Increasing trading post tax.
Welcome to Fallacy Wars 2.
19 pages and counting, and the focus of this thread has bounced around greatly. It went from asking for a punishment for rich players, to wealth spreading, to improving Precursor drops. Most all the complainers keep using fallacies as their arguments, so it’s hard to get to the core of what they’re advocating for.
I’ll point out the following as simple as possible. Hopefully the complainers will understand:
1) No problem has been shown to exist.
1a) Personal preferences are not proof a problem exists.
2) You cannot compare quest rewards to TP profits. One is a loot from a predetermined table upon completion of a task. The other is movement on an open market with prices determined by Supply and Demand.
2b) In addition, the purpose for rewards are the completion of a task, while the purpose of the TP is part market, part Gold Sink.
3) Tax targeting rich players is unfair, and harms the economy
4) Jealousy is not a valid reason to punish players who have more than you.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Ok first of all,
Luxury items that are also endgame items matter, because they eat so many good in their creation, and effect the value of connected goods. right now id say a lot of items prices are determined directly by their value in the equation of making legendaries, and ascended.2nd of all forget the idea that its only the richest of the barons, Its more like the top 20% of people or something.
The rarest items in the game do not exist in quantities large enough for 100% of the players to have them, or even the top 50%. The majority of players cannot explore the highest levels of fractals, or compete at the highest levels of PvP tournaments. It’s not a problem that rare items are only available to a small portion of the players because they are supposed to be available only to a small portion of the players.
I think the problem is “if there is any”, is people don’t like the economy, which is part of the game.
You kind of have to care if your players like your game or not. That being said, there is no proof the people complaining is the majority.
Which brings to my question. Why don’t the other 1000 mmorpg games have people spam complaint about TP Baron on their game forum. Sure people complaint about P2W or gem store being too expensive, but I never heard people complain about the TP or economy(well beside diablo 3, but everyone know how broken it was).
I think the problem is “if there is any”, is people don’t like the economy, which is part of the game.
You kind of have to care if your players like your game or not. That being said, there is no proof the people complaining is the majority.
Which brings to my question. Why don’t the other 1000 mmorpg games have people spam complaint about TP Baron on their game forum. Sure people complaint about P2W or gem store being too expensive, but I never heard people complain about the TP or economy(well beside diablo 3, but everyone know how broken it was).
Simply this: its a game. And a game should not mess up with real world economy rules. Players just want to have fun. No taxes or other negative real world features…
Most of the markets are single-server, so players only see 1/10th or less of the market and there is a lot less competition because a rare item for sale on one server is only fought over by a fraction of the players instead of everyone in the game, or at least in that hemisphere.
Also, just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Most forums probably don’t have sections dedicated to the auctions/markets and it’s pretty common to see complaints about trying to make money crafting, how expensive crafting mats are or how much competition there is to sell things, etc.
I’ve been playing SWTOR the last few weeks (I can’t quit that game permanently, I just love fighting with lightsabers too much) and if you think crafting mats are expensive here, they are 100x worse in that game. And their cash shop stuff can be sold in game, you can spend $50 and turn it into the equivalent of thousands of gold… and it’s enough to level one or two crafting professions from 1 to 400.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Simply this: its a game. And a game should not mess up with real world economy rules. Players just want to have fun. No taxes or other negative real world features…
And it’s John’s job to make sure that players DO have fun by balancing the value of Gold and individual items. I’m sure you wouldn’t be having much fun if a single Vial of Powerful Blood or Vicious Claw cost 25 Gold each.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Most of the markets are single-server, so players only see 1/10th or less of the market and there is a lot less competition because a rare item for sale on one server is only fought over by a fraction of the players instead of everyone in the game, or at least in that hemisphere.
Also, just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Most forums probably don’t have sections dedicated to the auctions/markets and it’s pretty common to see complaints about trying to make money crafting, how expensive crafting mats are or how much competition there is to sell things, etc.
That’s what I thought of, also the buy order/sell order system kind of favor the flipper. Not to mention all the limited event item. And how price of items keep changing with every update (which is like every 2 weeks).
And you said it’s common to see people complain about making money, crafting, or selling crafted. Which is valid. But the complaint never is about the “flippers”. There seemed to be an overwhelmed complaint directed to “flippers” in GW2 which is uncommon in other games.
Simply this: its a game. And a game should not mess up with real world economy rules. Players just want to have fun. No taxes or other negative real world features…
And it’s John’s job to make sure that players DO have fun by balancing the value of Gold and individual items. I’m sure you wouldn’t be having much fun if a single Vial of Powerful Blood or Vicious Claw cost 25 Gold each.
They wouldnt. Human nature would force people to farm those items to capitalize on their price (much like some TP “barons” already do), and do so in such quantity that the price of items would drop to a point where the supply outweighs the demand and suppresses the price.
As much as people complaining would hate to admit, and probably ignore, is the fact that anything that can impact the “barons” would have a far more immediate and greater impact on everyone else.
That’s what I thought of, also the buy order/sell order system kind of favor the flipper. Not to mention all the limited event item. And how price of items keep changing with every update (which is like every 2 weeks).
And you said it’s common to see people complain about making money, crafting, or selling crafted. Which is valid. But the complaint never is about the “flippers”. There seemed to be an overwhelmed complaint directed to “flippers” in GW2 which is uncommon in other games.
