Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

It’s obscene if a player manages it even once outside of getting lucky on a precursor drop. If a player can average even 1000g per month it’s far far too much.

There are plenty of players that bring in 1000g a month without using the TP for more than selling the goods they get playing the game. It takes some commitment and a good chunk of time (4-5 hours a day), but it’s perfectly doable. I’m not sure why you think of it as such an outlandish amount of money.

As someone who follows the markets, what do you think would happen to the prices of precursors if they made the following tweaks to supply <snip>

If I had to bet I’d put my money on the price of precursors going up.

In the aggregate, such a change would be a massive positive supply shock. The game would be dropping a lot more stuff than it is now, but gold drops would be unchanged, which would drive down prices on the whole. So as a first order approximation, you’d expect prices on precursors to drop along with the aggregate trend.

However the big supply shock isn’t from additional precursors, but from a lot of excess mithril, elder wood, and T5 fine mats that no longer have value. So while aggregate prices would drop, I would expect most of that drop to be contained in those and substitute goods – mithril and elder wood go to merchant value, T5 fine materials drop down to a price reflecting promotion and ecto salvage (via rare crafting) value; T6 fine and ectos drop from increased supply. Basically I’d expect the losses to be concentrated in the areas currently held up by precursor forging.

Thing is, most of those commodities are complimentary goods to precursors. Driving down the price of one good tends to drive up the price of complimentary goods; and it’s easy to imagine that with cheaper T6 materials and ectoplasm, people interested in crafting a legendary would have even more cash available to bid on the same number of precursors.

So on the whole I’d expect prices to drop, but that to be mostly concentrated in complimentary goods to precursors, which would on the whole drive precursor prices up.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

ok so in gw2 looking at gem prices in the last year gems were about 100gems=2gold, this year 100gems=8gold, similarly the US economy took about 55 years to reach a similar rise in inflation effective to buying power, meaning that at the speed GW2 economy moves a single day in GW2 economy would be comparable to nearly two months in the US economy (DISCLAIMER: I used the time period between 1914 and 1969 to show this increase as getting closer to the 2000s inflation is shown to be much higher, but while looking back to 1775 to 1875 would have been equally ridiculous as it showed only about 14 percent inflation over 100 years http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/relativevalue.php) but to get to the point of this, I believe this shows that flippers are indeed selling time as if a loan or for speculators maybe it would look more like buying futures.

Except the Gem Exchange rates are determined by scarcity of gems in the exchange relative to the exchange’s gold reserve. The more gems purchased with gold, the higher the rate goes because the exchange now has more gold in it’s coffers and less gems. The only way the exchange gets more gems is if players sell it gems for gold and that causes the rate to go down.

Today I’m noticing with spikes caused by the key sale that some players are taking the opportunity to buy gems with cash and convert them to gold. It broke 7g for 100 gems sold or over 5.6g per $1. If ANet quickly follows with more popular items I can see the gold to gem rate easily breaking 10g per 100 gems.

“And an awesome wailing was heard throughout heaven …”

This would of course cripple profits for high volume/high value traders.10% more tax would be hardly noticable for me and wouldnt serve your purpose as i would only make 9 times more gold than you instead of 10 times. A 50% cap on taxes would half my profits, meaning i have to work twice as much as before. But in the long run, it would also cripple profits for everybody else while creating a gold sink that would be hard to balance.

Yeah, that’s why I was musing maybe a bell curve, like maybe it’s one that would ramp up faster than I initially proposed, maybe hitting 50% at a lower total, maybe growing past 50%, and then slowing down once it reaches a good number, coasting to a hard cap wherever it needs to be.

It could also involve a time mechanic, like a percentage of that tax would be removed each month since you started, which would mean that if you make 10K gold over the first year then you would get the large tax, like 50%+, while if you hit 10K gold over ten years, the monthly pull back would mean that your overall tax rate would be little higher than a new player’s, since you would have expected to make that much money over so long a period of time, while the hardcore TPer might be in the million gold range or whatever, and he would still have the highest tax rate. It’d basically be -1 each month, so if you only make +1 per month, it balances out to nothing, while if you make 10 each month it’d be +9, balanced out so that a “1” would be about what the median player makes in a given month.

The goal here wouldn’t be to cripple TP flippers entirely, but just to make it way less profitable for them. The peak tax rate should be enough to turn a 1000 gold per month average into something basically consistent with champ trains (or ideally with less farmy methods of earning gold).

As for creating too much of a gold sink, it should really only be applied to the upper echelon of traders in the first place, so if that creates “too much of a gold sink” for the game then it would only highlight how much of the game’s gold gets concentrated in the hands of a few. If it truly does take out more gold than the system puts in though, there solution is simple enough, put in more gold. If they can take a million gold out of the economy each month that would come almost entirely from the wealthy TP farmers, and then put it back into the economy in a diversified manner to people playing general PvE activities, then I would call that mission accomplished. It would both reduce the wealth of the top rungs, and increase the wealth of the lower rungs, without adding any inflation to the system, that seems just about perfect to me.

Right now, a market in equilibrium usually has a price spread close to 15%. Once the average tax each player has to pay has reach 20%, that price spread will be resembling 20% in equilibrium, subsequently reducing my relative tax penalty of 50% by 5%.

And keep in mind, this sort of tax would not only be a general tax on the rich, it would also introduce a competitive disadvantage to them. If a rich TP flipper faces a 50% tax on his transactions, then that means he’d need to make a 65% profit to break even on a trade, right? Something like that. Anyways, a non pro-flipper would not face that penalty, he’d still only need to make a 15% return to break even, so he could drastically undercut the pro flipper and still make a great profit. . I’m not an economist and don’t care to run out the numbers to find ideal balance points, but my gut tells me that even something in the 5-20% range would make a very wealthy flipper very uncompetitive relative to a more casual trader.

Lowering trade volumes is a 2 edged sword because it would greatly impact high volume markets while not doing anything about high value/low volume markets. If you set the limit to 250 sales/purchases per day, you wouldnt be able to buy enough mats on the tp to craft a bolt of damask but i would still be able to purchase 250 items each worth 4 gold and have a trade volume of 1000g.
Again, a change like this wouldnt hurt TP traders but the general player base.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of volume limits myself, unless they were like flexible volumes, in which a “bulk” mat like linen cloth you would be allowed to trade 500+ units per day, while “luxury” items like exotics you could only buy 3-4 per day or something, but that would be overly complicated to work out and manage.

There are plenty of players that bring in 1000g a month without using the TP for more than selling the goods they get playing the game. It takes some commitment and a good chunk of time (4-5 hours a day), but it’s perfectly doable. I’m not sure why you think of it as such an outlandish amount of money.

