Guild Wars 2

So many people in this thread don’t understand why this is a big deal… on a 5g item the 1c is so irrelevant. You shouldn’t be able to undercut by .01% and sell first because you’re technically “lowest.” I have a feeling that a lot of people haven’t tried selling the 5g+ items in the game yet, they don’t have a quick turnover. If someone undercuts you by 1c it can literally cause you to wait HOURS. You can’t simply re-list for 1c under them making it “competitive” because on a 5g item it costs you ~25s to re-list.

Something needs to change imo, I think someone had a good idea by saying to undercut you would have to do so by 1-2%. That’s significant enough that people would be hesitant.

Jealousy and failure to admit that you are bad at something are quite often the hidden motivation that drives any cries for changes.

Wazabi.1439:

Jealousy and failure to admit that you are bad at something are quite often the hidden motivation that drives any cries for changes.

1c undercutting sale is based on pure luck, especially at low sell rate. It has nothing to do with skill.

TP is the same as ebay. Undercutting by 1c is part of the process.

If there was an easy and convenient way to reundercut without withdrawing the item, (for a penalty or not), and re-listing the item, that would sound more reasonable.

Rage The Numbers.7943:

TP is the same as ebay. Undercutting by 1c is part of the process.

If there was an easy and convenient way to reundercut without withdrawing the item, (for a penalty or not), and re-listing the item, that would sound more reasonable.

Changing sell order(lower price only), for a small fixed fee would do that.
Problem is not undercutting itself, it’s 5% fee to change price(remove and relist).

TP is the same as ebay. Undercutting by 1c is part of the process.
If there was an easy and convenient way to reundercut without withdrawing the item, (for a penalty or not), and re-listing the item, that would sound more reasonable.

It isn’t. You don’t necessarily sell your item on ebay because you’re 1 cent lower than other people, it isn’t absolute like it is on the trading post. There are other factors to consider. That isn’t a very good comparison.

I wish alot of people would learn more about economics and competitive strategies when buying/selling. Do these same people complain in real life at prices?

AllAmerDB.2840:

I wish alot of people would learn more about economics and competitive strategies when buying/selling. Do these same people complain in real life at prices?

So, how many companies charged 5% for changing price on their product? Fail comparison is fail.

honestly i think the vendor price should be raised on most items but i hope you don’t do it because i make tons of money off the trading post. the easiest way to make gold is just to farm the TP and play the under/over game

One of the biggest problems for people trying to make money on the TP are people who list items for insignificantly lower prices than the previous low in order to get their item sold first.
On higher-end items, that 1c difference is completely and utterly meaningless, no one will even bat an eye at the difference, but it still gets the cheaper one sold first.

A way to kill this ridiculous behavior would be to prevent people from listing items for an insignificant amount less than the previous listing (say, 1 or 2 percent).
This would force people that undercut prices in order to cut in line to actually have to notice the loss.

Now all you have done is sped up how fast prices will hit equilibrium so your solution is not a solution for you.

Do you have any other ideas?

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not have bought stocks/foreign currencies/bonds etc in real life. That is exactly how real world economics/finance work. Hyper-trading by large financial firms work at extremely small differences in prices.

If you have problem with 1c undercutting then you don’t understand economics nor human behaviour.

Elythor.6320:

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not have bought stocks/foreign currencies/bonds etc in real life. That is exactly how real world economics/finance work. Hyper-trading by large financial firms work at extremely small differences in prices.

If you have problem with 1c undercutting then you don’t understand economics nor human behaviour.

Because obviously huge financial firms have to pay 5% of the value of every single thing they’re trading whenever they want to change a price at all.

Elythor.6320:

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not have bought stocks/foreign currencies/bonds etc in real life. That is exactly how real world economics/finance work. Hyper-trading by large financial firms work at extremely small differences in prices.

If you have problem with 1c undercutting then you don’t understand economics nor human behaviour.

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not had sold anything in a competitive environment before…but definately had bought many under the same environment and you won’t hear them complain.

