Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

Vargamonth.2047:

Silferas.3841:

At the livestream this friday, they are going to go over the “critical damage change”…

I don’t like the sound of that… Not one tiny bit

The most expectable thing is getting half critical damage on gear split into vitality.
It’s not the kind of “fix” i would want to see (it’s incredibly cheap and lazy; the same result could be achieved in a much better shape with similar changes), but it somewhat addresses the “issue” and is consistent with sPvP gear.

This would lower the skillcap of zerker gear even more and make even more people use it. So I really hope anet arent that shortsighted.

You expected something other than a total clusterf&*k solution from ANet?

Everyone with a modicum of sense knew that the dps pve meta was driven by mechanics and not by stats. It was also obvious to anyone with said sense ANet was never really going to overhaul the mechanics, they were always just going to nerf/alter stats.

Which will achieve sweet fa apart from annoy some players and appease others who just have an irrational hatred of zerk players.

I was wondering if there could be some resolution to the zerker issue if they added a stat that acted like vigor (increasing your endurance regen by a percentage), if that would help? Obviously this would mean removing vigor from the game and having it on other gear as well to encourage more customizability, but I wonder it’s an option? Then again, that may still pigeon-hole people into the “optimal setup” nonetheless.

Mind you, I haven’t read through much of this thread, but it came to mind. I’m sure there are greater minds than me when it comes to suggestions! :-)

You just have to kill them before they kill you. The game’s current mechanics uses a greater return on attack power than armor. You just have to find the fastest way to kill mobs during that 2-3 dodge rolls you have. The answer is simple: limit dodging(10sec cool down), have toughness/armor have an exponential effect for damage mitigation, and give smarter enemy attacks. The factor here to make armor more effective/necessity and mob mechanics

Asumita.2174:

You just have to kill them before they kill you. The game’s current mechanics uses a greater return on attack power than armor. You just have to find the fastest way to kill mobs during that 2-3 dodge rolls you have. The answer is simple: limit dodging(10sec cool down), have toughness/armor have an exponential effect for damage mitigation, and give smarter enemy attacks. The factor here to make armor more effective/necessity and mob mechanics

No. That is not the solution. It will hurt players more than zerkers.

The solution is to fix stacking. Make stacking the least optimal tactic. Why do zerkers stack? Because it creates the highest damage, and it is the safest tactic. If someone goes down, you can res them back up easily.

Remove stacking and then zerkers will not be viable for the average pug. This will also make optimal play less stale and boring. It will make dungeons be about making use of the open space instead of hiding in a corner.

I think they are going a wrong direction……
I hope I’m wrong….

More bounce and small radious AOE effects that are beneficial would help reduce the incentive to stack.

Most of the really effective support utilities are PBAOEs, meaning that to really benefit the whole group, they have to gather around the caster. That is much easier to do when everyone is stacking on (or in) the boss.

If they instead could fire a skill at the boss, and have it affect group members around the boss, or bounce to the group members afterwards, there would be less need to be in the boss’ face constantly.

Afya.5842:

I think they are going a wrong direction……
I hope I’m wrong….

all but addressing the real issue …..

They won t never consider looking at warriors and guardians…never.

If they weren t so easy and efficient we ’d see 99% of melee zerk stacking Groups at least starting changing tactic and possibly even equip…

Zerk would still exist but would be balanced with everything else.

runeblade.7514:

Asumita.2174:

You just have to kill them before they kill you. The game’s current mechanics uses a greater return on attack power than armor. You just have to find the fastest way to kill mobs during that 2-3 dodge rolls you have. The answer is simple: limit dodging(10sec cool down), have toughness/armor have an exponential effect for damage mitigation, and give smarter enemy attacks. The factor here to make armor more effective/necessity and mob mechanics

No. That is not the solution. It will hurt players more than zerkers.

The solution is to fix stacking. Make stacking the least optimal tactic. Why do zerkers stack? Because it creates the highest damage, and it is the safest tactic. If someone goes down, you can res them back up easily.

Remove stacking and then zerkers will not be viable for the average pug. This will also make optimal play less stale and boring. It will make dungeons be about making use of the open space instead of hiding in a corner.

Zerkers stack for the same reason non zerkers stack.
- It’s because support requires stacking. A lot of really useful fields are small.
- It’s because cleaves are small. It doesn’t matter how much damage you do if you can only hit 1/3 of your maximum targets.
- it’s because classes have AOE damage. If a skill can hit 3 targets, the only way to be efficient is to hit 3 targets.

Remove all forms of AOE and players won’t stack.

Silferas.3841:

At the livestream this friday, they are going to go over the “critical damage change”…

I don’t like the sound of that… Not one tiny bit

With any luck it means Precision is being removed as a stat (not Prowess, just Precision). I think the game could be balanced much better if crit chance was a function of class and specific attack used.

Crit damage isn’t a problem.

Real problems:

10 people rallying off a lv3 upscale

The fact that everyone stack up on top of one another in your game (WvW)

That the highest armor class has no specific weakness and also does the most damage

That it takes 4x more times for a class to cast a skill that does less damage than another

Seetoo.9316:

runeblade.7514:

Asumita.2174:

You just have to kill them before they kill you. The game’s current mechanics uses a greater return on attack power than armor. You just have to find the fastest way to kill mobs during that 2-3 dodge rolls you have. The answer is simple: limit dodging(10sec cool down), have toughness/armor have an exponential effect for damage mitigation, and give smarter enemy attacks. The factor here to make armor more effective/necessity and mob mechanics

No. That is not the solution. It will hurt players more than zerkers.

The solution is to fix stacking. Make stacking the least optimal tactic. Why do zerkers stack? Because it creates the highest damage, and it is the safest tactic. If someone goes down, you can res them back up easily.

