Guild Wars 2

Zenguy.6421:

Wanze.8410:

@Zenguy,

Maybe I am overseeing something or I dnt have a clear understanding of your proposal but I think this would easily be exploitable. Maybe try to explain a bit more in detail, how automated trading from Anet would work (how big are over/undercuts?).

Short example of a way of exploiting:

Item A cost 100g at lowest listing and 85g highest bid (because the Bot goes for the 15% spread). Lets assume, there are 10 more Item A listed, one each at 110g, 120g, 130g,…..up until 200g.

Now i buy out all 10 items valued from 100g-190g and the nlowest listing is 200g and the highest bid is still 85g. The bot would place a buy offer at 170g (85% of 200g), which i am happy to sell to and make a nice profit. Now Anet has an Item A, which it needs to sell, as it thrives for 15% pricespread, it will list it again at 100g, which I instantly buy again and to sell Anets new buy offer of 170g.

Rinse and Repeat.

Wanze, you’ve assumed a very dumb bot that is programmed to place buy offers 15% below the highest buy price. Why would someone programme it that way?

Far better for Anet to programme their bots to incrementally close buy and sell prices.

Taking your example: Item A cost 100g at lowest listing and 85g highest bid (because the Bot goes for the 15% spread). Lets assume, there are 10 more Item A listed, one each at 110g, 120g, 130g,…..up until 200g. You buy out all 10 items valued from 100g-190g leaving the lowest listing at 200g and the highest bid at 85g. You now have 10 items at a cost of 1450g or 145g each.

This is low volume turnover item, so lets assume the bot closes the margin in larger increments than normal – say 30% steps for this item. Bot places a buy orders at 130g and waits to get an item. The first one it gets it places on the market at 179g. If no one places a new buy order above 100g the bot replaces it’s buy order at 124g (30% of the difference between the highest buy 100g and lowest sell 179g prices), and the process continues.

How are you going to exploit that profitably?
By placing your own buy orders to inflate the buying price? That’s exactly what the bot wants you to do. (Don’t forget, in your scenario you have spent 1450g on stock that will only return a profit if you sell if for over 170g average.)

Of course I assumed a very dumb bot because I am a very dumb bot programmer, I never done it.
Its a little far fetched to think that I know what kind of trading bot you are assuming and in which parameters it operates.
You make a good point, though, and it would require me to do a bit of thinking about it. But as it is a little off topic, i would also ask you to make a different post about it, if you want to discuss it further.

At some point this week, I want to summarize this topic and list all the pro´s and cons.
Not primarily for lazy readers or Anets attention but for myself, to make up my mind about it after all the great constructive (positive and negative) feedback. The more off topic discussion is in here, the longer that will take for me.

I need my karma for lagendary.
i want gold tax than karma tax.

Didn’t read the entire thread so someone might have mentioned it, but here’s my guess on what happens if this is implemented:

• Regular flippers will be unable to flip “enough”.
• Less gold will leave the economy because of the fee sink, causing inflation.
• Margins will become more apparent…
• …leading to more regular players choosing flipping as their source of income.

Without real numbers, it’s hard to guess on what it will lead to in the end, but probably one of these two options:

• Inflation will get higher because there would be not enough flippers willing to flip “just a bit”, as TP barons may just leave at all if they weren’t interesting in playing in the first place.
• Current inflation rates will remain, but more people who were players with limited time will be turned into flippers, and gold will simply be redistributed in smaller portions to more people.

I’d say that neither of these two situations look healthier to me than what we have now.

Nah. Just put a cooldown on reselling. You buy an item, you can’t sell it back right away. Buy to use or to save for later.

Wanze maybe you should edit the topic name so people stop saying you want to use the normal karma… gosh.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Wanze maybe you should edit the topic name so people stop saying you want to use the normal karma… gosh.

And maybe add some updating comments to the original post, since so many don’t read the thread. They read the first post then rush to comment.

Thanks for the elaboration Wanze.

It would limit buy order volume to the amount of white karma gained. So flipping short term becomes less attractive unless you hoard white karma which is a lot of time invested over a short period of time in game, great. However this is looking quite interesting, as long as you only pay the karma tax on pick up you can just place buy orders and basically use the time you will need until you can pick it up for the prices to rise while you play the game. which you do with sales targeted at a time several months in the future already.

