Guild Wars 2

I don’t keep track, this is a game, not my job. Regardless of how it balances out, I’ve done plenty of both.

So if i buy up 50 stacks of iron ore at 1s and relist them at 3s. After some time a price spike happens and it rises to 3s and sells. Everybody on the forums cries that i make too much profit now and how easy it is.

Now imagine a gatherer posting all his farmed iron since launch at 3s and not at its value of 1s. He makes as much profit as me, once the price spikes, by holding on to his items until the price rises but nobody seems to have a problem with that.

There is actually no difference between me and that gatherer because we both wait a long time compared to other people, who sell their loot directy, to get our profit back.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Here’s the major flaw to your point. You can afford to get any item you want, you just don’t want to put in the efforts to be able to afford them. Anyone can be poor. Anyone can be rich. The difference here is one is due to non-effort, and the other is due to serious effort.

This is a bunch of bullkitten. Why is TP flipping the only “serious effort” that counts? Why must everyone learn how to do that in order to have the best income possible? As others have mentioned many times, I didn’t buy this game to play John Smith’s Trading Wars 2. I bought it to actually play the game. Quite frankly we need way more stuff like the Queen’s Gauntlet or SAB Tribulation mode.. challenging stuff that where we can put in effort to earn rewards that can’t be bought off the TP.

Wanze.8410:

So if i buy up 50 stacks of iron ore at 1s and relist them at 3s. After some time a price spike happens and it rises to 3s and sells. Everybody on the forums cries that i make too much profit now and how easy it is.

Now imagine a gatherer posting all his farmed iron since launch at 3s and not at its value of 1s. He makes as much profit as me, once the price spikes, by holding on to his items until the price rises but nobody seems to have a problem with that.

There is actually no difference between me and that gatherer because we both wait a long time compared to other people, who sell their loot directy, to get our profit back.

How long does it take to gather and list 50 stacks of iron ore? And how long does it take to buy and relist 50 stacks?

Wanze.8410:

So if i buy up 50 stacks of iron ore at 1s and relist them at 3s. After some time a price spike happens and it rises to 3s and sells. Everybody on the forums cries that i make too much profit now and how easy it is.

Now imagine a gatherer posting all his farmed iron since launch at 3s and not at its value of 1s. He makes as much profit as me, once the price spikes, by holding on to his items until the price rises but nobody seems to have a problem with that.

There is actually no difference between me and that gatherer because we both wait a long time compared to other people, who sell their loot directy, to get our profit back.

You actually didn’t wait right? You just flipped a bunch of iron and promoted a bunch of copper in a day.

I think the flaw of your argument is you are looking back at what already happened. How about you tell me if I should keep all my iron now and wait for it to go to 3 silver. Or it is better that I sell it and invest in something else. Or should I sell it now since iron might drop in price and buy it back later.

I think you have a point. But the argument is silly since if I want to flip silver, I don’t go mine silver, I mine iron sell it and buy silver. Since I make much more money mining iron.

And basically people dont’ mind the farmer spend 20 hours farming 50 stack of iron and sell it later. But you spend 2 minutes and make the same money that farmer can make in 20 hours. If the farmer use those money he make and start flipping himself, people have a problem with that.

Breaking silence just to mention:

Vol just trashed his gold guide about an hour ago and had some interesting things to say.

Make of it what you will.

Back to silence a go go.

John Smith.4610:

Gene Archer.8560:

tolunart.2095:

What you need to do is demonstrate how to determine whether there is a problem and JS can plug in the numbers and see if there is some merit to your claims.

I already did this. It was ignored outright. And I don’t mean JS said “I put in the numbers, there’s no problem”

I mean he never even responded.

I honestly don’t know to what you’re referring, maybe I missed it?

I haven’t seen it either, although i would like to promote the method/format in which you proposed to Gene. If you’re really that passionate about this problem, it is quite a good test to “create a hypothesis, create a test method, carry out a test”. It’s actually quite easy to do, but it requires a little bit of time an effort on your part.

I think you’ll find, with even the data available to you, once you do the research, you’ll see the “problem” isn’t as powerful as you thought it was.

It’s good that Vol scrubbed his guide, since it does reinforce playing the TP to be a even more profitable way to “play the game” and while i think it still should be more inline, i still have yet to come a cross a solution that doesn’t impact the rest of the players. I do have one idea, but i can’t really get the numbers to work out. Doing so would undoubtedly take up way to much of my free time

I’m pretty sure nobody is arguing IF there is a wealth disparity… Or at least they shouldn’t be. The real question is if it matters.

I’m going to use a couple economic terms: “nominal price” which means the value of an item without accounting for inflation, and “real price” which means the price adjusted for inflation.

So, on the argument of “well, inflation gives me a moving target”, what I have to say is that inflation also gives you a moving profit. A lot of the gold you make from just regular play is from selling items. Sell them on the TP, and as inflation brings up nominal prices, inflation brings up your nominal profits, and the real profit is the same.

Yes, I recognize that not everything inflates at the same rate, but that’s going to be the case with or without flippers and barons.

There is some talk about precursors. I’m not trying to get a precursor yet, but I did some quick research to get a reasonable grasp on it. So, precursors can be “crafted” in the slot machineMystic Forge. This is done using weapons of level 75 and higher. If someone converts these weapons into a precursor, they are increasing the demand for those weapons. Consequently, the price goes up for the weapons and the crafting materials for those weapons. Proportionally. This means that casual players who get the weapon drops and sell or salvage them (and sell the mats) are making more nominal gold than before the precursor was crafted.

The higher the price for the precursors go, the more profitable it is to create more, and the more likely people are to create them, and the higher the nominal prices for the mats go, and the higher the nominal profits for the casuals go.