Remove stacking and then zerkers will not be viable for the average pug. This will also make optimal play less stale and boring. It will make dungeons be about making use of the open space instead of hiding in a corner.

Zerkers stack for the same reason non zerkers stack.
- It’s because support requires stacking. A lot of really useful fields are small.
- It’s because cleaves are small. It doesn’t matter how much damage you do if you can only hit 1/3 of your maximum targets.
- it’s because classes have AOE damage. If a skill can hit 3 targets, the only way to be efficient is to hit 3 targets.

Remove all forms of AOE and players won’t stack.

Another way to make stacking not viable is to make it unfavorable.

If a mob’s auto attack hits the third player in a single hit, that player will get 50% more damage. This will cause res-fest to average pugs. Less DPS, more ressing. Pets will not get hit by the cleave unless there is no other players. Which means, Mob’s cleave attacks will prioritize players, not pets.

Your idea to fix stacking is terrible. Try thinking better ideas.

Changing the way stats work is not the correct way to adress the dps/zeker meta… That’s the easy way out and will just create more unbalance !

How can anet not see this ?? “critical damage changes” sounds HORRIBLE. seems like conditions will be even more OP in pvp now…

EXACTLY like blood red anarchid explained in his other post: to adress dps meta(a PVE ISSUE) they CAN NOT change the way stats work because stats are already balanced correctly among professions. What has to change is the way mobs work so that they require more intelligent play !

Teamplay between support, control, condi AND dps specs will again get a role in this game if they adress this issue EXACTLY like Blood pointed out…

Given PvE and class balance there are just two main PvE party rules.
1) Can’t survive – get one more guardian
2) Can survive – do more damage
Gear and stats on gear in no way may or will affect these two rules.

Zerker required? Lies. When people see my full giver’s engi with 20+ might from me alone 24/7 in combat they stop caring about gear I wear.

Remember, most people (especially who “enjoyed” the same pve content for nearly 2 years now) would much rather finish dungeon faster.
What a non-zerker character means to them? Less damage. And, maybe, inability to play in glass cannon mode. Why would they ever party with anyone like that?
Its written all over the game. “DO NOT GET HIT”.
If you get hit, you are doing it wrong.
If you take stats that reduce the damage you take from hits, you are doing it wrong.
If you take stats to heal that damage, you are doing it wrong.
Since there is NO reason to take anything but damage in pve, why would you?
Zerker is not something op. Its just any other gear is either just stupid in pve (for containing stats that work only when you get hit) or just weak (talking about condition cap and condition damage overwriting).

but they will never nerf warriors and guardians…

Its not that even when people used to run in PVT in pve they were the most required professions.
Its not that guardian support is the most and the ONLY pve played support profession since release (only recently was switch to dps in SOME parties).

Its better to make a change that improve the innate stats and abilities of those 2 profession .

I m totally gonna build a competitive pve condition mesmer….

runeblade.7514:

Seetoo.9316:

runeblade.7514:

Asumita.2174:

You just have to kill them before they kill you. The game’s current mechanics uses a greater return on attack power than armor. You just have to find the fastest way to kill mobs during that 2-3 dodge rolls you have. The answer is simple: limit dodging(10sec cool down), have toughness/armor have an exponential effect for damage mitigation, and give smarter enemy attacks. The factor here to make armor more effective/necessity and mob mechanics

No. That is not the solution. It will hurt players more than zerkers.

The solution is to fix stacking. Make stacking the least optimal tactic. Why do zerkers stack? Because it creates the highest damage, and it is the safest tactic. If someone goes down, you can res them back up easily.

Remove stacking and then zerkers will not be viable for the average pug. This will also make optimal play less stale and boring. It will make dungeons be about making use of the open space instead of hiding in a corner.

Zerkers stack for the same reason non zerkers stack.
- It’s because support requires stacking. A lot of really useful fields are small.
- It’s because cleaves are small. It doesn’t matter how much damage you do if you can only hit 1/3 of your maximum targets.
- it’s because classes have AOE damage. If a skill can hit 3 targets, the only way to be efficient is to hit 3 targets.

Remove all forms of AOE and players won’t stack.

Another way to make stacking not viable is to make it unfavorable.

If a mob’s auto attack hits the third player in a single hit, that player will get 50% more damage. This will cause res-fest to average pugs. Less DPS, more ressing. Pets will not get hit by the cleave unless there is no other players. Which means, Mob’s cleave attacks will prioritize players, not pets.

Your idea to fix stacking is terrible. Try thinking better ideas.

The post wasn’t to fix stacking. It was to show WHY players stack. Zerk or not players WILL stack. It’s the most efficient way to do EVERYTHING (CC, support, or dps).

The last line was just a bit of sarcasm.

LordByron.8369:

Its not that guardian support is the most and the ONLY pve played support profession since release (only recently was switch to dps in SOME parties).

While I partially agree, I thought that HGH Engineers and Spirit Rangers are also rather accepted dungeon runners due to the rather extra power they bring to the party. Although in the case of the Engineer due to how broken Static Discharge is, it’s really a rather high loss of personal DPS.

There’s also Venom Thieves. It’s fun to break mob scripts with Basilisk Venom on the entire party.

Carighan.6758:

LordByron.8369:

Its not that guardian support is the most and the ONLY pve played support profession since release (only recently was switch to dps in SOME parties).

While I partially agree, I thought that HGH Engineers and Spirit Rangers are also rather accepted dungeon runners due to the rather extra power they bring to the party. Although in the case of the Engineer due to how broken Static Discharge is, it’s really a rather high loss of personal DPS.