I ask this: “How many people had tried to hunt for a lower price for something that they wanted to buy?” Did you complain about undercutting? No because it doesn’t matter to you…undercutting benefits you at that time.

Now in an MMO, it’s probably the first time you are actually selling something under a competitive environment…you failed to compete…and you blame the system that you had been “benefiting” all these time?

Take this as an indication that you do not know how to trade and brush up on it. This is also why so many small businesses fails in the real world.

Colorofviolence.7964:

“how do we kill free market competition? I don’t like it.”

I lol’d. Thank you.

Wazabi.1439:

Elythor.6320:

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not have bought stocks/foreign currencies/bonds etc in real life. That is exactly how real world economics/finance work. Hyper-trading by large financial firms work at extremely small differences in prices.

If you have problem with 1c undercutting then you don’t understand economics nor human behaviour.

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not had sold anything in a competitive environment before…but definately had bought many under the same environment and you won’t hear them complain.

Fail example is fail. For a 5g-50s item, that difference is non-existant, and not benefit buyer in any way.

I ask this: “How many people had tried to hunt for a lower price for something that they wanted to buy?” Did you complain about undercutting? No because it doesn’t matter to you…undercutting benefits you at that time.

Now in an MMO, it’s probably the first time you are actually selling something under a competitive environment…you failed to compete…and you blame the system that you had been “benefiting” all these time?

Problem is not undercutting itself, it’s 5% tax for lower price.

Take this as an indication that you do not know how to trade and brush up on it. This is also why so many small businesses fails in the real world.

That’s an indication of hypocrite.
1st, game is not a real world, it’s market is artificial. You can get anything in any part of the world, where is a TP agent, and you can sell anything from anywhere. And there is strange restriction for change price on the sell orders, while no restriction on the buy orders.
2nd, how many companies in real world, pay 5% tax for changing price on their own products?

Elythor.6320:

People who complain about 1c undercutting must not have bought stocks/foreign currencies/bonds etc in real life. That is exactly how real world economics/finance work. Hyper-trading by large financial firms work at extremely small differences in prices.

If you have problem with 1c undercutting then you don’t understand economics nor human behaviour.

I’ve bought stocks in real life and GW2 market is not at all similar. I can choose to sell my stock at a loss sure, but you sure as hell wont see me do that on purpose. The problem is that in game gold doesn’t matter to anyone. If I dont have enough gold at the end of the month, I don’t lose my house or my car, I just can’t use that waypoint over there.

I’ll go to a gas station that is 2 cents lower to get cheaper gas.. I don’t hear Exxon complaining that Texaco is 2 cents lower and getting more customers..

Spectorx.9762:

I’ll go to a gas station that is 2 cents lower to get cheaper gas.. I don’t hear Exxon complaining that Texaco is 2 cents lower and getting more customers..

So, gas companies pay 5% tax to lower their price?

There is many factors in rl, that affects customer, and that’s not only cost. For example, i buy computer components in some specific company, and not going to another specific company with slightly lower prices, because in 1st company, process of returning|exchaning broken component is easy, and in second company – pain inkitten
MMO markets, like in EvE or GW2, – are models, abstract.
I’m fine with undercutting. Bu 1c undercutting is exploiting mechanism of TP to sell first, it has nothing to do with competition. Especially with 5% tax to lower your price. Ability to lower your price on sell order for free(or small fixed fee) will help.

No, you’re right, this is not the real world…but people’s behaviour are similar. They prefer cheaper goods, and I don’t think you are going to deny that. As for the tp, even though it is not real, it does follow economic principle. Now, seems that you think under cutting is bad for the economy, and that the 5% listing fee is also bad. How?

Wazabi.1439:

No, you’re right, this is not the real world…but people’s behaviour are similar. They prefer cheaper goods, and I don’t think you are going to deny that. As for the tp, even though it is not real, it does follow economic principle. Now, seems that you think under cutting is bad for the economy, and that the 5% listing fee is also bad. How?

