Guild Wars 2

Sure, your playstyle involves obtaining the shiny new thing. That’s fine.

Sure, real money may get you to your goal easier than everything else.

However, the “normal” methods are not unrealistic or slow. If you’re talking about the Gem Store, don’t bring up Gold to Gems. If you’re talking about Pay to Win, first off, separate the cash shop from the non-CS players. If you don’t want to throw your wallet at Arenanet, then you have to realize that your playstyle will involve nothing bought from the Gem Store.

After that, realize that everything in the Gem Store is either convenience, aesthetics, or fun/silly items.

You don’t need convenience to surpass others.

You don’t need to be pretty to surpass others (perhaps in a beauty contest, but that’s a niche playstyle which involves obtaining lots of skins, see: expensive).

You don’t need to have for fun/silly items to surpass others.

Yes, you can throw your money at the game and get more things than players who spend their time obtaining them. That’s true, but you won’t succeed unless your playstyle doesn’t actually involve any of the combat styles of the game (see: winning).

You don’t need to get a skin to beat other players or bosses. In Maplestory, you DO need to get godly items to beat other players or bosses.

Sure, you might not enjoy having only one bank tab. That’s understandable. You might also not enjoy using characters for bank space. That’s also understandable. However, if you are going to go down the route of playing as a person who puts themselves into a position where it’s “I need this, but I don’t want to get this because it’s more efficient to spend real money” you might need to re-evaluate your gaming style or your game.

It’s been more efficient to get gold via real money for over a year. If you wanted the most efficient method of getting gold, it would be to get a part time job (or even a full time job). You use that money to get gold. Now, obviously, most players don’t like that idea at all, but it’s real and it exists.

Now, just to play the devil’s advocate, think about this:

If you spend a few hours ingame doing dungeons and playing the TP (while doing dungeons), you can earn yourself a shiny penny, upwards of 10-20g in a few hours. Even more if you’re very efficient at what you do. You’ve worked for that gold and you’ve earned it.

If you spend a few hours at work doing whatever your job description requires, you can earn yourself a shiny penny, at least $5 an hour (mowing Aunt Lizzie’s lawn. If she’s cheap, then maybe you should re-evaluate your job). Even more if you’re very efficient at what you do. You’ve worked for that money and you’ve earned it.

Sure, if the person who worked ingame wanted to buy something from the Gem Store, they would be in for a bad time. That’s true.

Sure, if the person who worked in reality wanted to buy something in the Trading Post, they would be in for an easy time. That’s also true.

But did neither of them earn their currencies?

If they both spend their ingame currencies on obtaining a Legendary, then both of them will have earned it through dedication and hard work.

However, only one of them would actually have the skills to show that they’re good. The other, however, would have a job and therefore isn’t any worse than the first player.

While Gem→Gold may interfere with your playstyle, keep in mind that the currency exchange is based on how much people use either side. The reason why it’s so expensive is because most players don’t buy gold with gems. Next time you see someone with a Legendary, try to figure out if they bought it with gold, gems, or made it themselves. If you do that with every player you see with a Legendary, I assure you, you’ll rarely find the casual whale.

Additionally, and this is the main point, spending real money will not give you any advantage over another player unless you count looking swag as being an advantage.

But haven’t you ever heard that being fashionable isn’t cheap?

However, the “normal” methods are not unrealistic or slow. If you’re talking about the Gem Store, don’t bring up Gold to Gems.

It’s all fungible. Anything that is cash-to-ingame effect is all the same, whether you buy an item off the gem store and sell it for gold, buy an item off the gem store using cash, buy gems off the gem store and turn those into gold, etc. So long as you take cash and convert it into something in game, you are buying an ingame impact using cash. One has to make a comparison between the value you can get from cash being converted into in-game effect, verses the amount of in-game labor you would have to put forth to achieve that same effect.

If you don’t want to throw your wallet at Arenanet, then you have to realize that your playstyle will involve nothing bought from the Gem Store.

That’s not true. You do have the option of converting gold to gems and buying things off the gem store that way. I’m sure plenty of TP-Tycoons do just that, and there are plenty of discussions when new gem store items come out as to whether they are “worth it” purely in terms of their gold value, for example comparing the lifetime cost of buying a silver-fed salvage-o-matic over standard kits in purely gold terms.

After that, realize that everything in the Gem Store is either convenience, aesthetics, or fun/silly items.

Not everything. Lots of things, yes, but there are plenty of items that can give you significant effectiveness advantages, like having more character slots, more bank tabs (to store more items at once, which is non-trivial), there are gem-store skins that can sell for high values, or that are attached to achievements which bump your AP score. Again, if you’re only measuring your combat effectiveness, they might not have a huge impact, but if you’re measuring your overall progress through the entirety of the game’s content, they can have a massive impact.

Yes, you can throw your money at the game and get more things than players who spend their time obtaining them. That’s true, but you won’t succeed unless your playstyle doesn’t actually involve any of the combat styles of the game (see: winning).