True, I can’t think of an MMO where you can “order” items and wait for the order to be filled. Some are basic “buy it now” marketplaces, some are auctions where you have to wait for the listing to end, some are a combination of both.
Flipping is not so obvious in other games, supply is far more limited because of the single-server nature of those markets. If there are ten listings of crafting mats and someone buys them all, then relists at twice the price, someone who comes along an hour later won’t even know that the mats were half that price a short while ago.
But it’s a lot more efficient, and more obvious, the way this TP is set up. You can see that the highest current offer is 10g, the lowest seller is offering the same item for 15g, and decide whether you want to wait for a deal or buy it now.
It’s a lot harder to see what’s going on with the markets in Rift, for instance, where I can buy something for 10g on server A, transfer to server B and sell it for 40g and still be the lowest seller there.
Basically, other games are in even worse situations, but players don’t know this because most of them don’t compare prices from one server to another. Ignorance is bliss…
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Simply this: its a game. And a game should not mess up with real world economy rules. Players just want to have fun. No taxes or other negative real world features…
And it’s John’s job to make sure that players DO have fun by balancing the value of Gold and individual items. I’m sure you wouldn’t be having much fun if a single Vial of Powerful Blood or Vicious Claw cost 25 Gold each.
They wouldnt. Human nature would force people to farm those items to capitalize on their price (much like some TP “barons” already do), and do so in such quantity that the price of items would drop to a point where the supply outweighs the demand and suppresses the price.
As much as people complaining would hate to admit, and probably ignore, is the fact that anything that can impact the “barons” would have a far more immediate and greater impact on everyone else.
That true. But consider that if someone like John wasn’t there to manage the inflation of in game currencies. That 25 Gold that I referred to could be the equivalent to the 45 Silver that the T6 items are hovering at now. In that case, the rich are still rich, and the rest would still struggle.
People don’t know how good we have it in GW2. Our in game economist prevents this game from collapsing like D3.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
As much as people complaining would hate to admit, and probably ignore, is the fact that anything that can impact the “barons” would have a far more immediate and greater impact on everyone else.
That is why the solutions proposed here in the forums won’t work, they are focused on “punish the guy making lots of money” without being able to separate that person from the general population, so you end up punishing everyone who uses the TP.
As much as people complaining would hate to admit, and probably ignore, is the fact that anything that can impact the “barons” would have a far more immediate and greater impact on everyone else.
That is why the solutions proposed here in the forums won’t work, they are focused on “punish the guy making lots of money” without being able to separate that person from the general population, so you end up punishing everyone who uses the TP.
And considering the fact that all money is essentially dispersed among players via the TP, and the TP is the determining “entity” for what items are valued at (acting as a sort of ‘hivemind’ intermediary), hard to hamper the system over a perceived issue.
Back on page 17, I made a post that broke down the ~750g I made in the last month. But for simplicity, I’ll lay it out here again: ~450 on ascended set for guardian, 100 for guardian’s commander tag, 100 or so for the deluxe digital upgrade (half-off), and another 100 or so left sitting in my inventory. Since that post, I’ve dumped 50-60g in the MF and sold the results to recover about half that loss.
1) Not hard to make money. I ran events, bosses, and farming.
2) Even if I have low money currently, that does not mean there’s a wealth disparity as claimed.
3) If any of these “genius” ideas had been implemented, I’d have made about 1/2 as much money.
Please by all means tell me how something like a progressive tax would impact everyone and make it so you’d only make 1/2 as much last month.
I really don’t see much bad about a progressive tax, a streak busting mechanics, and time limited listing (ie items would be returned after a set amount of time) compared to what they would accomplish.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Well time limited listings may “clean up” items that were priced at ridiculous levels so when supply does drop there would be fewer ridiculous price spikes because someone from 15 months ago posted one of first of some item at 1500g, having no frame of reference. The question then is do owners of returned items get the posting fee back thus turning the time limited listings into a gold source?
Progressive tax based on what? If it’s on the price of the item that sold it won’t necessarily affect the players you intended. “Hi I made my millions on selling a metric buttload of low price items for a tiny profit each.” If it’s on amount withdrawn at once from the TP it punishes those who canceled orders or simply haven’t bothered to pick up their gold hourly/daily. Unless you are looking at a monthly “net worth” tax based on the peak net worth during the month. Then it’s determining what counts and how to price it (does inventory in the bank count at all and if so do you price it based on current buy/sell price?).
Now streak busting mechanics on RNG I can support but that doesn’t impact the TP directly at all other than possibly affecting supply.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Another example were a progressive tax would hit someone where it is not intended:
Someone who farmed iron ore all the time since launch and valued it at 5s each. Even though the price has always been lower, its his good right to ask any value for his iron ore as he seems hit. When the price spiked due to the backpiece, he would have sold thousands of iron ore making hundreds of gold of profit.
Should he pay higher taxes just because his mined ore suddenly was in demand?
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
That’s where time limited listings would apply. It’s one of the things players would need to consider when listing items. Idk why the tp doesn’t have it.
Serenity now~Insanity later
That’s where time limited listings would apply. It’s one of the things players would need to consider when listing items. Idk why the tp doesn’t have it.