There’s also Venom Thieves. It’s fun to break mob scripts with Basilisk Venom on the entire party.

since i was talking of pugs i don t see eng and rangers as “accepted”.
The skill floor cover a huge role in that…and itsthe first thing that needs to be changed.

This thread has more than doubled in size, and there are so many thoughtlines flying around that I’m not sure exactly who to respond. However, I will try to touch on a few things:

#1: Dodge and the Heal Skill are not the only forms of active defense. They are the only universal forms of active defense. Classes still have blinds, stuns, vigor, blocks, evades, invulnerability, reflects, supplementary heals, etc. Because of this, balancing around only the dodge and heal skill will result in classes with less defenses in utilities being hit harder.

This is actually a really sticky wicket, because currently active defenses do their job, and they do it very well. You are supposed to reflect a stream of bullets, you are supposed to blind a mob of wolves, you’re supposed to block on the big windup, and you’re supposed to heal after you realize you blocked too early. The problem is that, currently, enemy design is too basic, and so active defenses are capable of handling pretty much everything.

Thankfully, anet has been designing around that for awhile now. New enemy groups and new areas already have many of the suggestions I’ve made put into place.

#2: The problem is not the lack of a mandatory role system. Classes already have roles they fulfill in groups. These roles, however, are nuanced, and multiple can be fulfilled by just one class. The ability to have such diversity in utility for a single class is a strength of GW2: the flexibility opens itself up to diversity, which opens itself up to personalized play style, which makes the game more appealing to potential players.

#3: I must again say that this is not about skilled players or punishing them. The fact the better you are at the game, the better you can function in GC gear is not something I intend to change. The idea I have to fix this zerker dominance will make the game harder for everyone, but in a way that affects glass cannons more than anyone else. End result: using GC gear will still require skill. Even more so, now that the aspects that equalize gear in PVP scenarios will actually exist in PVE. The ability to kill things so fast they don’t do a lot of damage will still be a viable tactic, however balanced upon the idea that damage will be more consistent, and killing enemies will be harder.

This is, unfortunately, the greatest weakness of my suggestion. Making the game harder and more complicated (AKA harder in a different way) is not always the best direction to take the game. Hard to implement and risky outcomes… it is no wonder why Anet is going with a wide sweeping change instead.

Anyway, the thing with skill vs. less skill in gear is not an intended feature, particularly because it is a blanket statement that applies to any game, different gear specs or not. If all of the classes just had predetermined stats and no true gear choice, more skilled players would still be rewarded more than less skilled players. It is quite obvious that different gear is meant to give different advantages and disadvantages to builds, and not to serve as a psuedo-gold sink as players escalate through an arbitrary scale of gear tiers.

#4: This is not about any particular class. Every class sans Necro has loads of active defenses in their utilities, and even Necros have plenty of debuffs alongside of their Lifeforce regeneration mechanic (which acts a bit like a convoluted heal for defensive purposes). As for the subject of class balance… that is what the rest of the forum is for.

heh… gear tiers. That’s fun to say.

Critical damage is finaly taking the nerf bat… good ill be watching the video with popcorns and soda, while considering how ill make my minion master and rampager build for ranger the next time i connect.

This is a glorious day for everyone who never wanted to run CD in the first place, now to get myself a swordshield or summon weapon guardian and a rampager sword warrior ready for the fun.

kyubi.3620:

Critical damage is finaly taking the nerf bat… good ill be watching the video with popcorns and soda, while considering how ill make my minion master and rampager build for ranger the next time i connect.

This is a glorious day for everyone who never wanted to run CD in the first place, now to get myself a swordshield or summon weapon guardian and a rampager sword warrior ready for the fun.

Nerfing Critical damage won’t prevent a DPS oriented meta. And even if your rampager gear does more DPS than a zerk user, you’ll still be unwanted past the first party slot since your DPS doesn’t stack with other rampager users.

So many obvious bads in threads like this, rejoicing that the players who have the ability to keep themselves alive in zerker gear are going to have the rewards for doing so taken away from them. I’d be embarrassed if I were cheering this change for such a reason.

stof.9341:

kyubi.3620:

Critical damage is finaly taking the nerf bat… good ill be watching the video with popcorns and soda, while considering how ill make my minion master and rampager build for ranger the next time i connect.

This is a glorious day for everyone who never wanted to run CD in the first place, now to get myself a swordshield or summon weapon guardian and a rampager sword warrior ready for the fun.

Nerfing Critical damage won’t prevent a DPS oriented meta. And even if your rampager gear does more DPS than a zerk user, you’ll still be unwanted past the first party slot since your DPS doesn’t stack with other rampager users.

Indeed 1 or 2 cond damage per party at best but still better then forcing 5 zerk for max effectiveness on a team. However if zerker damage gets a weaken we might get to see other build like minion master and summon weapon guardian becoming more attractive to players because less personnal phys damage means pets gets a revalue damagewise.

My guess is zerker addict will rage and be depressive like a skooma addict for about a few week because we removed their Power play drug then will settle down and play the game as it was intended to be.

stof.9341:

Nerfing Critical damage won’t prevent a DPS oriented meta. And even if your rampager gear does more DPS than a zerk user, you’ll still be unwanted past the first party slot since your DPS doesn’t stack with other rampager users.

I don’t think this is accurate. If crit damage is itemized like it is in spvp, then the difference between a zerker and non zerker build (who has 30 pts in their crit dmg tree) will be around 20%. Not that big of a difference.

Right now the difference between a non zerker spec with 30pts in their crit dmg tree vs a zerker with 30pts in their crit dmg tree is around 70% crit dmg. Huge huge damage disparity.