Maybe place mock item stacks as a possible solution to this particular problem? might solve/chip away on a bigger issue even, lots of money is made due to the truly unlimited storage the tp has, which is completely free compared to char/bank space.

That future (bold transition ) might come sooner though as casual players/the majority will find themselves starved of white karma the same as with gold. If there is little to plan with it tends to evaporate quite quickly and without white karma (and with gold) you would be using the buy now option.
Which speeds up those kind of trades. Like buying snowflakes for 3s and placing them at 9s to wait for the expected fluctuation to do the rest. Winter only comes once so that particular trade wouldn’t be much faster(I placed some 2 of my stacks at 10s and still waiting…anyway)

As I see it so far, it would be a rocky start at first for tppeople but after they’re (back) in the new routine there might be more profit (but less revenue) in it for them if they are wealthy and play on a regular basis. White karma would have to be easy to acquire not to exclude casuals from the tp and this (without some form of DR, which in turn would make lots of players angry) also means that people who play more than casuals should have plenty white karma. Also it would have to be easily obtainable for the same reasons.

It would
- eliminate “10 chars lvl 1 / 12 accounts” traders. I unfortunately have no clue how many of them exist out there.
- Possibly make casuals/poor people worse off due to buy now / white karma starvation?
- Probably won’t make short term flippers richer because you would have to have white karma in stock.
- Probably not affect longer term traders much and/or make their sales easier.
- definitely decreasing revenue across the board but with a larger spread better margins

Aaaah, I don’t know, it’s like turning high speed high volume trading off so I guess it would give some control back to the “human traders” on the tp. Which is good.
I guess it solves the original intent of removing those short term flippers.

Anyway, what do you think about the Mock Item idea? I understand it would severely cut profits/revenue/speed of all markets, except maybe legendaries.
Any adjustment you could see in this idea to make it worth discussing?

I neither have numbers nor the knowledge to predict economy changes, I go with the “what I would do” approach, hope that didn’t confuse any economists here with obvious mistakes, please point them out though.

Astral Projections.7320:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Wanze maybe you should edit the topic name so people stop saying you want to use the normal karma… gosh.

And maybe add some updating comments to the original post, since so many don’t read the thread. They read the first post then rush to comment.

Yeah, i was just about to do that but i got permanently interrupted by Germany scoring goals (dat CC chain!).
I dont blame anybody, if he doesnt read the whole topic and I dont care about those who dont and just write a post that they need their karma for a legendary. If they would have read all my posts, i would still expect an unconstructive 2 liner from them and nothing new added to the discussion.

Edit: Waiting for Anet to push a hotfix any minute and nerf Germany.

I like the concept and would like a different label for the karma used. Please let’s title this karma as Black Karma. It is the Black Lion Trading Post.

You’re welcome, you can send the gold to my account now

Michael Walker.8150:

Thanks for the elaboration Wanze.

Maybe place mock item stacks as a possible solution to this particular problem? might solve/chip away on a bigger issue even, lots of money is made due to the truly unlimited storage the tp has, which is completely free compared to char/bank space.

That future (bold transition ) might come sooner though as casual players/the majority will find themselves starved of white karma the same as with gold. If there is little to plan with it tends to evaporate quite quickly and without white karma (and with gold) you would be using the buy now option.

Anyway, what do you think about the Mock Item idea? I understand it would severely cut profits/revenue/speed of all markets, except maybe legendaries.
Any adjustment you could see in this idea to make it worth discussing?

I neither have numbers nor the knowledge to predict economy changes, I go with the “what I would do” approach, hope that didn’t confuse any economists here with obvious mistakes, please point them out though.

I have to confess that i didnt understand your whole mock item idea, so you would have to explain again.

I disagree with your assessment of “free storage” on the tp.
First of all, its not free, it costs 5% of the overall value. Its something you have to pay anyways at some point but there is a big difference, if your item is stored on the tp as a listing or in your personal storage. You can either list it in a range where you would eventually sell it (speculating on a price rise due to added demand from a new update)
or intentionally list it so high that it wont sell (if you want to have the opportunity to delist it).
The other possibility is to store it in your personal storage. This costs infrastructure costs by either buying additional Character/bag/bank space, which has either a fixed real money price or an ever growing gold price (gold/gem exchange). Thats why i would always suggest to use personal guild banks as storage. The price per item slot in a guild bank (when buying influence with gold) is way cheaper than buying personal storage space. And it gets cheaper in comparison everytime the gem/gold ratio rises.