Mainly because I’ve been playing 2-3 hours daily since launch and never passed a thousand gold between my eight characters in total. Even during my best periods I don’t believe I averaged more than a few gold per day. I made maybe 100 gold over one month, I think back when the Scarlet Invasions were happening, but that is not the usual. I know I don’t play super efficiently with my time, but I can’t imagine the disparity would be that high.

Various methods by which players do make a lot of money through actual gameplay have been nerfed, such as when they decrease certain mob rewards, reduced the rewards for repeating quick dungeons, and lowered the cash value of champ bags, so why not also nerf the TP method?

And if there are players that make 1000g per month through PvE methods, then good for them, they are playing the core game and getting rewarded for it, and that’s fine. People shouldn’t be making that much from playing the game’s economy though.

However the big supply shock isn’t from additional precursors, but from a lot of excess mithril, elder wood, and T5 fine mats that no longer have value.

Those mats are already fairly cheap relative to their positions in the resource trees. If ANet were worried that their value would crater, all it would take is them adding some new useful recipes that require them. It worked for cloths and low end metals. Even leather has seen a slight bump lately only by being the cheapest method of getting a fancy new backpack.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, that’s why I was musing maybe a bell curve, like maybe it’s one that would ramp up faster than I initially proposed, maybe hitting 50% at a lower total, maybe growing past 50%, and then slowing down once it reaches a good number, coasting to a hard cap wherever it needs to be.

It could also involve a time mechanic, like a percentage of that tax would be removed each month since you started, which would mean that if you make 10K gold over the first year then you would get the large tax, like 50%+, while if you hit 10K gold over ten years, the monthly pull back would mean that your overall tax rate would be little higher than a new player’s, since you would have expected to make that much money over so long a period of time, while the hardcore TPer might be in the million gold range or whatever, and he would still have the highest tax rate. It’d basically be -1 each month, so if you only make +1 per month, it balances out to nothing, while if you make 10 each month it’d be +9, balanced out so that a “1” would be about what the median player makes in a given month.

The goal here wouldn’t be to cripple TP flippers entirely, but just to make it way less profitable for them. The peak tax rate should be enough to turn a 1000 gold per month average into something basically consistent with champ trains (or ideally with less farmy methods of earning gold).

As for creating too much of a gold sink, it should really only be applied to the upper echelon of traders in the first place, so if that creates “too much of a gold sink” for the game then it would only highlight how much of the game’s gold gets concentrated in the hands of a few. If it truly does take out more gold than the system puts in though, there solution is simple enough, put in more gold. If they can take a million gold out of the economy each month that would come almost entirely from the wealthy TP farmers, and then put it back into the economy in a diversified manner to people playing general PvE activities, then I would call that mission accomplished. It would both reduce the wealth of the top rungs, and increase the wealth of the lower rungs, without adding any inflation to the system, that seems just about perfect to me.
And keep in mind, this sort of tax would not only be a general tax on the rich, it would also introduce a competitive disadvantage to them. If a rich TP flipper faces a 50% tax on his transactions, then that means he’d need to make a 65% profit to break even on a trade, right? Something like that. Anyways, a non pro-flipper would not face that penalty, he’d still only need to make a 15% return to break even, so he could drastically undercut the pro flipper and still make a great profit. . I’m not an economist and don’t care to run out the numbers to find ideal balance points, but my gut tells me that even something in the 5-20% range would make a very wealthy flipper very uncompetitive relative to a more casual trader.

Anything you proposed has still 1 flaw, which i mentioned several times:

You still compare the profits i make with rewards from gameplay. Itsa fundamental difference because your gold reward for completing a dungeon is created out of thin air while my profits are gold that were created by other players out of thin air. I dont create gold, it is given to me. And in the process, i suck gold out of the game through taxes. That gold i pay in taxes, is not generated by me but other players, so it hurts them, not me.

I understand and accept your opinion that you think its unfair that tp traders make more gold than you per hour but everything you suggested here wont hurt them as much as the general player base. The fact that i have more gold than you at the end of the day doesnt influence the way you play the game in any way. The majority of the player base doesnt care that someone earns more gold than them because they cast a vote everytime they sell to the highest bidder and buy the lowest listing. If everybody would list his loot instead of selling directly, there wouldnt be as much profit for flippers. Just because your of a different opinion shouldnt mean Anet should highly lower their or mine gaming experience.

The bottom line is that you want everybody else to earn as much as you do, which is very selfish.

You still compare the profits i make with rewards from gameplay. Itsa fundamental difference because your gold reward for completing a dungeon is created out of thin air while my profits are gold that were created by other players out of thin air

That’s not a fundamental difference. It may be fundamental on an economic level, but that’s for economists to sort out and make transparent to the players. On the player level, it’s you making more money than through other methods, it doesn’t matter where it comes from, if you’re making a lot more of it than through other methods then that is a Problem.

I dont create gold, it is given to me. And in the process, i suck gold out of the game through taxes. That gold i pay in taxes, is not generated by me but other players, so it hurts them, not me.

Paying gold in transaction fees and taking gold from other players does not make it somehow a more justified way of earning gold. If the game needs gold sinks to reduce the total amount in the world, they can always add gold sinks, the market transaction fees don’t have to contribute as much to that as they currently do if that’s your concern.

I understand and accept your opinion that you think its unfair that tp traders make more gold than you per hour but everything you suggested here wont hurt them as much as the general player base.

I don’t believe that. A lot of the defenses have been the same macro-economic jargon that says that Wall Streets’ actions have been good for the average man too. It’s ultimately self-serving animal-mess that is used to take what is fundamentally a selfish endeavor, making as much personal wealth as you can manage, and putting a vainer of moral justification on it, so that those who take advantage of such systems can eat their cake, make their money, and have it too, pretend that they are doing a positive service in the process. We have to accept that in the real world because there’s nobody to keep those yahoos in line, but in the game with have a company who is the God of the economy, can can do anything they want with it, so any shenanigans that occur happen because they allow them to occur.

The majority of the player base doesnt care that someone earns more gold than them because they cast a vote everytime they sell to the highest bidder and buy the lowest listing.

It’s this sort of comment that leads me to believe you have absolutely no clue what the majority of the player base wants or doesn’t want. They aren’ voting to support the status quo every time they make a bad deal, they just don’t understand that they are making a bad deal. If they knew how bad a deal they were making, they’d never make it, and no, their ignorance is not justification for taking advantage of them.

The bottom line is that you want everybody else to earn as much as you do, which is very selfish.

And you want everyone to earn less than you do, which is even more selfish.

