TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?
comparing playing the TP to powerball is laughable.
Thats an evasion, Thats like saying in a winner take all poker match people on average no one makes money.
You´re right, Poker is a way better comparison than Powerball.
within the scope of what we were talking about, it was.
you were saying that the tp on average loses 15% value.my comparison to poker was to show that the fact that others lose money is not really relevant to how much money is gained.
You dont want to use poker fine, we can put it a lot simplerBy your analysis definition, no market irl gives value on average, most people lose 10-20% of value based on taxes. Which completely evades the truth that some jobs make way more money than other jobs with similar resource expenditures.
I am not talking about markets irl, i am talking about the tp in game.
ok, forget these side debates, lets get to the core issue, i am asking players.
Forget what is right now, or why it is right now.
Do you personally think that a trader/merchant playstyle should give you a greater potential to gain value, than other playstyles in a game that hopes to have many different viable ways to interact with the world.
I think the potential to gain value should reflect the risk, knowledge and skills involved.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
comparing playing the TP to powerball is laughable.
Thats an evasion, Thats like saying in a winner take all poker match people on average no one makes money.
You´re right, Poker is a way better comparison than Powerball.
within the scope of what we were talking about, it was.
you were saying that the tp on average loses 15% value.my comparison to poker was to show that the fact that others lose money is not really relevant to how much money is gained.
You dont want to use poker fine, we can put it a lot simplerBy your analysis definition, no market irl gives value on average, most people lose 10-20% of value based on taxes. Which completely evades the truth that some jobs make way more money than other jobs with similar resource expenditures.
I am not talking about markets irl, i am talking about the tp in game.
ok, forget these side debates, lets get to the core issue, i am asking players.
Forget what is right now, or why it is right now.
Do you personally think that a trader/merchant playstyle should give you a greater potential to gain value, than other playstyles in a game that hopes to have many different viable ways to interact with the world.
I think the potential to gain value should reflect the risk, knowledge and skills involved.
ok, i dont really disagree with that.
(another question, what about time invested, should that be a factor?)
but thats more the specifications the answer would have to meet.
assuming in whatever solution is presented, that should be the case,
do you think a merchant/trader playstyle should give more potential to gain value than other playstyles?
Do you personally think that a trader/merchant playstyle should give you a greater potential to gain value, than other playstyles in a game that hopes to have many different viable ways to interact with the world.
Yes.
Any system that attempts to prevent merchants from making higher profits than other playstyles results in a broken or non-functional economy.
Merchants can only exist in places where one of two things is present:
1. Complete economic control by a governing entity with merchants limited to only those who are authorized to engage in monopolistic trade, usually via buying the exclusive rights to a market from the government (see mercantilism).
2. Free trade, whereby buyers and sellers are able to negotiate prices based on supply and demand.
It is a fact of life that those who engage in trading will make more money than those who don’t. Because it is a fact of life, it is also a fact of game economies that use real life systems.
Server: Devona’s Rest
comparing playing the TP to powerball is laughable.
Thats an evasion, Thats like saying in a winner take all poker match people on average no one makes money.
You´re right, Poker is a way better comparison than Powerball.
within the scope of what we were talking about, it was.
you were saying that the tp on average loses 15% value.my comparison to poker was to show that the fact that others lose money is not really relevant to how much money is gained.
You dont want to use poker fine, we can put it a lot simplerBy your analysis definition, no market irl gives value on average, most people lose 10-20% of value based on taxes. Which completely evades the truth that some jobs make way more money than other jobs with similar resource expenditures.
I am not talking about markets irl, i am talking about the tp in game.
ok, forget these side debates, lets get to the core issue, i am asking players.
Forget what is right now, or why it is right now.
Do you personally think that a trader/merchant playstyle should give you a greater potential to gain value, than other playstyles in a game that hopes to have many different viable ways to interact with the world.
I think the potential to gain value should reflect the risk, knowledge and skills involved.
ok, i dont really disagree with that.
(another question, what about time invested, should that be a factor?)
but thats more the specifications the answer would have to meet.assuming in whatever solution is presented, that should be the case,
do you think a merchant/trader playstyle should give more potential to gain value than other playstyles?
Time invested usually depends on your knowledge and skill.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Do you personally think that a trader/merchant playstyle should give you a greater potential to gain value, than other playstyles in a game that hopes to have many different viable ways to interact with the world.
Yes.
Any system that attempts to prevent merchants from making higher profits than other playstyles results in a broken or non-functional economy.
Merchants can only exist in places where one of two things is present:
1. Complete economic control by a governing entity with merchants limited to only those who are authorized to engage in monopolistic trade, usually via buying the exclusive rights to a market from the government (see mercantilism).2. Free trade, whereby buyers and sellers are able to negotiate prices based on supply and demand.
It is a fact of life that those who engage in trading will make more money than those who don’t. Because it is a fact of life, it is also a fact of game economies that use real life systems.
I never said that the solution should limit the profit potentials of merchants. That would be the specifics and tests you run after you have a solution, before you have a solution you must first have a clearly stated problem.