Actually you get me wrong.
1. 1c undercutting is not bad for economy in general. It has no effect. What it is bad for – is for crafters. And together with only one armor(or weapon) set(gw2 is about models, not stats) per tier, + high rate of drop of blue and green items + eventually diminishing demand on any crafted items — it hurts crafters.
2. Problem is not with listing fee, problem is with inability to change sell orders price(lower), to lessen the exploiting sale mechanism of TP.

For example, EvE, with less restricted and less artificial market, – have 0.01 ISK undercutting and lot of it, but you can lower the price every 5 min for 100 ISK. Basic ship(frigate) cost 10000-100000 ISK, so that’s not much.

Maxter, you seem to be stuck on ‘real life’ companies not having to pay a 5% relisting fee.

Take a moment and think about the expense that goes into sales and marketing. There is, indeed, a fee associated with lowering one’s price when it comes to any product. This cost is the price of new signage (with the new price listed), the cost of personnel who have to update the prices, and even, potentially, remaking an entire ad campaign with a new listed price.

But, at the end of the day, the comparison of real world to game world only ever goes so far. 5% is an annoyance this is true and should be viewed as ‘the cost of doing business.’

I’d probably be happier without the 5% list fee but I’m okay with it being there as a gold sink.

Max
Glad we can find something to agree on. This game does not favor crafter…in fact dev never intended for crafter to make big money…it is by design. Even if undercutting does not exist, the drop rate and ease of maxing crafting reduces crafted good’s demand.

As for not able to change price, yes, it makes seller less flexible. Just means you have to put more thoughts into pricing your goods…and harder to speculate.

You might need to note the biggest difference between eve and this: logistics. This difference changes the way market behaves as well.

In all, i take it as a game with different rule…no big deal.

whiran.1473:

Maxter, you seem to be stuck on ‘real life’ companies not having to pay a 5% relisting fee.

Take a moment and think about the expense that goes into sales and marketing. There is, indeed, a fee associated with lowering one’s price when it comes to any product. This cost is the price of new signage (with the new price listed), the cost of personnel who have to update the prices, and even, potentially, remaking an entire ad campaign with a new listed price.

But, at the end of the day, the comparison of real world to game world only ever goes so far. 5% is an annoyance this is true and should be viewed as ‘the cost of doing business.’

I’d probably be happier without the 5% list fee but I’m okay with it being there as a gold sink.

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Wazabi.1439:

Max
Glad we can find something to agree on. This game does not favor crafter…in fact dev never intended for crafter to make big money…it is by design. Even if undercutting does not exist, the drop rate and ease of maxing crafting reduces crafted good’s demand.

And that’s why I’ve started speculating buy|sell orders on TP, instead of crafting.
And that’s really strange, btw. Why would you like to destroy crafting, for a reason to “less generation of gold by players”, when you can easily speculate buy|sell orders for a LOT more profits?
I just don’t get it.

As for not able to change price, yes, it makes seller less flexible. Just means you have to put more thoughts into pricing your goods…and harder to speculate.

Harder? Maybe. Less profitable? Absolutely not.

You might need to note the biggest difference between eve and this: logistics. This difference changes the way market behaves as well.

Actually, Jita system market in EvE(central trade hub for all game) is very much alike GW2 TP.

In all, i take it as a game with different rule…no big deal.

Well, I’ll always have my own share of profits, just by different means. I just don’t get, why crafters need punishment

As I’ve said, it’s by design. It’s even in the strategy guide….it says don’t expect to make big money. Aside form the factors you’ve listed, I think the most important is that it is too easy for anyone to max it. That creates more competition for selling crafted goods.

Whats funny is I bet Max undercut the previous seller by 2c and got upset someone undercut him for 1c. Pretty funny actually.

not much of undercutting with the tp down aye ?

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

Ahem..Not to get my head bitten off but there are some of us out there who do sell for a lower price (not always by one or two c mind you but in general) not to sell quicker but to give others a fairer more reasonable price, I mean I’ve seen semi crap low end items going for nearly double and sometimes triple what they are worth, just cause people want to make a buck. Honestly I think the market needs to just adjust and in my opinion the biggest annoyance and issue that we face now in the TP is the current downness issues.