Ok, but let’s assume our moneybags isn’t a complete faceroller. Let’s assume that he’s a quite talented fellow, perfectly capable of performing at the same level you can. Now, let’s say you and he are both starting from a blank account tomorrow. He crafts his way to 80, 500 in the crafts he needs, buys a full set of exotics, a Legendary, and starts farming for ascended mats before logging off. You get out of Queensdale, maybe hitting level 20. Now let’s say you both play the same amount of time per day, you grinding up to 80 and trying to set aside enough for gear, him farming ascended mats, exotic skins, etc.

You would eventually catch up to where he is, because there’s not infinite growth in this game, but he’d likely have full ascended, especially since he could afford to buy finished time-gated mats off the TP, before you would even have a full set of exotics. It would likely take you months to catch up, and in the meantime, he’s been doing level 80 content the entire time, so chances are he would be even better at using the full range of his abilities than you, who had to focus on a limited ability pool most of the time.

It’s not “pay to be better than anyone else,” but it’s certainly by any definition “pay to be the best I can be faster and easier than by not paying.”

But did neither of them earn their currencies?

I believe that ideally, the money you make outside the game should not translate into success inside the game. People make vastly different amounts of money outside the game for the work they do, and there’s no way to say that someone who can afford to drop a ton of money into the gem store has “earned” that money more than someone who cannot afford to do so. The latter person may have worked just as hard, but just gets paid less for his labor. The former person may not even work at all, but just happens to have a lot of money for various reasons.

I tend to think that only effort in the game itself should result in reward in the game itself. GW2 runs on a different philosophy than that, and I’m at peace with that fact, but I don’t think it’s honest to try and downplay or obfuscate that fact either. The game is pay-to-win, and I’m ok with that, but it IS pay-to-win.

Esplen.3940:

I noticed the button when the blog post appeared. When I actually get ingame, I’m too busy clicking through the TP to care about some text in the corner. :/

Same here .. when i read the blog i already expected a big outcry about it in the forums,
however it was really not that big as i have expected it. Now in game i really haven’t
even noticed that button at all unless i searched for it after seeing this thread ^^

Just to clarify: my main objection is the placement of the button not its existence per se – it takes up space in the most valuable area of the UI.

scerevisiae.1972:

Just to clarify: my main objection is the placement of the button not its existence per se – it takes up space in the most valuable area of the UI.

Under your gold amount is “most valuable area of the UI”? Right …

I think anyone with half a brain can realize the button is an advertisement.

Anyone that is vaguely aware of the games economic model should not be surprised by it’s existence, size or placement. Do some players not realize just how necessary it is to the continued operation of the game, or do they just subliminally not want to be reminded of that fact?

Anyone that thinks GW2 is “pay to win” has a twisted notion of what “winning” is and needs to re-evaluate why they are playing the game if they truly believe a Legendary weapon and Ascended armor on every character is why they are playing it (“winning”?)

sprocket pickaxe = P2W

dAcIaW.5107:

sprocket pickaxe = P2W

I already told you guys… I am the sprocket king. I have won the game by accumulating the most sprockets. You can stop playing and talking about the sprocket now.

Seriously though, the Sprocket Pickaxe is no more P2W than any other gemstore item, it is just more direct with the level of convenience it bestows. If you think that convenience = P2W, then the game shipped that way and the Sprocket Pickaxe is therefore no more P2W than anything else because the entire gemstore is P2W.

mtpelion.4562:

dAcIaW.5107:

sprocket pickaxe = P2W

I already told you guys… I am the sprocket king. I have won the game by accumulating the most sprockets. You can stop playing and talking about the sprocket now.

Seriously though, the Sprocket Pickaxe is no more P2W than any other gemstore item, it is just more direct with the level of convenience it bestows. If you think that convenience = P2W, then the game shipped that way and the Sprocket Pickaxe is therefore no more P2W than anything else because the entire gemstore is P2W.

There are people posting on these forums who think that being able to buy pretty weapons or armor from the gem store means that Guild Wars 2 is pay to win. (Apparently styling is the new PvP battle ground). You’ll never be able to convince these people that getting extra sprockets isn’t p2w.

Astral Projections.7320:

There are people posting on these forums who think that being able to buy pretty weapons or armor from the gem store means that Guild Wars 2 is pay to win. (Apparently styling is the new PvP battle ground). You’ll never be able to convince these people that getting extra sprockets isn’t p2w.

I think people spend too much time arguing about definition.

Obviously those people who real life money can skip a lot of grind to gain “things” faster.

For example “hey! there is some cool thing in gem store” I’ll just spend 10$ on it. Or you can spend 10 hours farming in game for it.

kitten those rich people =). I hope I’m rich so I can toss money around the gem store =(

laokoko.7403:

I think people spend too much time arguing about definition.

Obviously those people who real life money can skip a lot of grind to gain “things” faster.

For example “hey! there is some cool thing in gem store” I’ll just spend 10$ on it. Or you can spend 10 hours farming in game for it.

kitten those rich people =). I hope I’m rich so I can toss money around the gem store =(

As they spend $8 for their morning double shot mocha latte or $9 on a pack of cigs or stop by the pub on the way home for a couple of craft beers for a ten spot.