This applies to all of the high-end craftable and salvageable items.

I think this is verbose enough to leave it here.

Edit: Since there is a sort of “what information should we test with the data” question… I think it would be very relevant to know if this is accurate. Does the inflation of precursors, etc, follow in line with everything else? Especially with the things that are pre-precursors and pre-precursor crafting mats?

Rydralain.8126:

Edit: Since there is a sort of “what information should we test with the data” question… I think it would be very relevant to know if this is accurate. Does the inflation of precursors, etc, follow in line with everything else? Especially with the things that are pre-precursors and pre-precursor crafting mats?

If you’re asking if the cost of rare 75-80 (lets say staves) are going up relative to the cost of The Legend, then no, no they are not. You need 4 staves to toss in the forge for a chance at The Legend.

Gene Archer.8560:

Breaking silence just to mention:

Vol just trashed his gold guide about an hour ago and had some interesting things to say.

Make of it what you will.

Back to silence a go go.

One of the best things about playing an MMO is that the game is always changing. One of the most frustrating things about playing an MMO is that the game is always changing.

Keep in mind that without farmers bringing a constant supply of crafting mats, gear and desirable items to the TP to sell, there will soon be nothing for “TP barons” to sell and no buyers to sell to. As items are crafted, soulbound, salvaged and tossed into the MF they are removed from circulation, and every “flip” removes currency from the game. Without bringing in new material the sheer size of the game population will deplete the TP supply of most things very quickly.

The patch may have changed things around a bit, but farmers will still farm and they will find new spots to visit. The situation should stabilize in a few weeks.

munkiman.3068:

Rydralain.8126:

Edit: Since there is a sort of “what information should we test with the data” question… I think it would be very relevant to know if this is accurate. Does the inflation of precursors, etc, follow in line with everything else? Especially with the things that are pre-precursors and pre-precursor crafting mats?

If you’re asking if the cost of rare 75-80 (lets say staves) are going up relative to the cost of The Legend, then no, no they are not. You need 4 staves to toss in the forge for a chance at The Legend.

Obviously the tier 5 material and precursor are related. And a few of the popular rare weapon. Since those are used for mystic forge.

But other stuff isn’t necessary related. So you might see ecto price or gem exchange drop, but the precursor and pre precursor crafting materail might keep going up.

munkiman.3068:

If you’re asking if the cost of rare 75-80 (lets say staves) are going up relative to the cost of The Legend, then no, no they are not. You need 4 staves to toss in the forge for a chance at The Legend.

I don’t think I understand what you’re trying to say here. Yes, each attempt takes 4 items, but then the average number of attempts is something like 100-200, making it 400-800 items to make one.

Anyway, after I posted last time, I realized I can run the numbers myself. So I’m looking at the price difference between (YYYY-MM-DD) 2012-11-01 and 2014-04-01. I am using GW2Spidey’s numbers, and using only the “daily moving average” number so that we get less spikey numbers, and I’m using the sell price, since it’s the instant gratification price. The items I chose are just randomly chosen staves that are rare, lvl75+, that have enough history.

The Legend started at 368g, ended at 819g, a 122.55% inflation.
Rampager’s Soft Wood Staff of Bloodlust: 23.63s and 46.62s, a 97.3% inflation.
Rampager’s Krait Crook: 26.73s, and 53.69, a 100.86% inflation.
Carrion Flame Staff of Air: 38.69, and 50.04, a 29.33% inflation.
Cleric’s Soft Wood Staff of Energy: 23.78, and 43.49, a 82.88% inflation.
Berserker’s Soft Wood Staff of Restoration: 23.55, and 45.44, a 93% inflation.

The average % of inflation across the items there is 80.67%

So, across 17 months, The Legend has experienced an inflation that is higher by 40% compared to that sample of weapons that can be MFed into it. That’s about 50% more inflation.

The question is, is this a problem with excessive demand by overly rich TP barons, or is it just not enough people are willing to throw things into the lovingly dubbed Mystic Toilet?

Rydralain.8126:

The question is, is this a problem with excessive demand by overly rich TP barons, or is it just not enough people are willing to throw things into the lovingly dubbed Mystic Toilet?

I’d say it’s a combination of supply of rare/exotic staves increasing, while demand for the Legend is also increasing.

Between launch and now they added sources of loot like the bonus chest from World Boss events and farming events like Queen’s Pavilion that dumped a lot more loot into the TP. Prices for rare staves go up more slowly because supply increased.

Between launch and now a lot of players have reached max level on multiple characters. Creating a Legendary weapon is a major goal for “endgame” focused players, for some it’s the only endgame. So over time the number of players who want to create a Legendary have increased faster than supply, while those who create the Legendary (or Legendaries) they want and drop out of the market reduces the number more slowly. So demand increases dramatically for precursors.

This means that supply and demand do not change equally for MF-fodder and precursors. Supply of rare staves goes up faster than demand, while demand for the Legend goes up faster than supply. This leads to a shift in prices and a precursor that costs more than the components that create it. If it continues, the price difference becomes great enough that more people buy staves to throw in the MF and the gap begins to close as demand for rare staves increases.

tolunart.2095:

This means that supply and demand do not change equally for MF-fodder and precursors. Supply of rare staves goes up faster than demand, while demand for the Legend goes up faster than supply. This leads to a shift in prices and a precursor that costs more than the components that create it. If it continues, the price difference becomes great enough that more people buy staves to throw in the MF and the gap begins to close as demand for rare staves increases.

Well, wouldn’t an increase in the supply of rares decreases the cost of throwing them at the MF, increasing the profitability of creating them, thus increasing the number of people making them?