How? All the iron in Wanze’s example are self collected, never bought and are sold when their price drifts into a trading range everytime iron became a high demand/low supply item. So you would insist this player would need to have the inventory to hold all of that iron and only post when the price is right for them? Now I understand that limiting inventory is one way to keep a market lubricated so to speak but you are putting a needless restriction on how players use the TP.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Their orgins don’t matter. It’s simply if you list something to sell you’d need to consider if you think it will sell or not within a certain time frame. This is not something new to markets at all. It’s pretty standard.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Thanks for your concern about potential profit margins on the TP. These profits are not as easily defined as a reward from other activities. This has several reasons.
The points you made following this are all obvious and well understood, yet profits from the TP are still, by any reasonable definition, “reward,” and it’s still the responsibility of ANet to attempt to account for it, even which this may prove difficult. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing.
If 1 player gives a reward/profit to another player, there is little we can do about it because that player made a conscious choice of doing so and decided how much convenience or instant gratification is worth for him.
Sure you can. The transaction passes through your hands, you have all sorts of options for manipulating the outcome, some terrible,m but many would be inoccuous to 90%+ of the layers using the system. Suggested above in the thread was the idea of having a tax that is applied when a player makes a sale on the TP, climbing each time a sale is made in a bell curve, but lowering over time, such that a player that makes frequent trades that add up to a high value would end up with a rather significant tax, while players that make infrequent high value trades or make a few mid-value trades per day would barely notice the rise and fall of this tax.
This has two strong values to it, the first being that it would act as a gold sink that draws gold most from those that are most capable of affording it, and second that it helps to balance advanced TP players verses amateurs, since the former would have to achieve higher pre-tax profit margins to actually make a net profit, making plenty of room for other players to undercut them while still turning a profit. It would also encourage those intend on gaming the system to multi-box, which at least increases ANet’s revenues.
This tax should in no significant way impede the purpose of the TP to provide players with items that RNG did not, or to offer a place to sell off RNG rewards that they do not want. Players who just sell what they find or buy what they need should never encounter more than a couple percentage points of tax.
As you stated that profit margins on the TP are too high compared to other rewards in game, please explain to us, how you came to that conclusion and how you would calculate profits on the Trading Post.
Profits would be the amount of coin you pull off the TP. I’m aware that from a strict business sense the net profit would subtract any money you pumped into the market, but there’s no reason why ANet should consider it that way, since the TP should not be viewed as a business. What you take in is a profit, deciding whether that profit is worth what you put into earning it is your own business. There is no reason to encourage any trading beyond offloading what you have and don’t need and picking up what you need but don’t have.
I buy item X for 85 cent and sell it for 1s, then i kill mob Y, get 2 Item X as a loot, i sell one today for 1s and 1 tomorrow for 2s.
How much profit did i make on the tp in this example?
3.4s.
I believe jealousy, laziness, and utter disrespect of a valid, non-rule-breaking play style are the real issues here. Why punish those in this game who enjoy playing it economically?
It’s not about “punishing” anyone, rich players are not the intended “victim” in all of this. It’s merely a balancing effort. All that’s under discussion is balancing out the profit potential of the TP, just as if one class were doing ten times the damage of any other class without any offset, we would expect to either see them nerfed or other classes buffed for the sake of the game. If you enjoy playing the economic game, continue to do so, you just have no reason to feel entitled to the currently achievable profit margins.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Attempting to drive down the profits of those who make money solely from the TP can have a far greater negative impact against those that basically supply those items.
Perhaps, but it’s easily corrected. If changes made would result in the average player seeing less profit from selling off their loot on the TP, then ANet can just counterbalance that by reducing the number of items dropped and increasing the gold dropped. This would keep the total profit from the event the same, and the gold being added would be balanced out by the added market taxes, so it would be inflation-neutral.
Further, profit is not merely the difference of sell price vs buy price. That’s simply the transaction profit. Profit is measured with time as a frame of reference. For example, in the last month, March 15-April 15, I’ve made close to 750-850g. Currently, I have only 70g left. That 70g is currently the entirety of my “profit” this month. Everything else has been consumed in unrecoverable costs (ascended armor & com tag), or losses (nothing good from MF). What would Anet determine as my profit? What happens if I’ve lost more money than I’ve gained in that time frame?
Lol, no. Profit cannot even remotely be defined merely as the amount of cash you have left over after you’ve bought all the stuff you wanted. Profit is the amount you bring in, if you then spend it all that’s your problem.
Imagine logging in to find that 1 iron ingot was 15s a piece. Supply on the item was the same and the demand was exactly the same. What caused this to occur? Inflation.
Nobody is suggesting inflationary changes. Any programs that might cause inflation would of course be offset by programs that reduce inflation. Nobody wants inflation.
The rarest items in the game do not exist in quantities large enough for 100% of the players to have them, or even the top 50%. The majority of players cannot explore the highest levels of fractals, or compete at the highest levels of PvP tournaments. It’s not a problem that rare items are only available to a small portion of the players because they are supposed to be available only to a small portion of the players.
And yet some people have multiples of them. I have no problem really with some items being rare and only held by a minority portion of the population, but the deciding factor of whether they have them or not should not be player wealth, particularly wealth earned outside of core gameplay activities. If only 20% or so of the players can have a Legendary, then each of those Legendaries should have been earned via completing adventures that only 20% of the players are capable of, not by messing around with the UI in town until gold spills out.