I don’t foresee rampagers becoming the meta set, mainly because not every class has good condition mechanics (like guardian). Builds will change a lot if this type of change happens. For instance, dps guardians will tell you that the valor tree is useless, that the 30% crit damage is not better than damage modifiers. And that all you need is crit damage from gear.

All of that is true atm. But after the potential crit damage change, half of the crit damage comes from the valor tree. So if someone wants to have the highest crit damage possible, they would have to put 30 pts into it.

The game is balanced around spvp, thats including wvw and pve. But why Anet didn’t follow the crit damage itemization from spvp is beyond me. The change will make lots of people unhappy. But then again, this change already exists in a spvp setting, so its not new at all.

kyubi.3620:

stof.9341:

kyubi.3620:

Critical damage is finaly taking the nerf bat… good ill be watching the video with popcorns and soda, while considering how ill make my minion master and rampager build for ranger the next time i connect.

This is a glorious day for everyone who never wanted to run CD in the first place, now to get myself a swordshield or summon weapon guardian and a rampager sword warrior ready for the fun.

Nerfing Critical damage won’t prevent a DPS oriented meta. And even if your rampager gear does more DPS than a zerk user, you’ll still be unwanted past the first party slot since your DPS doesn’t stack with other rampager users.

Indeed 1 or 2 cond damage per party at best but still better then forcing 5 zerk for max effectiveness on a team. However if zerker damage gets a weaken we might get to see other build like minion master and summon weapon guardian becoming more attractive to players because less personnal phys damage means pets gets a revalue damagewise.

My guess is zerker addict will rage and be depressive like a skooma addict for about a few week because we removed their Power play drug then will settle down and play the game as it was intended to be.

Intended to be, are you speaking for yourself or the whole gw2 community that spend more time enjoying ingame rather than forum warrior’ing?

only reason i came on forums is to read about the crit changes/nerf/buff or wtv it is.

after reading what you said, i just wonder. is it intended for yourself? like, having things changed just because you want it that way? or majority of the gaming community?

most topics on forums are always “ME, MYSELF, I WANT” or “I BADDIE, NERF EXPERIENCED”.

i highly doubt there are any praises @ forums, most are complains and anger, and changes that “I WANT” instead of “WE WANT”.

people that enjoy the game and dont come on forum doesnt even know the crit patch changes. i’ve just noticed when a friend whisp and mentioned about it.

be totally honest, i have also complained before when arah got ninja’ed @ alphard. also some rage when projectiles are not block-able by projectile blocking or reflection skills.

there are so many things ingame that doesnt make sense. but meh, sometimes i think its driven by posts like this, complain complain complain.

bring back holy trinity? easier. make gw2 = gw1. even better. wait, i know, lets make it all 1 stat, 100 hp, 1 skill. i hit u 1 damage u hit me 1 damage. no dodging deal?

runeblade.7514:

No. That is not the solution. It will hurt players more than zerkers.

The solution is to fix stacking. Make stacking the least optimal tactic. Why do zerkers stack? Because it creates the highest damage, and it is the safest tactic. If someone goes down, you can res them back up easily.

Remove stacking and then zerkers will not be viable for the average pug. This will also make optimal play less stale and boring. It will make dungeons be about making use of the open space instead of hiding in a corner.

No again.
Stacking has nothing todo with Berserkers gear.

1. Support is pAoE around charakters
2. Ranged dps is lower then melee dps (PVT or Zerk it is the same!)
3. Mobs following a ranged guys costs dps (less from the ranged, and less from the melees following).
Nothing todo with Zerk.
4. All heals and alot of buffs (protection from a guardians hammer), blind from a offhandpistolthief. Can only be provided if mobs and players stack.
5. A LB ranger will not buff the party with frost/earthspirit or spotter and will not get any partybuffs.
Healingspring/Might/other things it does not matter what. Stacking is always superior.

To be max effective u have to stack. Maximum DPS or maximum facetankgruop it does not matter.

Zerker was better even before people begun to stack. Tankgroups stack too.

Aza.2105:

I don’t think this is accurate. If crit damage is itemized like it is in spvp, then the difference between a zerker and non zerker build (who has 30 pts in their crit dmg tree) will be around 20%. Not that big of a difference.

Right now the difference between a non zerker spec with 30pts in their crit dmg tree vs a zerker with 30pts in their crit dmg tree is around 70% crit dmg. Huge huge damage disparity.

You speak as if crit damage was the only source of DPS in gear. Zerk still got more (or at most the same) power and precision combined than any other set in the game.

stof.9341:

You speak as if crit damage was the only source of DPS in gear. Zerk still got more (or at most the same) power and precision combined than any other set in the game.

This isn’t my point. My point is that in spvp stats are evenly distributed. Apparently the value of critical damage is much higher than other stats. While its true that zerker has more power and precision than other sets, it trades other stats such as toughness, healing power, condition damage and vitality to obtain them. The difference in power between a cleric set vs a zerker set in pve is around is a bit over 200, the difference in precision is around 600. But a cleric set has 600 more toughness and 1200 more healing power than a zerk set. So there is a trade in stats.

This type of balance does not exist with critical damage in pve. Like I said though, I do not know for sure if they will itemize the critical damage stat in pve like it is in pvp. Its just my guess.

haviz.1340:

If you match berserker’s and soldier’s against each other and none of the active defense would be used, soldier’s wins by a large margin. I wouldn’t say that passive defense are balanced in that case. It’s obvious that without active defense, passive ones are vastly overpowered.