I think that this gap just comes down to faith and volume. Most people don’t trust the MF, which adds a huge aversion factor in the market. The second problem is that not enough people have the gold to throw enough thousands of gold at the MF to offset the statistical probability involved.

In this case, I think that more people with huge amounts of gold should actually reduce the wealth gap. More gold means spreading out risk more, which means more investments in the precursor market. This would increase the supply of precursors and increase the amount of gold made from selling those rares.

Rydralain.8126:

Well, wouldn’t an increase in the supply of rares decreases the cost of throwing them at the MF, increasing the profitability of creating them, thus increasing the number of people making them?

That’s not their only purpose. They are also used to equip toons and salvaged for crafting mats and ectos. So an increase in loot drops doesn’t directly translate into an increase in precursors, the ecto market and number of toons reaching 80 and needing to be geared also contribute.

Rydralain.8126:

In this case, I think that more people with huge amounts of gold should actually reduce the wealth gap. More gold means spreading out risk more, which means more investments in the precursor market. This would increase the supply of precursors and increase the amount of gold made from selling those rares.

We already know, straight from JS himself, that the number of wealthy players does not impact the economy as much as some people think. There’s more to spend money on than precursors, rare and luxury items are generally being passed around between players which means that TP investor is rich one day, then he buys stuff and makes several farmers rich the next day. And every time things change hands, the overall amount of gold in circulation is reduced.

Very few players simply sell stuff on the TP and stand around watching their numbers go up. The coin in your wallet is a means to an end, whether that is gearing up alts or showing off expensive and rare items. In my case, any money that I make on the TP went to crafting and gearing expenses for my 16 toons, about half of them at max level. The money I get from selling stuff goes right back into the economy, I don’t hoard gold so I can brag about how many millions I have.

tolunart.2095:

Rydralain.8126:

In this case, I think that more people with huge amounts of gold should actually reduce the wealth gap. More gold means spreading out risk more, which means more investments in the precursor market. This would increase the supply of precursors and increase the amount of gold made from selling those rares.

We already know, straight from JS himself, that the number of wealthy players does not impact the economy as much as some people think. .

No we don’t. He said and I quote:

John Smith.4610:

There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

Individual rich players.

He never said anything about the whole of players with ig wealth. Until he says the whole<—-key word meaning all, not individual…of them have no impact, what you are saying is false.

If you are referring to the whole population of rich players ingame, then you would have to demonstrate they collude with each other to corner vast sections of the market that impact the huge population of average players …. I’m sure JS could confirm if that’s the case to clarify what influence the rich have exercised on manipulating the TP. I doubt that’s happening because that’s not how rich people get wealth …. but that’s just speculation. It wouldn’t be hard to check either.

So are you suggesting there is some big conspiracy by rich people to simultaneously drive all prices up to get money from the average players? That’s quite the claim.

You can’t be serious. Do you honestly think all this talk about a wealth gap has been about an individual level? I’m blown away by that………

Well now you edited your post…………

It’s not that they are or maybe colluding. It’s about a mass of players having enough demand and wealth to sustain prices at a level above most.

I can’t be about a mass of players having enough demand and wealth to sustain prices at a level above most because people simply don’t create demand because they have money. Demand doesn’t increase because your rich (an argument could be made that rich people are pretty frugal ….). Rich people want to pay the same cheap prices the average guy does. The market is COMPETITIVE. Regardless of what’s in your wallet, you want to sell at the highest price and buy at the lowest. You can’t ignore these fundamental principles in these discussions.

Snow, I’d love to hear how you feel about my statements.

There are a lot of factors that can drive those prices Rydralain.

In the case of rare weapons and armor the surge in the true demand relative to supply for ectos, raises the price on ectos which in turn raises the price on a prime source for them which is salvaging Level 68 and up rare weapons and armor. Also surges in price of the other materials from salvaging can impact the price on these items.

Take that Berserker Staff. It was more expensive Feb 1, 2013 than Apr 1, 2014. Same is true with most of the other rare staves you listed. So it’s easy to cherry pick a start and end data, not saying that you did. That’s why you look year over year.

Apr 1, 2013 to Apr 1, 2014 (first sample day graph)

The Legend started at 637.37g, ended at 820.50g, a 28.7% inflation.
Rampager’s Soft Wood Staff of Bloodlust: 37.78s and 48.28s, a 27.8% inflation.
Rampager’s Krait Crook: 45.52s, and 52.17s, a 14.6% inflation.
Carrion Flame Staff of Air: 45.20s, and 53.10s, a 17.5% inflation.
Cleric’s Soft Wood Staff of Energy: 39.09s, and 47.60s, a 21.8% inflation.
Berserker’s Soft Wood Staff of Restoration: 37.15s, and 49.00s, a 31.9% inflation.

So the precursor staff gone up year over year 28.7% while the basket of five rare staffs have gone up only 22.2% (204.74s to 250.15s).

I don’t dispute there’s been an increase in price over time. It’s just during the first few months of the TP isn’t a good time to use as a sample since there’s a money supply is rapidly increasing and it takes time for the market on all the items to reach some level of stability. So like the universe, there was a period of rapid inflation, especially on rare and valuable items like precursors, followed by a much lower inflation rate.

edit: Freudian Slip – rabidly for rapidly

Behellagh.1468:

Take that Berserker Staff. It was more expensive Feb 1, 2013 than Apr 1, 2014. Same is true with most of the other rare staves you listed. So it’s easy to cherry pick a start and end data, not saying that you did. That’s why you look year over year.

Thanks, I’m happy to see someone with some economics knowledge in here. I chose my timeframe based on cutting off the very beginning of the data, where the markets initially normalised, and the last end-of-month before the most recent patch, where we’re still normalising. Also, I believe that all timeframes are arbitrary, but you’re right that years look less suspicious. To be honest, your data is much closer to what I was expecting.