This is the current method for science and engineering.
So you say yes, ok, why? without saying that its because merchant profits should be artificially limited, because that is not required to be the case.
(edited by phys.7689)
The theory that demand drives the price and economy is fine can be applied to any mmorpg ever existed.
Doesn t prove economy is healthy anyway, nor that flipping is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
Yet those with biased/negligible amount of data, studies, evidence still push that it is a “bad” economy.
lol, people tell people their theories and beliefs are wrong based on some one elses philosophical beliefs?
You also compare the a philosophy based on religion, to an idea of the economy, which one lives in and interacts with, and has much data, and reasons to form as valid an opinion as anyone else here?
The concept speaks of when you have a belief that seems unlikely based on the current knowledge set, versus a very likely one. The idea that economy is good (for the average player) is no more logically well founded than the idea that it is bad.
The best argument one can propose on this matter is that neither side has much evidence to support thier claims.
In the case of a lack of evidence, you generally rely on other factors such as reason, experiments, and even anecdotal evidence (which is actually better than no evidence) and philosophy.
What the…
The 2 statements only touch each other with a tangent. Do you not understand the concept of russell’s teapot? All you got from this is religious applications of arguments?…….
With lack of evidence you go for numbers and statistics, if you can;t conduct a proper study then don;t bother coming up with a conclusion – simple as that.
The man with the data has told us that gw2 inflation is very well controlled, either believe that or conduct your own study.
So to people with crackpot theories – show data or go home.
(edited by Bread.7516)
The theory that demand drives the price and economy is fine can be applied to any mmorpg ever existed.
Doesn t prove economy is healthy anyway, nor that flipping is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
Yet those with biased/negligible amount of data, studies, evidence still push that it is a “bad” economy.
lol, people tell people their theories and beliefs are wrong based on some one elses philosophical beliefs?
You also compare the a philosophy based on religion, to an idea of the economy, which one lives in and interacts with, and has much data, and reasons to form as valid an opinion as anyone else here?
The concept speaks of when you have a belief that seems unlikely based on the current knowledge set, versus a very likely one. The idea that economy is good (for the average player) is no more logically well founded than the idea that it is bad.
The best argument one can propose on this matter is that neither side has much evidence to support thier claims.
In the case of a lack of evidence, you generally rely on other factors such as reason, experiments, and even anecdotal evidence (which is actually better than no evidence) and philosophy.
What the…
The 2 statements only touch each other with a tangent. Do you not understand the concept of russell’s teapot?With lack of evidence you go for number and statistics, if you can;t conduct a proper study then don;t bother coming up with a conclusion – simple as that.
The man with the data has told us that gw2 inflation is very well controlled, either believe that or conduct your own study.
So to people with crackpot theories – show data or go home.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!
Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.
Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
(edited by Bread.7516)
So you say yes, ok, why? without saying that its because merchant profits should be artificially limited, because that is not required to be the case.
It is required to be the case if your goal is to NOT have traders be the most efficient at accruing currency. My goal is to have the economy be efficient, so I said that yes, traders should have better currency accrual rates than laborers.
In any system that contains currency, those who trade will accrue it at a faster rate than those who don’t trade and are paid it for labor. If you raise wages for labor, you exponentially raise currency accrual rates for traders because the traders get their currency from laborers.
The only way to avoid having trading be the most efficient method of accruing currency is to artificially impose restrictions on trading that are detrimental to the entire economy.
Server: Devona’s Rest
So you say yes, ok, why? without saying that its because merchant profits should be artificially limited, because that is not required to be the case.
It is required to be the case if your goal is to NOT have traders be the most efficient at accruing currency. My goal is to have the economy be efficient, so I said that yes, traders should have better currency accrual rates than laborers.
In any system that contains currency, those who trade will accrue it at a faster rate than those who don’t trade and are paid it for labor. If you raise wages for labor, you exponentially raise currency accrual rates for traders because the traders get their currency from laborers.
The only way to avoid having trading be the most efficient method of accruing currency is to artificially impose restrictions on trading that are detrimental to the entire economy.
my question wasnt about accruing currency, it was about gaining value, also, merchants, are not always the most profitable forms of business. In fact the two most profitable companies last year were apple an exon mobile, who in our version of the world would be a large gatherer, and a crafter.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)
(edited by phys.7689)
Two factors enable flipping:
- The GW2 economy is based around the TP. Of all the ways to earn gold directly, only dungeons provide amounts that aren’t measured in small to very small increments. The only way to get gold directly from other players is through path-selling or similar endeavors, or trusting enough to trade via mail. It’s no secret that most drops are salvaged and the products either used or TP’d. Rares and exotics (when not also salvaged) provide better revenue if sold on the TP. Further, the TP provides the game’s major gold sink.
- Player ignorance and/or impatience results in selling low and buying high.
ANet is not going to move the game’s economy away from the TP at this late date. And honestly, do you really think that ignorance and/or impatience are going to vanish anytime soon?