Ohoni.6057:

The bottom line is that you want everybody else to earn as much as you do, which is very selfish.

And you want everyone to earn less than you do, which is even more selfish.

No, I dont. I gave enough tips in this topic on how to make gold easily on the TP. I never said i dont want others to make profit on the TP. Right now, everybody has the same choice to make as much as i do, if he wants to.

I think thats a fair playing field. You are the one that wants to regulate the trading post for everybody.

Note too that Anet has designed this game so that the most “fun” and “challenging” content — sPvP, WvW, Fractals — has the worst gold payoff. Instead, it is the “boring” and repetitive stuff, like champ training, flipping, and so forth, that is the most profitable. This is by design, so that the most passionate players, who frequently play for reasons other than gold, have an incentive to buy gems.

This is a good thing, as it keeps the game in the black and well supported. It also incentivizes harvesting and farming, which make goods available to those players who spend dollars.

There’s more to the system than straight-up economics. Most of the things are the way they are for a reason, and that is to maximize enjoyment amongst the player base while ensuring a substantial minority continues to buy gems. A free and open trading post actively contributes to this.

Bunda.2691:

Note too that Anet has designed this game so that the most “fun” and “challenging” content —- sPvP, WvW, Fractals —- has the worst gold payoff. Instead, it is the “boring” and repetitive stuff, like champ training, flipping, and so forth, that is the most profitable. This is by design, so that the most passionate players, who frequently play for reasons other than gold, have an incentive to buy gems.

This is a good thing, as it keeps the game in the black and well supported. It also incentivizes harvesting and farming, which make goods available to those players who spend dollars.

No its actually not a good thing, its cynical, manipulative and exploitative. If the only way the model can make money is by resorting to such tactics then it doesn’t deserve to succeed.

morrolan.9608:

Bunda.2691:

Note too that Anet has designed this game so that the most “fun” and “challenging” content —- sPvP, WvW, Fractals —- has the worst gold payoff. Instead, it is the “boring” and repetitive stuff, like champ training, flipping, and so forth, that is the most profitable. This is by design, so that the most passionate players, who frequently play for reasons other than gold, have an incentive to buy gems.

This is a good thing, as it keeps the game in the black and well supported. It also incentivizes harvesting and farming, which make goods available to those players who spend dollars.

No its actually not a good thing, its cynical, manipulative and exploitative. If the only way the model can make money is by resorting to such tactics then it doesn’t deserve to succeed.

Ok then go play a true free to play game… Flappy birds… Or now splashy fish… Bore yourself to death and view obscene amounts of advertisements.

Now to be serious. There are two ways to gain money, you either work, or you invest. Otherwise in game terms, you either farm PvE or you play the TP. As in real life there are things that hardly earn you any money… But they are fun. That is sPvP, WvW, and Fractals.

Soooooo, you either need to designate some time during your “ig week” to either work your job in pve OR invest as a merchant in the TP. Or… you can spend irl money to get what you would rather not work for in a game. In the mean time you can keep playing the supposed MORE (say supposed again under your breath) fun activities of the game.

They are people who have fun making money in games.
And others who have fun becoming ‘gods of PvP’.

And then there are those who do both… They are the ones that never seem to complain.
So the moral of the story is……………….
You can’t expect to get something you don’t invest ig time into OR rl money into.

-Vys

No, I dont. I gave enough tips in this topic on how to make gold easily on the TP.

You’ve also basically noted that if everyone were doing it, it wouldn’t work for anyone. Flipper tactics only work because most of the game’s population don’t understand how they work.

I think thats a fair playing field. You are the one that wants to regulate the trading post for everybody.

As I noted before, it’s a level playing field in the sense that an FPS is a level playing-field, in that the people who are good at it will win and the people who are not good will fail horribly, but I don’t believe that this is a healthy way to run an in-game economy in an action/adventure game. The economy should be equally rewarding for everyone, not just those that are good at stock markets. It is not fair to those that aren’t good at playing it.

. This is by design, so that the most passionate players, who frequently play for reasons other than gold, have an incentive to buy gems.

I still think that the “players buy gems to convert into gold” excuse is a very poor one. I just can’t imagine that gems to gold is ANet’s primary revenue stream. Unless they say otherwise, my assumption is that they get most of their money from people converting cash directly into Gem Store items like costumes and character slots and that sort of thing, rather than into gold. If gold was their primary revenue stream then I would think they’d just give up on the gem store items and keep making high priced drops which would require hundreds of gold.

Now to be serious. There are two ways to gain money, you either work, or you invest. Otherwise in game terms, you either farm PvE or you play the TP. As in real life there are things that hardly earn you any money… But they are fun. That is sPvP, WvW, and Fractals.

I prefer world events, myself. Any time there isn’t LW content that is worth playing, I bounce from event to event all night. I never do sPvP, WvW, or Fractals, and hate when the game tries to push me towards them.Besides, Fractal offer a great cash return for a PvE activity, and apparently sPvP will as well now.

Ohoni.6057

I never do sPvP, WvW, or Fractals, and hate when the game tries to push me towards them.Besides, Fractal offer a great cash return for a PvE activity, and apparently sPvP will as well now.

Which is actually a move on ANet’s part that I applaud. Yes, I do think that the TP offers a disproportionate amount of financial return (but one that requires a lot of work and research, so it’s not the kind of “easy money” that people are making it out to be. If it were, then everybody would be doing it and profit margins would be destroyed in hours), but instead of trying to nerf the TP, why not increase the rewards from other game playstyles?

As an example, Fractal weapon skins only drop from Fractals, but not all players who do Fractals are interested in the skins (or perhaps they get a skin that their profession simply can’t use, like a Greatsword skin on an Ele), and some players who like the skins don’t enjoy Fractals. Why not allow the Fractal skins to be sellable so that those two groups can satisfy each other’s desires? Fractal skins are still pretty rare, so if you get one that you can’t (or don’t want to) use, it’s a nice windfall.

The same could be applied to SAB, dungeons, Activities etc. I’m a great supporter of EVERYTHING being able to be bought and sold on the TP.

If it were, then everybody would be doing it and profit margins would be destroyed in hours), but instead of trying to nerf the TP, why not increase the rewards from other game playstyles?

From what I understand, if other activities in the game offered rewards even half of what the TP does, it would result in uncontrollable inflation and it would cost 200g for a loaf of Taragon Bread.

As an example, Fractal weapon skins only drop from Fractals, but not all players who do Fractals are interested in the skins (or perhaps they get a skin that their profession simply can’t use, like a Greatsword skin on an Ele), and some players who like the skins don’t enjoy Fractals. Why not allow the Fractal skins to be sellable so that those two groups can satisfy each other’s desires? Fractal skins are still pretty rare, so if you get one that you can’t (or don’t want to) use, it’s a nice windfall.