Actually that is the definition of balance, you take 2 out of multiple options (ill take from starcraft a siege mode tank being a zerker unit and a immortal being a soldier unit), the mathematically superior option should always win by a large margin. then you take the counter option of that unit (id say a knights on crit proc user/rabid condi user, so 7 marines or a muta/air unti) they fall on a scale between marginal efficiency (a numbers/skill game) or hard countering just like the first example.

Aza.2105:

stof.9341:

You speak as if crit damage was the only source of DPS in gear. Zerk still got more (or at most the same) power and precision combined than any other set in the game.

This isn’t my point. My point is that in spvp stats are evenly distributed. Apparently the value of critical damage is much higher than other stats. While its true that zerker has more power and precision than other sets, it trades other stats such as toughness, healing power, condition damage and vitality to obtain them. The difference in power between a cleric set vs a zerker set in pve is around is a bit over 200, the difference in precision is around 600. But a cleric set has 600 more toughness and 1200 more healing power than a zerk set. So there is a trade in stats.

This type of balance does not exist with critical damage in pve. Like I said though, I do not know for sure if they will itemize the critical damage stat in pve like it is in pvp. Its just my guess.

They are indeed more even spread in spvp, which is part of the reason condi and bunker builds run the meta and you don’t see over 9000 full glass zerk 100b warriors (doing well).

The WvW meta is also more tank/condi based with PVT ruling the roost.

What we are going to see is glass cannon not only not being the meta in spvp and WvW, but also getting the shaft and not being the meta in high end pve/dungeons.

builds are actualy more balanced in spvp then they are in pve because stats in pve have been increased. If critical damage in pve is brought closer to Spvp well get something close to an actual balance between class. Glass cannon will stay the meta for player who want maximum damage and can afford not getting hit, the average player however will no longuer run it as much as before. Running the meta will itself be a true proof of skill but will not yield a result as high as to become overwelming for everyone who dont run it (some people should never actualy try to run that build yet they do because its the meta and not running it gets you kicked out, i personnaly run the zerker warrior and guardian meta and im fine with it but what of other class id want to play otherwise?).

kyubi.3620:

builds are actualy more balanced in spvp then they are in pve because stats in pve have been increased. If critical damage in pve is brought closer to Spvp well get something close to an actual balance between class.

Well no, it’s not really and no it probably won’t.

as alot of people say. stacking really isnt becuase its of being zerker or soldiers.

lets take ele as an example to blast might 18 stacks and fury 1 minute. u need to be in a radius to get the buff. stacking means you gurantee get that buff but if u are spread you dont get anything.

same as wvw when u run pvt or clerics, why do you stack on a guardian staff 3 skill?
to get the buff. outside it u get nothing.

the issue atm is a no issue, with that being said, reason why people ask for stacking is because of the active effects on skills. say blind from thiefs, blackpowder or smokescreen, if you are away from the field, the mobs chases you, they will not get blind becuase they are not on the field.

or say wvw might stacking, if you dont stack, u dont get rats kitten because the buff cannot reach you.

now, what is there to do with berserkers at all?

learning to play is an issue, not the game.

im not so sure about spvp since i really dont give a rats kitten with it. but meh, why blame zerkers when you dont understand the reason for stacking?

does running around like a headless chicken do any good? lets just take a simple dungeon like CM for example, or WvW and those condi spams.

CM mobs deal 6 stacks of bleed per swing, easily stack 25 stack of bleed on you, some mobs shoot scattered shot that deals around 1/4 of your pvt hp.

now, you dont wanna stack, you dont wanna reflect, u like it hard, u want to face tank without skills or learning how to use what you have existing. why blame zerkers? because they know how to use certain skills to stop taking damage?

or say even in WvW, u think you can, solo a group of 40 man zerg? or 80 man zerg? without dying just spamming 1? alone?

the game actually works pretty well if you actually know how to play your class efficiently.

theifs are blessed with blind, stealth.

guardians are blessed with aegis, and boons.

warriors are blessed with healing and their hp pool and CC

rangers are blessed with their range and pet and healfields etc

mesmers are blessed with reflection and clones

etc etc. all classes have their pro and cons, regardless of being zerker or not, its a L2P issue not a broken game issue.

also if u dont know why people ask for 5k ap 9k ap 10k ap for group. reason is quite simple, frankly people with that amount of AP understands how to play their classes, knows what to do when things go sour, CAN and KNOW how to do things right. well some suck but yea, most do know their thing.

people looking for that AP range players want things to go smooth, without issues. they dont mind carrying an odd newbie or 2, but sometimes problems arise when they do not listen and pretty much wreck everyone else.

most of the time players with 8k+ ap or so have their own group of people they do dungeons with or do wvw with, they only lfg 1 more when someone cant come online or so. some even just 4man or 3 man a dungeon. etc.

doesnt matter how hard u ask for a nerf, people still wont want you in a group regardless if ure PVT or zerker when you tend to kill your whole team by being a hero rushing in first or dont know what to do.

learn to play before asking for nerf hammer.

am i speaking the truth? idk. waiting on peoples comments.

you can f me all you want, but thats what i think.

It is from an actual damage + skill / reward point of view, ive seen very glassy player actualy faceroll the hell out of non glass cannon because they actualy know how to play. You may hate on condition user fenrir but it aint like youl need more then one for maximised condition effectiveness so zerker will still be king in mather of direct damage effectiveness in pve nonetheless.

People wich are skilled and run glass cannon gets rewarded by dealing better damage then hybrid tanks who needs more survivability and you have only 1 conditionmancer per party, it totaly make sense. What is a total nonsense if for people who cant run these build to actualy run them anyway because its so rewarding even the dead noobs get to be more usefull then the alive players who run something else (god save us from bad zerker user).

I run zerk warrior and guardian this doesnt mean i want to run zerk on everything else.