Rydralain.8126:

The Legend started at 368g, ended at 819g, a 122.55% inflation.
Rampager’s Soft Wood Staff of Bloodlust: 23.63s and 46.62s, a 97.3% inflation.
Rampager’s Krait Crook: 26.73s, and 53.69, a 100.86% inflation.
Carrion Flame Staff of Air: 38.69, and 50.04, a 29.33% inflation.
Cleric’s Soft Wood Staff of Energy: 23.78, and 43.49, a 82.88% inflation.
Berserker’s Soft Wood Staff of Restoration: 23.55, and 45.44, a 93% inflation.

The average % of inflation across the items there is 80.67%

So, across 17 months, The Legend has experienced an inflation that is higher by 40% compared to that sample of weapons that can be MFed into it. That’s about 50% more inflation.
The question is, is this a problem with excessive demand by overly rich TP barons, or is it just not enough people are willing to throw things into the lovingly dubbed Mystic Toilet?

Behellagh already pointed out some stuff towards your post and there are some other things you seem to have overlooked. If you want to find out the price relation between precursors and rare lvl 80 weapons that are thrown into the mf to make precursorsm you would have to focus on crafted rares, not the ones from drops (which have a rare sigil attached), but you ony took 1 crafted rare and 4 from lootdrops. Whats the difference? First of all, if they have a sigil, their salvage value is around 3s higher than crafted ones, so their price is more related to the price of ectos than precursors.
The supply side of rares with sigils also isnt as easy raisable as crafted ones because you cant really farm them in excess, while you can literally craft thousands of staves with the supply of t5 mats on the tp. So when the precursor prices spike, people throw in more rares into the mf to add more supply of pres to the economy. It doesnt actually matter, if a TP Baron throws in 100k rares into the mf or 10k players throw in 100 rares each into the mf because statistically, they produce the same amount of precursors.
But I would wager you a day of my profits that in a scenario like this, the amount of crafted rares far outweighs the amount of rares from lootdrops being destroyed.
So if you want to know, if there is a relation, you should take the 7 crafted (disregard givers, apothecary and sentinel) staves as base of your calculations.

Your starting point also wasnt the best. In the early days/months of the game, a good amount of t5 mats was still used by the playerbase to level up their crafting. Some people still level crafts now of course, but now way more t5 mats are used for forging precursors.
And if you look at big picture of precursor prices, they have actually been quite stable for months compared to other items, which actually makes them a great tool to somehow measure inflation at a quick glance.
We had 2 “spikes” in precursor prices in recent history, the first in August/September and 1 just now. The first one was no doubt sparked by the 5-star-farmfests that were the Jubilee and Scarlets Invasions, which caused alot of inflation in mats and gold. From an economical point of view, I think those Events were introduced to flush gold and mats into the economy for the upcoming ascended crafting, which was introduced at the start of September. However, many people used their earned gold and went for a legendary instead of ascended. But we also forgot that Legendaries got a decent bump in functionality at that time because their stats were raised to ascended and you could chose your stats as well. The most recent price spike also went along with a bump in functionality (skins will be in the wardrobe and legendaries account bound). But if you would measure the price inflation of precursors between those 2 spikes, you will actually see that their inflation rate is between 10-20%, which i think, is quite an acceptable rate for an mmo economy in a span of over half a year and even both price spikes are understandable due to the bump in functionality.
If the average price of a precursor rises by 50g within a week, its looks like a massive spike for the average player because 50g is considered alot but related to the overall price of the precursor its still only a spike of 5-10%, which is not very much.

Take t4 totems for example:
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24363

They spiked 200-300% in April last year but nobody seemed to bother.

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

Rydralain.8126:

In this case, I think that more people with huge amounts of gold should actually reduce the wealth gap. More gold means spreading out risk more, which means more investments in the precursor market. This would increase the supply of precursors and increase the amount of gold made from selling those rares.

We already know, straight from JS himself, that the number of wealthy players does not impact the economy as much as some people think. .

No we don’t. He said and I quote:

John Smith.4610:

There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

Individual rich players.

He never said anything about the whole of players with ig wealth. Until he says the whole<—-key word meaning all, not individual…of them have no impact, what you are saying is false.

Well, if you are arguing that the wealth gap is so high (and you do), the few on top of the chain still wont make a proper impact on precursor demand because they are just too few. It doesnt even matter, if they act individually or as a group.

Rydralain.8126:

Behellagh.1468:

Take that Berserker Staff. It was more expensive Feb 1, 2013 than Apr 1, 2014. Same is true with most of the other rare staves you listed. So it’s easy to cherry pick a start and end data, not saying that you did. That’s why you look year over year.

Thanks, I’m happy to see someone with some economics knowledge in here. I chose my timeframe based on cutting off the very beginning of the data, where the markets initially normalised, and the last end-of-month before the most recent patch, where we’re still normalising. Also, I believe that all timeframes are arbitrary, but you’re right that years look less suspicious. To be honest, your data is much closer to what I was expecting.

We also have to consider that the economy in general was way more unstable in the first 6 months than in the last 6 months. That had several reasons.

1. the economy is way bigger than a year ago (in gold and items) which makes it harder to get into disequilibrium
2. the core of the playerbase is at endgame now compared to all over the place in the first 3-6 months. that makes it easier to predict most of the time.
3. the economy is far less prone to be exploited now (farm bots, duplication exploits, etc.)
4. John Smith and his team have a far better knowledge now than at the start of the game because their data is far bigger and they were able to gather alot of feedback.

