Guild Wars 2

First off I want to say that this is not supposed to be a criticism or attack against anyone, rather a question I’d like to discuss.

Basically: Does the BLTP, as it is, fit in the social design of Guild Wars 2?

I’ve come to think about this when Mr. John Smith mentioned in another topic, that there are measurements in economics for how much a child is being loved by its parents. Sad but true.
No new fact for me, but hearing it here has made me think.
Is it really a good idea to bring economics like this into a game like Guild Wars 2?

Before we go into this, let me tell you that I indirectly work with such data too.
I’m an engineer. Product Life Cycle Management, the science that gives a product a life…along with a lifespan that’s often based on how long it takes the average person to save up enough money to buy another one.
Things like the melting capacitors in two year old flatscreen TV’s, the fact that some cars tend to break beyond cost-efficient repair just around of the last installment to pay, the bearings of your average power drill being designed to last for two hours of work…I could go on forever. Basically none of it is a design-flaw or -accident.
It’s science to get your money.

So back to the TP. A stable market, a working system, running smooth.
People with a knack for economics ckittene the same methods and research they use for real life trading to make a wealth.
I’ve delved a bit into it with the little stuff I’ve had to learn as an engineer specialized for development and construction and could gather some profits by looking at the market I had my own interests in: Cloth for ascended crafting.
I followed a few discussions here to get some data and maybe catch a hint or two.
I’ve read terms like “curves of what people are willing to pay” and statements like “If you change the recipe, people will still be willing to pay that much for damask.”.

To be honest, I was shocked. In a game that rewards for reviving, where people are actually happy for more players joining in for a fight against a loot-heavy boss, people used economic terms which basically mean “How much money can we pull from the pockets of our fellow players before they stop giving it to us?”.
In a topic to question if 1c mass-buy-orders are against ToS, players got edgy.
On the other hand: When someone here wanted some tips on how to get some profits from the TP, knowledge was shared in a friendly manner, just like everywhere else on the forums.

Some of the most helpful “TP-players” here mentioned that they feel other players to be jealous for their wealth. That they get envyed just because they can make that much money in a relatively short time, just by buying and selling.
To be honest, I’m beginning to doubt that it’s jealousy because of “being rich”.
I’ve never seen that many people complain about the people who farmed dungeons all day, back when dungeon-farming was repitive and people amassed money by spending their time in CoF p1.
However, in my relatively short time on the TP I’ve seen other things, for example cheap sell listings being bought up, just for the same amount of items to appear in more expensive selling orders, as long as this process was earning profits after the 15% taxes of the TP. In masses and time-frames that made me think that very few players with a lot of gold are holding up a monopoly.
Of course, that works and the market itself remains somewhat stable.

Yet…is it socially fitting for a game like this?

The TP, on one hand, is the direct result of a RNG reward system. Since there isn’t specific content that drops a specific set of items, you either have to be lucky or have to buy it from someone who doesn’t want it. Assuming of course it can’t be crafted by yourself.

By pushing players to the TP to satisfy their item needs, it also turns the TP into a prime gold sink since so much of the stuff dropped on you is unwanted. Who wants Level 80 fine armor to equip, ever? No, it’s salvage or forge material.

So the RNG aspect of the reward system turns the TP into something other than a crafting supply or crafted goods market into something every player has to use, especially if they want more than the token sale price from an NPC vendor.

tekfan.3179:

I’ve come to think about this when Mr. John Smith mentioned in another topic, that there are measurements in economics for how much a child is being loved by its parents. Sad but true.

I think this is wrong. It isnt about the “amount” of love, it is about behaviour patterns, statistics and years of research in human psykology.
There is no way to predict with 100% certainty how a single human reacts to whatever, though it is much easier/closer with crowds.

I think alot of the economical/tp discussions overlook one important point. An economy isnt a stand-alone thing, it is a tool. And as every tool it has a purpose. And in gw2 its Anet that decides what purpose the ingame economy has.
There are often posts that compare economies, with other games, with countries and so on, and though some basics are the same you cant really compare a economy based on cathing fish with an economy based on selling cars. Add in different political goals and whats right in the first can be very wrong in the other.

I dont think the tp “fits” with the game, but any other way would make it less accessible and/or timeconsuming.
I think it is a flaw that the tp can give higher rewards than running around playing the game, but Anet obviuosly think its ok, so there.
After all, we are not here to play a game, we are here to generate money.

I’m wrapping up my Econ Undergrad (Dual Program Econ/Environmental Econ) and grad school bound.

First off: your position is fascinating in a horrible way, especially given my field (the Environmental side). I’d actually love to hear more. Do you have any good links regarding it in industry? Common position titles?

Second: Economics is just a naturally occuring social phenomenon. We just try to figure out they way the dynamics play out and push and pulls elements here and there to get more desirable results (well, maybe not Austrians school advocates . ). No matter the system, someone is going to find a way to “hack it”. Whether Anet should be actively trying to prevent this is debatable. One one hand, I don’t feel it’s good for the game; but Anet and John Smith could pretty easily correct things on the supply side, but choose not to. Just nuking a few high profit markets (precursors, etc. .) occasionally here and there to create more risk would deter a lot of it – but they don’t. Anet has data we don’t – TP flipping might be less common than we think, or there might be too many “non flipper” players in the market and it would hurt them, creating a big backlash. On the other hand, while IRL I’m not at all a “let the market” decide type – it is just a game.

The poster above me raises good points too. The RNG system really is responsible. It would be nice if they tied items more to specific mobs/types/regions. The TP feels too central to the game for my liking as well. The Market dominates my real life (and everyone else as well) it would be nice if it didn’t hobbies as well :/

tekfan.3179:

1. Basically: Does the BLTP, as it is, fit in the social design of Guild Wars 2?
I think it fits absolutely in. I usually dont like comparisons between the game and real life but have to resort to some of them during this post. Anets tried to make an ónline world and just like in the real world, trading and commerce is a big part of everyday life.
2. Is it really a good idea to bring economics like this into a game like Guild Wars 2?
Why not? To a great extend, kids these days learn and adapt alot of social behaviour (good and bad) through online interaction. Some kids might learn math faster by min/maxing their stats than in school. So why not have a “real” economic system that enables them to learn basic economy lessons in a playful manner and also give them the possibility to delve deeper into it (by following more academic discussions on the forums or doing their own research), if they wish to?

3. So back to the TP. A stable market, a working system, running smooth.
People with a knack for economics ckittene the same methods and research they use for real life trading to make a wealth.
I think i already answered this under 2.
4. How much money can we pull from the pockets of our fellow players before they stop giving it to us?".
I think you are blaming the wrong people (traders). The question should be: How long do people accept less value for their loot until they change their trading pattern? You cant really change the fact that people make lots of profit trading until those that accept less value for their loot, change their behaviour. TP profits are a reaction of people selling and buying directly.
5. In a topic to question if 1c mass-buy-orders are against ToS, players got edgy.
I think people in that topic only got edgy because this topic has been discussed at length and in essence has very little impact on the economy, so they dont understand why some people take so much offense in the fact that people can “manipulate” the most demanded item list.

tekfan.3179:

6. On the other hand: When someone here wanted some tips on how to get some profits from the TP, knowledge was shared in a friendly manner, just like everywhere else on the forums.
Personally, playing the TP is one of my favourite activities in GW2, first because i made good profits but these days i dont really need any more wealth than i already have, so i mostly play it for fun. So i like to share my experience and try to encourage people in doing the same because i think it might lead a better overall game experience for them. If there are honest or good questions, I think they deserve an honest and good answer. But if people just post to qq and are not receptive to answers that might change their opinion on matters, they wont get good feedback.
7. Some of the most helpful “TP-players” here mentioned that they feel other players to be jealous for their wealth. That they get envyed just because they can make that much money in a relatively short time, just by buying and selling.
I think you read at least some my my “karma tax topic”. From me, it was an honest attempt to use my knowledge and experience on the tp to try to find a solution that would “nerf” my profits on the TP without impacting trading in general. Some players posted in that topic, accusing me of having malicious intent with my proposal just because I am rich. They assumed my whole purpose was to nerf other players ability to make profits, so my accumulated wealth becomes more valuable. They completely disregarded, if my proposal would change things for the mayority of the playerbase for the better just because there is a posibility that i might become even richer through the change.
8. To be honest, I’m beginning to doubt that it’s jealousy because of “being rich”.
I think its not really jealousy of rich players, its the misconception that huge amounts of profits are made on the tp by single individuals with very little effort. The more profit you want to make, the more tedious is becomes and the more knowledge you have to gain outside of the game (research on 3rd party sides).
9. I’ve never seen that many people complain about the people who farmed dungeons all day, back when dungeon-farming was repitive and people amassed money by spending their time in CoF p1.
Farming CoF1 required pretty much no skill and didnt really involve any risk, so nearly everybody could do it, so why should anybody complain. Making lots of profits on the tp does require skill and risk and it also might seem more boring to some people than running a dungeon over and over. The prerequisitives of making profit on the tp are ever changing, so there are no templates to do it over and over again. If you make profit with 1 item in one week, it might handle you a loss (or not sell) the next week, so you constantly have to change the way you play. People who run trains (eotm, champs, world bosses), can do so with very little effort while watching a movie on the side because its the same all the time, while playing the tp requires you to pay more attention in general.

tekfan.3179:

10. However, in my relatively short time on the TP I’ve seen other things, for example cheap sell listings being bought up, just for the same amount of items to appear in more expensive selling orders, as long as this process was earning profits after the 15% taxes of the TP. In masses and time-frames that made me think that very few players with a lot of gold are holding up a monopoly.
Of course, that works and the market itself remains somewhat stable.
You said it yourself, the sell listings are cheap, so why isnt a trader allowed to buy them up, if they are offered under market value? And why didnt those players, who want to use that item, buy them at that price? Thats hardly manipulation, let alone a monopoly because they have no control over new supply entering the market. They are simply correcting the market and they arent the only ones benefitting from it.
If I buy up all Linen at 5s and relist it at 6s, i make 10c profit per linen i sell at 6s. But the players who listed their linen at 5s profit because their linen has sold, which wsnt the case before. I still have to wait for linen between 5.01s and 5.99s to sell before i access my profits, so its not guaranteed that i even make that profit. If prices adjust to 6s, I get my profit but i also raised profits for every farmer who wants to sell his linen by 20%. IT can only be a true monopoly, if i am the only one profiting from it. And if you think rich traders can in any way manipulate the economy, you are wrong. I would even argue that the richest players in game didnt accumulate their wealth through trading but through hacking accounts/exploiting/botting. And even those dont seem to have a very big impact on the economy as a whole. JS explained once that he was quite surprised, how fast the markets for t6 mats corrected themselves, after Anet banned a huge amount of botters in a relatively short time.

Wanze, I think you misunderstood me at some points.
4.: I blame noone. As I mentioned before, I’m working with the very same things when I construct whatever I’m told in real life.
Then again, I’m all ears if you want to tell me that the statements I mentioned don’t mean exactly what I took them for.

8.-10.: I wasn’t criticizing the trading, I was rather trying to convey what I think is the reason for the flaming against TP-players.
Imagine you are a player who isn’t doing much with the TP except for sometimes selling your loot for a quick buck and buying what you need.
Let’s use your linen-example:
You see the linen for 5s, want to buy it and get the error from the TP that the listing is no longer aviable. You see that the 250 linen you wanted to buy are gone, but at the same time, they reappear for 6s. This could be just another player selling his stock or be one of those tp-flippers you heard about who just made your purchase more expensive for you.
You mentioned yourself that you’d flip linen for 5s into an offer for 6s.
In the end, what’s even hindering another TP-flipper with enough capital to buy your linen for 6s just to relist them for 7.5s?
At the start the linen may have generated 4s plus some copper for the guy who brought it into the tp, in the end it may have gone through multiple instances of being bought, 15% compensation for taxes plus a small margin for profits added and resold.
By human nature, most players will tend to think: “kitten TP-Flipper!!!” Likely, more or less of them won’t even be wrong.

Compare that to dungeon-running. I agree that it didn’t require any skill. In real life we tend to build simple machines or robots for such tedious, repetitive tasks, in a computer-game it becomes popular.
But dungeon-running didn’t impact the average player as much as the flipping on the TP. In fact the dungeons brought more items into the tp, raising supply and therefore in many cases lowering prices.
If you didn’t do the dungeons, fine, you didn’t earn the money. The TP in GW2 can’t be avoided that easily and if you don’t like to delve into the economics, you lose, instead of losing nothing.
Let’s stay at linen: What would you do? Running around on Timberline Falls the whole day, farming bags and hoping for light armor drops below your level, or go to the only other source for linen(except from friends who might need it for themselves), the Black Lion Trading post?
For players who don’t like to do dungeons, the dungeon-runners rather generated more items on the TP, for players who don’t like the TP, Flippers are most likely the guys who raise the prices.
Again, my intend here is not to criticize, but to show some alternate perspectives as to why people react the way they do.

MiloSales, I think I’m not entirely sure what you want in your second paragraph. Would you maybe be more precise regarding the information you requested?

tekfan.3179:

But dungeon-running didn’t impact the average player as much as the flipping on the TP. In fact the dungeons brought more items into the tp, raising supply and therefore in many cases lowering prices.

Nope. The dungeon running was a huge cause of inflation. All that “new gold” in the economy that appeared from nowhere(dungeon rewards) is what causes inflation. (Re:federal reserve and printing money) This affects the common player more than tp flippers.

Yea, basically the general philosophy of a bltc player, going by this sub forum, is about using the market to get as much as they can from everyone else. It is seen as a given that the bltc is pvp, and those that dont know how to play should be exploited for the benefit of those that do.

another philosophy that you see commonly, that essentially that the people exist to serve the economy, not vice versa, many things are in place for the benefit of economic whole, at the cost of the economic individual, and this is rightfully so.
you see it with many justifications on a macro level, that on a mico level, suck. Like creating huge item sinks for in demand items, that have players needing to amass something like 7200 of an item, or 10000 of another item. Or designs that make the TP the primary method of obtaining anything, for the purpose of a gold sink, etc. Essentially the players purpose is just to grease the economic machines, with little concern to how such changes interact with the individual.

Its a very different philosophy than other parts of the game. But how they really think about the situation, it makes sense the economy is designed that way, because thats what they believe in, acceptable losses, simulations, each person really is just a point of data in a model, so why would they be overlly concerned about how the individual feels? At the end of the day the fact that peoples behavior patterns are a certain way means they are happy right? They still consume?

Early on(first few months), some friends and i were discussing the economy/tp, and how it feels unsatisfying, unrewarding etc. And being the one who had most interacted with the TP, and analyzed it, I was like, its really well designed from a technical standpoint, but it is not a good experience interacting with it.

@tekfan

You seem to have the opinion that low prices are generally good for everybody.
But what about those who want to gather stuff and sell it or sell their loot? They profit from higher prices. People complain that precursors are 3 times more expensive than a year ago but then again, so are t5 fine mats, which are a common drop for players at endgame. Nobody seems to have a problem when the loot that drops for them rises in price but they complain about when stuff they want to buy does the same.

phys.7689:

Yea, basically the general philosophy of a bltc player, going by this sub forum, is about using the market to get as much as they can from everyone else. It is seen as a given that the bltc is pvp, and those that dont know how to play should be exploited for the benefit of those that do.