Sure, ANet could regulate flipping by imposing draconian restrictions. However, player ideas of what should provide the best access to gold are just that, player ideas. ANet designed the game so that the best access to gold is through the TP.
Two factors enable flipping:
- The GW2 economy is based around the TP. Of all the ways to earn gold directly, only dungeons provide amounts that aren’t measured in small to very small increments. The only way to get gold directly from other players is through path-selling or similar endeavors, or trusting enough to trade via mail. It’s no secret that most drops are salvaged and the products either used or TP’d. Rares and exotics (when not also salvaged) provide better revenue if sold on the TP. Further, the TP provides the game’s major gold sink.
- Player ignorance and/or impatience results in selling low and buying high.
ANet is not going to move the game’s economy away from the TP at this late date. And honestly, do you really think that ignorance and/or impatience are going to vanish anytime soon?
Sure, ANet could regulate flipping by imposing draconian restrictions. However, player ideas of what should provide the best access to gold are just that, player ideas. ANet designed the game so that the best access to gold is through the TP.
IMO Hard coded regulation of the TP isnt the answer to the problem, the best solutions would deal with overall design issues.
As you say, with the system designed as it currently is, the TP is almost always guaranteed to be the best source of gains, unless every body becomes a merchant type player.
my question wasnt about accruing currency, it was about gaining value, also, merchants, are not always the most profitable forms of business. In fact the two most profitable companies last year were apple an exon mobile, who in our version of the world would be a large gatherer, and a crafter.
Profitability is the ratio between revenue and expenses. It is not the same thing as currency accrual rate (though currency accrual is certainly a part of revenue). In Tyria, Apple and Exxon Mobile would not reflect a gatherer or a crafter, but would rather be a large, organized group of gatherers and crafters who are performing specific sets of actions as part of a large profit generating venture. They also have a large force dedicated to trading the commodities and products (almost no large business exists without touching several vertical supply chain stages). We don’t actually have any cartels like this (at least not publicly recognized ones) in Tyria, so we don’t have a good reflection of these real world corporations in game. In meta speak, the end results are achieved but through the individual actions of gatherers and crafters.
That aside, you are talking about accruing currency as that is the “value” that traders gain (gold).
Server: Devona’s Rest
my question wasnt about accruing currency, it was about gaining value, also, merchants, are not always the most profitable forms of business. In fact the two most profitable companies last year were apple an exon mobile, who in our version of the world would be a large gatherer, and a crafter.
Profitability is the ratio between revenue and expenses. It is not the same thing as currency accrual rate (though currency accrual is certainly a part of revenue). In Tyria, Apple and Exxon Mobile would not reflect a gatherer or a crafter, but would rather be a large, organized group of gatherers and crafters who are performing specific sets of actions as part of a large profit generating venture. They also have a large force dedicated to trading the commodities and products (almost no large business exists without touching several vertical supply chain stages). We don’t actually have any cartels like this (at least not publicly recognized ones) in Tyria, so we don’t have a good reflection of these real world corporations in game. In meta speak, the end results are achieved but through the individual actions of gatherers and crafters.
That aside, you are talking about accruing currency as that is the “value” that traders gain (gold).
ok, ignoring companies, the point still stands, many individuals can gain more value than merchants can irl through their different abilities. basketball players, inventors, artists, musicians, actors, designers, resource gatherers, transporters, etc. there are many examples of different people gaining more value on an individual basis than merchanting provides.
both traders and non traders get value, traders get it in gold, others get it in items. (and then sometimes turn it into gold)
for example, finding a precursor is gaining value, but it is not necesarrily gaining gold. Getting a ascended box is gaining value, but it is not gaining gold. Getting exotic dungeon armor is gaining value, but it is not gaining gold. finding a rich orichalcum node is gaining value, but is not necessarily gaining gold.
in many real world scenarios, the merchant does not make as much as the producer of the goods.
ok, ignoring companies, the point still stands, many individuals can gain more value than merchants can irl through their different abilities. basketball players, inventors, artists, musicians, actors, designers, resource gatherers, transporters, etc. there are many examples of different people gaining more value on an individual basis than merchanting provides.
both traders and non traders get value, traders get it in gold, others get it in items. (and then sometimes turn it into gold)
for example, finding a precursor is gaining value, but it is not necesarrily gaining gold. Getting a ascended box is gaining value, but it is not gaining gold. Getting exotic dungeon armor is gaining value, but it is not gaining gold. finding a rich orichalcum node is gaining value, but is not necessarily gaining gold.in many real world scenarios, the merchant does not make as much as the producer of the goods.
In terms of value/time, the merchant almost always makes more than the laborer. Luxury markets are an exception, as well as many abstract providers (painters, entertainers, etc.) now that we’ve invented mass media allowing them to quickly distribute their work with very little cost to virtually every human being alive (whereas before a sculptor or painter had to spend hours crafting a single piece which was then sold to a single buyer and a musician had to perform the song many times).