Samuirai actually made a very decent (and viewable attempt) to measure item price inflation, which was very interesting in my opinion and you should have a look, if you are interested in the subject. However, keep in mind that we, as users, can only measure item price inflation and not gold inflation because we have no API data on how much gold enters and leaves the economy.

Here is the topic about inflation, the OP includes links to the inflation graphs and video.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-Inflation-Research/first#post3688841

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

Rydralain.8126:

In this case, I think that more people with huge amounts of gold should actually reduce the wealth gap. More gold means spreading out risk more, which means more investments in the precursor market. This would increase the supply of precursors and increase the amount of gold made from selling those rares.

We already know, straight from JS himself, that the number of wealthy players does not impact the economy as much as some people think. .

No we don’t. He said and I quote:

John Smith.4610:

There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

Individual rich players.

He never said anything about the whole of players with ig wealth. Until he says the whole<—-key word meaning all, not individual…of them have no impact, what you are saying is false.

Well, if you are arguing that the wealth gap is so high (and you do), the few on top of the chain still wont make a proper impact on precursor demand because they are just too few. It doesnt even matter, if they act individually or as a group.

you are incorrect here.
You are assuming you have a certain type of bell curve here, but you have to look at the real data.

I beleive what we have in this game is not so much a tycoon ruling everyone, as much as an aristocracy.

I theorize that there is a large drop off in earnings/wealth from one playstyle to the next.

Essentially the reward game is ruled by the merchant class, which probably makes up like 20% of the population, and earns like 200-300% more than the middleclass.

This 20% can by and large maintain prices on things that have rarity, or a large generation cost in man hours. Also realize, that since this is a merchant class, and earning is non linear, they have new people entering the merchant class, and leaving it all the time. The earning potential difference is also fairly rapid. A money focused merchant earner can probably go from 0 to 700 gold or more.in a month. whereas the average player probably hasnt gone past 200 gold in his inventory at a time in a year of play

Now before people say, hey, that means anyone can do it, no it means that a certain % of people can do it at will, and furthermore its a specific playstyle that isnt really the main demographic of the game.

The wealth disparity here is essentially a class disparity.

The wealth disparity is not a class disparity. It’s a self-enforced disparity due to lack of motivation, greed, jealousy, and unwillingness to learn.

In one month, just using level 500 crafts for T7 refinements (assuming I farmed/salvaged all the materials), any player can made on average 650g before sale fees. This is completely disregarding the amount of gold and other materials farmed/salvaged in the process.

It’s only hard to make money if you refuse to do what makes money, and none of it relies on the tradepost to be the source of money. The tradepost is merely the middleman.

Aidan Savage.2078:

In one month, just using level 500 crafts for T7 refinements (assuming I farmed/salvaged all the materials), any player can made on average 650g before sale fees.

If you bought the refined material eg. iron ingot instead of ore. For bolt of damask, spirit wood plank you acutally loss money crafting for sell.

Deldrimore steelingot you make 1.53 gold, elonian leather square you make 52 silver. SO basically 2 gold per day. And basically 60 gold per month. If you refined the basic material I presume profit is a bit higher maybe 70-80 gold per month.

Profit is a lot higher if you farm the material. But still pretty nice for just clicking a few buttons per day if you don’t.

The only real major investment you would have to put in if you’re buying materials is the silk scraps. Mithril, leather, and the wood you can accumulate just from salvaging items. As long as you’re making the T7 ecto refinements each day, it doesnt matter WHEN in the month you craft the finished resource as long as you do eventually. Damask does make profit however, as long as you’re buying the right items at the right price. Buying bolts of fabric is almost always more expensive than the scraps themselves.

It’s about 1 gold per damask. But you’ll need to refine your own material.

Bolt of Damask price amount
bolt of wool 6.5 20 130
bolt of cotton 6.78 10 67.8
bolt of linen 12.1 20 242
bolt of silk 5.04 100 504
ecto 37 1 37
thermocatalyc reagent 15 1 15
spool of gossamer thread 0.64 25 16
1011.8 1190.3529411765

And we veer off into crafting tips for coin.

Come on, lets get back to vilifying wealthy players who must have gotten their fortunes from using the TP and figure out a way to shaft them properly while minimizing blow back onto the unwashed masses.

Behellagh.1468:

Come on, lets get back to vilifying wealthy players who must have gotten their fortunes from using the TP

Aside from the gold from dungeons and the piddly copper from events, where do you think us normal players get our gold from too?

and figure out a way to shaft them properly while minimizing blow back onto the unwashed masses.

Sarcasm aside, this is the embodiment of my previous statement. The disparity is fueled by lack of motivation, greed, jealousy, and inability to learn.

Also, figuring out how to make money more easily, or shaving golds off costs for the ways you already make money, IS relevant to this topic because they disagree with the ‘fact’ “money is hard to make” many people are using as the basis of their argument.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Behellagh.1468:

Come on, lets get back to vilifying wealthy players who must have gotten their fortunes from using the TP

Aside from the gold from dungeons and the piddly copper from events, where do you think us normal players get our gold from too?

and figure out a way to shaft them properly while minimizing blow back onto the unwashed masses.

Sarcasm aside, this is the embodiment of my previous statement. The disparity is fueled by lack of motivation, greed, jealousy, and inability to learn.

Also, figuring out how to make money more easily, or shaving golds off costs for the ways you already make money, IS relevant to this topic because they disagree with the ‘fact’ “money is hard to make” many people are using as the basis of their argument.

