Guild Wars 2

when playing guild wars 2 , do you feel that with your class that you play the way you like to in order to win in all elements of the game

or

with your class you are simply going by the " META " with how there is some pigeon-holing going on ?

i ask this because to me it seems that pigeonholing is what is being demanded from each and every one of us as players , may it be cheap or takes everything in our style of play that we can’t just simply do what ever we want to do in order to win ..

what i have noticed over the years is a common theme and that could be because of what arena net had in mind for each class as they were describing them for practical use

saying which classes were easy to play vs those that have more of a learning curve

Absolutely pigeon-holed. Strictly speaking, there are optimal ways of building any given character which exceed far beyond the rest of the combinations. This is often due to “dependency” traits/utility skills. I’ll say it straight up, too: Conditions don’t help this case, and are part of the reason why this game will never achieve a state where all builds and classes are equally viable unless every combination results in a sustaining amount of condition removal.

It’s also heavily fueled by the blatant discrepancies between sigils/runes. All of them should fetch similar prices or prices based upon rarity vs demand by how many people prefer the given style associated with certain runes and sigils. This isn’t the case currently because only a few select are even considered. There are some which some people have never even heard of because they’ve just remained worse on all levels than other given sets.

There are also balatant imbalances between gear combinations. Sets like Assassin’s are just strictly worse than Berserker’s, and with boon-stacking being so important in the meta, often times builds are able to just totally ignore what gear they should be using because they can compensate entirely for it by stacking boons. Boons fill holes in builds rather than augmenting new ones. I’d like to see buffs like Protection and Might turn into ones which better scale with builds rather than filling holes, such as nerfing their base effects and giving them additional ones, such as giving protection a scaling effect based upon toughness, and making might primarily a damage modifier such that DPS builds benefit from it proportionally. This turns boons into build augments which can fill small holes, but not just let a full tank deal as much damage as a full DPS because it has boon access.

This is the reason I like solo roaming. When I go to PvP or when I used to go around with a guild I felt very much I had to choose the meta builds because there are other people depending on me and expecting things from me, and frankly it’s out of order to go into a team environment and expect your team to put up with you messing about of some strange build because you think it’s fun. That’s not what team play means and if that’s what you want to do you shouldn’t be in a team environment or should have a team of friends who have agreed to you doing it.

In solo roaming though, noone depends on me and noone is expecting me to fill a certain role. I am free to make any crazy build I like and as long as I can make it work for me that’s all that matters.

So… Generally I do feel pigeonholed in team environments, but when going solo or duelling I feel there is a lot more scope to find what works for you rather than trying to fit a certain role.

In most cases in solo roaming, though, experimental builds do not work, and you are often still pigeon-holed into building -condition food because of the insanity of the condition meta we’re in, truly also inhibiting build diversity.

This discussion again… dunno whether to facepalm or to grab some popcorn…
Anyway, I’ll throw a bone:

“Efficiency” and Don’t be a burden on purpose within a group/team – these are the reason “meta” builds exist… You can feel pigeonholed, and try to fight it all you want, but there is just a simple thing within this or any other competitive game with builds that have a more efficient way of combatting… From Trading Card Games to Real Time Strategy games… So whatever Anet does to balance things – there will always be just a small window of things to pick since there is the “Rule of Efficiency”

Edit:

Believe it or not, Pokémon has a meta…

It has to do largely with the complexity they’ve created, though. The meta builds are taken for reasons because their exclusive usefulness relative to other classes/builds is far better.

I’m not disputing that players will not choose the most efficient method. I actually said this exact same thing in my thread regarding why Ferocity was a failure before it was released (since it changed nothing regarding dungeon compositions as it was intended to and only increased toxicity while nerfing the effective yield of berserker’s damage per health which is already lower than PTV). I’m not also arguing against class compositions. The only way to incorporate other classes into a universal meta is make them all the same. Now, I’m not saying that some classes should not have their uses, either; just perhaps different areas of expertise across all modes. What I do believe, however, is that multiple build options within a class should be viable, even if these translate to different game modes and styles, and that this community is far too toxic about its meta strategies because simply put, the meta builds are just way too good relative to the rest.

One example being that I was recently kicked from a PvX guild, as were several other very old or even founding members, on the basis that we did not main classes/builds directly assigned to us by the guild leader for WvW. ANet talks about the NPE and player retention being a critical part of the game’s success, and my professional research in this industry makes me agree with them (though their execution of the NPE was poor but that’s another topic). With this said, toxicity in the community stemming from the meta being way too rigid with zero room for fluidity is ANet’s own fault by failing to make the game deliver on their promises of diversity, and has lead to many people just leaving the game. Yes, players are going to try to build most-optimally, but that does not excuse an absolutely abysmal balancing/role systems job where most specs are considered so non-viable that it leads to players not playing alongside their friends.

Before I give my opinion I’ll give a little context. I don’t usually do sPvP, and when I do I don’t use my regular setup. When I do dungeons I wing it with a small group who are not interested in speed and I spend most of my play time pulling off small objectives in WvW.