This is your personal opinion on this subject from your perspective of what drives other players. The bltc is a player driven free market with a 15% tax. Nothing more, nothing less. The “TP barons” simply use publicly available 3rd party tools and information to make good decisions. No exploitation necessary, Or more to the point noone is exploiting anyone not letting themselves be exploited. People want the fast gold for mats or they crafted a ton of things to level and want to quickly recoup their cost. Without people choosing to sell to buy order then there is no market for TP flipping or any of the other nefarious activities these ultra wealthy players participate in.

I mean after 2 years of the TP being the same dont you think people would have realized by now they can make more gold by listing an item to sell then selling it directly to purchase order? When I click sell item, it comes up with 2 easy to read prices. Its just as easy to click the higher of them…

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

Yea, basically the general philosophy of a bltc player, going by this sub forum, is about using the market to get as much as they can from everyone else. It is seen as a given that the bltc is pvp, and those that dont know how to play should be exploited for the benefit of those that do.

This is your personal opinion on this subject from your perspective of what drives other players. The bltc is a player driven free market with a 15% tax. Nothing more, nothing less. The “TP barons” simply use publicly available 3rd party tools and information to make good decisions. No exploitation necessary, Or more to the point noone is exploiting anyone not letting themselves be exploited. People want the fast gold for mats or they crafted a ton of things to level and want to quickly recoup their cost. Without people choosing to sell to buy order then there is no market for TP flipping or any of the other nefarious activities these ultra wealthy players participate in.

I mean after 2 years of the TP being the same dont you think people would have realized by now they can make more gold by listing an item to sell then selling it directly to purchase order? When I click sell item, it comes up with 2 easy to read prices. Its just as easy to click the higher of them…

What you say illustrates my point.
As i said you believe its essentially a dog eat dog world, if you allow someone to profit while you suffer, its your own fault.
“Or more to the point noone is exploiting anyone not letting themselves be exploited.”

now im just saying its a different philosophy than the rest of the game, who can say who is right and who is wrong, going by the sub forum in general, i would guess many vocal people take a social dawarnism stance here.

its an accurate description of the general philosophy that many people here promote, and probably believe in, from what you just said, its not too far from how you see things.

Now, im not making the value judgement on it, im just stating that the observations, opinions, and ideas presented here, are consistent with a social darwinism philosophy, or with a belief in the overall economy being more important than how the individual reacts with it.

sorry but… you are not an engineer. youre the person who tells the engineer to build things just badly enough to get people to buy more. it requires enough technical knowledge to talk to an engineer, but you arent the one designing parts in autocad or building bad capacitors.

yeesh… i feel dirty just thinking about your job =( hooray capitalism!

insanemaniac.2456:

sorry but… you are not an engineer. youre the person who tells the engineer to build things just badly enough to get people to buy more. it requires enough technical knowledge to talk to an engineer, but you arent the one designing parts in autocad or building bad capacitors.

yeesh… i feel dirty just thinking about your job =( hooray capitalism!

Actually I’m the guy being told to build things just badly enough. Sitting in front of a monitor and using CAD-Software.
And nope: I’m not using Autocad, I’m more fluent in CATIA V5, probably because I made my bachelor in a city with a huge airbus manufacturing plant and they use it extensively. Some years ago I used Solid Edge for a bit, but I never really used it professionally.
Product Lifecycle Management is not just dealing with the lifetime of a product, but also with its assembly and it’s disposal after it is being put out of service.
In so far, it also deals a bit with ecological regulations, but sadly it’s mostly tailored for an engineer to build a machine in regards to optimal profits from the manufacturing to its disposal. Since 70% of a products costs are already determined by R&D, PLM is important even in these early stages.
And I agree completely: Dealing with this stuff you often feel dirty.
I’m getting sick, just thinking about it again…
One of the reasons why I chose Development and Construction, so I don’t have to deal with this dirty stuff as much as the students in Production Management.

But back to topic:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

…

…

What you say illustrates my point.
As i said you believe its essentially a dog eat dog world, if you allow someone to profit while you suffer, its your own fault.
“Or more to the point noone is exploiting anyone not letting themselves be exploited.”

now im just saying its a different philosophy than the rest of the game, who can say who is right and who is wrong, going by the sub forum in general, i would guess many vocal people take a social dawarnism stance here.

its an accurate description of the general philosophy that many people here promote, and probably believe in, from what you just said, its not too far from how you see things.

Now, im not making the value judgement on it, im just stating that the observations, opinions, and ideas presented here, are consistent with a social darwinism philosophy, or with a belief in the overall economy being more important than how the individual reacts with it.

That’s exactly my point, phys.
My intent is not to judge, but I got the same impression regarding this different philosophies.

On the one hand we got a game that rewards you for reviving other players, often it’s even a daily achievement.
The loot-system rewards anyone who participated in the DPS, kill-stealing is impossible by game-mechanics and players are actually happy for more people attacking the mob they already attack.
Combos of fields and finishers generate boons for every player, basically the whole server is your party, not just the four people at the side of your screen.

On the other hand we got this darwinistic philosophy, perfectly illustrated with the statement “Or more to the point noone is exploiting anyone not letting themselves be exploited.”.
While in PvP and PvE the game is designed in a way that players actually stop what they are doing to help a fellow player, on the TP it doesn’t seem to matter.
Don’t get me wrong, I received help here in regards to trading as I was in other forums in regards to gameplay or story-discussions, but the trading itself…
That’s a totally different story.
While people in this forum are showing the same traits of common interest and helping fellow players in regard to the topic, the topic itself is filled with statements like “Or more to the point noone is exploiting anyone not letting themselves be exploited.”, “curves of what people are willing to pay” and “they will still be willing to pay as much for damask, even if you change the recipe”.

Let’s shine a different light on it:
Imagine someone opens a topic to help players with doing their dailies as fast as they can, being helpful and sharing a lot of information.
For the daily reviver he suggests that you take a character of level 40 or higher, go into a starting area and pull mobs over low level players to rez them afterwards.
With the new mega-servers there are always some lowbies aviable, while the spots where you can farm NPC’s for rezzing are often overfarmed.
After all, if the low level players wouldn’t agree to that, they could just respawn at the next waypoint after they drop dead. In fact, this would even help them, since they learn how to deal with multiple enemies or how to dodge attacks.

Wanze.8410:

@tekfan

You seem to have the opinion that low prices are generally good for everybody.
But what about those who want to gather stuff and sell it or sell their loot? They profit from higher prices. People complain that precursors are 3 times more expensive than a year ago but then again, so are t5 fine mats, which are a common drop for players at endgame. Nobody seems to have a problem when the loot that drops for them rises in price but they complain about when stuff they want to buy does the same.

I don’t know if you can really use that example for prices, since both are closely related. You mentioned in another post yourself that mithril is being used for precursor-crafting in the MF, thus it being a sink for it.
Those rares need inscriptions too.

In regards to the prices, no, I’m not generally advocating for low prices.
You keep mentioning that the higher prices are good for people who sell their loot. I know, remember that I engage in a bit of silk-trading?
That being mentioned, I think I made myself clear on the imbalance I see in the prices of cloth, ore, wood and leather, but that are other topics and it’s really not my intent to repeat it here.
My intent merely was to show how the price-dynamics of TP-trading may affect the general consumer, thus possibly generating a antipathy, probably more impactful in the perception of tp-players than the idea of envy because of financial diversion.

phys.7689:

Yea, basically the general philosophy of a bltc player, going by this sub forum, is about using the market to get as much as they can from everyone else. It is seen as a given that the bltc is pvp, and those that dont know how to play should be exploited for the benefit of those that do.