Which brings to my question. Why don’t the other 1000 mmorpg games have people spam complaint about TP Baron on their game forum. Sure people complaint about P2W or gem store being too expensive, but I never heard people complain about the TP or economy(well beside diablo 3, but everyone know how broken it was).
It is an interesting question. I think it comes down to in most games the high end items cannot be purchaed using currency, so having way more currency than other players is not a huge deal. In this game almost anything of any interest can be purchased using currency, including gem store items, so being able to accumulate currency is a very big deal.
Should he pay higher taxes just because his mined ore suddenly was in demand?
Yes, because he made more for it. He always had a choice. He chose to hoard and sell off when there was a high price per unit, and that choice resulted in a higher gross profit but perhaps a lower net. He could instead choose to dribble it out, perhaps with a lower gross but higher net since the attached fees would be lower. Up to him.
Ideally though the tax would not apply to the firs time you withdraw over each period, so basically if he made 1000g in that one transaction, after not doing much before that, he would have no tax on that 1000g, while someone who made 500g one day and 500g the next would pay a 500g-based tax on the second 500g. In either case it might take them a while to wait off that tax level, but they’d have time.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The rarest items in the game do not exist in quantities large enough for 100% of the players to have them, or even the top 50%. The majority of players cannot explore the highest levels of fractals, or compete at the highest levels of PvP tournaments. It’s not a problem that rare items are only available to a small portion of the players because they are supposed to be available only to a small portion of the players.
And yet some people have multiples of them. I have no problem really with some items being rare and only held by a minority portion of the population, but the deciding factor of whether they have them or not should not be player wealth, particularly wealth earned outside of core gameplay activities. If only 20% or so of the players can have a Legendary, then each of those Legendaries should have been earned via completing adventures that only 20% of the players are capable of, not by messing around with the UI in town until gold spills out.
Who said that the Trading Post is not core gameplay? Its only your opinion. My opinion is that it resembles core gameplay for me because it makes me login every day and i have fun interacting with it. Johns stance on the subject looks as followed:
Here is my stance on this subject:
The TP is part of Tyria and is a part of the game. Spending your time learning to interact with it is a fine way to play the game if that’s what you enjoy. It has ups and downs (including no exp, karma, achievements).The amount of money to be made on the TP is finite. There is no way it can’t be, the TP only ever sinks money, it never creates it. The TP offers convenience to trade outside of equilibrium pricing, and if a player decides to step in and take the time and effort to consume that trade and push the trade into equilibrium, that is great for the economy. It pushed prices towards equilibrium, provides a service to those who want convenience and sinks money all at the same time.
Trading takes skill, and lots of it, it cannot be argued otherwise and here is why. Because the profit is so limited, the profit has to be split between all the people effectively trading. The lower the skill cap, the more people trading effectively, the less profit individuals make until there’s no longer a real market. If one argues that there is money to be made, then you are arguing that skill is involved.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Who said that the Trading Post is not core gameplay? Its only your opinion. My opinion is that it resembles core gameplay for me because it makes me login every day and i have fun interacting with it. Johns stance on the subject looks as followed:
Is it mentioned on the box? Was there a trailer about how you can buy and sell items for a net profit and earn Legendary weapons without ever leaving town? I think it’s fair to say that TP farming is not a core mechanic of this game any more than champ farming is, and that ANet chooses to condone it is to the detriment of the game.
JS’s view on the subject is myopic at best. Yes, it is an element of the game, and it’s fine if that’s what you like to do, but it shouldn’t make that element above the rules that the rest of the game has to live by, namely that methods of gaining excessive profit over a period of time get slammed with a nerf bat as quickly as they can implement it. I would have no problem with people making money over the TP so long as it is within the range of similar ingame activities, and no, spending a few minutes working the TP does not equate to event farming for hours straight, so don’t argue that it’s possible to make comparable profits through regular activities.
If you want to continue working the TP, that’s fine, go right ahead, nothing I’ve suggested would involve preventing people from playing the TP. My only goal here is to balance out the profit potential, so that you would have to work as hard as anyone else to make the same level of profits.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Thanks for your concern about potential profit margins on the TP. These profits are not as easily defined as a reward from other activities. This has several reasons.
The points you made following this are all obvious and well understood, yet profits from the TP are still, by any reasonable definition, “reward,” and it’s still the responsibility of ANet to attempt to account for it, even which this may prove difficult. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing.
Anet stated several times that high profit margins on the TP dont affect your gameplay in any negative way. Granted you might feel envy towards the guy next to you in his gem store skinned ascended armor, his Twilight, Bolt and Ghastly Shield, Monocle and Jetpack that has a Mini Karka standing next to him, while he pops his permanent merchant to sell his junk, his permanent TP express to pick up another 1000g of profit, his bank express to get another mf booster and his mystic forge conduit to forge his rares into yet another precursor before using his hairstyle contract to celebrate his awesomeness with a new hairdo. Because NONE of this is required for you to enjoy any core game content that you deem fun.
If something is hard to do, it should be worth doing. Why should Anet waste Dev time on something that has no positive impact on the game overall?
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Who said that the Trading Post is not core gameplay? Its only your opinion. My opinion is that it resembles core gameplay for me because it makes me login every day and i have fun interacting with it. Johns stance on the subject looks as followed:
Is it mentioned on the box? Was there a trailer about how you can buy and sell items for a net profit and earn Legendary weapons without ever leaving town? I think it’s fair to say that TP farming is not a core mechanic of this game any more than champ farming is, and that ANet chooses to condone it is to the detriment of the game.