NoTrigger.8396:

ok and running tank/healing power requires more skill or what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

low-skill cap is because arenanet doesnt deliver any difficult and challenging content.
not because of the berserker gear and berserker stats.

and compared to berserker, other gear doesnt require any skill at all.

Nothing is a challenge if faced with cooperation and preparation, also yes currently non zerker builds do take more skill because you take more kitten in yo face and dont skip/cheat out of more than half the existing mechanics of a fight.

Getting AP is hard when youve been offline for several months so eh, i played since day one and im curently at 4800 because i skipped about 8 game month as well as all the daily opportunity that came with it (stopped chrismas 2012 and restarted september 2013, thx god i missed the whole scarlet junk) Guess ill have to work realy kitten dailies to cope for it but eh deal with it as they say.

There will always be elitism in the game but by limiting the actual impact the critical damage gearset has on party we can actualy get to use more varied builds.

Fenrir.3609:

They are indeed more even spread in spvp, which is part of the reason condi and bunker builds run the meta and you don’t see over 9000 full glass zerk 100b warriors (doing well).

The WvW meta is also more tank/condi based with PVT ruling the roost.

What we are going to see is glass cannon not only not being the meta in spvp and WvW, but also getting the shaft and not being the meta in high end pve/dungeons.

From the perspective of stat allocation, pvt is fine. It has power, vitality and toughness but nothing else. The reason why its commonly used is because of the objective of zergs, which is to outlive the other zerg. Pvt is the stats that helps achieve this goal.

Crit damage in pve has a entirely different problem, again from the perspective of stat allocation its out of line. You can see this with the disproportionate damage figures in wvw. 8-14k backstabs and kill shots are common in wvw, so what is the reaction to this? To wear the gear that gives the most survivability. Hence the pvt meta. If survivability was possible without wearing it then it wouldn’t be as common.

With a possible critical damage nerf, what could happen is once players figure out they can survive high damage without being pvt then they will move to other gear types.

kyubi.3620:

It is from an actual damage + skill / reward point of view, ive seen very glassy player actualy faceroll the hell out of non glass cannon because they actualy know how to play. You may hate on condition user fenrir but it aint like youl need more then one for maximised condition effectiveness so zerker will still be king in mather of direct damage effectiveness in pve nonetheless.

People wich are skilled and run glass cannon gets rewarded by dealing better damage then hybrid tanks who needs more survivability and you have only 1 conditionmancer per party, it totaly make sense.

I don’t hate condi users, I don’t hate PVT users and I don’t hate bunkers. I run or have run all of the above as well as zerk. I actually don’t agree with nerfs in general and am simply pointing out the hypocritical nature of the “zomg nerf zerk camp”.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make about skill, but it seems somewhat ironic given the state of affairs at the moment. A skilled player can no doubt faceroll a scrub without using half his traits and wearing only three pieces of armour. So what?

The fact of the matter is, non zerk set ups are the current meta (for the main) in both spvp and WvW as well as being more than viable in pve. If you think it is a reasonable state of affairs for zerk to get the shaft due to it being the dungeon speed run pve meta whilst it’s fine and dandy for PVT to run WvW and condi/bunkers to run spvp, then that is somewhat strange to say the least.

Any issue with regards to a lack of diversity in pve is down to the mechanics, it has been pointed out numerous times and even some of those actively asking for a change to the zerk meta have pointed this out (and are now dissapointed at the mention of a simple stat nerf).

Nerfing a zerk stat is either going to -

Simply going to keep the zerk meta as it is still the highest dps and just slow people down a bit.

Or, increase the hegemony in the game and we will see condi/pvt dominating pve as well as spvp and WvW.

If anyone thinks a stat nerf is going to suddenly see a wealth of diversity and an end to elite speed run groups and gear pings. Well they are in for a shock.

stof.9341:

Nerfing Critical damage won’t prevent a DPS oriented meta. And even if your rampager gear does more DPS than a zerk user, you’ll still be unwanted past the first party slot since your DPS doesn’t stack with other rampager users.

No well, ofc it won’t. But I think given the compounding effect of Power, Precision and Prowess, it’s really helpful to nerf crits a bit to facilitate a more balanced stat choice setup.

kyubi.3620:

Getting AP is hard when youve been offline for several months so eh, i played since day one and im curently at 4800 because i skipped about 8 game month as well as all the daily opportunity that came with it (stopped chrismas 2012 and restarted september 2013, thx god i missed the whole scarlet junk) Guess ill have to work realy kitten dailies to cope for it but eh deal with it as they say.

There will always be elitism in the game but by limiting the actual impact the critical damage gearset has on party we can actualy get to use more varied builds.

eh no offences to those with less AP. what im trying to say is, some people just want a smooth run and do it with people that they know and are sure that can do it.

ive seen 1k ap dudes, heck even 800 ap dude do better than a 15k ap dude. but still, my point is, when lfg u see dem posts, its because they want it done fast. with no issues.

nobody wants do do a 3 hour ac path 1 run, do you?

Boyd.5438:

kyubi.3620:

Getting AP is hard when youve been offline for several months so eh, i played since day one and im curently at 4800 because i skipped about 8 game month as well as all the daily opportunity that came with it (stopped chrismas 2012 and restarted september 2013, thx god i missed the whole scarlet junk) Guess ill have to work realy kitten dailies to cope for it but eh deal with it as they say.

There will always be elitism in the game but by limiting the actual impact the critical damage gearset has on party we can actualy get to use more varied builds.

eh no offences to those with less AP. what im trying to say is, some people just want a smooth run and do it with people that they know and are sure that can do it.

ive seen 1k ap dudes, heck even 800 ap dude do better than a 15k ap dude. but still, my point is, when lfg u see dem posts, its because they want it done fast. with no issues.

nobody wants do do a 3 hour ac path 1 run, do you?