With regard to the Trading Post, we are always talking about currency accrual since every transaction requires currency to happen. The merchant is going to make more value/time than the gatherer/crafter will because the merchant isn’t gathering or crafting, they are efficiently matching up buyers and sellers and collecting a premium for this act.
Server: Devona’s Rest
ok, ignoring companies, the point still stands, many individuals can gain more value than merchants can irl through their different abilities. basketball players, inventors, artists, musicians, actors, designers, resource gatherers, transporters, etc. there are many examples of different people gaining more value on an individual basis than merchanting provides.
both traders and non traders get value, traders get it in gold, others get it in items. (and then sometimes turn it into gold)
for example, finding a precursor is gaining value, but it is not necesarrily gaining gold. Getting a ascended box is gaining value, but it is not gaining gold. Getting exotic dungeon armor is gaining value, but it is not gaining gold. finding a rich orichalcum node is gaining value, but is not necessarily gaining gold.in many real world scenarios, the merchant does not make as much as the producer of the goods.
In terms of value/time, the merchant almost always makes more than the laborer. Luxury markets are an exception, as well as many abstract providers (painters, entertainers, etc.) now that we’ve invented mass media allowing them to quickly distribute their work with very little cost to virtually every human being alive (whereas before a sculptor or painter had to spend hours crafting a single piece which was then sold to a single buyer and a musician had to perform the song many times).
With regard to the Trading Post, we are always talking about currency accrual since every transaction requires currency to happen. The merchant is going to make more value/time than the gatherer/crafter will because the merchant isn’t gathering or crafting, they are efficiently matching up buyers and sellers and collecting a premium for this act.
laborer is only one small subset of the availble jobs.
a man who owns a gold mine is neither a laborer or a merchant, though he can work his own land.
a man who owns and operates a transportation service, is not considered a laborer
a man who own properties and rents space is not considered a merchant or a laborer.
as far as merchants matching buyers and sellers having to be the main money, this is only the case in the current system. Many systems do not have the middleman as being the most profitable facet of business.
in many other systems the producer of the good/service gets more value on average than the merchant/middleman/flipper.
Though i will say, some things were a lot more difficult to produce.
currency is not required for every transaction.
it is not required for transforming items (crafting)
it is not required for obtaining items (hunting/gathering)
it is not even required for trading or giving items (direct trades which i have done with guildies/friends on numerous occaisions)
But see we are getting caught up in debates about what is currently the case again, what things are right now, is interesting, and valuable information, but it doesnt really resolve the question.
Should merchanting have the highest potential of gaining value (not talking about currency alone), when compared with other playstyles in the game?
if so why, if no why not.
just in principle, not as things are.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)
Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
i did forget to include laurels, but it doesnt really change the amount of hours played, and its also a one time only cost, (all my light armor users can use the same recipe for beserkers for example.
but lets say that sets the minimum at 5 days instead of 2 days, the cost in hours of play is still 3-5 versus 10-16 (to be clear i was speaking of one piece of crafted ascended armor)
(because i can do dailies while messing around on the TP, or while farming gold to buy the acsended crafted peices.)
but while traders hit the cap from laurels, farmers/dungeoners/etc cap is more determined by how long it takes them to earn 70-100 gold
(edited by phys.7689)
Unless it can be proved that “flipping” harms the economy (and I’m SURE that has been looked at closely by Anet for the last 18 months), I see no reason it should not exist, just because some players don’t like how it can generate wealth without actually playing the games content. If Anet says that’s ok, then it should be accepted that it IS ok.
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Here is the kicker … even if the data suggested flipping is actually bad for the game … Anet would know that better than anyone and they STILL have decided it’s not going to get changed!
Resume QQ.
You can’t stop flippers unless you seriously curtail some aspect of the TP which will impact everyone. Examples.
- Limit number of bids you can have. But this can impact salvagers, forgers and crafters. Likely to cause shortages of buyers on the TP in relation to supply flow which could cause prices to fall to vendor + 1c.
- Account bind bought items. Well you better really want that item, or that number of items then. Implementation problem to denote which items came from the TP and which were gathered/rewarded. Remember NPC vendor add coin to the global economy while the TP only removes some while transferring the rest.
Flipping is a direct result of players willing to leave money “on the table” when selling an item as well as their unwillingness to trade time for acquiring an item at a better price. When multiplied by the thousands of transactions done daily it can amount to a fair chunk of change.
A flipper “farms” the player base, using them as his suppliers as well as his consumers, preying on their unwillingness to wait or that any savings from bidding and selling themselves is “meaningless”, to them. In practice there is no way an individual player can be rewarded as much “new” wealth from doing activities in the game Versus being paid to be a smart middleman in the overall game economy.
If you can earn an exceptional amount of money standing at a corner with a tip jar quoting the classics, why is that looked down on? (Yes that’s a reference to The Man with the Twisted Lip).
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
You can’t stop flippers unless you seriously curtail some aspect of the TP which will impact everyone. Examples.