Yeah because we’re the ones that exploit players who choose to sell their goods at buy prices rather than sell prices. We’re also the ones that exploit players who choose to buy at sell prices rather than buy prices. Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds?

I look at the TP as “Will I be paid more for my unwanted goods than an NPC vendor?” and “Can I get items I want from the TP that you can’t get from an NPC vendor?” Yes to both questions? Then it’s working fine.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Yea, basically the general philosophy of a bltc player, going by this sub forum, is about using the market to get as much as they can from everyone else. It is seen as a given that the bltc is pvp, and those that dont know how to play should be exploited for the benefit of those that do.

Yeah because we’re the ones that exploit players who choose to sell their goods at buy prices rather than sell prices. We’re also the ones that exploit players who choose to buy at sell prices rather than buy prices. Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds?

yeah, thats exploiting them, taking full advantage of their careless behavior that doesnt accurately represent the value of what they are selling or buying

Most often, the word exploitation is used to refer to economic exploitation; that is, the act of using another person as a means to one’s profit, particularly using their labor without offering or providing them fair retribution.

are you using them to profit? yes, are you using their labor while giving them less than you believe the items value is? yes.

I dont really think you have any problem with exploitation, you just dont like how the word makes you feel.
you can take out the word exploit, and instead put, “take full advantage of” if you want.

heres the question dont you believe that its players own faults if they arent making full use of the economy? dont you think its ok for you to profit from them not being able to do so? Dont you feel that people who are good at the tp, should prosper, and people arent, should just learn to deal with the cards they have been dealt? Its not your problem, buyer beware, if they dont like it then they should become stronger. If they cant, its their own fault and they deserve what they get.

etc.

thats basically social darwinism, and its very popular, and many people believe its the way it should be, its also a philosophy that is not consistent with the game philosophies in other modes.

no

Thank heaven I took two extra strength Tylenol before coming here …

It’s not Social Darwinism. It’s the collective action of individual players in a system that strives to be economically efficient.

We have players who want either money for items they have and don’t want or items the want and are willing to exchange for money ASAP. They are willing, for whatever reason, not to maximize their income from selling or savings from buying if that means they will have to wait on the transaction. This creates an inefficiency in the market. Items are being sold for much less than others are willing to pay for them. That inefficiency creates a new market for those willing act as broker to close that gap. It creates the merchant, the warehouse, the distributor, the entity that gathers the undervalued items and provide a steady supply to a market that was already willing to pay more for those items.

Nobody is forcing players to sell at the high bid or buy from the low sell. Those who are filling this new market can’t lower the high bid or raise the low sell since there are other entities in the market to counter those movements. But the “popular” opinion is that these players are exploiting their fellow players by taking the money that the original sellers were willing to pass up on is a sad statement of how people have an unrealistic expectation on how things work. If those who are selling, unbeknownst to them to those exploitative flippers, are asked how do they like to be exploited, most likely they don’t feel they’ve been exploited at all. Same is true with the buyers because the option is always there to sell for more or buy for less and those doing the selling and buying chose, for whatever reason, not too.

The real problem some people are having is simple jealousy over the amount of money that a player could earn if they devout the time necessary to spot the inefficient item markets, they are always changing, and take advantage of them. It’s not buy A at X and sell for Y every day. Most common items with high trading volume can’t be flipped as their gap is to narrow and the priced fluctuates to little to create a profit opportunity. Finding a profitable niche that you ckittene indefinitely doesn’t exist.

Yes, trading via markets is consistent with a social MMO like this one.

No, players are not (profitably) monopolizing markets for items that continue to drop in game. It is possible that the markets for items with a small, static supply are monopolized, but there are very, very few of those in game.

Perhaps I don’t understand what you are asking.

For someone to be exploited they need to be taken advantage of. No one is taking advantage of people who choose to put items up for sale on the tp at buy now price. That is a choice the individual made. They could post it at buy now price or list it at any other price they choose.

Phys needs to understand the concept of personal responsibility.

phys.7689:

are you using them to profit? yes, are you using their labor while giving them less than they believe the items value is? NO.

I adjusted this quote to be what it should be. If the seller sold an item at buy now price they should be satisfied with the transaction, they had the option of putting in any price they wanted and chose to sell at the lowest one to sell it fast. You have a problem with other players(not the TP barons) using the tp as they wish, which is to get quick gold.

TP flippers do one thing and one thing only, they buy items from people at a price that sellers want to sell at and sell items(hopefully) to people willing to pay the price of their stock who dont want to wait for an order to come in.

Honestly there is a little bit of “survival of the fittest” happening, welcome to the planet earth because that is evident everywhere.

But with a comparably simple system like the bltc has(15% tax, choosing own price), at least it is fair for everyone.

Behellagh.1468:

Thank heaven I took two extra strength Tylenol before coming here …

It’s not Social Darwinism. It’s the collective action of individual players in a system that strives to be economically efficient.

We have players who want either money for items they have and don’t want or items the want and are willing to exchange for money ASAP. They are willing, for whatever reason, not to maximize their income from selling or savings from buying if that means they will have to wait on the transaction. This creates an inefficiency in the market. Items are being sold for much less than others are willing to pay for them. That inefficiency creates a new market for those willing act as broker to close that gap. It creates the merchant, the warehouse, the distributor, the entity that gathers the undervalued items and provide a steady supply to a market that was already willing to pay more for those items.

Nobody is forcing players to sell at the high bid or buy from the low sell. Those who are filling this new market can’t lower the high bid or raise the low sell since there are other entities in the market to counter those movements. But the “popular” opinion is that these players are exploiting their fellow players by taking the money that the original sellers were willing to pass up on is a sad statement of how people have an unrealistic expectation on how things work. If those who are selling, unbeknownst to them to those exploitative flippers, are asked how do they like to be exploited, most likely they don’t feel they’ve been exploited at all. Same is true with the buyers because the option is always there to sell for more or buy for less and those doing the selling and buying chose, for whatever reason, not too.

The real problem some people are having is simple jealousy over the amount of money that a player could earn if they devout the time necessary to spot the inefficient item markets, they are always changing, and take advantage of them. It’s not buy A at X and sell for Y every day. Most common items with high trading volume can’t be flipped as their gap is to narrow and the priced fluctuates to little to create a profit opportunity. Finding a profitable niche that you ckittene indefinitely doesn’t exist.

exploitation very rarely forces anyone to do anything, maybe you are thinking of extortion.

Many people who are exploited have no idea they are being exploited, that usually makes it easier.

How long you can exploit people, or how hard/tricky it is to exploit them is irrelveant to the exploitation.

exploitation may sound like a bad word to you, but it basically means you are profiting by giving people less value than they should be getting. That basically is the main premise of TP flipping. Whether its good or bad, or serves a purpose or whatever, it is what is.

Now, the TP isnt really social darwinism, the people who mock/ridicule look down upon the people who they profit from, who say people are foolish, and should for those reasons be exploited, and they need to learn how to play the TP or shut up, And that this is the natural order of things, etc, exhibit behaviors consistent with social darwinism.

Now, i dont know how i feel about that, i do in fact feel that you cant protect people from themselves completely, and i accept that the people who study something and put in specific effort will probably be better at it. On the other side i think that whats best for the overall population, and overall game design may be more important than a realistic competitive economy in a game.

However, something is what it is, One of the prevalent philosophies here is one of a social dawarnism. Its what they call the philosophy many people in this sub forum exhibit. This does not mean this is everyone, but its common here. Many people celebrate social darwinism and believe in it, its not really a bad word, but it is what it is.