JS’s view on the subject is myopic at best. Yes, it is an element of the game, and it’s fine if that’s what you like to do, but it shouldn’t make that element above the rules that the rest of the game has to live by, namely that methods of gaining excessive profit over a period of time get slammed with a nerf bat as quickly as they can implement it. I would have no problem with people making money over the TP so long as it is within the range of similar ingame activities, and no, spending a few minutes working the TP does not equate to event farming for hours straight, so don’t argue that it’s possible to make comparable profits through regular activities.
If you want to continue working the TP, that’s fine, go right ahead, nothing I’ve suggested would involve preventing people from playing the TP. My only goal here is to balance out the profit potential, so that you would have to work as hard as anyone else to make the same level of profits.
So applying your logic vice versa, you would be fine with me being able to complete my daily, earn skillpoints, achievements, karma and experience playing the Trading Post, as long as a progressive tax gets introduced?
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
JS’s view on the subject is myopic at best. Yes, it is an element of the game, and it’s fine if that’s what you like to do, but it shouldn’t make that element above the rules that the rest of the game has to live by, namely that methods of gaining excessive profit over a period of time get slammed with a nerf bat as quickly as they can implement it. I would have no problem with people making money over the TP so long as it is within the range of similar ingame activities, and no, spending a few minutes working the TP does not equate to event farming for hours straight, so don’t argue that it’s possible to make comparable profits through regular activities.
If you want to continue working the TP, that’s fine, go right ahead, nothing I’ve suggested would involve preventing people from playing the TP. My only goal here is to balance out the profit potential, so that you would have to work as hard as anyone else to make the same level of profits.
Again with this “balance” thing. You cannot balance something without having anything to balance it with. The TP stands alone. Rewards from drops are “created” by loot tables. This items and coin did not exist in the game before the drop generated them. Profits gained from the TP are not generated. They are shared from existing coins. In fact, as you don’t seem to fully understand, the TP deletes 15% of coinage from the game. It’s called a Gold Sink.
So if you insist on balance, then I demand that a 15% tax be levied on all items and coin gained from world rewards. Fair is fair. Heck, this sounds like a new thread altogether!
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Many people have suggested a progressive tax to cut high end profits on the tp and for me this looks like the best solution to do so at first glance.
Unfortunately people have only posted general ideas about a progressive tax and i myself cant come up with a good implementation that would only apply to TP traders that make lots of profit and doesnt affect other players in a negative way.
So if those people who are advocating a progressive tax could come up with a detailed suggestion on how this might look like, I would appreciate the effort.
Please state a value of profit that you deem reasonable over a certain period of time and how exactly you define profit and how potential losses will be put into equation.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Anet stated several times that high profit margins on the TP dont affect your gameplay in any negative way.
And they can say it several more but that won’t make it any more true. It affects me most certainly, in the same way that if I wanted to play a Thief, yet Warriors were running around doing ten times the damage I could put out with zero drawbacks, then I would feel that I was being punished for playing the wrong class. It’s bad balance and leads to player enui, which leads to burnout. You want players to always feel that their efforts are being rewarded fairly to other activities in the game.
If something is hard to do, it should be worth doing. Why should Anet waste Dev time on something that has no positive impact on the game overall?
If you don’t believe that fixing the TP profit imbalance would have no positive impact on the game then the same would be true about half the stuff they’ve announced for the patch today. They do QoL improvements all the time, and this would be a serious QoL improvement.
So applying your logic vice versa, you would be fine with me being able to complete my daily, earn skillpoints, achievements, karma and experience playing the Trading Post, as long as a progressive tax gets introduced?
Sure, I don’t have a huge problem with that, so long as the profits really were leveled out. I don’t see the point though, most of that stuff is fairly pointless to accumulate and relatively easy to acquire when compared to gold, it’s more just something that happens as you play than something anyone actively seeks out.
Again with this “balance” thing. You cannot balance something without having anything to balance it with. The TP stands alone.
That’s nonsense. It’s a way for a player to come out with more gold than he went in with. You can’t argue that it “stands alone” when it is so heavily integrated into the game’s economy. The old form of sPvP “stood alone” because every advantage you could earn from it could only be applied within sPvP. If they launched an “sBLTC” interface where you could trade in virtual items in exchange not for gold, but for “Merchant Points” that were not redeemable for any items you could use in the actual game, then sure, you could argue that it “stands alone,” but so long as items and money from the rest of the game go into the market, and items and gold flood out of the TP into the rest of the game, it’s preposterous to argue that it qualifies for some sort of “diplomatic immunity.” It must be responsible to the game as a whole.
Rewards from drops are “created” by loot tables. This items and coin did not exist in the game before the drop generated them. Profits gained from the TP are not generated. They are shared from existing coins. In fact, as you don’t seem to fully understand, the TP deletes 15% of coinage from the game. It’s called a Gold Sink.
DUH.
The same has been repeated numerous times already, including by myself.
It is irrelevant.
It does not matter to this discussion where the gold comes from, if a player kills a bunch of mobs and ends up with 50s, then he has 50s. If he sells an item on the TP and recovers 50s, then he has 50s. What matters is that he has 50s, not where it comes from.