Dishconnected.8360:

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

And it will stay that way. And not because of competition, but because there is almost no demand for blue and green items. Competion != selling item for a price lower, than components, from which item is crafted.
There is no adequate reason, why crafting designed to be a money sink, when there is another, a lot more profitable way, like TP speculations.

@max
Well…I think that may be the intention of dev, for money to be made from TP, thus encouraging more TP activity? I think it’s obvious that crafting is all about legendary…

I think this is great for prospecting tradesmen who can hold on to their wallets for a little longer than others. because when the prices drop to an all time low you buy a portion of the market and sell high at a time when it would look like they are about to inflate again.

Imposing more restrictions than there already are on the way we trade loot and get loot would hamper the economy even more. If you really have issue with this then don’t sell you stuff for pathetic prices and instead hold on to it if its valuable for when the market for such item is more lucrative your really only complaining about the fact that doing 1c difference causes rapid deflation which is true but that is actually a good thing depending on how you look at as mentioned above.

If your serious about getting value for your item then hold onto it wait and eventually there will be a cooling point in that market for you to sell the item for profit or overprice the item and still sell it.

I can totally understand why 1c deflation would be annoying if your wanting to sell your item immediately or within 48 hours but there really is nothing can be done to stop this as the system puts the lowest price on display and that is just how all economy works the only thing you can do and suggest others do is to have more respect and be good tradesmen or hold your really valued goods for times when that market is fluctuating less.

Wazabi.1439:

Jealousy and failure to admit that you are bad at something are quite often the hidden motivation that drives any cries for changes.

Now that I see this post from Wazabi I’ve classified him as a troll. He is trolling my thread that has somewhat to do with this as well.

Remember people. Wazabi = Troll

gimmethegepgun.1284:

One of the biggest problems for people trying to make money on the TP are people who list items for insignificantly lower prices than the previous low in order to get their item sold first.
On higher-end items, that 1c difference is completely and utterly meaningless, no one will even bat an eye at the difference, but it still gets the cheaper one sold first.

A way to kill this ridiculous behavior would be to prevent people from listing items for an insignificant amount less than the previous listing (say, 1 or 2 percent).
This would force people that undercut prices in order to cut in line to actually have to notice the loss.

Do you work for Apple? ;o) they don’t like competition either. It’s a free market & people can charge what they want.

The problem isnt the undercutting it’s the fact you cannot compete with it without relisting your items and incurring a large penalty.

Just give people thekittenoption to change the price of listed items DOWN only so they can compete, which will nullify undercutting. Currently the Trading Post works on a last in first out system, even if they keep saying it doesnt. Who ever posts their item last gets first sale for no real price difference.

Simple fix tbh.

The ridiculous part is that I am sure there’s plenty of 1c cutters that are losing money.

Example: the trinket market. At the moment the profit (sell value minus the average cost of the ingredients) is so narrow that if you happen to have to change the price of your goods ONCE then you are already losing money. Still, idiots are 1c-undercutting all the time and AS A RESULT of that other idiots 1c-undercut them over and over. As a result the smart*** that undercut now has to reprice his/her item or he won’t make a sale at all, but by losing 5% on it the profit is gone. And that is if he/she has to reprice it only once. Don’t get me started about having to reprice it twice or more.
To recap: profit in the trinket market at the moment is about 15-25 silver a piece. REPRICING is about 12-13 silver each time. See the problem?

Point being, when the profit is narrow people should stop “competing” and be a little more patient. As producers we could settle on a price and just have stuff pile up at that price, and sooner or later it would get sold. The contant undercutting is not hurting me, it is hurting EVERYBODY (except the buyers, of course), including and especially that person that feels smart just because by going 1c lower the lowest price he/she will MAYBE make a quick sale. Or most likely will lose money.

I know this is not going to change, humans are… well.. humans. Bit if common sense could prevail for once, people would just understand that the profit margin on some goods is too low to let those money go into that 5% sink just to pat your back and tell yourself in the mirror that you are such a cool seller. It’s not worth it.

The challenge here is NOT to make a few sales, it is to make a profit in a confused market with huge, preemptive taxes.

