[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Do we have too many currencies?
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I’ll explain my personal experiences with this, if it possibly clarifies anything, fine. I completely believe that personal rewards and earnings in this game are poor. That is based on my overall experiences in other MMO’s. This also based on the fact that for about an hours worth of work in a RL job i can get more G than i can in a month or more of just playing the game (that’s if i want to drop 50 bucks). That is an experience i can’t match in any other game i’ve played.
I really do hope you realize why this is the case, right? (WHAT OTHER GAMES ALLOW YOU TO CONVERT IN-GAME GOLD INTO MICROTRANSACTION PURCHASES. THIS IS A GOOD THING.)
But, an extra gold an hour based on all the other factors i mentioned is pretty significant. Especially when comparing such a low overall earning potential. You’re pointing at a %50 increase in earnings and you don’t find that significant… I dunno what to say to that.
You don’t know what to say to it because you selectively choose to ignore my sections of my posts in order to fit your arguments (Something you’ve chosen to done repeatedly.)
1. I was making a comparison of an averaged dungeon run vs an optimized Orr event run. You’re chosen to purposefully ignore it, but I also have numbers of for more optimal dungeon runs of AC and CoF, which are of similar profitability.
2. Did I say it wasn’t significant? No, it obviously a difference. However, is it different enough to make earnings of 2G “poor” “horrible” or “lacking?” Apparently according to your definitions they do, but I find your penchant for maximum efficiency incredulous.
My LFG spam and standing around waiting for a run has to do strictly with guild members. I don’t PUG, I’d rather play with people invested in the run, which is rare among PUG’s, than waste my time with a kick at the end boss or a fail run because some angry farmer doesn’t like someones build and rage quits.
The big differences with doing the world events are really this, they are guaranteed earnings (i’ve gone with groups into AC and didn’t even make it through the first room, sad as that is), they rarely (besides grenth) fail and i don’t need to wait for a group to get together to do them. All this convenience comes at a better rate of return than the frustrations typically associated with dungeon runs.
You know why this argumentation is so utterly unconvincing?
Because you choose to highlight problems dungeon runs have, while completely ignoring problems World Events have. You’re placing a significant weight on the problems of the former, while dismissing the problems of the latter, without bothering to actually quantifying the effects these issues have on the overall profitability.
I have repeated the biggest issue World Event farming has on efficiency (random spawn times). There’s also problems of DCing during events or instances of overflow.
But you know what, lets actually calculate how much you can earn through world events. Take my previous assumption of an average of 35s per World Boss. Not including the Temple stuff, Timers have 8 bosses on its timer. That equals 2G80s. Are you seriously saying you can fit all 8 events within….an hour? 2 hours? Take 2 hours, considering you got incredibly lucky with all the spawns. ~3G in 2 hours? Man, what a horrible reward, according to your logic?
It has nothing to do with randomness
But you said:
The rates are horrible because they are based on if you get lucky with either salvage or the mystic toilet.
Nothing to do with randomness, eh?
Due to length cont:
I’d be “happier” without all this excess “currency” or if they want to continue this thing, at least give people some better exchange options. The exchange rate of activities in this game are all over the place. It’s just a mess right now and all these extra “currencies” don’t make it any better. All the facts you’re giving me don’t make it sound any better either.
This is what you posted originally:
meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway
In my eyes 1 practically valueless currency is excessive.
You try to justify your reasoning that currency is excessive when it’s valueless. Which I call bullkitten on. How much gold are you earning to make 32s “entirely useless?” You then went on to imply that anything suboptimal to maximized efficiency farming is “horrible” and “poor” and “practically valueless.” Sure, your personal opinion, but again based on this conversation I am imagining you as a hardcore farmer with nothing but contempt for anything suboptimal.
Also it’s already been explained in the thread why the dungeon token system exists: to award dungeon-unique rewards in a non-RNG method. Do you disagree with this? Or do you want this accomplishment diluted with some kind of a token exchange?
On a very related note, do you think Legendaries should be account-bound? Do you think it’s okay that it can be bought/sold with gold?
I’ll explain my personal experiences with this, if it possibly clarifies anything, fine. I completely believe that personal rewards and earnings in this game are poor. That is based on my overall experiences in other MMO’s. This also based on the fact that for about an hours worth of work in a RL job i can get more G than i can in a month or more of just playing the game (that’s if i want to drop 50 bucks). That is an experience i can’t match in any other game i’ve played.