Actually, the perceiving problem of some players making lots of profit on the tp, while the masses cant keep up, is its own solution. Bring the masses to the tp and let them make good choices that aim at profit and not instant gratification and there wont be a profit disparity on the TP anymore.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Albadaran.1283:

Simply this: its a game. And a game should not mess up with real world economy rules. Players just want to have fun. No taxes or other negative real world features…

And it’s John’s job to make sure that players DO have fun by balancing the value of Gold and individual items. I’m sure you wouldn’t be having much fun if a single Vial of Powerful Blood or Vicious Claw cost 25 Gold each.

We are discussing the tax rates. Without those rates prices would be more transparant and no, it won’t touch the game balance at all!

Um, yes it would because there needs to be ways to remove gold form the game, as much as you think it ruins players fun … unless you think fun is chasing inflation while earning gold because there is no gold sinks.

Wanze.8410:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Behellagh.1468:

Come on, lets get back to vilifying wealthy players who must have gotten their fortunes from using the TP

Aside from the gold from dungeons and the piddly copper from events, where do you think us normal players get our gold from too?

and figure out a way to shaft them properly while minimizing blow back onto the unwashed masses.

Sarcasm aside, this is the embodiment of my previous statement. The disparity is fueled by lack of motivation, greed, jealousy, and inability to learn.

Also, figuring out how to make money more easily, or shaving golds off costs for the ways you already make money, IS relevant to this topic because they disagree with the ‘fact’ “money is hard to make” many people are using as the basis of their argument.

Actually, the perceiving problem of some players making lots of profit on the tp, while the masses cant keep up, is its own solution. Bring the masses to the tp and let them make good choices that aim at profit and not instant gratification and there wont be a profit disparity on the TP anymore.

Well… you can lead a dolyak to water….

Wanze.8410:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Behellagh.1468:

Come on, lets get back to vilifying wealthy players who must have gotten their fortunes from using the TP

Aside from the gold from dungeons and the piddly copper from events, where do you think us normal players get our gold from too?

and figure out a way to shaft them properly while minimizing blow back onto the unwashed masses.

Sarcasm aside, this is the embodiment of my previous statement. The disparity is fueled by lack of motivation, greed, jealousy, and inability to learn.

Also, figuring out how to make money more easily, or shaving golds off costs for the ways you already make money, IS relevant to this topic because they disagree with the ‘fact’ “money is hard to make” many people are using as the basis of their argument.

Actually, the perceiving problem of some players making lots of profit on the tp, while the masses cant keep up, is its own solution. Bring the masses to the tp and let them make good choices that aim at profit and not instant gratification and there wont be a profit disparity on the TP anymore.

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

The point is, people who dont want to be merchants are forced to be merchants/farm grind in order to succeed. Why is this a problem? because its not supposed to be a merchant simulation game. The valuable rewards/goals should not be tied heavily to a method of aquisition that doesnt fall in line with the gameplay demographic of the game.

So either they need to make alternate ways of achieving award on a personal basis, or they need to make people who play able to get more of the pie, but i really dont see how they can do that. Merchants will just add that to the operating costs and pass it on.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Behellagh.1468:

Come on, lets get back to vilifying wealthy players who must have gotten their fortunes from using the TP

Aside from the gold from dungeons and the piddly copper from events, where do you think us normal players get our gold from too?

and figure out a way to shaft them properly while minimizing blow back onto the unwashed masses.

Sarcasm aside, this is the embodiment of my previous statement. The disparity is fueled by lack of motivation, greed, jealousy, and inability to learn.

Also, figuring out how to make money more easily, or shaving golds off costs for the ways you already make money, IS relevant to this topic because they disagree with the ‘fact’ “money is hard to make” many people are using as the basis of their argument.

If this is your opinion, why dont you advocate for changing the system from a merchant meritocracy, to a complete one. Put super rare hard to obtain items in competitive gameplay. Then the rich will have to use their money to buy these items, or get them themselves.

Why not also add account bound items that wont contribute to the market, but allow people to work towards the same goals. Then money will be an option to exchange value of services, rather than the only way to “survive” (survival in an mmo is feeling you can keep playing without hating what you have to do)

greed and jealousy are irrelevant, they are heavily ingrained in the TP merchant playstyle as much as any other.

laziness is not accurate. many people play a lot and dont come out ahead that much. Doing the prime games mode of play is one of the least profitable/progressive means of playing the game (dynamic events) Doing the hardest content in the game is less profitable than grinding/farming and playing the tp is way more profitable.
Exploration?
Jumping puzzles?
Mini dungeons?
Chest hunting?
Even champion hunting and killing isnt profitable unless you create a route, and get enough people to trivialize the encounter.

the vast majority of gameplay is not profitable enough to earn high end things fast enough for most people.

The reward systems in the game so far tend to actually work against the game. Its mostly getting by on its content. As the game currently stands, you go to work picking cotton for the TP merchants to middleman, or because you are a tp merchant yourself, so that you can get the things you want, to increase your enjoyment of the game.

phys.7689:

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

Wanze and others have been explaining this for as long as people have been complaining about the TP. What you don’t understand is that this is not a problem.

Everyone has the opportunity and the choice to go for instant gratification and minimal interaction with the TP, or to play the TP to get the most out of it. Just like any other aspect of the game.

I don’t run dungeons. Dungeons provide a lot of loot, as well as items that are unique and can only be obtained through them. But I’m not going to demand that they do away with dungeons or give me the things I can get from them without actually going into the dungeons. Other players are not doing anything wrong by running dungeons. Dungeons are not bad.

There’s nothing wrong with the TP as it is, and players make the choice for themselves whether to use it or not. That some choose not to make use of it does not make it wrong, or broken. There is nothing that can be done, nothing that needs to be done, if players choose not to get involved with the TP.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

Wanze and others have been explaining this for as long as people have been complaining about the TP. What you don’t understand is that this is not a problem.