Quite honestly I learned so much from the GW2 economy… which could actually be applied to real life

(1) People who work the hardest are not necessary the people who get reward the most (farmers). The people who use their brain(investors, flippers, scammers, crafting multiboxers) are the richest people.

(2) The task that use your brain are actually painfully labor. I suppose I could use the brains like the other people. But I always resort to farming. Probably because using the brain actually is quite a painful thing to do. Everyone could use their brain to make money more efficiently, but many resort to take 9 to 5 jobs.

(3) If you want to invest, start early. Those people who invested the grimming shield are the richest people in GW2 now.

(4) short term flipping could pay off well. But long term investment/speculations (eg. real estate) are usually the sure winners, which almost pays the most.

(5) Never keep money. Invest in other things. Real life banks pays like 1-2% interest. GW2 dont’ even pay interest at all. And if you take inflation into consideration. It is better bet for you to put your money else where.

(6) If you want to get rich “use your brains”! People who work the hardest are not the one rewarding the most!

eithinan.9841:

For someone to be exploited they need to be taken advantage of. No one is taking advantage of people who choose to put items up for sale on the tp at buy now price. That is a choice the individual made. They could post it at buy now price or list it at any other price they choose.

Phys needs to understand the concept of personal responsibility.

phys.7689:

are you using them to profit? yes, are you using their labor while giving them less than they believe the items value is? NO.

I adjusted this quote to be what it should be. If the seller sold an item at buy now price they should be satisfied with the transaction, they had the option of putting in any price they wanted and chose to sell at the lowest one to sell it fast. You have a problem with other players(not the TP barons) using the tp as they wish, which is to get quick gold.

TP flippers do one thing and one thing only, they buy items from people at a price that sellers want to sell at and sell items(hopefully) to people willing to pay the price of their stock who dont want to wait for an order to come in.

Honestly there is a little bit of “survival of the fittest” happening, welcome to the planet earth because that is evident everywhere.

But with a comparably simple system like the bltc has(15% tax, choosing own price), at least it is fair for everyone.

so lets say someone has a gold brick, and they think its just a rock, and you buy it from them for 10 dollars, and they are happy, you would not consider that exploitation?

exploitation has nothing to do with willingness.

How many times have you heard some one say they were taken advantage of, against their will? that is not exploitation, that is extortion/robbery etc.

As for the social darwinism, there doesnt have to be exploitation for people to believe in it. But lets be honest, many people here do believe in it, that the strong should succeed and the weak should fail(socialy/economically/etc). Just know, that while you believe it to be just the way life is, there are actually a great many other philosophies that dont believe in that.

Now the poster is saying essentially the philosophy of many people in this sub forum, is very different from the philosophies designed into other facets of the game. Which i think is fairly accurate.

laokoko.7403:

Quite honestly I learned so much from the GW2 economy… which could actually be applied to real life

(1) People who work the hardest are not necessary the people who get reward the most (farmers). The people who use their brain(investors, flippers, scammers, crafting multiboxers) are the richest people.

(2) The task that use your brain are actually painfully labor. I suppose I could use the brains like the other people. But I always resort to farming. Probably because using the brain actually is quite a painful thing to do. Everyone could use their brain to make money more efficiently, but many resort to take 9 to 5 jobs.

(3) If you want to invest, start early. Those people who invested the grimming shield are the richest people in GW2 now.

(4) short term flipping could pay off well. But long term investment/speculations (eg. real estate) are usually the sure winners, which almost pays the most.

(5) Never keep money. Invest in other things. Real life banks pays like 1-2% interest. GW2 dont’ even pay interest at all. And if you take inflation into consideration. It is better bet for you to put your money else where.

(6) If you want to get rich “use your brains”! People who work the hardest are not the one rewarding the most!

4) short term can pay pretty well, but its a lot more work, both is probably a good look
6) using your brains isnt exactly it, Most smart people dont get paid that well(comparitively), i think its more about ambition/desire

phys.7689:

exploitation may sound like a bad word to you, but it basically means you are profiting by giving people less value than they should be getting. That basically is the main premise of TP flipping. Whether its good or bad, or serves a purpose or whatever, it is what is.

But all a TP flipper is doing is putting up an offer to buy goods at X. It’s up to the seller to accept that or price it at what they think it’s worth. There is no barrier for entering a price the seller thinks is fairer other than the few seconds it takes to type it in. I know because that’s how I sell all of my drops.

Now either they choose ease, just clicking sell, over even selecting to match the current low sell price and clicking sell; which takes much less time and effort than entering their own price and clicking sell. Maybe they are in a hurry. Maybe they don’t see the point of making a few copper/silver more on each sale. Same with the case for buying.

I think I’m starting to understand your position phys, and it’s not because the Tylenol is wearing off. You think that the flipper, knowingly offering to buy at a price below he could sell at is exploiting the players he is buying from. First of all they are selling to him, the choice was theirs, the flipper did not seek them out. Second, without being able to turn a profit, the flipper would not be offering to buy in the first place. That means that only players looking to use the item will be placing bids but we’ve established that many players, for whatever reason, don’t choose to do so and rather buy from the current low seller. So who becomes the “winner” now? Why it’s those players who bother to use the TP in the way it was envisioned, by placing sell orders for the things they don’t want and buy orders for the stuff they do. They will now be the “exploiters” due to their “skill” of using the non-default options on the TP interface.

So is that the problem? Is the fact the TP suggests sell to high bidder and buy from low seller as default? Maybe there shouldn’t be a default if the problem with flippers are the users who are their suppliers and customers. Reinforce the fact that it’s their choice and not the easiest/quickest way to get back to play. But I suspect the uproar created by forcing the choice would either insist that it should be returned to the way it was or have an option to set what the default should be.

And in the end we would have return to an inefficient marketplace where goods are sold for less than they are worth.

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

exploitation may sound like a bad word to you, but it basically means you are profiting by giving people less value than they should be getting. That basically is the main premise of TP flipping. Whether its good or bad, or serves a purpose or whatever, it is what is.

But all a TP flipper is doing is putting up an offer to buy goods at X. It’s up to the seller to accept that or price it at what they think it’s worth. There is no barrier for entering a price the seller thinks is fairer other than the few seconds it takes to type it in. I know because that’s how I sell all of my drops.

Now either they choose ease, just clicking sell, over even selecting to match the current low sell price and clicking sell; which takes much less time and effort than entering their own price and clicking sell. Maybe they are in a hurry. Maybe they don’t see the point of making a few copper/silver more on each sale. Same with the case for buying.

I think I’m starting to understand your position phys, and it’s not because the Tylenol is wearing off. You think that the flipper, knowingly offering to buy at a price below he could sell at is exploiting the players he is buying from. First of all they are selling to him, the choice was theirs, the flipper did not seek them out. Second, without being able to turn a profit, the flipper would not be offering to buy in the first place. That means that only players looking to use the item will be placing bids but we’ve established that many players, for whatever reason, don’t choose to do so and rather buy from the current low seller. So who becomes the “winner” now? Why it’s those players who bother to use the TP in the way it was envisioned, by placing sell orders for the things they don’t want and buy orders for the stuff they do. They will now be the “exploiters” due to their “skill” of using the non-default options on the TP interface.

So is that the problem? Is the fact the TP suggests sell to high bidder and buy from low seller as default? Maybe there shouldn’t be a default if the problem with flippers are the users who are their suppliers and customers. Reinforce the fact that it’s their choice and not the easiest/quickest way to get back to play. But I suspect the uproar created by forcing the choice would either insist that it should be returned to the way it was or have an option to set what the default should be.