And yes, once again, the problem is NOT the 1c cutting. It is the 5% to reprice stuff. Competition would be really fun and healthier without that anticipated 5%. But since we have it, everyone should rush less and think more.

Wazabi.1439:

@max
Well…I think that may be the intention of dev, for money to be made from TP, thus encouraging more TP activity? I think it’s obvious that crafting is all about legendary…

I just don’t know, how this kind of market is supposed to be compatible with themepark mmo at all. With diminishing demand almost for everything.
As for crafting, they could made it profitable. Reduced drops for blue-green items, more models per tier, and such.
Maybe they think that market play is less accessible for most players, than crafting?

Example: the trinket market. At the moment the profit (sell value minus the average cost of the ingredients) is so narrow that if you happen to have to change the price of your goods ONCE then you are already losing money. Still, idiots are 1c-undercutting all the time and AS A RESULT of that other idiots 1c-undercut them over and over. As a result the smart*** that undercut now has to reprice his/her item or he won’t make a sale at all, but by losing 5% on it the profit is gone. And that is if he/she has to reprice it only once. Don’t get me started about having to reprice it twice or more.
To recap: profit in the trinket market at the moment is about 15-25 silver a piece. REPRICING is about 12-13 silver each time. See the problem?

Actually, 1c undercutting works. If you are lucky of course; you can ever make new items from money from that sale, and undercut(1c) again.

And yes, once again, the problem is NOT the 1c cutting. It is the 5% to reprice stuff. Competition would be really fun and healthier without that anticipated 5%. But since we have it, everyone should rush less and think more.

More funny in this case, those who undercut much more than 1c. To the point of completely losing profit.
And some who thinks that gathered by themselves resources cost nothing

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

And it will stay that way. And not because of competition, but because there is almost no demand for blue and green items. Competion != selling item for a price lower, than components, from which item is crafted.
There is no adequate reason, why crafting designed to be a money sink, when there is another, a lot more profitable way, like TP speculations.

Pray tell, in what MMO have you been able to profit always from lower-tier items that are of limited use while leveling?

I’ll give you a hint – it probably involved tiered PvP and twinking. :P

KwwB.3895:

Wazabi.1439:

Jealousy and failure to admit that you are bad at something are quite often the hidden motivation that drives any cries for changes.

Now that I see this post from Wazabi I’ve classified him as a troll. He is trolling my thread that has somewhat to do with this as well.

Remember people. Wazabi = Troll

He’s half-correct.

He probably meant envy but the emotional factors remain the same for why people whine on the forums:

1. They want what other people have and they want it now so they post trying to change the system because
2. They aren’t successful making money and in their frustration don’t realize they need to adapt to the system [learn, improve, get better, not suck at trading] and not vice versa.

Dishconnected.8360:

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

And it will stay that way. And not because of competition, but because there is almost no demand for blue and green items. Competion != selling item for a price lower, than components, from which item is crafted.
There is no adequate reason, why crafting designed to be a money sink, when there is another, a lot more profitable way, like TP speculations.

Pray tell, in what MMO have you been able to profit always from lower-tier items that are of limited use while leveling?

I’ll give you a hint – it probably involved tiered PvP and twinking. :P

EvE
SWTOR, bekittenthat thing.

Cub Discus Gig.2176:

The problem isnt the undercutting it’s the fact you cannot compete with it without relisting your items and incurring a large penalty.

Just give people thekittenoption to change the price of listed items DOWN only so they can compete, which will nullify undercutting. Currently the Trading Post works on a last in first out system, even if they keep saying it doesnt. Who ever posts their item last gets first sale for no real price difference.

Simple fix tbh.

Wrong. It’s FIFO and unless you have data to back up your claim there is no reason to accept your conclusion as valid. Recant your statement or admit you don’t know how it truly works.

Before you come back stating that you can undercut by 1c and therefore be “first” in line… when you undercut by 1c and 5 people come in behind you at the same price, yours will get sold first at that price assuming you are not undercut by another 1c. It’s still FIFO.