Of course, storing your items off the market has its limits in quantity while storing it on the tp has not. But personally i think it has several advantages as a speculative trader to store your items offthe market.
First of all, you can observe the price and decide when the price is right to sell, without having to relist. It also makes it harder for other traders to kitten how much supply you have and how much supply is in game in general compared to the supply on the tp.

DeWolfe.2174:

I like the concept and would like a different label for the karma used. Please let’s title this karma as Black Karma. It is the Black Lion Trading Post.

You’re welcome, you can send the gold to my account now

How about Lion Droppings?

Wanze.8410:

DeWolfe.2174:

I like the concept and would like a different label for the karma used. Please let’s title this karma as Black Karma. It is the Black Lion Trading Post.

You’re welcome, you can send the gold to my account now

How about Lion Droppings?

… bursts out laughing

Evon’s confidence in his stranglehold over the Tyrian economy reaches new highs (lows?). “Yes, I SAID name it that! Trust me, the people of Tyria will buy it and like it, because they have no choice! Mwaahahahaha!”

Wanze.8410:

DeWolfe.2174:

I like the concept and would like a different label for the karma used. Please let’s title this karma as Black Karma. It is the Black Lion Trading Post.

You’re welcome, you can send the gold to my account now

How about Lion Droppings?

Technically speaking, it needs to be Black Lion Droppings. ^^

We can figure out later if it’s the lion or the droppings which are black.

Wanze.8410:

based on my mess

Yeah I wasn’t quite clear.

With free storage I meant using that storage with the intention of making sales, not storing items for free for later use. In this context the 5% are just part of the 15% sales tax and is meant to eliminate quick re-listing and a never ending undercutting of prices (with bots?). It’s a commitment tax I think would be fair to call it.
And the 10% sales tax is to prevent inflation going out of control?

So personal trading volume is only limited by the gold you have. Just imagine the rare earth industry being able to store their goods for free on UN parking lots.

Inventory management is very important in game, the TP mechanics don’t have any sort of limitation on storage.

This can be used to ones advantage, as mentioned above, with long term high volume sales.

Now one idea I had is, as soon as you place a buy order for 5 stacks of ore you get 5 stacks of “grey/inactive ore” in your inventory, as items you can move, put in your bank and then transfer to other characters if you wish. Or place it in the bank to begin with.
As soon as you pick up your order, this mock/substitution item gets deleted and the real items ends up where you pick it up.

Well, this is one idea, the most restrictive one and maybe too extreme. An alternative would be offering 100 TP “bag slots” for free and heavy tp users can upgrade it to 500? 1000?

This would hit high volume trades the most and create more competition within higher priced item markets.

So, white karma wouldn’t slow down trading as much as tp bag space but it also doesn’t have a hard cap either, assuming it is very easy to get not to make casual players mad. And it would probably have to be balanced for casuals?

This is my main thought, at what point does unlimited trading and its resulting velocity harm a larger amount of people than helping others.
Or just how different would the equilibrium be if only “amateurs” create it naturally by playing the game, selling and buying stuff on the tp. And then find a middle ground?

Another little addition concerning white karma would be a WK tax based on the total amount in the pick up tab instead of flat. Probably came up already, can somebod direct me to that?

def +1 for droppings

Michael Walker.8150:

Wanze.8410:

based on my mess

Yeah I wasn’t quite clear.

With free storage I meant using that storage with the intention of making sales, not storing items for free for later use. In this context the 5% are just part of the 15% sales tax and is meant to eliminate quick re-listing and a never ending undercutting of prices (with bots?). It’s a commitment tax I think would be fair to call it.
And the 10% sales tax is to prevent inflation going out of control?

So personal trading volume is only limited by the gold you have. Just imagine the rare earth industry being able to store their goods for free on UN parking lots.

Inventory management is very important in game, the TP mechanics don’t have any sort of limitation on storage.

This can be used to ones advantage, as mentioned above, with long term high volume sales.