Everyone has the opportunity and the choice to go for instant gratification and minimal interaction with the TP, or to play the TP to get the most out of it. Just like any other aspect of the game.

I don’t run dungeons. Dungeons provide a lot of loot, as well as items that are unique and can only be obtained through them. But I’m not going to demand that they do away with dungeons or give me the things I can get from them without actually going into the dungeons. Other players are not doing anything wrong by running dungeons. Dungeons are not bad.

There’s nothing wrong with the TP as it is, and players make the choice for themselves whether to use it or not. That some choose not to make use of it does not make it wrong, or broken. There is nothing that can be done, nothing that needs to be done, if players choose not to get involved with the TP.

so basically you are saying its good design to have 90% of high end items be obtained primarily through one mode of play 3-10 times faster than any other. Which is not even the prime demographic of the game.

So to be clear, you believe and understand that tp merchanting is and should be the primary method of obtainining most (not all) endgame items?

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

Wanze and others have been explaining this for as long as people have been complaining about the TP. What you don’t understand is that this is not a problem.

Everyone has the opportunity and the choice to go for instant gratification and minimal interaction with the TP, or to play the TP to get the most out of it. Just like any other aspect of the game.

I don’t run dungeons. Dungeons provide a lot of loot, as well as items that are unique and can only be obtained through them. But I’m not going to demand that they do away with dungeons or give me the things I can get from them without actually going into the dungeons. Other players are not doing anything wrong by running dungeons. Dungeons are not bad.

There’s nothing wrong with the TP as it is, and players make the choice for themselves whether to use it or not. That some choose not to make use of it does not make it wrong, or broken. There is nothing that can be done, nothing that needs to be done, if players choose not to get involved with the TP.

so basically you are saying its good design to have 90% of high end items be obtained primarily through one mode of play 3-10 times faster than any other. Which is not even the prime demographic of the game.

So to be clear, you believe and understand that tp merchanting is and should be the primary method of obtainining most (not all) endgame items?

It’s not that it should be, it’s that it can be. For anyone. You play how you do, and others play how they do, and the TP normalizes most prices, and everyone progresses at the rate of their play regardless of how fast others do.

Rydralain.8126:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

Wanze and others have been explaining this for as long as people have been complaining about the TP. What you don’t understand is that this is not a problem.

Everyone has the opportunity and the choice to go for instant gratification and minimal interaction with the TP, or to play the TP to get the most out of it. Just like any other aspect of the game.

I don’t run dungeons. Dungeons provide a lot of loot, as well as items that are unique and can only be obtained through them. But I’m not going to demand that they do away with dungeons or give me the things I can get from them without actually going into the dungeons. Other players are not doing anything wrong by running dungeons. Dungeons are not bad.

There’s nothing wrong with the TP as it is, and players make the choice for themselves whether to use it or not. That some choose not to make use of it does not make it wrong, or broken. There is nothing that can be done, nothing that needs to be done, if players choose not to get involved with the TP.

so basically you are saying its good design to have 90% of high end items be obtained primarily through one mode of play 3-10 times faster than any other. Which is not even the prime demographic of the game.

So to be clear, you believe and understand that tp merchanting is and should be the primary method of obtainining most (not all) endgame items?

It’s not that it should be, it’s that it can be. For anyone. You play how you do, and others play how they do, and the TP normalizes most prices, and everyone progresses at the rate of their play regardless of how fast others do.

no, you are making a mistake, because you are assuming that these goals are static, and that no method is noticeably faster.

say for example you want a dusk. Dusk went up 170 gold in the last 6 months. This means if you dont make 170 extra gold in 6 months, you cannot even handle the interest.
If you only save up 200 gold in 6 months it means that only 30 of these gold is going towards the item every 6 months.

The same holds true for any gemstore item, its a moving goal. you have to earn faster than it inflates. And inflation will always happen, in fact generally economists irl prefer controlled inflation to defaltion or stagnation.

Prices for high end items are placed to sell to high end players, the aristocracy. Do you really think a normal player who can only save 5 gold a week, is really the main market for a costume shop item that is 90 gold, and will be 120 gold by the time he earns 90 gold?

The average player will always be competing with people who make the same money 3 to10 times faster than he can. Note, i did not say person, i said people.

Personally i think it is extremely bad game design to have the long term and high end goals for players be virtually unattainable or extremely tedious, and in fact more costly, unless they play the game in a very limited game mode that isnt even the focus of the game.

The only reason this type of model even works in real life is due to loans and credit.

phys.7689:

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

This is why you think a problem exists where it does not exist. We arent telling players to become TP players, which is idiotic and entirely wrong. We’re telling players to actually LOOK AT THE MARKETS when they sell items. And this isnt some “look for a few seconds and then insta-sell” either. Take the Carrion Tribal Short Bow of Blood for example. It’s “sell now” price is 3g4s1c. It’s “buy now” price however, is over three times that at 9g84s21c. If someone didnt care to look at prices closely, they’d have simply sold the bow they had for ~3g. If they looked closer, they might realize they can get a big more gold out of it than that, maybe even the full 9-10g of the sell listings.
In fact, that’s what I did when I had one to sell. Listed it at 6g50s about 3 days before the 15th, and it sold in the hours after the update because apparently someone wanted the bow for the skin. Not to mention it was below the sell prices enough they thought the 3g more than buy prices was enough for the speed of buying it now. Total time invested in the single sale? 3 minutes mostly because the price spread worried me.
Now, if you consider that a lot of dropped rares and exotics have a difference between the buy and sell listings of nearly 100% (or more) of the buy listings, someone who made 400g off rares sold through buy now, would have made closer to 800g by listing at sell listings instead.
It’s THIS that me and wanze are talking about. Teaching people how to make the most of what they drop as opposed to using just the TP to make money. Taking a moment to check the item prices BEFORE you click “sell” can make a difference of silvers on average, and golds one pricey items.