Fractals get enough rewards for a PvE activity. While I wouldn’t mind being able to buy fractal swords and backpacks without having to run fractals, that alone wouldn’t do much, and it would just end up making the TP flippers richer because they would flip them.

Ohoni.6057:

From what I understand, if other activities in the game offered rewards even half of what the TP does, it would result in uncontrollable inflation and it would cost 200g for a loaf of Taragon Bread.

That’s why increasing rewards from other game modes should be in the form of mode-specific goods that are sold to other players, not so much as raw cash. The TP in and of itself doesn’t generate gold; all it’s doing is shifting gold from one player to another (with a chunk of it being removed in the form of TP taxes).

Ohoni.6057:

Fractals get enough rewards for a PvE activity. While I wouldn’t mind being able to buy fractal swords and backpacks without having to run fractals, that alone wouldn’t do much, and it would just end up making the TP flippers richer because they would flip them.

Ehh, I’d actually argue against you on that. Dungeons are much more profitable than Fractals in terms of time spent/difficulty vs rewards. The one benefit that Fractals has going for it is that it’s by far the cheapest way of acquiring Ascended Rings and 20 slot bags.

But anyway, you’d need to strike just the right balance where the skins are not so commonplace that the market is flooded with them, but also not so rare that flippers could control (or at least influence) the market.

Ehh, I’d actually argue against you on that. Dungeons are much more profitable than Fractals in terms of time spent/difficulty vs rewards. The one benefit that Fractals has going for it is that it’s by far the cheapest way of acquiring Ascended Rings and 20 slot bags.

And Ascended backs, there are plenty of solid rewards in the Fractals, and they dump a ton of basic loot that you can salvage, vendor, or TP, depending on what it is.

Ohoni.6057:

No, I dont. I gave enough tips in this topic on how to make gold easily on the TP.

You’ve also basically noted that if everyone were doing it, it wouldn’t work for anyone. Flipper tactics only work because most of the game’s population don’t understand how they work.

Most people do understand what a buy order and a sell listing is, they just prefer not to wait with their purchase/sale. So there is no need to change the system. Some people still dont know how to kill Tequatl but that doesnt mean Anet needs to change the fight mechanics so everybody can get his loot. The better you understand the TP the more gold you can make, its the same with other parts of the game, dungeon running, fractals, wvw, pvp.

Seven pages of what boils down to – “I have no idea of how markets work but some people might be making more gold than me so please nerf/change them”. Fantastic.

Most people do understand what a buy order and a sell listing is, they just prefer not to wait with their purchase/sale.

And how do you know this for a fact?

And how do you know that they understand how little time they would typically spend waiting to receive their payment? I don’t believe that the average player is as in touch with these systems as you believe, given how few people actually use them. I can’t believe that the majority of players in the game are so impatient that they refuse to wait 24 hours to see a doubled return on selling their item, or a halved price on acquiring some items they want. Sometimes perhaps, but not consistently enough for flippers to see the returns that they do.

The better you understand the TP the more gold you can make, its the same with other parts of the game, dungeon running, fractals, wvw, pvp.

Yes, but the amount you can make on the TP is MAGNITUDES HIGHER, which is why it’s UNBALANCED. If the TP were just one other method of making money, one no more efficient than any other, then fair enough, nobody would bother taking that away from you, but if Warriors are hitting for a hundred times more damage than any other class, then I’m sorry, the nerf bat should be coming for you.

99,9% players are hurt by the TP speculation…
But the economy on paper seems good so that is fine…because the 0,01% with all the wealth are compensating…

What about considering average player wealth and how it affects his game?
At that point the Whole TP system is a huge fail as diablo 3 and lineage2…..

I still fail to understand how anet can let economy rule over the game rather than the opposite.

Ohoni.6057:

Most people do understand what a buy order and a sell listing is, they just prefer not to wait with their purchase/sale.

And how do you know this for a fact?

And how do you know that they understand how little time they would typically spend waiting to receive their payment? I don’t believe that the average player is as in touch with these systems as you believe, given how few people actually use them. I can’t believe that the majority of players in the game are so impatient that they refuse to wait 24 hours to see a doubled return on selling their item, or a halved price on acquiring some items they want. Sometimes perhaps, but not consistently enough for flippers to see the returns that they do.

I have 100 people in my guild and everybody knows the difference between buy order and sell listing and many use both features. However, most of the time, they opt for the conscious choice of convenient and fast cash and purchases.

Your 24 hours/double return statement is also completely made up.

LordByron.8369:

99,9% players are hurt by the TP speculation…
But the economy on paper seems good so that is fine…because the 0,01% with all the wealth are compensating…

What about considering average player wealth and how it affects his game?
At that point the Whole TP system is a huge fail as diablo 3 and lineage2…..

I still fail to understand how anet can let economy rule over the game rather than the opposite.

How do you know that the rich 0.01% of the population have enough gold to make an impact on the economy? Those people are usually gold sellers that get their gold through botting/exploiting.

And if you consider me rich, i dont see how i hurt your gaming experience. Just because i have more gold on hand, doesnt mean i am consuming/using more stuff than the guy next to me. I only play one character and never bought or sold a precursor or legendary. In fact, i dont think i ever purchased anything worth more than 150g. I only made my 5th ascended armor piece yesterday, and i rather use skins i earned from achievements than bought ones. Prices are established by supply and demand of the general player base, not me, as i dont supply or demand more than the average player, i dont know how i affect your gaming experience.

Fenrir.3609:

Seven pages of what boils down to – “I have no idea of how markets work but some people might be making more gold than me so please nerf/change them”. Fantastic.

Bolded the root of the problem for you.

I too got tired of other people making more gold than me, but instead of demanding income equality I learned how to make more gold.

Neural.1824:

Fenrir.3609:

Seven pages of what boils down to – “I have no idea of how markets work but some people might be making more gold than me so please nerf/change them”. Fantastic.

Bolded the root of the problem for you.

I too got tired of other people making more gold than me, but instead of demanding income equality I learned how to make more gold.

It’s not about just you or I. It’s about the game as a whole. It’s about how it’s not remotely balanced with the rest of the game. It stands alone on a pedestal, yet it’s effects are far reaching.

Balancing it would not require nerfing it into the ground. It would simply bring it more inline with the rest of the game. Steps could be taken to adjust gold sinks to compensate for it as well. Balancing it could be done in a manner that would benefit the game….ie…make it better, more fun <—-looking at you JS, more balanced….as a whole. Consideration for more players would aid the overall health of the game, not just a few and/or one’s “baby” (economic project), seen by numbers alone.