Now one idea I had is, as soon as you place a buy order for 5 stacks of ore you get 5 stacks of “grey/inactive ore” in your inventory, as items you can move, put in your bank and then transfer to other characters if you wish. Or place it in the bank to begin with.
As soon as you pick up your order, this mock/substitution item gets deleted and the real items ends up where you pick it up.

Well, this is one idea, the most restrictive one and maybe too extreme. An alternative would be offering 100 TP “bag slots” for free and heavy tp users can upgrade it to 500? 1000?

This would hit high volume trades the most and create more competition within higher priced item markets.

So, white karma wouldn’t slow down trading as much as tp bag space but it also doesn’t have a hard cap either, assuming it is very easy to get not to make casual players mad. And it would probably have to be balanced for casuals?

This is my main thought, at what point does unlimited trading and its resulting velocity harm a larger amount of people than helping others.
Or just how different would the equilibrium be if only “amateurs” create it naturally by playing the game, selling and buying stuff on the tp. And then find a middle ground?

Another little addition concerning white karma would be a WK tax based on the total amount in the pick up tab instead of flat. Probably came up already, can somebod direct me to that?

def +1 for droppings

You dont want to hurt velocity. Its one of the main reasons why the tp is so efficient. Thats why I would oppose any suggestion that tries to change that (and i dont think karma tax would hurt velocity if properly implemented).
You have to consider that most of the tradeable items (definately anything that goes into your collectible tab and most consumables (recipes) and high value items) have a higher supply outside of the tp than on the tp as listing. As soon as you limit volume or value of items being able to be traded, you limit that supply to be available by being listed.
Once an item goes into demand, there are 2 possibilities of new supply added to the tp:
1. Supply that already existed in peoples inventory
2. Supply generated through awards/loots/etc.

So if an item goes into demand, supply in peoples inventory can be added instantly to the market. Farmers in general will also act on price shifts. If you can out of a sudden get 20g per hour by mining iron, people will do that and if farming the gauntlet hasa chance of dropping an item that is worth hundreds/thousands of gold, people will to that too.
But farmers need to adjust, while supply hoarded by players can be added instantly.
If you put a limit on that too, it will result in higher price spikes and longer time to adjust to a new price equilibrium.
That usually favors traders.

Bah, how i hate to have relog into the forum after trying to post a very long post and everything is gone.

Here we go again.
Just FYI, I am done with this discussion, my mind about my proposed change is made up.
I got a little behind in listing all pro´s and con´s abnd updating the white karma post (I think tradeable karma consumables wasa mechanic that got overlooked but is decicive.
I also decided to edit my OP and i will delete quite a bit of it, so i want to use this post to link it for future reference:
Hi Guys,
just had a wild thought about how you could maybe regulate profits on the TP and link them more towards other content played.
Frequently we see new topics popping up from people who complain about the tp and the profits being made by hardcore flippers/traders.
Many people think that it should be limited and be more in line with rewards from other gameplay.
I am one of those people that make lots of profit on the tp but that doesnt mean that i want to keep the status quo and i had this idea:
The main reason why i make so much profit is because i buy mostly everything on buy order.
So in order to limit my profits Anet would have to limit the amount of buy orders i can purchase stuff with.
So why not tax buy orders with an account bound currency?
Karma is the obvious choice because with gold and exp it is the most common currency and reward in game.
So basically for every buy order from me that gets filled, i have to pay a karma tax before i can pick it up.
Just to play with some numbers:
LEts start with a ratio of 20c/1 karma
This means, if i want to buy items on buy orders worth 1000g, i will be taxed 500.000k karma, which will be paid AFTER someone filled my buy order. If i dont have enough karma, the item will remain in my pickup tab until i can pay.
This is by no means a solution to wealth inequality because people who are good at the game in general as well as on the tp will still make 10 times more profit than the average player earns rewards.
But it would at least require traders to spend more time in game doing regular gameplay.
I didnt think it too far yet, would rather hear some feedback first.
A first negative thought about it would be that it would propably lead to a higher spread in general between buy orders and sell listings. But that would also benefit people that know how to make quick karma AND know their way around the tp because they basically have a higher ratio of karma spent per profit.
Well, lets discuss….
Edit:
Alot of feedback has been given and concerns raised. My original suggestion has changed quite a bit, so i will continue to edit my OP and point towards some new posts that summarize the inital proposal and changes being made.
The first mayor change is using a new currency for the karma tax, White Karma.
For more details on that, check this post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Add-Karma-tax-to-buy-orders/page/2#post4173927
In this post you can see my Proposal in a CDI format:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Add-Karma-tax-to-buy-orders/page/3#post4174722