I play a bunker warrior. It has some offense, but the build is focused on defense. I run sword/shield and sword/sword with sigils of hydromancy, sigils of ice, and runes of ice.

In PvE I use my CC (chill, cripple, immobilize, stun, knockback) and my ability to soak damage to attempt to control whatever I’m fighting so that others have an easier time dealing damage. It doesn’t always work, but in a dynamic fight the only thing that always works is experience.

I would be surprised if a single person on these forums thinks my build is good, or even decent. In small group situations (dungeons) where everyone has to carry their own weight my build is a hindrance if you are focusing on how fast you can complete the area.

Now, I never feel like I am a burden to my team. This is because I surround myself with people who understand and accept what I am attempting to do with my build and are willing to play to the strengths of our team, instead of having the team adapt to a particular strategy. The meta is a strategy people adapt to, and it works due to it’s very nature, but it is simply the most optimal way of doing things currently. A team with builds that, on paper, should be utterly useless can win and carry a fight, particularly in PvP, simply because they are unexpected. I saw this happen a few times in GW1, where the meta went along it’s merry way only to be blindsided by something completely new that, according to the understanding of the game at the time, should not have worked.

Some may argue my presence at events like Tequatl makes things more difficult, but I focus on turret defense and can hold off an entire wave by myself if needed. I will need assistance in killing the wave, but if the other turret defenders are busy I can keep the spawns in check. I find the places where my preferred playstyle works, and I ignore everyone who’s opinion on the topic goes against my experiences in game.

My advice to you is if you feel like you are being forced into a role you do not enjoy you should find new people to play with. Don’t necessarily get rid of the old people, just find some new ones. The meta exists because players created it, and if you surround yourself with the right people you can enjoy every inch of this game without the meta being involved at all.

I’ve always just run what I enjoy playing, and sometimes it matches up with some aspects of the meta, but usually not. I went from a shout/condition warrior to a shaman/minion master necromancer to a berserker ranger (a long time ago, before this recent update) to a flamethrower engineer, to my celestial staff elementalist, which I’ve been using since before the buff to celestial stats, and I use diamond skin. I used to get harassed for not running the meta in some of my guilds, who blatantly told me that if I ran anything other than the meta I was nothing but a hindrance to my group, but I just left those guilds and found other friendlier guilds to join.

To me, it doesn’t feel like the game itself pigeon-holes us into a certain playstyle, but the players do in some situations. You can get around that by just finding people like yourself who aren’t meta-mongers to play with though.

I play as I want. It work better then you might think. Most of the sheeple who regurgitate all the meta beliefs become baffled and do not have the skill or knowledge to handle anything outside the box.

The core problem I see is that meta builds are too far ahead of the alternatives. There’s always going to be a meta, but when everything is so far apart it makes players feel forced to run those meta builds.

I’m sure most people wouldn’t mind if someone ran a build that was slightly less effective than the meta, but what we see is a single change in a build deeply cutting its effectiveness with the top builds being over 5 times stronger than the weaker ones.

For example, its mandatory for effective play to run spotter and frost spirit on a ranger in dungeons. No alternatives begin to complete with the 35% damage and 750 precision they give.

Bri.8354:

The core problem I see is that meta builds are too far ahead of the alternatives. There’s always going to be a meta, but when everything is so far apart it makes players feel forced to run those meta builds.

I’m sure most people wouldn’t mind if someone ran a build that was slightly less effective than the meta, but what we see is a single change in a build deeply cutting its effectiveness with the top builds being over 5 times stronger than the weaker ones.

For example, its mandatory for effective play to run spotter and frost spirit on a ranger in dungeons. No alternatives begin to complete with the 35% damage and 750 precision they give.

This “issue” has existed now for ages as well sadly, and with the balancing approach of Anet (Shave only what is popular every 6 months), you’d not see it changed much, or at all…

PvE is so much dumbed down that roles are simply “DPS increase” and “Reflections” – anything else is (almost) not needed (to some extend)… This is as much an issue with a lackluster of traits/utilities, as well as most encounters being extremely simplefied…

I know from my “experience” on most, if not all classes, that there are a plethora of builds to be made, but non of them can work as good as the “meta” as you indeed say in your message… Sadly, this will not see a change any time soon, and the best we can hope for is new gamemodes/encounters to encourage build diversity…

Luckily for me, mesmer is one of the most free-meta professions. It only matters to bring the key skills, then nobody ask you for anything else.

It’s already said, main problem is meta builds are far beyond than alternatives in competitive areas: PvP, wvw raids, speed-run pve… There, meta builds outshine alternatives by a lot, and bringing what you would like can only mean pretty much all the effectiveness.

Also, people is so narrow-minded about meta builds, they thing that anything outside that doesn’t work, or it is lame . You still see people QQ about your build elsewhere (roaming, open pve, pug zergs…).
Today I’ve been told a noob for playing a bunker shatter build with perma might for roaming, that actually worked pretty well.

I play what I like and I do pretty well with it. I win more than half of my 1v1 encounters and never feel like I’m hurting my team in team fights because the builds I design are made with whatever role I intend to play in mind, which includes team support. There’s also a fairly big advantage to not running a meta set up, and that is most opponents you run into won’t immediately know how to go about fighting you.