And in the end we would have return to an inefficient marketplace where goods are sold for less than they are worth.

you are mistaken assuming that because people are willing participants they are not being exploited. Most of the time when someone is being exploited, its willingly. Its not till later that they realize it was not in their own best interest, some people never realize, doesnt change the reality.

yeah its exploitation, but capitalism is guided by exploitation, the idea is that every one is trying to exploit each other, that every thing will come into balance. The idea is that all the people ruled by greed/desire to exploit will compete until there is barely any gain, and thus people get the fair price, it happens for many items, but there is always the ones they miss, and the unknown markets, etc.

But you should be clear here, it is greed, self interest and desire to exploit others that forms the guiding hand.

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

you are assuming a lot, this thread is about the philosophy of this sub forum/tp players/tp, and how differing philosophies are one of the reasons for the disconnect and beef between players.

A lot of people are assuming this is specific thread is about saying that they are wrong, or evil, thats up to the each person to decide, but what we are, or should be discussing, is the type of philosophy people have, and how that may be different than the philosophies of other modes. What are the benefits of each philosophy? how does a certain philosophy effect the interaction between different groups? etc.

phys.7689:

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

you are assuming a lot, this thread is about the philosophy of this sub forum/tp players/tp, and how differing philosophies are one of the reasons for the disconnect and beef between players.

A lot of people are assuming this is specific thread is about saying that they are wrong, or evil, thats up to the each person to decide, but what we are, or should be discussing, is the type of philosophy people have, and how that may be different than the philosophies of other modes. What are the benefits of each philosophy? how does a certain philosophy effect the interaction between different groups? etc.

The last time i checked the OP, it was about the question if the BLTC fits into the social design of the game, not about philosophies of certain players or this subforum.

It just has gone off topic quite fast.

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

There should be less flippers if there is no buy order and sell order spread right?

That being said, go back to the original question about economy influence and social play… The game play of GW2 really lack depth. At least their economy have some depth. So you probably are blaming the wrong person for the problem.

One of the problem is the game is really design for casuals, that is probably one of the reason the game dont’ have much depth. Or the game designer dont’ want to take the time to add depth to the core game.

If you can acquire a legendary from adventure or farming. There should be much less people complaining about the traders of the game.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

you are assuming a lot, this thread is about the philosophy of this sub forum/tp players/tp, and how differing philosophies are one of the reasons for the disconnect and beef between players.

A lot of people are assuming this is specific thread is about saying that they are wrong, or evil, thats up to the each person to decide, but what we are, or should be discussing, is the type of philosophy people have, and how that may be different than the philosophies of other modes. What are the benefits of each philosophy? how does a certain philosophy effect the interaction between different groups? etc.

The last time i checked the OP, it was about the question if the BLTC fits into the social design of the game, not about philosophies of certain players or this subforum.

It just has gone off topic quite fast.

hmm you might be right, he may have only mentioned peoples personal philosophies an example.

i wonder if he means the philosophy behind its design, or the philosophy that it engenders in people who interact with it a lot.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

you are assuming a lot, this thread is about the philosophy of this sub forum/tp players/tp, and how differing philosophies are one of the reasons for the disconnect and beef between players.

A lot of people are assuming this is specific thread is about saying that they are wrong, or evil, thats up to the each person to decide, but what we are, or should be discussing, is the type of philosophy people have, and how that may be different than the philosophies of other modes. What are the benefits of each philosophy? how does a certain philosophy effect the interaction between different groups? etc.

The last time i checked the OP, it was about the question if the BLTC fits into the social design of the game, not about philosophies of certain players or this subforum.

It just has gone off topic quite fast.

It was a point I tried to convey in, as you numbered them, 4 to 8, sorry if that wasn’t clear enough.
I thought you understood my point, since you brought up your karma-tax-idea.
An idea I found to be quite interesting and going into the direction of implementing some market-changes gameplay-wise, without breaking the system.

Back to 4.-8.: When people wanted to engage in the TP-trading, players in this forum mostly were friendly and forthcoming.
Still, the helpful comments contained phrases like “curves of what people are willing to pay”(1) and statements like “If you change the recipe, people will still be willing to pay that much for damask.”(2).
I don’t want to judge or condemn anyone(after all, people here are as helpful as players in any other segment of the forum), but for me this kind of “philosophy”((1),(2)) is totally different from people stopping their farming run to rez a fellow player, a loot-system that neglects kill-stealing, phazed gathering instances and the whole combo-system that basically rewards every player for fighting together with boons.
I think it may be that difference that incents the negative feelings which some TP-players receive and perceive as envy, rather than the difference in the account-wallet.

Therefore I wanted to discuss if the TP fits into the social system of GW2, which mostly rewards for playing together.

As to phys question if I think the TP further develops such a philosophy in people who deal a lot with it: I honestly don’t know.
The thought didn’t occur to me. I just found the whole system differing to the rest of GW2.

There are other games that have such a competitive market, like EVE Online for example, where I don’t find that system diversing from the rest of the game that much.

Kill stealing. This has been brought up and I was wondering if the people who are not in zerk gear and grouped in a party of 5 are being exploited by people who are during farm events like the CS gates of arah or when scarlet invaded last year. The ungrouped unzerk people may not get full rewards because they didnt tag the champ or mobs hard enough.

This is an example of knowledgeable people getting better rewards than others for participating in the same game element.

I just thought I should point out that exploitation requires the exploiter to have information that is unavailable to the exploitee, be it with regard to options or to the value of the item.

As all information is clearly presented on the Trading Post with regards to the seller and buyer’s options, no exploitation can occur via the Trading Post as all parties are equally informed as to the item and the price.

Players who use the sell or buy now option have clearly made the decision to lose out on gold in exchange for expediency of delivery. It is not exploitation.

tekfan.3179:

statements like “If you change the recipe, people will still be willing to pay that much for damask.”(2).
I don’t want to judge or condemn anyone(after all, people here are as helpful as players in any other segment of the forum), but for me this kind of “philosophy”((1),(2)) is totally different from people stopping their farming run to rez a fellow player

I actually made the statement about the damask (in relation to why i think cutting the bolt of silk requirements from 100 to 50 bolts will have no effect on the overall price of bolt of damask in the long run).
And i honestly dont know why you somehow think that this assertion is offensive, unsocial or untruthful.

eithinan.9841:

Kill stealing. This has been brought up and I was wondering if the people who are not in zerk gear and grouped in a party of 5 are being exploited by people who are during farm events like the CS gates of arah or when scarlet invaded last year. The ungrouped unzerk people may not get full rewards because they didnt tag the champ or mobs hard enough.

This is an example of knowledgeable people getting better rewards than others for participating in the same game element.

yeah, and anet said this is not an intended consequence, its one of the reasons the reduced the requirement % hp wise to get credit and had to do a fix to make sure the gain exp threshold was the same as the get loot threshold. They said that claiming hits wise this was the best they can do right now, because they cant track other ways of participation that well.

Point is, its not that it doesnt happen, but rather that it is not encouraged, and is actively against the design philosophy(for that part of the game). This is a bit different from the tp, which generally takes a laissez faire buyer beware stance.

Thing is, i dont know that there are too many other ways to handle the market. However I may be limited by my upbringing in a similar system.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

Kill stealing. This has been brought up and I was wondering if the people who are not in zerk gear and grouped in a party of 5 are being exploited by people who are during farm events like the CS gates of arah or when scarlet invaded last year. The ungrouped unzerk people may not get full rewards because they didnt tag the champ or mobs hard enough.

This is an example of knowledgeable people getting better rewards than others for participating in the same game element.

yeah, and anet said this is not an intended consequence, its one of the reasons the reduced the requirement % hp wise to get credit and had to do a fix to make sure the gain exp threshold was the same as the get loot threshold. They said that claiming hits wise this was the best they can do right now, because they cant track other ways of participation that well.