I actually got some feedback from the Dev Team via Personal Messages. While I was bedazzled by personal feedback from the dev team, i was also wondering, why they didnt make it public. But due to the nature (of the private message), I am reluctant to just copy/paste it. The Dev Team raised 3 main concerns about my proposal.
I will generally state them for discussions sake but wont give me my opinion yet. I replied in detail via PM and I think I adressed them appropriately.
The 3 main concerns were:
1. A grace period for new players might have to be imlemented
2. Explaining it could be difficult (how to implrove tp education into the natural flow of the game?)
3. It could slow down market velocity (even though Anet acknowledges that this is not tested and I think it wont.

As i said, I am done with the discussion. I just raised those 3 points to give you an opportunity to adress them. As i said, I already made up my mind about them.

Cheers and Thanks to everybody,

Wanze.8410:

I got a little behind in listing all pro´s and con´s and updating the black karma post

Fixed that for you….

always periodically save/ctrl-a ctrl-c

sorry about that but thank you anyway for taking the time to answer. It probably would slow down velocity but it might just be neglectible.

My, less informed, point was that velocity alone is just a possibility to be used for better or worse. The equilibrium is mostly achieved by players seeing opportunities and in competition to each other create lesser, more acceptable margins for everybody. If this is done without speculation and in depth market knowledge it would be based on demand/supply only, no? And get those sudden bursts of supply by using more players with more supply than few players with huge supply and vice versa for demand.

Maybe that’s just the naive view of somebody without an economical background.

Your Karma tax seems like the best idea so far at least. good luck with the proposal and thx again for trying to make the TP more fair!

Wanze.8410:

Hi Guys,

just had a wild thought about how you could maybe regulate profits on the TP and link them more towards other content played.

That certainly is a ‘wild thought’. Wild as in out there, bizarre. This wouldn’t drive the targeted audience towards other content – it would drive them out of the game.

For many people including myself flipping on the Trading Post is how we choose to enjoy Guild Wars 2. It is the single feature that brought me back to the game. It is nearly a perfect virtual trade system with a huge following.

Not only would this destroy profits for flippers but it would translate into a loss of real world currency for the studio.

It’s as if you were personally knocking that box of Mac ‘n Cheese out of a Dev’s hand.

Frequently we see new topics popping up from people who complain about the tp and the profits being made by hardcore flippers/traders.

And frequently we see new topics complaining about class balance.. maybe we should charge warriors two karma every time they swing a sword? If it sounds insane it’s because it is, you’re not proposing a balance to one aspect of the game, you’re proposing to cripple it.

Many people think that it should be limited and be more in line with rewards from other gameplay.

You’re right. We should crush all variances in gameplay and enforce our gray landscape of unchanging reward with an iron fist.

Your proposal would serve to please a minority and limit real world profits. I don’t get it.

Mastrcheif.2683:

Wanze.8410:

Hi Guys,

just had a wild thought about how you could maybe regulate profits on the TP and link them more towards other content played.

That certainly is a ‘wild thought’. Wild as in out there, bizarre. This wouldn’t drive the targeted audience towards other content – it would drive them out of the game.

For many people including myself flipping on the Trading Post is how we choose to enjoy Guild Wars 2. It is the single feature that brought me back to the game. It is nearly a perfect virtual trade system with a huge following.

Not only would this destroy profits for flippers but it would translate into a loss of real world currency for the studio.

It’s as if you were personally knocking that box of Mac ‘n Cheese out of a Dev’s hand.

Frequently we see new topics popping up from people who complain about the tp and the profits being made by hardcore flippers/traders.

And frequently we see new topics complaining about class balance.. maybe we should charge warriors two karma every time they swing a sword? If it sounds insane it’s because it is, you’re not proposing a balance to one aspect of the game, you’re proposing to cripple it.