I really do hope you realize why this is the case, right? (WHAT OTHER GAMES ALLOW YOU TO CONVERT IN-GAME GOLD INTO MICROTRANSACTION PURCHASES. THIS IS A GOOD THING.)
What exactly are you emphasizing here? It’s good to keep the player base poor so they need to convert gems (RL currency) into gold, so they don’t need to farm for months on end to get a reward that’s really one of the only end game goals in the whole ball of wax? That’s a good thing? The economy is tight, not necessarily a bad thing, but the focus is so much on the journey that it losses sight of a goal. Yes, there are a few lucky ducks out there, but that’s exactly what the end goal is in the game, pure luck. That to me isn’t a good structure in the long run and arguably the game is bleeding players for it. Not to mention they keep adding this luck of the drawn thing…
But, an extra gold an hour based on all the other factors i mentioned is pretty significant. Especially when comparing such a low overall earning potential. You’re pointing at a %50 increase in earnings and you don’t find that significant… I dunno what to say to that.
You don’t know what to say to it because you selectively choose to ignore my sections of my posts in order to fit your arguments (Something you’ve chosen to done repeatedly.)
1. I was making a comparison of an averaged dungeon run vs an optimized Orr event run. You’re chosen to purposefully ignore it, but I also have numbers of for more optimal dungeon runs of AC and CoF, which are of similar profitability.
2. Did I say it wasn’t significant? No, it obviously a difference. However, is it different enough to make earnings of 2G “poor” “horrible” or “lacking?” Apparently according to your definitions they do, but I find your penchant for maximum efficiency incredulous.
I have no maximum efficiency rating in mind, hell i just play and not worry about the money. You seem to be the one focused on my term of practically valueless and pointing at the numbers, I actually don’t give a kitten. Nor am i ignoring anything, i actually stated that what you used as examples are significant. In fact, so much so, that people actually opt to do world events because it’s so significantly better/easier to do so. I’m in a couple guilds and that’s pretty much all they do, farm orr, do world events and on rare occasion do a dungeon when someone needs tokens or achievements. Anet even had to cripple the world chests just to get people away from doing maw every 20 minutes. That’s not a fix either, i know at least 30 people that quit the game due to this kind of stuff.
The big differences with doing the world events are really this, they are guaranteed earnings (i’ve gone with groups into AC and didn’t even make it through the first room, sad as that is), they rarely (besides grenth) fail and i don’t need to wait for a group to get together to do them. All this convenience comes at a better rate of return than the frustrations typically associated with dungeon runs.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
You know why this argumentation is so utterly unconvincing?
Because you choose to highlight problems dungeon runs have, while completely ignoring problems World Events have. You’re placing a significant weight on the problems of the former, while dismissing the problems of the latter, without bothering to actually quantifying the effects these issues have on the overall profitability.
I have repeated the biggest issue World Event farming has on efficiency (random spawn times). There’s also problems of DCing during events or instances of overflow.
But you know what, lets actually calculate how much you can earn through world events. Take my previous assumption of an average of 35s per World Boss. Not including the Temple stuff, Timers have 8 bosses on its timer. That equals 2G80s. Are you seriously saying you can fit all 8 events within….an hour? 2 hours? Take 2 hours, considering you got incredibly lucky with all the spawns. ~3G in 2 hours? Man, what a horrible reward, according to your logic?[/qoute]
So all along, you keep giving me calculations and saying i’m an obsessive farmer. There’s actually 10 world boss events, and there are about 25 quests chains in between, you can do the math, i just know what a good majority of players are doing around me. It’s pretty much what they all seem to favor doing over dungeons, most of them have what they want from the dungeons. Sure CoF p1, let’s do that 20 times a day and that’s clearly broken.
I’d be “happier” without all this excess “currency” or if they want to continue this thing, at least give people some better exchange options. The exchange rate of activities in this game are all over the place. It’s just a mess right now and all these extra “currencies” don’t make it any better. All the facts you’re giving me don’t make it sound any better either.
This is what you posted originally:
meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway
In my eyes 1 practically valueless currency is excessive.
You try to justify your reasoning that currency is excessive when it’s valueless. Which I call bullkitten on. How much gold are you earning to make 32s “entirely useless?” You then went on to imply that anything suboptimal to maximized efficiency farming is “horrible” and “poor” and “practically valueless.” Sure, your personal opinion, but again based on this conversation I am imagining you as a hardcore farmer with nothing but contempt for anything suboptimal.