Now, certainly ANet needs to care about these things, they do need to make sure that money faucets and sinks balance out, but there’s nothing whatsoever about that which means that the TP must be inviolate. If any changes are made hat cause the TP to work less efficiently as a money sink, then they just need to apply new ones elsewhere, or even decrease the flow into the economy if necessary. I would argue however that a progressive tax would not reduce the TP’s value as a money sink, since it would result in taking in higher taxes on high volume traders, and only in proportion to the amount they bring in, so basically whether they continue to try making a profit or scale back their activities the taxes brought in would remain fairly constant.
So if you insist on balance, then I demand that a 15% tax be levied on all items and coin gained from world rewards. Fair is fair. Heck, this sounds like a new thread altogether!
. . .
They do that sort of thing all the time. They announced for this next patch that the coins from Champ bags will be reduced, for example. Maybe not by 15%, but by whatever amount they deemed necessary. If they think too much money is being added to the world, they “tax” out the difference. It’s all transparent to the players, but it still happens.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Unfortunately people have only posted general ideas about a progressive tax and i myself cant come up with a good implementation that would only apply to TP traders that make lots of profit and doesnt affect other players in a negative way.
What is your view specifically on my proposal, one that 1. Applies a tax based on the amount of gold that you withdraw from the TP. 2. This amount is only applied to the next time you withdraw, not the time in question. 3. The amount would work on a bell curve, low for the first gold or so, higher as it goes up, and then soft capping at some high rate. I’m not sure the exact rates that would be appropriate for each stage, but an economist could figure those out. 4. The tax penalty would reduce over time, maybe a point per day or so.
The result of this, I think, would be that a player who makes maybe a gold or so per day via the TP would notice little difference in their income, while those who make several gold would notice a slight effect at first that slowly builds over time (growing faster than it decays), and those that make dozens of gold per day would see a rapidly growing penalty until they hit the cap and it would stay there so long as the income kept rolling in.
Furthermore, players who received a “windfall” like an unwanted Precursor would not be gypped, because they could sell it without added tax, and only afterwards have an increased burden for maybe a month or two, after which it would have decayed back to nothing. They would be best served hoarding whatever they find for at least part of that time, rather than selling it at the penalty rates, and that might be a nuisance, but they’d have a good chunk of change from the Precursor to tide them over.
There might even be some options to buy off that penalty in rare cases, like every few months you could earn a one-time “clear” on it to negate those windfall penalties early, or perhaps you could buy such an item using Karma or Laurels or some other non-TP currency.
Please state a value of profit that you deem reasonable over a certain period of time and how exactly you define profit and how potential losses will be put into equation.
I would define “profit” as “any gold you pull out of the TP, no matter what you put in.” Whether that personal profit was a good investment on your part is up to you, nobody else is responsible for your losses. Trying to tax net income would be considerably harder than just taxing gross income.
As to “a reasonable amount,” it would of course vary and have to be flexible to allow more on one day and less on another, but I think a reasonable average for a casual market player would be in the 2-3 gold per day range, and for hardcore TP players that really put some effort into it, maybe 3-5 gold per day.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Unfortunately people have only posted general ideas about a progressive tax and i myself cant come up with a good implementation that would only apply to TP traders that make lots of profit and doesnt affect other players in a negative way.
What is your view specifically on my proposal, one that 1. Applies a tax based on the amount of gold that you withdraw from the TP. 2. This amount is only applied to the next time you withdraw, not the time in question. 3. The amount would work on a bell curve, low for the first gold or so, higher as it goes up, and then soft capping at some high rate. I’m not sure the exact rates that would be appropriate for each stage, but an economist could figure those out. 4. The tax penalty would reduce over time, maybe a point per day or so.
The result of this, I think, would be that a player who makes maybe a gold or so per day via the TP would notice little difference in their income, while those who make several gold would notice a slight effect at first that slowly builds over time (growing faster than it decays), and those that make dozens of gold per day would see a rapidly growing penalty until they hit the cap and it would stay there so long as the income kept rolling in.
Furthermore, players who received a “windfall” like an unwanted Precursor would not be gypped, because they could sell it without added tax, and only afterwards have an increased burden for maybe a month or two, after which it would have decayed back to nothing. They would be best served hoarding whatever they find for at least part of that time, rather than selling it at the penalty rates, and that might be a nuisance, but they’d have a good chunk of change from the Precursor to tide them over.
There might even be some options to buy off that penalty in rare cases, like every few months you could earn a one-time “clear” on it to negate those windfall penalties early, or perhaps you could buy such an item using Karma or Laurels or some other non-TP currency.
Please state a value of profit that you deem reasonable over a certain period of time and how exactly you define profit and how potential losses will be put into equation.
I would define “profit” as “any gold you pull out of the TP, no matter what you put in.” Whether that personal profit was a good investment on your part is up to you, nobody else is responsible for your losses. Trying to tax net income would be considerably harder than just taxing gross income.
As to “a reasonable amount,” it would of course vary and have to be flexible to allow more on one day and less on another, but I think a reasonable average for a casual market player would be in the 2-3 gold per day range, and for hardcore TP players that really put some effort into it, maybe 3-5 gold per day.
The biggest problem with your proposal is that it slows down trade in general for everybody and would not only hit TP Traders.
What is with the crafter, who likes crafting? He crafts 30 items that he makes a net profit of 10 silver each on because the mats cost 75s and the item sells for 1 gold.