Many people think that it should be limited and be more in line with rewards from other gameplay.

You’re right. We should crush all variances in gameplay and enforce our gray landscape of unchanging reward with an iron fist.

Your proposal would serve to please a minority and limit real world profits. I don’t get it.

I am a tp player myself and i dont see how my suggestion would change anything of the fact that good tp players would still make the most profit in game.

LoL at anyone considering this a good idea. The idea would result in a shift in mentality on the market but wealth wouldn’t redistribute in the expected way.

restricting players this drastically will simply see focus shift from high volume lower value to low volume higher value flipping, The hardcore (in any game mode) will always excel far beyond the casual players and the casual players will always call foul either due to their own ignorance or out of complete laziness.

We all think things like precursors and legendaries are expensive now…when you restrict flippers to result in a necessity towards low volume high value items all you’re really doing is causing the massive demand towards low quantity items where at the end of the day the hardcore players come out on top because they are the players that research and adapt rather than cry foul at every turn.

The way to curb this “issue” if it see it as such is to improve the TP with more easily accessed info (rather than having to seek it from third parties) and in general raising player awareness….flipping only works because others are impatient or uninformed which is a knowledge and player issue not a game issue as such.

Protoavis.9107:

LoL at anyone considering this a good idea. The idea would result in a shift in mentality on the market but wealth wouldn’t redistribute in the expected way.
You dont bring up a single argument why wealth wouldnt redistribute in the expected way
restricting players this drastically will simply see focus shift from high volume lower value to low volume higher value flipping, The hardcore (in any game mode) will always excel far beyond the casual players and the casual players will always call foul either due to their own ignorance or out of complete laziness.
The volume has no impact on the karma tax, its purely related to value, so why should people shift from low value/high volume to low volume/high value? And i never claimed that it will cure the wealth disparity between hardcore players and casuals.
We all think things like precursors and legendaries are expensive now…when you restrict flippers to result in a necessity towards low volume high value items all you’re really doing is causing the massive demand towards low quantity items where at the end of the day the hardcore players come out on top because they are the players that research and adapt rather than cry foul at every turn.
Again, the karma tax would not shift flipper attention towards high value items and i dont know how you come to this conclusion.
The way to curb this “issue” if it see it as such is to improve the TP with more easily accessed info (rather than having to seek it from third parties) and in general raising player awareness….flipping only works because others are impatient or uninformed which is a knowledge and player issue not a game issue as such.
With this point, i agree.

Don’t add additional taxes to the TP — remove the existing sales and listing fees altogether. That will improve liquidity and tighten markets. People should be grateful that others spend a lot of their time creating markets for goods. It’s perfectly fine for them to profit and handsomely. Those folks who turn to the other guy and say “he makes too much money” just sicken me, in game and in RL.

As has been stated many times in multiple threads, flippers make money by selling to players who don’t use the system the way the flipper does — i.e., people who out of ignorance and/or impatience sell low and buy high. A higher spread between buy orders and sell orders is going to mean that this demographic is contributing more to flipper profits. White karma costs, as noted, will simply be passed on to the consumer.

Some players will get less for their sales, and pay more for their buys. If white karma selling is too complicated, then they won’t bother with it. For some players, white karma sales will bring them more profit, and some will break even. Players who don’t craft and aren’t pursuing a legendary might be substantially better off because they will make few buy orders. The real danger here is that there will be wealth distribution changes, but they will primarily be taking place at the middle and the low end of the continuum. At best, some flippers might stop or reduce their volume, but the ones making the highest amounts now will not likely be the ones effected.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Lukyromero.6780:

Okay, people need their legendaries, were already being restricted by the amount of gold we have; this is a horrible idea, I’m pretty sure that it would just make most incoming tp flippers ragequit the game.

So what? I don’t remember last time a TP flipper helped me complete an event, skill challenge or ported me to end of a jumping puzzle. People, who would be affected by Wanze’s suggestion do literally NOTHNIG in the game and therefore there is no reason to try to keep them around.
People, who combine TP and normal gameplay will definitely be experiencing significantly more profit. Why not? They sure deserve it. Anet’s philosophy has always been “the wider amount of content you do, the faster you will achieve success” as it was proven to us by PvP reward boosts that have already come and that are probably arriving in the future.
You just have to understand that if you play the game normally and use the TP ocasionally, this change won’t affect you at all (you might be even better off) and if you do TP solely, there is no need for you being in the game at all. Go find yourself a market simulator and don’t poison our RPG.