Indeed nobody does but maxing effectiveness shouldnt mean running 5 time the same thing without any room for variation. I just happen to love doing end game content with class and spec wich arent so much oriented on physical damage and it just happen that if condition damage was actualy viable damagewise versus zerker id likely be able to run at least 3 defrent new build per class starting with ranger wich is more of a condition dominated class then a physical class (cmon you looking for excuses when your down to running sword auto attack as your main source of damage). Just because you run condition doesnt meant you aint as glassy as a zerker, lots of player base their condition damage on critical proc and this result into rampager behing the runned gear, rampager is the second most glassyest gearset in the game next to zerker and assasin.

I just would like to add a little something.

I read the OP, i understand many point but for me, instead of the berserker nerf, they should review other stats instead ( or somes gameplay mecanic )

Maybe they should ask themself WHY ppl prefer use a classic direct damage strat, instead of : "hey, everyone use that, lets nerf that to make look others pointless “strat” interesting"

• Dungeon strat : mob with 5millions hp, where most of “control” skill are finaly not helpfull at all, like somes control – disable tactic was in GW1.
  Result ? only left direct damage or condi damage and dodge to avoid be one shooted.
  Is that interesting to do that during 1h ? i dont think so.

• Preview point can be apply to 99% of the pve.

• About “pvp”, except the rares stun, knock back and knock down, teleport to evade nearly the same things, most of “control” condition are pointless, so only left again : direct damage, because condition have cleaner + its long to start killing.

Anyway, instead of doing a “easy” nerf, they should review MANY mecanics side, that just doesnt work as intended
Or just clearly doesnt offer as deepness as the GW1 gameplay was offering.

Andele.1306:

NoTrigger.8396:

ok and running tank/healing power requires more skill or what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

low-skill cap is because arenanet doesnt deliver any difficult and challenging content.
not because of the berserker gear and berserker stats.

and compared to berserker, other gear doesnt require any skill at all.

Nothing is a challenge if faced with cooperation and preparation, also yes currently non zerker builds do take more skill because you take more kitten in yo face and dont skip/cheat out of more than half the existing mechanics of a fight.

There was no preparation or coordination in that run. And we specifically allowed lupi to do all attacks on us because we had dodged turned off and made sure to not stand at specific ranges to prevent bubble/rapidfire.

It takes more skill when everything 1 or 2 shots you, missing a dodge or active defense causes serious problems. Whereas strolling in tanky gear is completely faceroll as you can see. Im honestly baffled how people manage to die with tanky gear especially as they also have dodges.

downgrading the zerk damage force for longuer fight. Lots of fight might not go so smootly with the lack of actual direct control because zerker was relying on dps to make thing easy (what cant hurt you cant kill you, you might as well say that offanse is the best defence) without that dps to rely on theyl have to rely more and more on control and support to stay alive, this indeed opens a door to other spec wich will likely do those job better then a full damage character.

Proven.2854:

But as it is the current meta for PvE is degenerative.

This is one of those statements that should require massive amounts of evidence before people accept it, but clearly you take it as somehow self-evident.

The current meta for PVE is working perfectly. Give a complete noob a set of zerker gear and send him into Arah p1 for the first time. See if he can even make it to the champ entities. Give him full tank gear, he might actually make it. The entire concept, as I have described elsewhere, is that in PvE you take as much defensive gear as you need to survive… and no more. This system is working exactly as intended.

The problem is that the content is old and on farm. There are good tactics for every dungeon and fractal and even bad players have done the content enough that they don’t need the tanky gear anymore. This isn’t because Zerker gear is magically turning them into good players. It’s because even bad players can learn content given a long enough amount of time.

If an xpac dropped tomorrow, with 5 new dungeons/elite zones with many bosses that had good and unique lupicus style mechanics, all the bad players who currently get away with zerker would go back to faceplanting regularly and nobody would argue that Zerker is too powerful.

It really does bother me that people are treating this as a gear problem when it’s so obviously a content problem. It really does bother me that the devs are treating it as a gear problem, most likely because it’s easier for them to deal with a gear problem and not a content problem.

If there is any problem now, its that there is a barrier of entry for new players who are expected to run zerker in pugs but haven’t had the year+ of time to learn the encounters. Those players do need time to learn and they should be using tanky gear if needed but they are put off because they are late to the game. If they were joining the game right at the release of a new xpac as I described it would be much less of a problem.

But again, that points to a content problem.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

The problem is that the content is old and on farm. There are good tactics for every dungeon and fractal and even bad players have done the content enough that they don’t need the tanky gear anymore. This isn’t because Zerker gear is magically turning them into good players. It’s because even bad players can learn content given a long enough amount of time.

If an xpac dropped tomorrow, with 5 new dungeons/elite zones with many bosses that had good and unique lupicus style mechanics, all the bad players who currently get away with zerker would go back to faceplanting regularly and nobody would argue that Zerker is too powerful.

This x1000. People are complaining for the wrong reasons.

I hope Anet doesn’t go through with any nerfs to crit damage or zerker gear. That would just be the lazy way to appease the masses crying for change, when the real change needs to be in adding content to the kitten game. No more LS, but give us more dungeons.(InB4 more scarlet dungeons that no one runs….)

What if we did something radical….

What if stats on Armour were removed? Keep trinkets and keep stats on weapons, But what if the main stat numbers were on the trait lines. What would people do then? Would people favour shooting for an optimal trait on a toughness line or going into the power or precision lines for the stats?