Point is, its not that it doesnt happen, but rather that it is not encouraged, and is actively against the design philosophy(for that part of the game). This is a bit different from the tp, which generally takes a laissez faire buyer beware stance.

Thing is, i dont know that there are too many other ways to handle the market. However I may be limited by my upbringing in a similar system.

What about in WvW and support classes. Anet has proven over time they only reward DPS so I guess all the support Guardians, Ele’s etc are being exploited by the DPS.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

Kill stealing. This has been brought up and I was wondering if the people who are not in zerk gear and grouped in a party of 5 are being exploited by people who are during farm events like the CS gates of arah or when scarlet invaded last year. The ungrouped unzerk people may not get full rewards because they didnt tag the champ or mobs hard enough.

This is an example of knowledgeable people getting better rewards than others for participating in the same game element.

yeah, and anet said this is not an intended consequence, its one of the reasons the reduced the requirement % hp wise to get credit and had to do a fix to make sure the gain exp threshold was the same as the get loot threshold. They said that claiming hits wise this was the best they can do right now, because they cant track other ways of participation that well.

Point is, its not that it doesnt happen, but rather that it is not encouraged, and is actively against the design philosophy(for that part of the game). This is a bit different from the tp, which generally takes a laissez faire buyer beware stance.

Thing is, i dont know that there are too many other ways to handle the market. However I may be limited by my upbringing in a similar system.

What about in WvW and support classes. Anet has proven over time they only reward DPS so I guess all the support Guardians, Ele’s etc are being exploited by the DPS.

like your other case, anet said that they want to change that, but they dont have the means to track much besides DPS and attendance. Its actually a big problem in WvW, because they cant incentize defense, and specific tasks, like spotting, support builds, and dolyak supply runs, etc.

But like i said, they acknowledge these are issues, and they hope to come up with the some better solutions to these issues. Point is, they have actively said that it is not how they envision these things working, and if they can come up with some better solutions, they intend to implement it.

Similar cases of altruistic behavior are not even within the scope of possibilities within the TP. Mostly because few people believe anyone would make use of anything in a trade that would not directly benefit themselves, or be exploited by others.

Can you imagine,
like a donation tab for people to give items to newbies, or builds with special item reqs? An ability to choose to sell to a higher buy order if you feel someone has entered an undercutter war/etc
These things to me sound highly improbable, and even if they were there, i think its fairly probable they would be exploited.

However, when you look at the other game modes, i have seen people giving away items in map chat, you look at WvW, people spend their own time/money on supply traps/catapults, people calling for others to give out feasts, communities throwing events, and doing give aways. People going out of their way to res people, etc. People joining/starting story missions to help lowbies/alts

So while it may seem crazy to me in some cases, there is definately a difference in philosophy from other game modes to the TP.

kind of interesting really.

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

statements like “If you change the recipe, people will still be willing to pay that much for damask.”(2).
I don’t want to judge or condemn anyone(after all, people here are as helpful as players in any other segment of the forum), but for me this kind of “philosophy”((1),(2)) is totally different from people stopping their farming run to rez a fellow player

I actually made the statement about the damask (in relation to why i think cutting the bolt of silk requirements from 100 to 50 bolts will have no effect on the overall price of bolt of damask in the long run).
And i honestly dont know why you somehow think that this assertion is offensive, unsocial or untruthful.

Yes, I know in what relation you made that statement, also regarding the requirements of wool and linen, which would remain the same if damask required less silk.
As a trader you might find this statement truthful and nothing more than an assertion.
As far as I got you, you simply think that with the prices for linen and wool the price wouldn’t be impacted by the change of silk.

Still it would mean you would ignore a requirement-reduction of a ware that is being traded for 2.2s-2.6s. If you’d need only half of the silk you need now, that would mean you keep the same price for an item that would suddenly be 3.3g-3.9g cheaper to produce. You don’t find that at least a bit contradictionary in a game where, as long as you participate, you are being rewarded, no matter how little DPS you’ve dealt?

And to make myself clear: I’m not saying the assertion is untruthful, offensive or unsocial, I just find it could be discussed if it is matching with the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

In answer to the OP, yes, I find that the TP as currently structured is a good match for the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

• You play how you like (for the most part).
• You can sell most of the stuff you can’t use on the TP for market rates.
• You can buy most of the stuff you want or need on the TP for market rates.
• You don’t have to care at all about the economy, because other people do that for you, including John Smith (in a role that few other games support) and including market players (whose actions end up removing a ton of gold from the game and also keep prices more even than they would be without a “free” market).

That’s pretty close to the ideal setup for the state of MMOs in 2014, in my opinion.

As an addendum, keep in mind that market “players” (speculators, flippers, etc) exist in every MMO’s economy. The difference in GW2 is that their actions are public, whereas in other MMOs, they are hidden. This allows the market to adjust to manipulation attempts far faster than in other games.

I’m not saying all speculation is good nor am I saying that market players are altruistic heroes. I am saying that the TP allows people to behave like…humans do (some greedy, some not) and still end up with a largely positive result for the vast majority of players.

I think there’s often a lot of public reaction about savvy trading (and how much some people earn from it), because it’s so easy to see. In other games, it happens behind the scenes, so that most people don’t even realize how much better it is in GW2.

tekfan.3179:

Still it would mean you would ignore a requirement-reduction of a ware that is being traded for 2.2s-2.6s. If you’d need only half of the silk you need now, that would mean you keep the same price for an item that would suddenly be 3.3g-3.9g cheaper to produce. You don’t find that at least a bit contradictionary in a game where, as long as you participate, you are being rewarded, no matter how little DPS you’ve dealt?

And to make myself clear: I’m not saying the assertion is untruthful, offensive or unsocial, I just find it could be discussed if it is matching with the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

I am afraid you lost me a little when you compared the price of Spool of Silk Weaving Thread to DPS. If you want to discuss this further, i think it would help me, if you state wether you agree or disagree with my assertion that even if they half the silk requirements, the price for bolt of damask will soon rise again to its current price because demand (and therefore price) for wool/cotton/linen, will rise.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In answer to the OP, yes, I find that the TP as currently structured is a good match for the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

• You play how you like (for the most part).
• You can sell most of the stuff you can’t use on the TP for market rates.
• You can buy most of the stuff you want or need on the TP for market rates.
• You don’t have to care at all about the economy, because other people do that for you, including John Smith (in a role that few other games support) and including market players (whose actions end up removing a ton of gold from the game and also keep prices more even than they would be without a “free” market).

That’s pretty close to the ideal setup for the state of MMOs in 2014, in my opinion.

As an addendum, keep in mind that market “players” (speculators, flippers, etc) exist in every MMO’s economy. The difference in GW2 is that their actions are public, whereas in other MMOs, they are hidden. This allows the market to adjust to manipulation attempts far faster than in other games.

I’m not saying all speculation is good nor am I saying that market players are altruistic heroes. I am saying that the TP allows people to behave like…humans do (some greedy, some not) and still end up with a largely positive result for the vast majority of players.

I think there’s often a lot of public reaction about savvy trading (and how much some people earn from it), because it’s so easy to see. In other games, it happens behind the scenes, so that most people don’t even realize how much better it is in GW2.

Great post here. People can play how they want = gw2 game philosophy

eithinan.9841:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In answer to the OP, yes, I find that the TP as currently structured is a good match for the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

• You play how you like (for the most part).
• You can sell most of the stuff you can’t use on the TP for market rates.
• You can buy most of the stuff you want or need on the TP for market rates.
• You don’t have to care at all about the economy, because other people do that for you, including John Smith (in a role that few other games support) and including market players (whose actions end up removing a ton of gold from the game and also keep prices more even than they would be without a “free” market).