- Limit number of bids you can have. But this can impact salvagers, forgers and crafters. Likely to cause shortages of buyers on the TP in relation to supply flow which could cause prices to fall to vendor + 1c.
- Account bind bought items. Well you better really want that item, or that number of items then. Implementation problem to denote which items came from the TP and which were gathered/rewarded. Remember NPC vendor add coin to the global economy while the TP only removes some while transferring the rest.
Flipping is a direct result of players willing to leave money “on the table” when selling an item as well as their unwillingness to trade time for acquiring an item at a better price. When multiplied by the thousands of transactions done daily it can amount to a fair chunk of change.
A flipper “farms” the player base, using them as his suppliers as well as his consumers, preying on their unwillingness to wait or that any savings from bidding and selling themselves is “meaningless”, to them. In practice there is no way an individual player can be rewarded as much “new” wealth from doing activities in the game Versus being paid to be a smart middleman in the overall game economy.
If you can earn an exceptional amount of money standing at a corner with a tip jar quoting the classics, why is that looked down on? (Yes that’s a reference to The Man with the Twisted Lip).
you dont really need to nerf flipping directly
you can increase the amount of information of use for people selling and buying, and you can also increase the amount of items of value players can get directly
information would lower the amount of money left on the floor, and increasing the amount of value you can obtain through other means of play will make people less focused on value gained through TP play, when they can gain value in other ways.
you can also introduce other means of wealth transference, tied to tasks, competitive bonuses, job orders, tournaments, knowledge, community created events, etc.
I think the effect of more information would simply to arm the more savvy marketeers and enable them to make even more gold. True that it would likely drive prices of materials in certain directions faster but for the average guy, they are not more likely to be able to gain wealth any easier on the TP with more info than is already available.
I think the effect of more information would simply to arm the more savvy marketeers and enable them to make even more gold. True that it would likely drive prices of materials in certain directions faster but for the average guy, they are not more likely to be able to gain wealth any easier on the TP with more info than is already available.
the TP savy people are already doing that stuff.
Things like, how long an item will take to sell at a current price, a rating of if the value asked is low or high based on the lows and highs throughout the day.
the reason people mostly dont bother is because they have no idea how long it takes, what the general value is etc.
For crafted items i would put the gw2spidy like info that shows if it costs more to make or buy, perhaps that info should only be available if you have unlocked that recipe.
Now it wouldnt eliminate people from selling cheap if thats what they want, but i think it would reduce uninformed selling/buying behavior.
Essentially they would make the choice with information, instead of figuring, i dont know what the value is so i may as well just go with whatever.
I think the effect of more information would simply to arm the more savvy marketeers and enable them to make even more gold. True that it would likely drive prices of materials in certain directions faster but for the average guy, they are not more likely to be able to gain wealth any easier on the TP with more info than is already available.
the TP savy people are already doing that stuff.
Yes, and they are going to do it BETTER with more info while the noobs with no clue will be drowning in info they have no clue what to do with … because they already AREN’T using the currently available information. Let’s be really honest here .. there is ALREADY enough information available for people to play the market, it’s simply not in the game. Still, nothing prevents people from finding that information unless they don’t know about ‘the google’.
By all means, I support more ingame info but let’s not pretend it’s going to equalize earning between knowledgeable TP barons and noobs. It’s simply going to make those market savvy players more enabled. There will definitely be more information if people want to use it but people that have ‘bad’ buy/sell behaviour won’t be a benefited as I think we would like to see.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
The theory that demand drives the price and economy is fine can be applied to any mmorpg ever existed.
Doesn t prove economy is healthy anyway, nor that flipping is a good thing.
Doesnt prove that the economy is unhealthy or that flipping is a bad thing either.
We have huge load of empyrical data for that.
Stuff doubling in price in few days….
People with hundreds thousands gold and invsting most of their assets in gems+rare items pushing prices out of normal players.
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
The theory that demand drives the price and economy is fine can be applied to any mmorpg ever existed.
Doesn t prove economy is healthy anyway, nor that flipping is a good thing.
Doesnt prove that the economy is unhealthy or that flipping is a bad thing either.
We have huge load of empyrical data for that.
Stuff doubling in price in few days….
People with hundreds thousands gold and invsting most of their assets in gems+rare items pushing prices out of normal players.
Normal players only deserve normal stuff.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
The % of your buy orders filled depends on how often you update your highest bid. And maintaing bids gets quite time intensive once you go past 100 items.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
The % of your buy orders filled depends on how often you update your highest bid. And maintaing bids gets quite time intensive once you go past 100 items.
I think we all can agree on the claim that you make more money through tp flipping than anybody would be able through farming mats for the same amount of time.
Furthermore, yes, you have to order the items but once you’ve done that you can do whatever you like, while someone who’s farming can’t just do something else.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
The % of your buy orders filled depends on how often you update your highest bid. And maintaing bids gets quite time intensive once you go past 100 items.
I think we all can agree on the claim that you make more money through tp flipping than anybody would be able through farming mats for the same amount of time.