In your opinion, 3 gold per day is acceptable profit but he pulls out 25.5g out of the tp and gets hit by the tax.
It will also have the negative side effect that players actually HAVE to sell stuff on the TP every day unless they want to get hit by the progressive tax. And because they dont know when their sell listing will be bought, it encourages players to sell to the highest bidder. Example:
Average Joe earns 3g worth of loot every day from drops. He always adds it to the lowest listing but from monday to friday, demand seems lower than supply but on the weekend, demands rises and he sells stuff worth 9g on saturday and 12g on sunday, which gets hit by progressive tax.
A progressive tax would also not hurt me as a tp player because my profits are given to me by other players, so i would basically just sink more of everybody elses gold.
One arguement that was brought up earlier on why TP players make so much profit, was because the average player doesnt really know how the Trading Post work (I think it was Gene Archer and not you). But would this progressive tax make the TP way more complicated for the average player?
I think the negative effects that your suggestion would have on the whole player base (and the economy) are far worse than what we have now. It would drive people into other ways of trading than the tp, which usually involves alot of scams by trading over mail and hawking in map chat, something the tp was designed to eliminate.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
I still feel pretty strongly that limiting the rate at which a flipper could profit is a good solution over a progressive tax, since it really only impacts that behavior. The timer system for something like that is already in the game in ecto refinement. It really comes down to how much you can earn over time and wouldn’t negatively affect anyone else. I also feel like they should “do something” to have players feel less intimidated by using the market. My suggestion of having regular vendors act as agents might help in as much as people would see what their goods are going for on the TP. I works in my head, lol, i just can’t seem to explain how correctly.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Please by all means tell me how something like a progressive tax would impact everyone and make it so you’d only make 1/2 as much last month.
I really don’t see much bad about a progressive tax, a streak busting mechanics, and time limited listing (ie items would be returned after a set amount of time) compared to what they would accomplish.
1) A progressive tax on “profit” would have meant I sold items at a lower and lower profit, or have not sold them at all.
2) A progressive tax on quantity sold would have meant I’d not bother selling quite a few of the items because I’m not selling items worth an average of 5-10g, I’m selling items worth an average of 5-10 silver.
A progressive tax of any kind says “kitten you” to every player, not just the ones you’re trying to benefit.
TLDR
If you want your “other gameplay” to have similar value to the tradepost, then demand that value when you sell crap. Stop glossing over, ignoring, or omitting the fact that in order to value the time spent on other money methods in the game, you have to use the same exact system you’re hating on. Second, the value of your time is determined by other players. If they agree the price you set for your time is fair, then you’ll sell items and make money. If you set your price too high, it might never sell. Simple as that.
And no, I havent read any of your posts in the last 5 pages. Less length, more summarizing.
Please by all means tell me how something like a progressive tax would impact everyone and make it so you’d only make 1/2 as much last month.
I really don’t see much bad about a progressive tax, a streak busting mechanics, and time limited listing (ie items would be returned after a set amount of time) compared to what they would accomplish.
1) A progressive tax on “profit” would have meant I sold items at a lower and lower profit, or have not sold them at all.
2) A progressive tax on quantity sold would have meant I’d not bother selling quite a few of the items because I’m not selling items worth an average of 5-10g, I’m selling items worth an average of 5-10 silver.A progressive tax of any kind says “kitten you” to every player, not just the ones you’re trying to benefit.
Or if a player sold items at a loss too. Would this progressive tax track that i sold at a loss?
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Please by all means tell me how something like a progressive tax would impact everyone and make it so you’d only make 1/2 as much last month.
I really don’t see much bad about a progressive tax, a streak busting mechanics, and time limited listing (ie items would be returned after a set amount of time) compared to what they would accomplish.
1) A progressive tax on “profit” would have meant I sold items at a lower and lower profit, or have not sold them at all.
2) A progressive tax on quantity sold would have meant I’d not bother selling quite a few of the items because I’m not selling items worth an average of 5-10g, I’m selling items worth an average of 5-10 silver.A progressive tax of any kind says “kitten you” to every player, not just the ones you’re trying to benefit.
Or if a player sold items at a loss too. Would this progressive tax track that i sold at a loss?
TP doesnt track that now, so it’s unlikely to change in the future.
Honest question: Do you know what a progressive tax is and how it works?
Serenity now~Insanity later
Or if a player sold items at a loss too. Would this progressive tax track that i sold at a loss?
TP doesnt track that now, so it’s unlikely to change in the future.
If you’re going to propose solutions that require drastic and complicated changes to the way the TP works, you’ll need to:
1: Show that there is a problem that needs to be solved.
2: Demonstrate that the problem is so severe that a much more complicated system is necessary.
Neither of these things have happened, and given that everyone from John Smith on down to me has asked for them repeatedly, I don’t think that anyone on “the other side” can show that there actually is a problem.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and DemandSupply and Demand
None of those links support your argument. Did you link the wrong things?
Tell me….
If this is a player economy….
How comes a DEVS increase out of a reasonable level the demand putting a 3X requirement on a good to actually CHANGE demand.
But refuse to do anything for lack of supplies?
I’ll tell you… because this is not a player driven economy….and also because he is not able or don t want to balance the economy.
But for sure that explains the GAME economy is extremely poorly managed…
When you have the power to change the demand and you use it at will you can t say a broken supply/demand is player driven.