We need to think of the game as a whole and not reside in a vain abstract.

Essence Snow.3194:

Neural.1824:

Fenrir.3609:

Seven pages of what boils down to – “I have no idea of how markets work but some people might be making more gold than me so please nerf/change them”. Fantastic.

Bolded the root of the problem for you.

I too got tired of other people making more gold than me, but instead of demanding income equality I learned how to make more gold.

It’s not about just you or I….

Actually, yes it is. If no-one was making money on the trading post via flipping, no-one would be crying about it here on the forums. This has nothing to do with “balance” and everything to do with people wanting what someone else has earned with no work on their part.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s not about just you or I. It’s about the game as a whole. It’s about how it’s not remotely balanced with the rest of the game. It stands alone on a pedestal, yet it’s effects are far reaching.

Balancing it would not require nerfing it into the ground. It would simply bring it more inline with the rest of the game. Steps could be taken to adjust gold sinks to compensate for it as well. Balancing it could be done in a manner that would benefit the game….ie…make it better, more fun <—-looking at you JS, more balanced….as a whole. Consideration for more players would aid the overall health of the game, not just a few and/or one’s “baby” (economic project), seen by numbers alone.

We need to think of the game as a whole and not reside in a vain abstract.

Fairness noun

Situation in which you have a benefit at the expense of others, but they don’t realize it.

All jokes aside:

When you talk about “Balancing” the TP what you are really asking for is limiting the way others are playing the game because you feel like they have an advantage over you.

Fact of the matter is that people who play dungeons have an advantage in that they can amass more dungeon tokens, people who play fractals have an advantage in that they can amass more infusions, people who play PvP have an advantage in that they can amass more [insert PvP reward name], and people who play the market have an advantage in that they can amass more gold.

There is a very important philosophical concept at play here, and that is what “equality” means to you. Some people believe that equality means “opportunity is not restricted”. Others, such as yourself, believe that equality means “all outcomes are the same”.

From my perspective, the trading post is perfectly balanced since absolutely nothing is preventing anyone from participating in it. From your perspective, the trading post is imbalanced because you don’t want to participate in it but want to have the same level of reward as those who do.

“It’s not fair!!! We must all be rewarded the same, regardless as to what we are doing!

I mean, I can make massive amounts of gold doing non TP stuff, stuff which involves zero risk, zero competition and pumps gold galore into the economy (hello inflation my old friend) but oh no that’s not enough! There are a few people on the TP operating within a higher risk, competitive, zero sum system who might be making more than me. They must be nerfed!!!".

^Three examples of the abstract mentioned. I’m more than sure more will flood in as well.

mtpelion.4562:

From my perspective, the trading post is perfectly balanced since absolutely nothing is preventing anyone from participating in it. From your perspective, the trading post is imbalanced because you don’t want to participate in it but want to have the same level of reward as those who do.

From my perspective the economy is not the game but merely a mechanism to support the game hence why I think there is a need for more equality in rewards from actually playing the game.

I have 100 people in my guild and everybody knows the difference between buy order and sell listing and many use both features. However, most of the time, they opt for the conscious choice of convenient and fast cash and purchases.

You have a guild full of idiots? Congratulations on that. Seriously, who would ever use sell now or buy now on most items, when you can get significantly higher returns with relatively no risk within 24 hours by just making a reasonable buy/sell order? I mean, you might not get the best possible price if you just throw an order out there without doing your research, but you’ll still get a better deal in most cases, and with relatively negligible waiting. I make instant purchases occasionally when I really need to craft something up right away and/or the price difference is negligible, but it’s relatively rare that I can’t wait a day for my orders to fill.

The only reason I can believe that people would regularly do instant transactions is that they don’t know better.

And again, instant purchases are not a justification for flippers, because players could still instantly purchase/sell what they wanted without a single flipper being in the game. So long as the mechanism exists there will be players who place buy/sell orders enough for everyone that wants to take them.

Your 24 hours/double return statement is also completely made up.

Oh please. I do this all the time, and I’m a complete amateur in the markets. You can’t do this with every item, obviously, and you can’t do it in infinite volume or I’d have my fortune by now, but there are plenty of items where you can set a buy order at slightly higher than the current ones, wait about 24 hours or less for some to wind up in your inventory, and list them to sell within 24 hours or less at twice the price you paid. it’s usually a bit closer than that, but it’s still a noticeable profit margin. Same goes to just buying selling what you want, if you want something, placing a purchase order that’s a good 5-10% over the highest current one is almost guaranteed to get you one within 24 hours, and you can often cut it finer than that, and the opposite is true when trying to sell anything on the TP that has more than vendor value.

I too got tired of other people making more gold than me, but instead of demanding income equality I learned how to make more gold.

“I too got tired of Warriors dealing more damage than me, but instead of demanding damage balance I rolled a Warrior.”

That is not game balance achieved.

Fact of the matter is that people who play dungeons have an advantage in that they can amass more dungeon tokens, people who play fractals have an advantage in that they can amass more infusions, people who play PvP have an advantage in that they can amass more [insert PvP reward name], and people who play the market have an advantage in that they can amass more gold.

You list those as if those different currencies were in balance. They are not. If we reverse-engineer your examples, then a player that makes hundreds of gold per month on the TP, to be balanced, dungeons would have to award hundreds of tokens per run, tens of thousands per month if you played them constantly. For the record, they do not.

There is a very important philosophical concept at play here, and that is what “equality” means to you. Some people believe that equality means “opportunity is not restricted”. Others, such as yourself, believe that equality means “all outcomes are the same”.

From my perspective, the trading post is perfectly balanced since absolutely nothing is preventing anyone from participating in it. From your perspective, the trading post is imbalanced because you don’t want to participate in it but want to have the same level of reward as those who do.

Yes, it is a fundamental difference of economic ideologies.

I believe that an equal amount of effort should produce an equal level of reward, regardless of which activity you participate in, while you seem to believe that all that matters is that everyone have the opportunity to participate i the most rewarding activities, even if they don’t enjoy them and aren’t particularly talented at them. I think my way is more fair and more fun for the majority of people, because it allows them to do the things that they enjoy and are good at in order to make their rewards, without falling behind the curve for doing so. Your way is very fun for the few people that enjoy and are good at it, but tedious and frustrating for everyone else.

mtpelion.4562:

When you talk about “Balancing” the TP what you are really asking for is limiting the way others are playing the game because you feel like they have an advantage over you.