Furthermore, yes, you have to order the items but once you’ve done that you can do whatever you like, while someone who’s farming can’t just do something else.
I just dont think that you can compare those 2 in the first place because trading and farming are 2 completely different reward mechanics.
With farming you know what to expect because most rewards are predetermined (rng aside) and they get generated out of thin air. Profits on the tp are not predetermined and depend on other peoples choices while not generating rewards, just redistributing them.
Thats why you cant balance those 2 mechanics.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
The % of your buy orders filled depends on how often you update your highest bid. And maintaining bids gets quite time intensive once you go past 100 items.
Furthermore, yes, you have to order the items but once you’ve done that you can do whatever you like, while someone who’s farming can’t just do something else.
You completely ignored what wanze said.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
The % of your buy orders filled depends on how often you update your highest bid. And maintaining bids gets quite time intensive once you go past 100 items.
Furthermore, yes, you have to order the items but once you’ve done that you can do whatever you like, while someone who’s farming can’t just do something else.
You completely ignored what wanze said.
Lets say he refreshes his biddings every hour and he needs 30 mins to do so, which is both exaggerated. Then he would still have half an hour to do other stuff. And at the end of the day he would still come out ahead compared to the one who was farming all the time.
but this thread is not really about inflation? Did he even mention inflation?
Mat prices, crafting, new players – part of OP’s issues.
Inflation and economics, it’s all connected, who would’ve guessed?!Otherwise the argument to the concepts of good/bad is a worse topic with no end.
connected is not the same thing.
Essentially his premise is that it is hard for players to be competitive in terms of achieving goals without playing the TP, because its gains are way above other methods of play for a similar time frame.Inflation is about prices generally going up, if it was caused by inflation, a new or regular player wouldnt have that much issues, because the value of everything would be going up similarly.
inflation most directly effects savings, not earnings versus what you can do with them.
We all know not all jobs pay the same. Why is there a need to be competitive (rate of income between jobs) when all the needs are easily obtained (BiS gear)?
You know, what I’ve never seen? someone defining (or just trying) what a good/bad economy (macro/micro aims) then basing their arguments off that.
BiS gear( how easy it is, is subjective) takes considerably more time for someone to do who doesnt play the TP than someone who does.
first you have to level from 1-500 in crafting, and then you have to buy various materials or hunt them, hunting them actually takes way longer. What may would take me, back when i was playing the TP 4-6 hours? over the course of 1-2 days takes a non tp players 10-16 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks? (and this is after getting to 500 in crafting)Both, traders and farmers, are capped in their acquisition pace of BiS gear, though, at the same cap, which is Laurels.
But their input is different. Farmers invest time to get gold. Traders invest gold to get gold. That’s the problem. There is no cap of gold a trader can use. There is indeed a cap of time a farmer can use. The main input of traiders shouldn’t be gold but another currency which can’t be influenced by gold. Your white karma idea was a good one because white karma would be capped by time invested, not by gold invested, which would cap the revenue which can be made from the traiding post.
Trading also takes alot of time, contrary to common believe. Their gold is also capped as well as their amount of buy orders that can will be filled.
Anyways, this has gone off topic for some time now, best to let this thread die.
Ofcourse it takes time. But time is not the limiting factor as a flipper, gold is. You can make more gold by using more gold and/or more time. A farmer can just spend more time. The amount of gold that can be made through flipping is capped by velocity. Yet noone hinders you from investing in different items to bypass the issue with the velocity of certain items.
The % of your buy orders filled depends on how often you update your highest bid. And maintaining bids gets quite time intensive once you go past 100 items.
Furthermore, yes, you have to order the items but once you’ve done that you can do whatever you like, while someone who’s farming can’t just do something else.
You completely ignored what wanze said.
Lets say he refreshes his biddings every hour and he needs 30 mins to do so, which is both exaggerated. Then he would still have half an hour to do other stuff. And at the end of the day he would still come out ahead compared to the one who was farming all the time.
Now you are making up numbers for him. That is a recurring theme in your posts.
Now you are making up numbers for him. That is a recurring theme in your posts.
You know, there is a subtle line between being effective and being picky. Refreshing ones biddings every hour is effective. Refreshing ones biddings way faster is not.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
Now you are making up numbers for him. That is a recurring theme in your posts.
You know, there is a subtle line between being effective and being picky. Refreshing ones biddings every hour is effective. Refrieshing ones biddings way faster is not.
Refresh frequency depends on the market. I myself only play in markets where I know I do not ever have to refresh. It limits my profits, to be sure, but I prefer to place an offer and forget about it.
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The theory that demand drives the price and economy is fine can be applied to any mmorpg ever existed.
Doesn t prove economy is healthy anyway, nor that flipping is a good thing.
Doesnt prove that the economy is unhealthy or that flipping is a bad thing either.
We have huge load of empyrical data for that.
Stuff doubling in price in few days….
People with hundreds thousands gold and invsting most of their assets in gems+rare items pushing prices out of normal players.