That would then of course help role diversification. An Elementalist would then have to decide between going into to Arcana for all the tricks and traits and attunement recharge and water for Shared Aura and other support and party skills or would it go into the fire line for the raw damage and the damage focused traits that maybe wouldn’t help the party as much. Of course he could go 30 Water for shared aura and then air for fury and swiftness on auras but he would therefore cause a reduction in his damage.

Alexwalsham.2648:

What if we did something radical….

What if stats on Armour were removed? Keep trinkets and keep stats on weapons, But what if the main stat numbers were on the trait lines. What would people do then? Would people favour shooting for an optimal trait on a toughness line or going into the power or precision lines for the stats?

That would then of course help role diversification. An Elementalist would then have to decide between going into to Arcana for all the tricks and traits and attunement recharge and water for Shared Aura and other support and party skills or would it go into the fire line for the raw damage and the damage focused traits that maybe wouldn’t help the party as much. Of course he could go 30 Water for shared aura and then air for fury and swiftness on auras but he would therefore cause a reduction in his damage.

Then when the meta for each class only contains one build, you will really see the tears starting. People will always complain, I just hope Anet doesn’t screw up the game by going full reetard.

Alexwalsham.2648:

What if we did something radical….

What if stats on Armour were removed? Keep trinkets and keep stats on weapons, But what if the main stat numbers were on the trait lines. What would people do then? Would people favour shooting for an optimal trait on a toughness line or going into the power or precision lines for the stats?

Most stats are on the trinkets and weapon already. Armor itself is comparatively low. Going radical would be plain removing combat stat boosts on gear. Now THAT would be great.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Proven.2854:

But as it is the current meta for PvE is degenerative.

This is one of those statements that should require massive amounts of evidence before people accept it, but clearly you take it as somehow self-evident.

The current meta for PVE is working perfectly. Give a complete noob a set of zerker gear and send him into Arah p1 for the first time. See if he can even make it to the champ entities. Give him full tank gear, he might actually make it. The entire concept, as I have described elsewhere, is that in PvE you take as much defensive gear as you need to survive… and no more. This system is working exactly as intended.

Personally, I think it really boils down to what one considers enjoyable and fun in combat.

I think people from the side of keeping the current DPS meta really truly enjoy the high risk / high skill but very high reward feeling of it. Currently It’s true that you take as much defensive gear as you need, and if you’ve gotten really experienced and feel you’ve reached a high skill level within the game, you no longer need any defensive stats. In this situation your reward for being really good is that you get to put out more DPS than anyone else (and why shouldn’t it be?). Once it was discovered that all DPS on all players in the party is one of the most optimal ways to run through content, it is what everyone started running, (which again, why shouldn’t they?). In this scenario, if everyone in your group is extremely skilled and running full zerker because of it, you are rewarded with very fast rewards for such skilled play.

I think people from the side of changing the DPS meta really enjoy the idea of filling specific roles that optimize the ability to progress through content. Filling specific roles other than DPS can be very fulfilling if they really do significantly add to the effectiveness of the party — and I think this is what people from this standpoint desire. I think the reason people desire this is it lets them feel niche — it lets them feel unique, and like they bring something unique to the table. Professions certainly help with the unique feeling, but a lot of effects that professions can provide can overlap via utilities and other abilities. In the current meta, I don’t think many people get the feeling of being “Niche”, because if you’re running anything other than DPS, you are sub-optimal. If in the opinion of the player, this is what makes combat fun, what’s wrong with that?

I will admit that I am on the side of changing the DPS meta for the reasons above. I also will admit that I can see why people don’t want to change the DPS meta. My personal opinion is just that the all DPS meta is boring. As stated in the beginning, it boils down to personal preference. I like feeling like I fulfill a specific roll, like I the option to bring something unique to the table (and not just something unique mind you, something that is unique and really adds to the effectiveness of the group). To provide an example, one of my favorite classes in EQ/EQ2 is the Bard or the Enchanter. They don’t do the most DPS, they don’t do a lot of healing, and overall by themselves they can be underwhelming — but they bring something so unique to the table and because of it they really enhance the group as a whole.

I know a lot of people would likely respond to the idea of wanting to feel niche by saying that maybe this isn’t the game for me, and if I want that feeling to go play a game with a classic trinity. The thought has crossed my mind, and I have entertained the thought that maybe the game really isn’t for me — and there’s nothing wrong with that I’ve gotten more than enough play hours out of it, and I’ve loved playing the game. Talks of possibly re-doing the DPS meta have got me interested in playing regularly again.

There’s so much condescension and insult throwing in this thread.

So if the DPS meta changes and you don’t like it, what’s wrong with admitting that maybe the game is no longer what you thought it would be an move on to a different game? Furthermore, if the DPS meta stays the same, what’s wrong with saying the game isn’t what you thought it would be and move on to a different game?

We can all argue over what kind of game the devs want Guild Wars 2 to be, or argue semantics over what they meant in their manifesto, but none of us are devs, so really, what’s the point of arguing about it?

Mixchimmer.7230:

[snip]

In order for the meta to change, they must completely rework encounters with the AI. The AI must be smart, and punish players more. Anet would have to do a ton of work.

Instead, it seems they are just going to nerf some stats, and some gear, which will fix nothing. The gameplay will still be, kill everything as fast as you can. It will just be up to us to figure out what gear does it the best, which probably still be zerker unless they hit it so hard conditions become relevant. Either way, its still a dps race.

Most who are arguing against changing anything, already knows anet won’t do the necessary steps to properly shift things, since it would require a whole rework of all encounters, and all PVE mobs. Nerfing zerker won’t change the meta, it will still be kill stuff as fast as you can and learn 2: dodge, reflect, block and blind.