Let’s be honest, when the clown car pulls up to talk about ‘balancing’ the TP, all that we get is some vaporous whine about how some people are making more money via the TP than others are from playing the game. At best it’s ‘I have no idea what I’m talking about but NERF IT’, at worst, ‘I don’t care if everyone is poorer, as long as it hits the TP traders HARDER’.

TP rents are rooted in hidden information. The only consistent equalizer is better tools that make markets more transparent. There will always be differences in outcomes due to differences in performance; leveling the playing field is the best you can do without causing side effects that hurt everyone.

Look I get that it’s cathartic to rant in threads like this one and that’s what’s driving these, but you you really, genuinely care about this issue, if you have a lot of passion for it, it would really behoove you to learn even just the basic principles of what you’re talking about. Having an opinion is great, but without some weight behind it you’re just some guy screaming conspiracy theories on the corner.

LordByron.8369:

99,9% players are hurt by the TP speculation…
But the economy on paper seems good so that is fine…because the 0,01% with all the wealth are compensating…

What about considering average player wealth and how it affects his game?
At that point the Whole TP system is a huge fail as diablo 3 and lineage2…..

I still fail to understand how anet can let economy rule over the game rather than the opposite.

How are players hurt by speculation?

I purchased ~100 stacks of Flawless Snowflakes during wintersday, generally between 2.95 and 3.1s. I plan on selling them spaced out over the next year, generally when prices approach 1/2 the cost of the next cheapest T6 material.

The fact that I was purchasing helped keep prices from falling as far as they could have (vendor value). I did not speculate on the other types of snowflakes because prices were already high and I didn’t see a natural sink for them — but the fact that prices were high due to speculation helps non-speculators by providing them gold for drops.

I could sell all of these snowflakes now for about 8-9s — that would give a safer return, and if I can find a good current investment it might be a better return anyway. But all 25k (well now about 23.5k, since I’ve sold 6 stacks) would be gone relatively quickly — the cheaper they are, the more they’ll be used up for crafting progression. So if I sell evenly spaced throughout the year, I’ll provide supply for people over that timeframe, which keeps the price from rising as much as it would have otherwise.

How does my speculation hurt you?

Granted, ANet could change the game so Flawless Snowflakes drop throughout the year, or drop for Wintersday in July, or make other changes that make them useless. All of these could disrupt my speculation, and some of them might make you happier.

But unless you’re arguing that speculators make it easier for ANet to skip such changes, your argument that speculators hurt others makes no sense.

(I would note that it doesn’t always work out — I bought more toxic recipes than I needed using pristine toxic spores, at a cost between 5 and 12g IIRC … the prices for those fell because they dropped from the current LS. So it goes.)

I’m not particularly rich by the standards of people who play the TP more — but unless you’re having fun, making money IRL is probably more efficient than grinding it anyway.

Ohoni.6057:

Most people do understand what a buy order and a sell listing is, they just prefer not to wait with their purchase/sale.

And how do you know this for a fact?

And how do you know that they understand how little time they would typically spend waiting to receive their payment? I don’t believe that the average player is as in touch with these systems as you believe, given how few people actually use them. I can’t believe that the majority of players in the game are so impatient that they refuse to wait 24 hours to see a doubled return on selling their item, or a halved price on acquiring some items they want. Sometimes perhaps, but not consistently enough for flippers to see the returns that they do.

The better you understand the TP the more gold you can make, its the same with other parts of the game, dungeon running, fractals, wvw, pvp.

Yes, but the amount you can make on the TP is MAGNITUDES HIGHER, which is why it’s UNBALANCED. If the TP were just one other method of making money, one no more efficient than any other, then fair enough, nobody would bother taking that away from you, but if Warriors are hitting for a hundred times more damage than any other class, then I’m sorry, the nerf bat should be coming for you.

The only “balancing” that I think would actually be helpful to players (hurting flippers doesn’t actually help — it would just make fewer people do it, making markets more illiquid) would be to make it easier for more people to participate in TP activity. I do it occasionally, but most versions are too time consuming and not fun enough for me — I don’t like micromanagement, and especially not via a slow UI. I suppose I could write code to do it via the API, but I’m not sure if that’d be within the EULA.

Having a better system for buying classes of items would also be good (e.g. I want to buy 250 masterwork greatswords in the level range 31-40 for 2s each — rather than having to do separate buy orders for each category) for those who want to salvage for profit; this would make the process a little less tedious, and would should produce slightly higher prices for people selling to them.

Having some system where you could provide a pool of capital / items and using them operate as a market maker (providing a buyer and seller of last resort) might be beneficial for some markets — I don’t think this would make sense for mithril or ectos, since there are plenty of people willing to buy and sell, but in some markets (e.g. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/26139 ) — there are fewer buy/sell offers.

Balancing TP activity by making it easier should (in theory) increase the pool of people doing it, decreasing individual profits but also improving efficiency (as someone not trying to play the market, you should be able to get something closer to a fair price).

Other than that, I tend to disagree with your proposals; we might agree on some things politically IRL, but I don’t think the arguments you’ve made translate coherently in this context, and I’m glad ANet seems disinterested in making changes of the sort you’ve proposed.

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

As far as I can tell there’s only one. It’s a major gold sink. That is something that could be remedied, so….ya…what reasons are there?

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

As far as I can tell there’s only one. It’s a major gold sink. That is something that could be remedied, so….ya…what reasons are there?

I will start this by saying that I’m not a TP flipper/trader/speculator/whatever. I’m one of those “idiots” that sell what I have at the highest buying price, simply because I’d personally rather be playing the game than formulating a sales plan. Besides, I don’t like to tie up my money with selling fees.

Having said that, I have to ask… how would you remedy the gold sink issue? And before you answer, remember that it has to be done in such a way that the both the casual and serious player can agree on.

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

As far as I can tell there’s only one. It’s a major gold sink. That is something that could be remedied, so….ya…what reasons are there?

Problem is the so called profit potential from the trading at least is due almost entirely to player psychology. They choose to use is as a pawn shop or store front rather than a flea market. They choose immediacy over coin. You can’t “code” around that. The players are creating a market where they will pay for immediacy and a few are willing to step in and provide that service. And competition among those who provide that service both raises the buy price and lowers the sell price for an item. They earn less per item than the players they bought the item from, they just make it up in volume.

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

As far as I can tell there’s only one. It’s a major gold sink. That is something that could be remedied, so….ya…what reasons are there?

In theory — making it easier to participate as a market maker, or to use other trading strategies (so that more people are competing for the same profit) could have the effect of making markets better for non-traders, reducing trader’s profit, and making trading less tedious for those who want to be traders (i.e. play the market for profit).