And apparently unending and consistent doubling is a “thing”… I love how these hypotheticals always stop there and don’t continue forward along the timeline to a point where the market dries up and the price re-equalizes.
Now you are making up numbers for him. That is a recurring theme in your posts.
refreshing bids is a means of maximizing profits, but even if you dont, as long as your bid is within the 1 day buy sell possibilities, you will make money.
constantly refreshing and turning over more often is the difference between make 5% profit per day, and making 40% profit per day.
but if you are starting out with 1k gold, even the 5% will make you 50 gold in a day. If you are gangsta and flip at high velocity you can make 400.
so really, its not that you are doing no work, but the point is even on the low end, with low velocity lazy profits, once you have enough invested, you can make more money than someone else with even less work.
In fact, if your goal is not so much to get a higher return on investment, and more to get a higher profit per time spent in the TP, the richer you are the better.
i mean break down the math, if an item has a 15% profit margin on buy to sell within one days time, and you try to get in and out at 10% (these are not crazy numbers, and are not impossible to find)
lets say the items buy order is 1 silver, making a 250 buy order and making a 250 sell order takes about, 40 seconds? if you are slow?
thats 40 seconds of actual work that will yield 25 silver in 40 seconds. that beats any farm i know of in terms of work-profit ratio, with virtually no risk. (before buy order is filled, you have zero risk, after you post sell, your risk is only 5% of total costs, and but going in at 10% when the spread is 15%, you almost ensure that risk will never be realized)
Or,
Now you could say hmmm thats too much work, let me pick one item, that takes less time to post because its a single item, lets say its now 25 seconds of TP work to buy and sell it. and get 45 silver for 25 seconds of work
how about you go back to the 250 stacks, with an item with a 4 silver swing and make 10 gold per stack in 40 seconds.
So yeah. profit per time invested, even if you go with lazy man, i want most money with least effort one flip per item/stack per day, you still get paid way more per time invested than any farm method in the game.
lets say the items buy order is 1 silver, making a 250 buy order and making a 250 sell order takes about, 40 seconds? if you are slow?
thats 40 seconds of actual work that will yield 25 silver in 40 seconds. that beats any farm i know of in terms of work-profit ratio, with virtually no risk. (before buy order is filled, you have zero risk, after you post sell, your risk is only 5% of total costs, and but going in at 10% when the spread is 15%, you almost ensure that risk will never be realized)Or,
Now you could say hmmm thats too much work, let me pick one item, that takes less time to post because its a single item, lets say its now 25 seconds of TP work to buy and sell it. and get 45 silver for 25 seconds of workhow about you go back to the 250 stacks, with an item with a 4 silver swing and make 10 gold per stack in 40 seconds.
So yeah. profit per time invested, even if you go with lazy man, i want most money with least effort one flip per item/stack per day, you still get paid way more per time invested than any farm method in the game.
The problem with your example is that its not spammable and consistent. Sure, you might be able to make 50s within 40sec of work but that doesnt mean that you can do that every 40 seconds, 90 times in an hour.
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lets say the items buy order is 1 silver, making a 250 buy order and making a 250 sell order takes about, 40 seconds? if you are slow?
thats 40 seconds of actual work that will yield 25 silver in 40 seconds. that beats any farm i know of in terms of work-profit ratio, with virtually no risk. (before buy order is filled, you have zero risk, after you post sell, your risk is only 5% of total costs, and but going in at 10% when the spread is 15%, you almost ensure that risk will never be realized)Or,
Now you could say hmmm thats too much work, let me pick one item, that takes less time to post because its a single item, lets say its now 25 seconds of TP work to buy and sell it. and get 45 silver for 25 seconds of workhow about you go back to the 250 stacks, with an item with a 4 silver swing and make 10 gold per stack in 40 seconds.
So yeah. profit per time invested, even if you go with lazy man, i want most money with least effort one flip per item/stack per day, you still get paid way more per time invested than any farm method in the game.
The problem with your example is that its not spammable and consistent. Sure, you might be able to make 50s within 40sec of work but that doesnt mean that you can do that every 40 seconds, 90 times in an hour.
the point is that if one wants to say that trading is capped by actual time the merchant spends placing buy/sell orders, then we have to look at what that really means, as far as i can see, the cap goes pretty high just with those 3 items, the range was 22 gold an hour to 1140.
essentially i would say the cap due directly to how much time the TP trader spends pressing buttons, is not the thing that limits his earnings in 99% of all cases. It will mostly be decided by the velocity of turn over, and which opportunities he finds.
essentially, no one is hitting the cap on earning on the TP due actual time directly invested listing buy and sell orders.
lets say the items buy order is 1 silver, making a 250 buy order and making a 250 sell order takes about, 40 seconds? if you are slow?
thats 40 seconds of actual work that will yield 25 silver in 40 seconds. that beats any farm i know of in terms of work-profit ratio, with virtually no risk. (before buy order is filled, you have zero risk, after you post sell, your risk is only 5% of total costs, and but going in at 10% when the spread is 15%, you almost ensure that risk will never be realized)Or,
Now you could say hmmm thats too much work, let me pick one item, that takes less time to post because its a single item, lets say its now 25 seconds of TP work to buy and sell it. and get 45 silver for 25 seconds of workhow about you go back to the 250 stacks, with an item with a 4 silver swing and make 10 gold per stack in 40 seconds.