Also it’s already been explained in the thread why the dungeon token system exists: to award dungeon-unique rewards in a non-RNG method. Do you disagree with this? Or do you want this accomplishment diluted with some kind of a token exchange?
I’d like to bolster a reason for people to actually want to do them, since maybe the extra work in getting things going and completing them would actually be worth it.
On a very related note, do you think Legendaries should be account-bound? Do you think it’s okay that it can be bought/sold with gold?
You can call bullkitten on it all you want, you can toss around numbers too. Simply stating they have some value (%50 less value in most cases), when there are clearly better options for earning more, really says nothing to bolster your points. My wife sat afk (family dropped by) while her pet auto attacked at SB and got final rest which she promptly sold for 5g, she was afk all of 5 minutes. This stuff happens constantly with these world events, it’s a problem, these currencies are worthless once you get what you want, since there are clearly better ways to get better rewards, it’s not rocket surgery. Maybe you’re spending too much time crunching numbers? I dunno.
Don’t try and call me out on numbers, i clearly don’t have them, it’s been my experience, this is what the majority of folks around me are doing
No, i don’t think they should be able to be sold, i.e. legendaries.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
It’s good to keep the player base poor so they need to convert gems (RL currency) into gold, so they don’t need to farm for months on end to get a reward that’s really one of the only end game goals in the whole ball of wax? That’s a good thing?
If players can earn more gold in one hour in-game as opposed to one hour IRL, there is absolutely no reason for players to buy gems. ANet is the only MMO which allows players to use in-game gold for microtransactions. Which is great, but they also have to make the gem store profitable. And a profitable gem store is a happy Anet which is a happy playerbase.
I have no maximum efficiency rating in mind, hell i just play and not worry about the money. You seem to be the one focused on my term of practically valueless and pointing at the numbers, I actually don’t give a kitten.
Which is funny, because you’re the one whining and kittening about how tokens are “valueless.” (PS, they’re not! I’m focused on pointing at the numbers BECAUSE THEY ARE FACTS) Your argument is that this value is practically valueless because it’s “not efficient” (somehow). Which makes you seem like you do care about efficiency.
So all along, you keep giving me calculations and saying i’m an obsessive farmer. There’s actually 10 world boss events
http://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/events.php?serverKey=104&langKey=en
Shatterer, Teq, Jormag, Maw, SB, FE, Wurm, and Golem. Megadestroyer, last time I checked, doesn’t spawn a rare (Not to mention the fact that it takes like 30min to do because no one does it). There’s I believe 20+ World Events that drop rares, but ignoring Temples, only 8 are actually tracked by this timer, as I clearly prefaced in my post.
Get your facts straight. You continue to dilute your arguments with misinformation.
You can call bullkitten on it all you want, you can toss around numbers too. Simply stating they have some value (%50 less value in most cases), when there are clearly better options for earning more, really says nothing to bolster your points. My wife sat afk (family dropped by) while her pet auto attacked at SB and got final rest which she promptly sold for 5g, she was afk all of 5 minutes. This stuff happens constantly with these world events, it’s a problem, these currencies are worthless once you get what you want, since there are clearly better ways to get better rewards, it’s not rocket surgery. Maybe you’re spending too much time crunching numbers? I dunno.
I marvel at your ability to consider the MF and salvaging “horrible” because of RNG and in the same breathe hold up your wife obtaining Final Rest (RNG) as an example of why World Bosses are profitable. Again, I really hope you see this hypocrisy.
Do you understand why this discussion is so frustrating, and why I keep on calling you out? It’s because you insist on using your personal anecdotes as “evidence” while assuming your experiences apply to the entire playerbase. You toss words like “clearly” and “it’s not rocket surgery” with nothing to back it up except for anecdotal evidence.
You seem to have a problem with my numbers. Do you disagree with my numbers? Are you seriously able to hit all 8 World Events in 2 hours? Again, on average a 30 min dungeon run gets you around 1G. How lucky do you have to be to hit 3 World Events in 30 minutes?
But I understand your definition of “worthless” now. If there’s something clearly better ways to get better rewards, then it’s worthless. Got it. I guess everything under the sun aside from CoF p1 is worthless to you then?
No, i don’t think they should be able to be sold, i.e. legendaries.