Excuse me, I have three characters who completed the story; grinded for armor styles, and one that did map completion, another that has half of Tyria completed including the Magumma map, I’ve grinded every dungeon, and grinded champs, and grinded world events, and bosses, and dragons, and I still WvW sporadically. Excuse me if I rained on your parade, but you obviously can’t see that TP flippers are GOOD for the economy. Adding a karma tax would ruin most of the incoming TP players and would ruin the market as well; iron ore would be like 10c and blue armor would be at their base sale price, and rare armor would sell for like 5 silver, you toss those into the mystic forge, get your precursor and sell it for 10g while the next person gets it and you wont feel that getting a legendary is even legendary; if you want that, then go ahead and believe your claim is valid.

Lukyromero.6780:

Excuse me if I rained on your parade, but you obviously can’t see that TP flippers are GOOD for the economy. Adding a karma tax would ruin most of the incoming TP players and would ruin the market as well;

Please explain to me, the OP, how my proposal would influence the amount of flipping going on, if the overall average amount of daily white karma earned covers the average value of buy orders filled?

Wanze.8410:

Lukyromero.6780:

Excuse me if I rained on your parade, but you obviously can’t see that TP flippers are GOOD for the economy. Adding a karma tax would ruin most of the incoming TP players and would ruin the market as well;

Please explain to me, the OP, how my proposal would influence the amount of flipping going on, if the overall average amount of daily white karma earned covers the average value of buy orders filled?

if you list more than 2500 buy orders (or about 1 page of buy orders) a day, do you
really think Anet is going to make it that easy for you? That you can waltz on into a market and say you can spend 100 karma for those buy orders? I guarantee if you implement this method, the amount of karma spent per buy order wouldn’t only depend on the amount of items or how costly the item is rather it would depend on its rarity too! Also it would significantly decrease the number of NEW TP players wanting to play the market, thus as I said, the prices you see now, will no longer be stable! You may have 8 million karma, but the incoming TP flipper may have 500,000 and hes depending on that 500,000 to help him/her advance with their legendaries. Then by implementing this karma tax, you’re asking those players to pay the karma they’re wasting on the obi shards already, to give up on TP flipping and grind more. In addition to the new incoming TP flippers, they may not have the same characteristics; different players may have more than one goal to TP flipping; but by letting the players who already have a crazy amount of karma get way above those that don’t, you’re trying to take advantage of a market someone’s trying to get into. That’s unfair, and unruly. My advice is you save that karma, or spend it on obssidian shards to forge toss to get t6 mats, and I can tell you PVX a lot already, so getting the globs shouldn’t be so hard. OR perhaps in the future they’ll find a way to make karma a viable currency; save it until then, there’s a lot more maps besides Magumma coming out.

This is actualy very good idea. Those kitten flippers dont have karma for that so market will be finally for actual players.

Lukyromero.6780:

Wanze.8410:

Lukyromero.6780:

Excuse me if I rained on your parade, but you obviously can’t see that TP flippers are GOOD for the economy. Adding a karma tax would ruin most of the incoming TP players and would ruin the market as well;

Please explain to me, the OP, how my proposal would influence the amount of flipping going on, if the overall average amount of daily white karma earned covers the average value of buy orders filled?

if you list more than 2500 buy orders (or about 1 page of buy orders) a day, do you
really think Anet is going to make it that easy for you? That you can waltz on into a market and say you can spend 100 karma for those buy orders? I guarantee if you implement this method, the amount of karma spent per buy order wouldn’t only depend on the amount of items or how costly the item is rather it would depend on its rarity too! Also it would significantly decrease the number of NEW TP players wanting to play the market, thus as I said, the prices you see now, will no longer be stable! You may have 8 million karma, but the incoming TP flipper may have 500,000 and hes depending on that 500,000 to help him/her advance with their legendaries. Then by implementing this karma tax, you’re asking those players to pay the karma they’re wasting on the obi shards already, to give up on TP flipping and grind more. In addition to the new incoming TP flippers, they may not have the same characteristics; different players may have more than one goal to TP flipping; but by letting the players who already have a crazy amount of karma get way above those that don’t, you’re trying to take advantage of a market someone’s trying to get into. That’s unfair, and unruly. My advice is you save that karma, or spend it on obssidian shards to forge toss to get t6 mats, and I can tell you PVX a lot already, so getting the globs shouldn’t be so hard. OR perhaps in the future they’ll find a way to make karma a viable currency; save it until then, there’s a lot more maps besides Magumma coming out.