That’s pretty close to the ideal setup for the state of MMOs in 2014, in my opinion.

As an addendum, keep in mind that market “players” (speculators, flippers, etc) exist in every MMO’s economy. The difference in GW2 is that their actions are public, whereas in other MMOs, they are hidden. This allows the market to adjust to manipulation attempts far faster than in other games.

I’m not saying all speculation is good nor am I saying that market players are altruistic heroes. I am saying that the TP allows people to behave like…humans do (some greedy, some not) and still end up with a largely positive result for the vast majority of players.

I think there’s often a lot of public reaction about savvy trading (and how much some people earn from it), because it’s so easy to see. In other games, it happens behind the scenes, so that most people don’t even realize how much better it is in GW2.

Great post here. People can play how they want = gw2 game philosophy

Yeah, just got a +1 from me as well.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In answer to the OP, yes, I find that the TP as currently structured is a good match for the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.
* You play how you like (for the most part).

• You can sell most of the stuff you can’t use on the TP for market rates.
• You can buy most of the stuff you want or need on the TP for market rates.
• You don’t have to care at all about the economy, because other people do that for you, including John Smith (in a role that few other games support) and including market players (whose actions end up removing a ton of gold from the game and also keep prices more even than they would be without a “free” market).

That’s pretty close to the ideal setup for the state of MMOs in 2014, in my opinion.

As an addendum, keep in mind that market “players” (speculators, flippers, etc) exist in every MMO’s economy. The difference in GW2 is that their actions are public, whereas in other MMOs, they are hidden. This allows the market to adjust to manipulation attempts far faster than in other games.

I’m not saying all speculation is good nor am I saying that market players are altruistic heroes. I am saying that the TP allows people to behave like…humans do (some greedy, some not) and still end up with a largely positive result for the vast majority of players.

I think there’s often a lot of public reaction about savvy trading (and how much some people earn from it), because it’s so easy to see. In other games, it happens behind the scenes, so that most people don’t even realize how much better it is in GW2.

I think most mmorpg which have a trader system let people sell and buy things, so I’ll just emphasize on the difference which is to play the way you want.

Being gold centric, where every reward is paid in gold or can be bought with gold. You can pretty much do any activities and get the rewards you want. That is not the problem.

The problem is all the activities rewards people at different rate. And in particular, investing or short term flipping. The rewards paid out really well. A guy bought a few grimming shield, and later use those money to invest in wind catcher have enough money to buy 26 legendary weapons. While it is possible to buy legendary through just normal playing, the rate is much slower.

Not only that playing how you want actually backfired. Because most people are actually not playing how they want. They are playing the most effective way to make money.

If you read the forums, there is a repulsive feeling against flippers, because “some of them” managed to acquire wealth at a much faster rate. And since every thing can be bought with gold, their ability to acquire wealth fast are rewarded really well.

Now compare to other mmorpg, traders either dont’ acquire wealth fast. Or the traders do acquire wealth fast, but legendary gear are exclusive to dungeon crawler, so no one actually complain about traders. Which get to the main topic, you see people envy or jealous of flippers, which usually don’t happen in other mmorpg. That is probably the issue the OP trying to emphasize.

laokoko.7403:

Which get to the main topic, you see people envy or jealous of flippers, which usually don’t happen in other mmorpg.

This is incorrect. People complain about flippers or traders or people making money off of the market instead of killing mobs in every MMO I know of (with the notable exception of EVE, where it is celebrated by their community leaders). As long as there are highly desirable items that can be bought and sold, people will complain about merchants making money at a higher rate than grinders.

The difference is that GW2 has a forum specifically for discussing the trading post and, seemingly, complaining about flippers, while in most other games those threads get buried in larger, faster moving forums.

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

Still it would mean you would ignore a requirement-reduction of a ware that is being traded for 2.2s-2.6s. If you’d need only half of the silk you need now, that would mean you keep the same price for an item that would suddenly be 3.3g-3.9g cheaper to produce. You don’t find that at least a bit contradictionary in a game where, as long as you participate, you are being rewarded, no matter how little DPS you’ve dealt?

And to make myself clear: I’m not saying the assertion is untruthful, offensive or unsocial, I just find it could be discussed if it is matching with the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

I am afraid you lost me a little when you compared the price of Spool of Silk Weaving Thread to DPS. If you want to discuss this further, i think it would help me, if you state wether you agree or disagree with my assertion that even if they half the silk requirements, the price for bolt of damask will soon rise again to its current price because demand (and therefore price) for wool/cotton/linen, will rise.

No problem.
I understood that you were referring to the supply/demand-ratio of the other cloth-bolts to “compensate” the lowered silk-requirement.
I’m not necessarily supporting your assertion, but wouldn’t call it an impossibility either.
However, let’s imagine for a second that it wouldn’t happen and that damask would become ~3.5g cheaper in production. As a trader, would you convey this dropped price to the consumers, even if they would still be willing to pay 15g for a bolt of damask? I’d rather assume you’d go for the additional profit.
While this is not evil, I find that to be a different philosophy than people being rewarded from the game for a tiny amount of damage on a boss that others basically melted. A lot of the game rewards altruistic behaviour by design, the TP is certainly not. Could I convey my comparison this time, or is the dps-example still too farfetched?

Ensign.2189:

laokoko.7403:

Which get to the main topic, you see people envy or jealous of flippers, which usually don’t happen in other mmorpg.

This is incorrect. People complain about flippers or traders or people making money off of the market instead of killing mobs in every MMO I know of (with the notable exception of EVE, where it is celebrated by their community leaders). As long as there are highly desirable items that can be bought and sold, people will complain about merchants making money at a higher rate than grinders.

The difference is that GW2 has a forum specifically for discussing the trading post and, seemingly, complaining about flippers, while in most other games those threads get buried in larger, faster moving forums.

I think when people talk about discussion, they usually go with the extreme. Obviously the same issue came up else where. The most noticeable to me is vanilla Diablo 3.

I just felt it is more of a problem in GW2. First of all, a huge percentage of games have the best gear only drop exclusively for dungeon crawler. So they never care “that much” traders can make a bazillion gold. Second of all, some games just have much less much opportunities for traders to make money. For example, GW2, have many event exclusive items, centralized auction house for all servers(larger market), strong emphasis on crafting materials(or way too much crafting material), shorter patch period, basically a more volatile market, buy/sell order system which favors flippers.

I don’t deny this kind of things happened in other games. I just see it much less of a problem in other games because many other games make their best gear account bound and exclusive to dungeon crawler, and other games(at least the ones I played), have much less volatile market.

If you felt other games have as much of a problem too, I respect that. Maybe I just didn’t play that much other games which “I felt” have the same problems too.

Ensign.2189:

laokoko.7403:

Which get to the main topic, you see people envy or jealous of flippers, which usually don’t happen in other mmorpg.

This is incorrect. People complain about flippers or traders or people making money off of the market instead of killing mobs in every MMO I know of (with the notable exception of EVE, where it is celebrated by their community leaders). As long as there are highly desirable items that can be bought and sold, people will complain about merchants making money at a higher rate than grinders.

The difference is that GW2 has a forum specifically for discussing the trading post and, seemingly, complaining about flippers, while in most other games those threads get buried in larger, faster moving forums.

First of all, you need to assume there are actually highly desirable items that can be bought and sold. I rarely felt so in other games, because a huge percentage of games have the best gear hide inside dungeons and many of them are account bound.

Second of all, you need to assume other games, merchant making money faster than grinders.

Those 2 facts you point out obviously is happening in GW2. I dont’ personally felt it is true for that many online games. You obviously felt so, and I respect that.