So yeah. profit per time invested, even if you go with lazy man, i want most money with least effort one flip per item/stack per day, you still get paid way more per time invested than any farm method in the game.
The problem with your example is that its not spammable and consistent. Sure, you might be able to make 50s within 40sec of work but that doesnt mean that you can do that every 40 seconds, 90 times in an hour.
Lol you realize all these word problems he throws out there are simply to deflect and troll. I stopped reading his post when he made up a bunch of new made up numbers.
lets say the items buy order is 1 silver, making a 250 buy order and making a 250 sell order takes about, 40 seconds? if you are slow?
thats 40 seconds of actual work that will yield 25 silver in 40 seconds. that beats any farm i know of in terms of work-profit ratio, with virtually no risk. (before buy order is filled, you have zero risk, after you post sell, your risk is only 5% of total costs, and but going in at 10% when the spread is 15%, you almost ensure that risk will never be realized)Or,
Now you could say hmmm thats too much work, let me pick one item, that takes less time to post because its a single item, lets say its now 25 seconds of TP work to buy and sell it. and get 45 silver for 25 seconds of workhow about you go back to the 250 stacks, with an item with a 4 silver swing and make 10 gold per stack in 40 seconds.
So yeah. profit per time invested, even if you go with lazy man, i want most money with least effort one flip per item/stack per day, you still get paid way more per time invested than any farm method in the game.
The problem with your example is that its not spammable and consistent. Sure, you might be able to make 50s within 40sec of work but that doesnt mean that you can do that every 40 seconds, 90 times in an hour.
Lol you realize all these word problems he throws out there are simply to deflect and troll. I stopped reading his post when he made up a bunch of new made up numbers.
these numbers werent made up, they were pulled from gw2spidy and reduced(to give the opposing view point the benefit of the doubt). because you dont know at what point in the price range you are when just look at prices in one instance.
Your first mistake is to stop learning based on your on preconcieved notions, the point is to illustrate mathematically what something really is, rather than assume what you think it is going to be.
you make huge errors based on vague incomplete understandings when you say things like
he spends a lot of time setting up things on the TP.
what does a lot mean?
how does a lot compare relative to something else?
not quantifying what alot means, and comparing it to something else that is not quantified, and then making a big statement to the effect that they are roughly the same.
that is not science, or mathematics, or understanding, or useful models/tools.
so what you are saying is, you like to say something, with no numbers, no logic, no true comparison, without showing where you got your information, and some how believe that is more solid, and real than actual mathematics based on numbers that are current and recorded, with illustration of the math/logic/reasoning behind the statements?
but hey, reason isnt for everybody, rock on.
phys you are overestimating how long it takes to fill or sell a stack of orders even on high volume items. Sure you can interleave multiple items so there is always a stack ready to be posted but then you aren’t doing anything else other than camp on the TP. What works when trying to flip one item isn’t necessarily scalable across many.
Also a great many items that have a high volume, aren’t profitable at all flipping. Gathered or farmed materials that have a high supply volume are all losses when you take the 15% fee/tax into account. And those that have a reasonable spread are crafted mats which cost more to make than the cost of raw materials so it’s more profitable if you gathered the raw mats yourself to sell them rather than craft and sell the finish good. If nobody is selling, flippers don’t have a supply of them that they can get stacks of “quickly” to turn around.
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phys you are overestimating how long it takes to fill or sell a stack of orders even on high volume items. Sure you can interleave multiple items so there is always a stack ready to be posted but then you aren’t doing anything else other than camp on the TP. What works when trying to flip one item isn’t necessarily scalable across many.
Also a great many items that have a high volume, aren’t profitable at all flipping. Gathered or farmed materials that have a high supply volume are all losses when you take the 15% fee/tax into account. And those that have a reasonable spread are crafted mats which cost more to make than the cost of raw materials so it’s more profitable if you gathered the raw mats yourself to sell them rather than craft and sell the finish good. If nobody is selling, flippers don’t have a supply of them that they can get stacks of “quickly” to turn around.
ahh, you are mistaking me, the purpose of that post wasnt to say people really make that type of money, it was to show that the time spent actually inputing data into the TP isnt the cap/limit or main factor for deciding how much you can make.
As the other poster said, the main limit on profits is velocity of sales, available capital, and the amount of market ineffeciency.
Point being you can make a lot of money with simple buy/sell orders without having to update them more than once a day. Sure, you can make more money by actively playing the market, adapting to whats going on in that instant, etc. but thats the difference from making 5% a day and making 50% a day.
notice, if you have 1000 gold making 5% a day in 20 minutes(of actual work inputting buy/sell orders), thats way more than any one else can make in 20 minutes of actual work. (and more than most players make in a day)