Nope, not spending $10 on gems.

Behellagh.1468:

laokoko.7403:

I think people spend too much time arguing about definition.

Obviously those people who real life money can skip a lot of grind to gain “things” faster.

For example “hey! there is some cool thing in gem store” I’ll just spend 10$ on it. Or you can spend 10 hours farming in game for it.

kitten those rich people =). I hope I’m rich so I can toss money around the gem store =(

As they spend $8 for their morning double shot mocha latte or $9 on a pack of cigs or stop by the pub on the way home for a couple of craft beers for a ten spot.

Nope, not spending $10 on gems.

ya I think the problem is most of the $10 stuff on gem store I can afford with in game gold.

But some of the other really expensive items, like legendary, or permanent hair license, or collecting some pretty skins will cost me hundreds of $. I can’t throw a few hundreds of $ around, and spending 10$ for me is kind of pointless.

The permanent licenses are pure bait, always have been. They were awesome surprises when they first dropped but they are clearly white whale material.

In the original GW costumes, what we called outfits, cost $6.99. Outfits cost 700 gems or $8.75. It’s nothing like the ticket skin racket which is the only really costly skins in the game.

Behellagh.1468:

The permanent licenses are pure bait, always have been. They were awesome surprises when they first dropped but they are clearly white whale material.

In the original GW costumes, what we called outfits, cost $6.99. Outfits cost 700 gems or $8.75. It’s nothing like the ticket skin racket which is the only really costly skins in the game.

well, I just went and spent $8.75 to buy an ceremonial outfit.

The other stuff I want would cost hundreds of dollar. Those money I personally just can’t afford.

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

The permanent licenses are pure bait, always have been. They were awesome surprises when they first dropped but they are clearly white whale material.

In the original GW costumes, what we called outfits, cost $6.99. Outfits cost 700 gems or $8.75. It’s nothing like the ticket skin racket which is the only really costly skins in the game.

well, I just went and spent $8.75 to buy an ceremonial outfit.

The other stuff I want would cost hundreds of dollar. Those money I personally just can’t afford.

You mean keys then because unless you are buying all the armor and outfits or piles of minis there really isn’t anything a player can spend hundreds of dollars on.

Behellagh.1468:

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

The permanent licenses are pure bait, always have been. They were awesome surprises when they first dropped but they are clearly white whale material.

In the original GW costumes, what we called outfits, cost $6.99. Outfits cost 700 gems or $8.75. It’s nothing like the ticket skin racket which is the only really costly skins in the game.

well, I just went and spent $8.75 to buy an ceremonial outfit.

The other stuff I want would cost hundreds of dollar. Those money I personally just can’t afford.

You mean keys then because unless you are buying all the armor and outfits or piles of minis there really isn’t anything a player can spend hundreds of dollars on.

A few ascended armor and weapon set, permanent hair license, hallowean chain saw, ghastly shield, legendaries.

Those just arn’t things you can get by spending 10$ a month.

I think it does come down to definitions somewhat. For a game like GW2, where aesthetics is basically the end-game (see: Legendaries, and the Flamekissed armor controversy), I think it’s perfectly reasonable for players to view the ability to buy rare, coveted skins as p2w if the quickest, easiest route is simply to throw gems at it.

But does that bother me? Nope. As I’ve stated before, I care only about what MY character (and my girlfriend’s characters) look like. It doesn’t matter a whit to me what some random stranger, or even a friend, is using. I don’t care whether you grinded for 5 years to get it, or whether you plopped down $2000 for it. If you like how it looks on you, good on you. That’s what’s important. Don’t bother what other players think about your appearance, because I guarantee that the vast majority of them don’t care either.

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

The permanent licenses are pure bait, always have been. They were awesome surprises when they first dropped but they are clearly white whale material.

In the original GW costumes, what we called outfits, cost $6.99. Outfits cost 700 gems or $8.75. It’s nothing like the ticket skin racket which is the only really costly skins in the game.

well, I just went and spent $8.75 to buy an ceremonial outfit.

The other stuff I want would cost hundreds of dollar. Those money I personally just can’t afford.

You mean keys then because unless you are buying all the armor and outfits or piles of minis there really isn’t anything a player can spend hundreds of dollars on.

A few ascended armor and weapon set, permanent hair license, hallowean chain saw, ghastly shield, legendaries.

Those just arn’t things you can get by spending 10$ a month.

Which aren’t at the Gem Shop but in the player trading post. In which case the GET MORE GOLD ad works. Still requires the player to make the mental leap of buying gems with cash and then converting it to gold to buy something off the TP. Not sure how many can think that many steps ahead.

I never convert gems into gold. they crack down on gold sellers, this is not really any better (unless you’re ANet). I also rarely convert gold to gems, only in cases where I’ve bought most of the gems I need with cash, but would need to buy $10 more to cover about $1 in gems that I need, so I top off the difference with gold. I buy gems with cash when I decide to buy things, because I want to support the game I enjoy, and then I hold on to the remainder until the next time I want something. I think I have about 90 gems lying around at the moment.