I guess, you didnt read my whole proposal. It will be a different kind of karma (white karma) which would be more or less disxtributed like regular karma but only used to pay the tax, so it doesnt matter, how much regular karma you had. Everybody starts at square one and those that would like to play more on the tp than regular players, willl need to buy white karma off those players.
And the tax is only applied to the value of FILLED buy orders retroactively when you want to pick it up. Selling is not taxed and direct buying is not taxed either.

I’ve read through this thread several times and can only conclude that it is an attempt at a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Throwing roadblocks up to “regulate” a system that is working just fine as-is only serves to reward those who have already made their money as opposed to those doing it currently, and smells of protectionism for the old guard. If there were an actual problem, I could see trying to find a fix. However, there isn’t one that has been proven, and any such “solution” only serves to limit the potential profit for newcomers in a way the old traders never had to contend with. I generally appreciate Wanze’s posts, but I have to give a big thumbs down to this.

It’s not about solving a problem that doesn’t exist. It’s about convincing some that flippers are playing the game as well since they would need to play to place large amounts (in terms of price) of buy orders.

There are those that believe flippers play the TP 16 hours a day (or just an hour depending how easy they think flipping is), raking in 1000s of gold of day which they use to manipulate the price of luxury items, raise the price of everything with their buy and sell orders and/or convert said gold into gems and thus raising the gem price for EVERYONE else which then “forces” players to grind for gold just so they can buy the new tchotchke or armor skin introduced at the Gem Store this week.

It’s theater at best.

At worse it drives out those who are scraping by flipping and favoring those who only need to put an hour in a day while still participating in the game. It could actually reduce competition for the better flippers which could lead to the abuses that players have been imagining all along. Yes it’s a little tin-foil hatty/conspiracy theory take on the idea but if this was implemented and essentially nothing changes in prices or halting the rise in the gold→gem rate, this would be the kind of theory trotted out to explain why.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to the OP.

DaveGan.8065:

I think you, Aidan, and perhaps others seem to be going on the notion that flippers bring “equilibrium” to a market. On the other hand, I believe the population in this game is big enough to easily bring things into equilibrium, even if the buy-sell spread is wider.

Since this hasnt been addressed for over a week, lets rectify that.

• First off, JS has stated flippers bring the markets into equilibrium.
• Two, the population of the game is large enough that the natural progression of prices without flippers is to slowly increase over time because people will be selling to buy orders and buying from sell orders, the opposite of equilibrium.
• Three, do you even know what “Market Equilibrium” is? For the sake of posterity, here’s a quote of it sufficient for this topic:
  [quote]Market equilibrium in this case refers to a condition where a market price is established through competition such that the amount of goods or services sought by buyers is equal to the amount of goods or services produced by sellers. This price is often called the competitive price or market clearing price and will tend not to change unless demand or supply changes and the quantity is called “competitive quantity” or market clearing quantity.[/quote]

So by following point 3, equilibrium is when the price points for buy orders and sell orders are exactly the same. Given how the TP works when those points are equal, we’ll allow a bit of fudging and say prices are in equilibrium as long as the prices are within 5 copper of each other. So please explain how things can be in equilibrium with a massive buy/sell spread?
Point 2 also brings along the argument that flippers bring prices down. This is also going on the logic that flippers do not merely buy with buy orders on item X and then sell as a sell listing for item X. Instead, many of them will by buying with buy orders for one item X, as well as buy orders for ABCD to craft INTO a single item X. With buy orders fulfilled, let’s say the spread of item X increased by 1 copper, yet when they list the quantity of item X they have, the spread will have decreased by 1 copper at minimum, though the spread is more likely to go down by 2 copper.

I had more, but got distracted by Dry Top.