW2 should therefore always be well-cued in order to give the opponent an opportunity to counter-play. Without proper counter-play windows, the game is reduced to “Whoever presses the most buttons the fastest wins.”
• In addition to the minimal profession-wide damage mitigation abilities, each profession must have additional, clutch manners of mitigating incoming damage. The ways in which each profession mitigates incoming damage is an opportunity to further define its play-style.

3. Guild Wars 2 is a game that was designed to have players read their opponent’s skill cues as a means of providing counter-play windows in which a player could dodge, block, blind or quickly reposition in order to avoid damage. To this effect, ANet has designed several manners of reading an opponent’s skills such as:

• Post-cast effect delays
• Red circles
• Projectiles that can be blocked, reflected or destroyed
• On-caster visual cues
• Long cast-times
• Gap-closer skills that requires the player to run or leap to a target/target area

However, despite these various cues and their important nature in governing balance, there are a many slew of skills in GW2 that forego 2 or more of the above balancing principles. These skills should be looked at critically and either nerfed or functionally changed in order to bring them into line with how combat should appear in-game. Giving certain weapon sets or play-styles free hits for certain skill usage in a game where the “holy trinity” is absent is asking for trouble.

And that’s basically it. Because there’s no “Holy Trinity,” the vast majority of the Thief play-style as well as the play-styles of many other professions just simply don’t belong in Guild Wars 2 because the way that they inflict damage typically forgoes a lot of the basic principles that govern balanced combat in GW2. The game was functionally not designed to handle those kinds of play-styles. That’s why a lot of these changes are so drastic.

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

Maugetarr.6823:

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

There are very clear conditions that have to be met when constructing a PvP environment in an 3rd-person MMO that employs auto-targeted attacks but also forgoes a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. This isn’t about what anyone wants; this is about what it takes to make a balanced and engaging MMO combat system without dedicating an entire player class to actively manage the party’s red bars.

In any case, you’re not attempting to argue any of the points that I’ve made.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

There are very clear conditions that have to be met when constructing a PvP environment in an 3rd-person MMO that employs auto-targeted attacks but also forgoes a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. This isn’t about what anyone wants; this is about what it takes to make a balanced and engaging MMO combat system without dedicating an entire player class to actively manage the party’s red bars.

In any case, you’re not attempting to argue any of the points that I’ve made.

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes. Your changes will slow down the game and make it less interesting (for me). The problem is that the game doesn’t fit how you think it should be played, but it very nearly fits mine with both tactical and twitch skills needed to play it well. Implementing your changes would make the game bland.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

There are very clear conditions that have to be met when constructing a PvP environment in an 3rd-person MMO that employs auto-targeted attacks but also forgoes a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. This isn’t about what anyone wants; this is about what it takes to make a balanced and engaging MMO combat system without dedicating an entire player class to actively manage the party’s red bars.

In any case, you’re not attempting to argue any of the points that I’ve made.

You think that those are the only rules that govern the way they designed the game. As if you where in the meeting but that can’t possibly be the only rules that govern the game because there are several instant cast attacks in the game or the cast animation is so fast that it is almost impossible to see coming. This maybe have been put in place to give those skills the illusion that they are indeed extremely powerful. To also counter alot of the instant cast defenses available to professions.

At the basic core the design decision could have been lets give some skills instant cast “free” potential damage because there is instant cast "free’ damage mitigation.

I can’t see why you and some other’s think that the balance team let anomalies into the game instead of those presumed anomalies being decided choices. It’s like the statement you see on the forums alot that a Dev doesn’t like a class though they designed it or helped designed it or could have nothing to do with profession creation at all.

From all your threads it looks like you want to slow the combat down and make it predictable where anything instant is bad and therefore must be changed. I personally see those more instant type of spells provide the illusion of reliable attacks that you can count on.