Other than that, I don’t see how any of the proposals to reduce profits from trading would actually make the market better for non-trader participants.

@Ohoni: I’m sure you were just speaking in hyperbolic terms and didn’t mean it as an insult, but my girlfriend IS one of those who understands the difference between buy/sell orders, but will sometimes just buy straight from sell orders if she wants it NOW. She’s not an idiot; to her, it’s more a case of “it’s just a game, and my game time is limited. Spending more currency now so I can enjoy my shiny immediately and have more time with it is a fair trade-off”.

Yes, it’s not the smartest financial move (and I do tease her about it sometimes), but people are free to make their own choice as to whether the immediate gratification is worth the extra cost. I personally think that technology first adopters who wait in line for hours and pay marked up costs for new gadgets are silly, but I’m not going to try and change their buying habits as it’s their choice.

Moreover: THIS IS A GAME!

As such, three priorities:
1. A sufficiently critical mass of players remains engaged.
2. Gameplay facilitates the ability of that critical mass to keep accomplishing new things.
3. Anet makes money.

The TP helps all three. Sure, its problems (and consequences of it allowing flipping and speculation) might annoy some players, but at the end of the day it supports the above three principles. And those principles trump all.

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

With the exception of making the trading post easier to use with more information available, there are not any remedies that are not just as bad, or worse, for the unsophisticated user of the trading post.

I’m sure that you were looking for some sort of moralizing answer (as dangerous as it is to moralize about economic outcomes) but any sort of ethical argument takes a backseat to what can and cannot actually be done. If you have a solution that would make the TP less profitable that would not simultaneously take time and money out of the pockets of your average player, I’m all ears.

Having said that, I have to ask… how would you remedy the gold sink issue? And before you answer, remember that it has to be done in such a way that the both the casual and serious player can agree on.

It’s hard to speculate on gold sinks without access to the back end data on money coming in through various methods and money going out through various methods, but plenty of other MMOs manage it with less emphasis on market fees than in GW2. They can just add more things with gold costs to them that the average player would need. I imagine that Thermocatalytic Reagents are as much of a gold sink as market fees.

And nobody’s even hinting at removing the market or its fees entirely, whatever they do the market would still exist in mostly the same form as far as most players are concerned, so they’d still be taking in plenty from the 15% cut, just a slightly lower volume in certain areas. Remember that every item a flipper flips, was placed by someone and bought by someone, at at most any change that removes flippers would just halve the volume of trades, probably much less.

@Ohoni: I’m sure you were just speaking in hyperbolic terms and didn’t mean it as an insult, but my girlfriend IS one of those who understands the difference between buy/sell orders, but will sometimes just buy straight from sell orders if she wants it NOW. She’s not an idiot; to her, it’s more a case of “it’s just a game, and my game time is limited. Spending more currency now so I can enjoy my shiny immediately and have more time with it is a fair trade-off”.

You really should explain to her that the item will be there for her tomorrow, and that sometimes delayed gratification is worth it.

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

As far as I can tell there’s only one. It’s a major gold sink. That is something that could be remedied, so….ya…what reasons are there?

I will glady explain to you exactly why such “normalization” is a nonsense, but first you have to do something if you want a detailed answer.

Explain to us all exactly what the profit potential for x number of non TP players is and then explain to us the profit potential for y number of TP players is. Give us specifics so we know you are not spamming up the place with hyperbole.

Then perhaps you would be so kind as to give us concise and cogent reasons as to why any disparity you find in your evidence is a bad thing for the economy.

Once you have done the above I will gladly point out (in list format) exactly why such deviations in potential gold returns across the system can and more importantly should exist.

I have the answer ready and waiting, but I am not going to waste my time pointing out specifics until the anti TP camp starts coming out with their own, specific, evidence based arguments, as opposed to the gibberish, moralising hyperbole which has been trotted out time and time again thus far.

Once you have done the above I will gladly point out (in list format) exactly why such deviations in potential gold returns across the system can and more importantly should exist.

I have the answer ready and waiting, but I am not going to waste my time pointing out specifics until the anti TP camp starts coming out with their own, specific, evidence based arguments, as opposed to the gibberish, moralising hyperbole which has been trotted out time and time again thus far.

Your ivory tower approach to all this is a great way to win sympathy. I imagine you rushed out to get the Monocles when they were still relatively affordable to us proles.

Ohoni.6057:

Once you have done the above I will gladly point out (in list format) exactly why such deviations in potential gold returns across the system can and more importantly should exist.

I have the answer ready and waiting, but I am not going to waste my time pointing out specifics until the anti TP camp starts coming out with their own, specific, evidence based arguments, as opposed to the gibberish, moralising hyperbole which has been trotted out time and time again thus far.

Your ivory tower approach to all this is a great way to win sympathy. I imagine you rushed out to get the Monocles when they were still relatively affordable to us proles.

I couldn’t care less about winning sympathy and what I may or may not have bought in the past has absolutely nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand.

I made the reasonable request that a specific, clear and evidence based position is given before a specific, clear and evidence based response is warranted.

Ohoni.6057:

Your ivory tower approach to all this is a great way to win sympathy. I imagine you rushed out to get the Monocles when they were still relatively affordable to us proles.

And your “just stick it to the 1%” approach isn’t going to garner much support either.

linuxotaku.4731:

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me ask to any of ya’ll (I know y’all, but not where I live) what legitimate reasons do you have that profit potential from trading/speculating/etc should not be brought more in line with the rest of the game?

As far as I can tell there’s only one. It’s a major gold sink. That is something that could be remedied, so….ya…what reasons are there?

In theory — making it easier to participate as a market maker, or to use other trading strategies (so that more people are competing for the same profit) could have the effect of making markets better for non-traders, reducing trader’s profit, and making trading less tedious for those who want to be traders (i.e. play the market for profit).

Other than that, I don’t see how any of the proposals to reduce profits from trading would actually make the market better for non-trader participants.

Thank you for actually answering the question. Most posters here will not answer questions as we can see from most of the replies so far.

Essence Snow.3194:

Thank you for actually answering the question. Most posters here will not answer questions as we can see from most of the replies so far.

I do hope you are not refering to me, for two reasons. First of all I have said repeatedly I would glady answer your questions should you bother to provide more detail. Secondly you have avoided answering the questions needed to provide that detail, as such bemoaning others for supposedly dodging questions is somewhat hypocritical.

If you honestly want people to justify some perceived issue with potential gold gain, why is it so difficult for you to go into more specific details on that issue?