If people dont want to learn how to extract that little bit of extra money with a little thinking instead of mindless clicking, well… they can insert foot where complaints originate from.

Phys, the point is if players decided to price items for sale rather than going for the quick buck and placing orders rather than going for immediate gratification then flipping wouldn’t be a big thing.

Nobody’s suggesting everyone should be flipping, just that using the TP just like an NPC Vendor, give me coin NOW for this item, let me buy this item NOW allows flippers to find an environment to flourish in. But as long as players want instant gratification over getting more/spending less coin then other players willing to provide that will exist.

Aidan Savage.2078:

phys.7689:

and this is the key factor you guys just dont understand. Some people dont want to be merchants. Saying that people should just be merchants shows you there is a problem. Unless you play the merchant game, you are at a distinct disadvantage. You basically have a class disparity that comes down to merchants, and the top teir grinders coming out as the upper class.

This is why you think a problem exists where it does not exist. We arent telling players to become TP players, which is idiotic and entirely wrong. We’re telling players to actually LOOK AT THE MARKETS when they sell items. And this isnt some “look for a few seconds and then insta-sell” either. Take the Carrion Tribal Short Bow of Blood for example. It’s “sell now” price is 3g4s1c. It’s “buy now” price however, is over three times that at 9g84s21c. If someone didnt care to look at prices closely, they’d have simply sold the bow they had for ~3g. If they looked closer, they might realize they can get a big more gold out of it than that, maybe even the full 9-10g of the sell listings.
In fact, that’s what I did when I had one to sell. Listed it at 6g50s about 3 days before the 15th, and it sold in the hours after the update because apparently someone wanted the bow for the skin. Not to mention it was below the sell prices enough they thought the 3g more than buy prices was enough for the speed of buying it now. Total time invested in the single sale? 3 minutes mostly because the price spread worried me.
Now, if you consider that a lot of dropped rares and exotics have a difference between the buy and sell listings of nearly 100% (or more) of the buy listings, someone who made 400g off rares sold through buy now, would have made closer to 800g by listing at sell listings instead.
It’s THIS that me and wanze are talking about. Teaching people how to make the most of what they drop as opposed to using just the TP to make money. Taking a moment to check the item prices BEFORE you click “sell” can make a difference of silvers on average, and golds one pricey items.

If people dont want to learn how to extract that little bit of extra money with a little thinking instead of mindless clicking, well… they can insert foot where complaints originate from.

looking at the markets when you are selling things, and waiting for the right time. Counting the pennies, and seeing what makes what and whats actually truely cheaper.

You realize this is the basics of being a merchant or running a business?

Im fine with people running a business amassing massive gold. But you must remember this is an adventure game. It needs to have rewards and goals that the adventurer can achieve and excel at. Right now, most of what would normally be their goals, you would be a fool to go on an adventure to obtain.

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

Behellagh.1468:

Phys, the point is if players decided to price items for sale rather than going for the quick buck and placing orders rather than going for immediate gratification then flipping wouldn’t be a big thing.

Nobody’s suggesting everyone should be flipping, just that using the TP just like an NPC Vendor, give me coin NOW for this item, let me buy this item NOW allows flippers to find an environment to flourish in. But as long as players want instant gratification over getting more/spending less coin then other players willing to provide that will exist.

I know that. I realized that long ago shortly after the TP started working when people were selling items below npc price and taking a 10% loss to boot.

And thats why the TP is bad imo, you guys are playing against noobs, and essentially taking advantage of them. Its proffesional nba players going to the kiddie park and rejecting little kids. The only competition is mostly between each other to see who can pimp the noobs best. Numerous players sell their time for nothing. People should be charging more for items which use skill points, or require 1 day per item to make, and yet they sell it for less than its base parts. Its ridiculous.

IMO goods should be designed such that people only bring them to market if they actually want to be a merchant. Right now, the tp is required even if you dont care/want to think about selling at all. I got friends who have no idea how much an item is worth in parts, i advise them on whether they should craft an item, or buy the parts, or obtain it themselves, I tell them based on the market whether they will be better off salvaging or mystic forging. You cant really expect the average player to play the game at this level in order to succeed, when most of them bought an adventure game.

Thing is phys I never thought for even a moment NOT to price an item I’m putting up for sale myself. I couldn’t fathom why players wouldn’t spend the extra few seconds to even 1c undercut the current low sale price. Why were they leaving coin on the table? Even if they guess at something close to a midpoint between the high bid and low sale price, it would still be better but no, they want their money now, not an hour from now, not a day from now, not a week from now. “No, I’m willing to accept whatever some yahoo is saying they will pay now for it.” They have absolutely zero tolerance to risk. That 5% bid fee simply scares them too much, they want the guarantee sale.

So sorry if someone else is willing to take the risk and resell the item at or near the price players are willing to buy at. And if they make a little coin for their trouble, good for them. If they become stinking wealthy because they are willing to risk their in game fortune to do so, who am I to complain because I’m not?

phys.7689:

so basically you are saying its good design to have 90% of high end items be obtained primarily through one mode of play 3-10 times faster than any other. Which is not even the prime demographic of the game.

So to be clear, you believe and understand that tp merchanting is and should be the primary method of obtainining most (not all) endgame items?

By design, rare items are beyond the reach of the majority of players. When there are 1,000,000 players and 100,000 Dusks, most of the players will not be able to create Twilight. Most of the unbound Dusks are sold via the TP, so there are two ways to get Dusk – find a new one or buy one from the TP.

That’s just how it works.