Also, your solution will not nullify undercutting. It will make it easier for you to make profit because then you only have to take the 5% listing fee into account once.

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

And it will stay that way. And not because of competition, but because there is almost no demand for blue and green items. Competion != selling item for a price lower, than components, from which item is crafted.
There is no adequate reason, why crafting designed to be a money sink, when there is another, a lot more profitable way, like TP speculations.

Pray tell, in what MMO have you been able to profit always from lower-tier items that are of limited use while leveling?

I’ll give you a hint – it probably involved tiered PvP and twinking. :P

EvE
SWTOR, bekittenthat thing.

Wait one month and come back to the thread then. :o)

Dishconnected.8360:

KwwB.3895:

Wazabi.1439:

Jealousy and failure to admit that you are bad at something are quite often the hidden motivation that drives any cries for changes.

Now that I see this post from Wazabi I’ve classified him as a troll. He is trolling my thread that has somewhat to do with this as well.

Remember people. Wazabi = Troll

He’s half-correct.

He probably meant envy but the emotional factors remain the same for why people whine on the forums:

1. They want what other people have and they want it now so they post trying to change the system because
2. They aren’t successful making money and in their frustration don’t realize they need to adapt to the system [learn, improve, get better, not suck at trading] and not vice versa.

He’s right only partially. Me, for example – i already have my share of profits, i just don’t get why crafting made this way. If I’d only playing market, i’d even not care about inability to change price without losing 5%, as it barely has any direct effect on speculations.

Dishconnected.8360:

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

And it will stay that way. And not because of competition, but because there is almost no demand for blue and green items. Competion != selling item for a price lower, than components, from which item is crafted.
There is no adequate reason, why crafting designed to be a money sink, when there is another, a lot more profitable way, like TP speculations.

Pray tell, in what MMO have you been able to profit always from lower-tier items that are of limited use while leveling?

I’ll give you a hint – it probably involved tiered PvP and twinking. :P

EvE
SWTOR, bekittenthat thing.

Wait one month and come back to the thread then. :o)

You’re implying that GW2 is dying, or that market will stabilize and crafting became profitable? or what?

Valid points, some not.

lefteye.7890:

The ridiculous part is that I am sure there’s plenty of 1c cutters that are losing money.

I’m sure there are but you are never going to stop that.

lefteye.7890:

Example: the trinket market. At the moment the profit (sell value minus the average cost of the ingredients) is so narrow that if you happen to have to change the price of your goods ONCE then you are already losing money. Still, idiots are 1c-undercutting all the time and AS A RESULT of that other idiots 1c-undercut them over and over. As a result the smart*** that undercut now has to reprice his/her item or he won’t make a sale at all, but by losing 5% on it the profit is gone. And that is if he/she has to reprice it only once. Don’t get me started about having to reprice it twice or more.
To recap: profit in the trinket market at the moment is about 15-25 silver a piece. REPRICING is about 12-13 silver each time. See the problem?

Yes. You expect to profit in an economy with a glut of supply. I understand it may be frustrating but you can only respond to the way that it is until it changes or hold on to your inventory until the profit margin is acceptable enough for you to take the risk.

Point being, when the profit is narrow people should stop “competing” and be a little more patient.

Hahaha. Your problem with human nature is the problem here. In a perfect world this would happen but the reality is that people sell for reasons other than making profit. That may frustrate you but there are valid reasons for doing so.

As producers we could settle on a price and just have stuff pile up at that price, and sooner or later it would get sold. The contant undercutting is not hurting me, it is hurting EVERYBODY (except the buyers, of course), including and especially that person that feels smart just because by going 1c lower the lowest price he/she will MAYBE make a quick sale. Or most likely will lose money.

Eventually the price will settle somewhere but the supply has to clear out of the system and until it does you will experience razor thin profit margins. You have no choice but to be patient yourself or move into a different market. It’s a buyer’s market. If I craft a bunch of kitten and I want my money back, I’m going to undercut by 1c if I stand to make a bit of profit off of it; if I don’t, I’m going to vendor it. Not everyone’s motivation is profit right now, plain and simple.