Ah, so you think Legendaries should be exclusive rewards, but dungeon skins shouldn’t? (per your complain about CM/Arah token exchanging.) Just like how I think Legendaries should be exclusive to those who play the game (account-bound) I think dungeons should be exclusive to those who play the dungeon. You’re flip-flopping in your philosophy when it suits you.
Hey, more anecdotal evidence for you. I came home about an hour ago. I’ve done Golem and Teq so far, and missed out on Jormag because of Overflow. 2 rares in an hour, with nothing but dead time in between. Efficient farming!
I’m done with this discussion, by the way. Until you can bring to the discussion something more substantive than anecdotal evidence and personal opinions, and until you can cease flip-flopping on your own points (random is horrible! No, random is good!) (Valueless because bad efficiency! No, I don’t care about efficiency!) this conversation is at an end.
(edited by Ursan.7846)
Hey, more anecdotal evidence for you. I came home about an hour ago. I’ve done Golem and Teq so far, and missed out on Jormag because of Overflow. 2 rares in an hour, with nothing but dead time in between. Efficient farming!
I’m done with this discussion, by the way. Until you can bring to the discussion something more substantive than anecdotal evidence and personal opinions, and until you can cease flip-flopping on your own points (random is horrible! No, random is good!) (Valueless because bad efficiency! No, I don’t care about efficiency!) this conversation is at an end.
It’s good that you and i are at this impasse, maybe it’ll provide some good feedback, maybe it’ll just be a confusing wall of text, who knows.
I’m not a farmer, I personally don’t use my playtime to decide what makes me the most money an hour, I play because i enjoy it, but that enjoyment is waning. Yes, I think some RNG is fine (it’s pretty much the staple in many MMO’s) and yes, in turn, i also feel there is an excessive amount of RNG in GW2, I can be of 2 minds on it.
I have made some outrageous claims using terms like practically valueless or completely useless, but it’s how i feel about what i’d hoped to be more rewarding returns on my time investment, it’s not about hard number, never was. It’s actually only ever going to be about my opinion and i’m not really alone in it. Many of those people i play with actually have regiments that yield much better returns than your example above and i’ve run them a few times, enough to know that dungeon rewards, versus effort are broken.
I used the example of my wifes experience, since that’s how MANY people i play with end up experiencing things, it’s broken, don’t ask me about facts to back it up, it just is. I can make these claims all day long, i don’t need numbers and facts, this isn’t a court case against anyone. I’m not out to hang ANet for their choices.
No, i don’t think they should be able to be sold, i.e. legendaries.
Ah, so you think Legendaries should be exclusive rewards, but dungeon skins shouldn’t? (per your complain about CM/Arah token exchanging.) Just like how I think Legendaries should be exclusive to those who play the game (account-bound) I think dungeons should be exclusive to those who play the dungeon. You’re flip-flopping in your philosophy when it suits you.
First and foremost legendaries aren’t really exclusive rewards, i understand your point in that they require doing X dungeon for the gifts, but they are a culmination of things that need to be done in order to achieve. There’s actually a pretty broad difference between gated behind one piece of content exclusively and gated behind almost all content found in the game. Nothing wrong with the goal there being tied to the person achieving them.
I’d actually like to see dungeons giving even more random, exclusive rewards. At least then they’d seem more rewarding to tackle. The token idea seemed sound to me at launch. Yet now it just seems like a waste, simply since that’s the primary reward and when a player no longer wants/needs them, they seem practically valueless and basically useless. A good example of this change in direction is the molten facility, or madking. They offered exclusive rewards, but not so exclusive that they hold such a bad value to a player. The gauntlets were actually a nice touch since they were tied with the dungeon and it’s limited time in getting them will probably be a nostalgia thing, much like the stuff you got in gw1 for short term events. However, if the dungeon dropped the same junk most dungeons do and all i got where those gloves, I’d of done it once, maybe twice and been done with it.
Anyway, i respect your opinions, thanks for the dance.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Sounds to me like most people complaining about too many currencies havent played an MMO before. Far fewer currencies here than other games Im used to.
Events and tiers require different currencies otherwise why bother doing something different? Would you rather be buying gear and mats with gold instead of karma? lolNO
I don’t mind having more currencies as long as they follow the same format as gold, karma and laurels – ie, they don’t take up inventory/bank space like dungeon tokens. We have enough of those.
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