P.S. solution…sncreasing taxes on buy and sales order similar to diminishing returns in PvE…
The more you sell/buy in the short period the higher the taxes..
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
Honest question: Do you know what a progressive tax is and how it works?
I know what a progressive tax is but i dont know how it could work applied to the TP.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
I know you know Wanze..sry, that question was direct towards Aidan.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and DemandSupply and Demand
None of those links support your argument. Did you link the wrong things?
Tell me….
If this is a player economy….How comes a DEVS increase out of a reasonable level the demand putting a 3X requirement on a good to actually CHANGE demand.
But refuse to do anything for lack of supplies?
I’ll tell you… because this is not a player driven economy….and also because he is not able or don t want to balance the economy.
But for sure that explains the GAME economy is extremely poorly managed…
When you have the power to change the demand and you use it at will you can t say a broken supply/demand is player driven.
P.S. solution…sncreasing taxes on buy and sales order similar to diminishing returns in PvE…
The more you sell/buy in the short period the higher the taxes..
Of course Anet has control of the economy. But this isn’t inherently bad. In fact your example shows how they use it balance the economy, not unbalance it. Before silk was worthless, now it has value.
Tell me….
If this is a player economy….How comes a DEVS increase out of a reasonable level the demand putting a 3X requirement on a good to actually CHANGE demand.
But refuse to do anything for lack of supplies?
I’ll tell you… because this is not a player driven economy….and also because he is not able or don t want to balance the economy.
But for sure that explains the GAME economy is extremely poorly managed…
When you have the power to change the demand and you use it at will you can t say a broken supply/demand is player driven.
P.S. solution…sncreasing taxes on buy and sales order similar to diminishing returns in PvE…
The more you sell/buy in the short period the higher the taxes..
This is a player DRIVEN economy.
ArenaNet still functions as the “invisible hand” that addresses significant problems (like those materials being worthless due to an excessive oversupply).
Server: Devona’s Rest
The only solution that I can think of that has a chance of doing something positive while not requiring the entire system to be torn apart and replaced would be to set time limits on listings.
However, the big downside (and you can see this in other games that have them) is that every player is affected by this, not just rich folks and flippers. For fast-moving markets such as crafting mats it wouldn’t hurt too much, but if you lost the listing fees for expired listings, the average player who finds a precursor that he can’t use or doesn’t want is kittened over because he can’t afford to throw several gold at the TP every few days until it sells.
It also makes it more difficult to buy things, particularly rare items because you have to find one listed for sale at the time when you want it, when the same item could have expired only hours ago and is no longer available. In order to make a profit serious traders will also push up the prices of things quite a bit to offset the costs of expired listings.
Overall, this creates a negative effect on the players over the system we have now. The TP as designed is meant to be a convenient and effective marketplace. This provides certain opportunities for players who understand the system, much like PvE players learn the best places to farm or the most efficient ways to level.
So, if you want the system to be changed, you must demonstrate:
1: The current system is broken, and does not benefit the majority of players as it is meant to do, by providing opportunities to buy and sell items easily and at reasonable prices for the current ratio of supply:demand.
2: Your proposed system would allow the majority of players to do this better and more easily.
Personally, I don’t think any of the proposals so far are an improvement over the current system, but if you can show JS that your idea is better he has proven to be reasonable and capable of acting to solve problems that need solving.
Time limits on listings will reduce trading volume (why take the risk on slow markets?). Reduced trading volume will lead to less gold being sunk.
Most likely solution? 25% Trading post tax. This means everything just got more expensive for everyone.
Server: Devona’s Rest
There is nothing saying that a time limited listing would have to have a short duration. It could be a month or more. It is something that would need to be balanced so obviously not a very short duration.
Serenity now~Insanity later
There is nothing saying that a time limited listing would have to have a short duration. It could be a month or more. It is something that would need to be balanced so obviously not a very short duration.
If you can demonstrate that a problem exists (hasn’t happened yet) and show a solution that is an improvement over the current system (hasn’t happened yet) then go ahead. JS is still waiting for an answer to his request.
If you can demonstrate that no problem exists (hasn’t happened yet) and show that a solution isn’t an improvement over the current system (hasn’t happened yet) then go ahead.
See why that’s not valid?
Serenity now~Insanity later
There is nothing saying that a time limited listing would have to have a short duration. It could be a month or more. It is something that would need to be balanced so obviously not a very short duration.
But how does that not affect everybody? Speculators actually deposit their items in their guild bank and list when the price goes up. The average player, who doesnt know the market might always add to the lowest listing but if he hits a downward market, he is screwed.
You also have to consider that listings from inactive accounts still have a valid function in being a supply buffer, in case of demand spikes. Time limited listings simply result in less supply on the tp, there is no arguing around that. Less supply means more volatile markets which favour flippers, regular people want stable markets with slow moves to either direction, otherwise they cant determine the true value of the item.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
If you can demonstrate that no problem exists (hasn’t happened yet) and show that a solution isn’t an improvement over the current system (hasn’t happened yet) then go ahead.
See why that’s not valid?
Because we dont have to prove to you that there is no problem, we have to prove it to JS. He said there is no problem.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Time limited listed would definitely affect everyone. It’s meant to. It mimics the cost of holding/storing in rl. It would de-clutter he tp and hopefully make it easier for players to interpret values.
Serenity now~Insanity later