I know this is not going to change, humans are… well.. humans. Bit if common sense could prevail for once, people would just understand that the profit margin on some goods is too low to let those money go into that 5% sink just to pat your back and tell yourself in the mirror that you are such a cool seller. It’s not worth it.

Man, lose the attitude. Not everyone is motivated the same way you are. You are making a flawed assumption, common to economics – humans are NOT rational actors and they will do things that while they may not make sense to you they still affect you and your choice is to respond to their irrationality, not try and control it.

The challenge here is NOT to make a few sales, it is to make a profit in a confused market with huge, preemptive taxes.

Indeed it is. Have you found it yet?

And yes, once again, the problem is NOT the 1c cutting. It is the 5% to reprice stuff. Competition would be really fun and healthier without that anticipated 5%. But since we have it, everyone should rush less and think more.

Longer-term you will come out more profitable than then. In the meantime producers have to find another niche.

I went into Jewelry thinking dollar signs and I came out disappointed so I switched directions to find another way – it’s really all you can do.

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

Maxster.4521:

Dishconnected.8360:

As i said, markets in MMO is a model. And, as a model, they should contribute to a game elements, not to a real world theories. These are completely artificial markets, and in game.
5% listing tax, in a ideal model, affects no one. As is 10% sale tax. Speculants and crafters gets slightly less profits, but profits nonetheless. Buy and sell orders just adjusts to that 15% margin.
But, with inability to change sell order without a great loss of a profit, hurts crafters, and does nothing to speculants, so they get an advantage. Why? Because speculants have a lot more purchase power(and ways to increase purchase power) than crafters, for obvious reasons. While crafter sits with his money on tp, unable to sell, and unable to change order without losing already small profit; speculant can just work with another 10-15 positions.

Maxster, the game just came out and there is incredible competition to sell crafted goods.

Tell me again why you expected to profit from that?

And it will stay that way. And not because of competition, but because there is almost no demand for blue and green items. Competion != selling item for a price lower, than components, from which item is crafted.
There is no adequate reason, why crafting designed to be a money sink, when there is another, a lot more profitable way, like TP speculations.

Pray tell, in what MMO have you been able to profit always from lower-tier items that are of limited use while leveling?

I’ll give you a hint – it probably involved tiered PvP and twinking. :P

EvE
SWTOR, bekittenthat thing.

Wait one month and come back to the thread then. :o)

You’re implying that GW2 is dying, or that market will stabilize and crafting became profitable? or what?

Market is dying. LOL. I’m surprised you didn’t say “F2P in one month!”

The market will eventually stabilize and there may or may not be opportunities for profit in crafting. Ultimately the profitability is going to be determined by Anet’s development solutions and what they intend for it but as it stands it’s a buyer’s market so all you CAN do is wait or move into a different segment.

Market is dying. LOL. I’m surprised you didn’t say “F2P in one month!”

:D
Especially funny when it is from the beginning.

The market will eventually stabilize and there may or may not be opportunities for profit in crafting. Ultimately the profitability is going to be determined by Anet’s development solutions and what they intend for it but as it stands it’s a buyer’s market so all you CAN do is wait or move into a different segment.

C. O.
Of course, if anything will not be changed, it’s easy to predict that market state in context of crafting will remain the same, or worse. And, if crafting made that way by design decision, there will be no changes.
Actually, i already moved from crafting, when i analyzed that situation. And that was fast I go where money lies

As for “game dying” and other such things – i do not feel that way. Yes, they screwed the launch, and got mired in technical problems(for tp), but that will be solved. There is many great things in GW2, like Dynamic Events, which, i think, need to became standart for any mmo. And what i like most, there is no crap like “gear progression”, especially for pvp.

I’m glad we see eye-to-eye on this.

Your random blues and greens aren’t worth anything. They will likely never be worth anything. 1 cp undercutting doesn’t kill the market for items with a healthy demand and supply. It kills the market for things with a huge supply and little demand.

If the market says your item is worthless, then the item is worthless right now. Find something else to sell.