More than a few times I’ve been on my beastmaster ranger and my opponent IMMEDIATELY dives for cover and hides there, trying to bait me in close to engage as if I were a zerker longbow ranger. Unfortunately because they are stationary that just lets my pet rip them to shreds. I run into a pretty similar situation with thieves who waist their burst on my 2.8K armored hide in a team fight, only to get hit by Sick ’Em and downed almost immediately.

Non-meta builds might not be as efficient as meta builds, but there’s something to be said for playing in an unorthodox style.

Pretty much pigeonholed here. There is a little of variation but not what I would call build diversity.

In terms of pvp or wvw meta builds have huge weaknes that being a fact that those builds are all over the forums for people to see, everyone know all pros and cons of every meta build so they can deal with them with ease.
When meta build user face non-meta build the winner is usualy non-meta user since its weaknes are unknown while the meta one are apparent.

I myself only go with my own creations, non-meta builds, since its more fun to bet on a wild card than on a top horse.

DeceiverX.8361:

In most cases in solo roaming, though, experimental builds do not work, and you are often still pigeon-holed into building -condition food because of the insanity of the condition meta we’re in, truly also inhibiting build diversity.

Def not true when it comes to solo roaming in wvw or even sq for that matter.

I am amazed at the lack of viable builds for each class. Most classes have 1 or 2 builds and only small variations on each that work.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

This discussion again… dunno whether to facepalm or to grab some popcorn…
Anyway, I’ll throw a bone:

“Efficiency” and Don’t be a burden on purpose within a group/team – these are the reason “meta” builds exist… You can feel pigeonholed, and try to fight it all you want, but there is just a simple thing within this or any other competitive game with builds that have a more efficient way of combatting… From Trading Card Games to Real Time Strategy games… So whatever Anet does to balance things – there will always be just a small window of things to pick since there is the “Rule of Efficiency”

Edit:

Believe it or not, Pokémon has a meta…

This basically.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

This discussion again… dunno whether to facepalm or to grab some popcorn…
Anyway, I’ll throw a bone:

“Efficiency” and Don’t be a burden on purpose within a group/team – these are the reason “meta” builds exist… You can feel pigeonholed, and try to fight it all you want, but there is just a simple thing within this or any other competitive game with builds that have a more efficient way of combatting… From Trading Card Games to Real Time Strategy games… So whatever Anet does to balance things – there will always be just a small window of things to pick since there is the “Rule of Efficiency”

Edit:

Believe it or not, Pokémon has a meta…

Plus given how many options/combinations there are in this game (weapon skills locked…) it becomes even more apparent how few meta-builds there are.

Zero Day.2594:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

This discussion again… dunno whether to facepalm or to grab some popcorn…
Anyway, I’ll throw a bone:

“Efficiency” and Don’t be a burden on purpose within a group/team – these are the reason “meta” builds exist… You can feel pigeonholed, and try to fight it all you want, but there is just a simple thing within this or any other competitive game with builds that have a more efficient way of combatting… From Trading Card Games to Real Time Strategy games… So whatever Anet does to balance things – there will always be just a small window of things to pick since there is the “Rule of Efficiency”

Edit:

Believe it or not, Pokémon has a meta…

Plus given how many options/combinations there are in this game (weapon skills locked…) it becomes even more apparent how few meta-builds there are.

Well yea, but it has also to do with the depth of gameplay and the gamemodes available…

For instance, the first Tri-Worm events required specific groups of specific builds (These included condition build which are regarded bad in PvE in general) – if you build a system with certain mechanics which require certain builds to be handled, you force diversity…

Flipside of this is of course that you still force people to run certain specs for certain areas of the game… I.E, Dungeon Warrior does simply not work in PvP since it is another cookie which needs to be digested differently, so you still need to respec…

And well yea… there are also a lot of lackluster build options (Thief traps are laughable at best), and overpeforming build options (PvP Warrior Longbow says hi)…
There was a suggestion not long ago to make underused utilities simply overpeforming as well, just to see what happens… to be frank, I’d like that idea – creating controlled chaos and see what is healthy in the name of build diversity…

My wife plays a tank staff guardian, and hasn’t used any other weapon since that character’s creation. She plays a more meta thief but nobody’s going to convince her to use a different weapon and nobody’s going to convince her not to try and be immortal.

She gets crap for it, but she absolutely loves her character and being able to face-tank world bosses and really just anything else. All of her other characters get killed pretty quickly in the halloween event and her Guardian can sit in the middle spamming auto attack and never dying.

She has fun with it. I’ve grown to like it because it gives my characters tons of might and I know regardless of whether or not I go down she’ll be alive to save my tail.

If we played sPvP she would bunker and it’d be fine- we do play WvW and we roam and it’s fine. Our guildies that play with us are okay with it.

Play what you like. If you want to play something that’s not meta, just understand that it’s sub-optimal and enjoy it anyway. If you want to be competitive, than understand that the meta is built for competitive-style play and you will want to optimize everything.