What the debate should be:

Poster One: “The pve player can earn a maximum of x gold (provides evidence). The TP player can earn a maximum of y (provides evidence). Even though a much larger amount of players can earn x and only a much smaller amount of players can earn y, this potential disparity is harmful to the game because as we can see from the evidence z, the pve players can’t afford stuffz. Now how can you justify this?”
Poster Two: “Thanks for the clear, specific evidence. It can be justified because…”

What the debate is:

Poster One: “It’s unfair, how can you justify the disparity you smelly 1%ers, it’s like magnitudes and stuff!!”
Poster Two: “CSB”

Yes I am referring to you and many like you. Instead of answering the question you flipped it. This is typical of political debates where one side is unwilling to answer thus they evade…and it’s blatantly obvious.

Since I asked 1st, I’ll ask again and I’ll go one further, by agreeing to answer your question after you’ve answered mine, but somehow I doubt you will. The ball is in your court. Will you answer and surprise me or will you predictably evade again?

Essence Snow.3194:

Yes I am referring to you and many like you. Instead of answering the question you flipped it. This is typical of political debates where one side is unwilling to answer thus they evade…and it’s blatantly obvious.

Since I asked 1st, I’ll ask again and I’ll go one further, by agreeing to answer your question after you’ve answered mine, but somehow I doubt you will. The ball is in your court. Will you answer and surprise me or will you predictably evade again?

I’ll list them and not flesh them out as you are frankly copping out.

1. One system is competitive, the other is not.
2. One system is zero sum, the other is not.
3. One system is has a cap/restrictions on how many people can earn how x amount of gold, the other does not.
4. One system is a gold sink, the other is an inflationary driving gold pump.
5. One system is in flux/is player driven with no set average profit, the other is stable.
6. One system is mid-high risk, the other is zero risk.
7. There is zero evidence given that suggests that the whale traders are imbalancing the economy.
8. There is zero evidence to suggest that the TP in it’s current incarnation is bad for the economy.
9. There is zero evidence to suggest that due to the current set up, pve players are unable to afford luxury items.
10. If you take the normalization argument to it’s logical conclusion then all systems regardless of risk, competition or any other factor need to have the same potential upside. Which is lunacy.
11. People can avoid paying flippers using limit orders if they wish.
12. There is nothing stopping any player using the TP to attempt to profit.

Given that:

1. There has been no evidence presented thus far which demonstrates exactly what the disparity in potential is.
2. There has been no evidence given which shows how the gold made by the people on the TP has had a negative impact upon the game.
3. We are comparing a higher risk, competitive, zero sum gold sink system with a zero risk, non competitive infinite gold pump system.

Then it is as clear as day why any talk of nomalization is ridiculous. Attempting to normalize the profit potential for the apex players within two completely disparate systems just to satisfy some moral ideal (when all players have access to said potential) is utterly insane.

LordByron.8369:

We need an economy CDI in GENERAL section…..or we won t go anywhere….

Because the best way to govern sheep is to put the wolves in charge, right?

A Trading Post CDI in the General Forum would simply be greedy people looking for ways to hurt others who have more fake money than they do. Almost exactly like how real life works only with more discussion of why killing people should pay more money than it does.

Fenrir.3609:

I’ll list them and not flesh them out as you are frankly copping out.

1. One system is competitive, the other is not. Is this really a valid justification?
2. One system is zero sum, the other is not.This applies how?
3. One system is has a cap/restrictions on how many people can earn how x amount of gold, the other does not.Anet puts restrictions on every activity if deemed to produce to much.
4. One system is a gold sink, the other is an inflationary driving gold pump.Measures can be taken to control influx of gold.
5. One system is in flux/is player driven with no set average profit, the other is stable. Not sure what your point here is.
6. One system is mid-high risk, the other is zero risk.TP risk can be minimized via use of 3rd party tools. These range from things like Spidy, spreadsheets, notifiers, and even bots. Other activities can include risks as events can fail and armor can incur costs (although minimal it’s not zero risk)
7. There is zero evidence given that suggests that the whale traders are imbalancing the economy. While they may not be the sole factor, they with out question are a contributing factor.
8. There is zero evidence to suggest that the TP in it’s current incarnation is bad for the economy. Unfortunately we are not privy to the numbers. (I suspect for good reason….it would be scary to see the imbalance)
9. There is zero evidence to suggest that due to the current set up, pve players are unable to afford luxury items. By all means play pve and see what kind of rewards that’ll get you if you want proof.
10. If you take the normalization argument to it’s logical conclusion then all systems regardless of risk, competition or any other factor need to have the same potential upside. Which is lunacy. * They don’t need the same potential. They however do need to be in the same ball park. Playing the TP is not even remotely close to the rest of the “systems”.*
11. People can avoid paying flippers using limit orders if they wish. The game reward structure is set up around the trading post.
12. There is nothing stopping any player using the TP to attempt to profit. There however are things stopping players from exponential profit potential in all other activities.

Given that:

1. There has been no evidence presented thus far which demonstrates exactly what the disparity in potential is. exponential vs linear
2. There has been no evidence given which shows how the gold made by the people on the TP has had a negative impact upon the game. creates an ever expanding wealth disparity
3. We are comparing a higher risk, competitive, zero sum system with a zero risk, non competitive infinite gold pump system. Again trading post risk can and is minimized by use of external tools and the “gold pump system” can be managed according to need as Anet controls most variables.

Then it is as clear as day why any talk of nomalization is ridiculous. Attempting to normalize the profit potential for the apex players within two completely disparate systems just to satisfy some moral ideal (when all players have access to said potential) is utterly insane. Is it really?

The profit potential of most activities is limited by direct game mechanics. Trading however is not. Trading is only limited by indirect means. Thus most activities profit potential is linear where trading is exponential.

What does this do? It creates an ever widening wealth disparity between trading and everything else.

Why does that matter? Anet has decided to focus the reward structure in this game on gold. There inlies why continually increasing gold disparities matters. In this genre of game rewards are vital and player population is vital. A major aspect of player satisfaction is perceived fairness and a major factor of population is player satisfaction. This comes into play in games where if a player feels they are getting the short end of the stick (so to say) they can and do simply stop playing. This is not what we want. We want to take measures to retain as many possible players as possible and not funnel players into one area/aspect of the game. One of those measure applies to smoothing out inequalities. We see this across the board with only one major exception. We see it when one class is ridiculously OP (over powered), when one is ridiculously UP (under powered). We see it when one area offers an unbalanced amount of reward compared to the rest. We see it time and time again for good reason.

If we don’t smooth out inequalities we effectively funnel players or worse chance losing players.

There is also the gold seller/bot issue, but that is a whole other can of worms.