Guild Wars 2

I support the idea of getting rid of achievements – the really easy, can’t fail achievements. I would happily see all those go – banking gold for golden, please.

Keep in achievements that are actually achievements such as this puzzle, in fact all puzzles, world bosses and dungeon completion. WvW and PvP kills and suchlike but please get rid of achievements for drinking or eating x amount and collecting minipets and all that sort of meaningless garbage.

I would like the clock tower to be a solo puzzle, would solve most issues people have.

Other than that I don’t mind the difficulty as such: persevere or not, it’s entirely up to you and how you feel about it.
Since it doesn’t effect anything else, I don’t mind that it’s harder than most other things so far (if not all…).

I understand people not liking it, but I don’t mind it being what it is: a tough challenge.

As I said: would have been fairer for all if it was solo, that’s my only issue.

sushihead.9360:

fellyn.5083:

There is no way Anet can safely make content that caters to every single person who wants to play in every part of the world. It’s just impossible. So your solution is because maybe 1% of the players are in this situation the rest shouldn’t be able to have a go at it is basically what you’re saying.

I would love for ANet to show us what percent of players actually completed this at least once. Somehow I bet it’s more than 1%.

Why would that be relevant at all?

Kimbald.2697:

I would like the clock tower to be a solo puzzle, would solve most issues people have.

Other than that I don’t mind the difficulty as such: persevere or not, it’s entirely up to you and how you feel about it.
Since it doesn’t effect anything else, I don’t mind that it’s harder than most other things so far (if not all…).

I understand people not liking it, but I don’t mind it being what it is: a tough challenge.

As I said: would have been fairer for all if it was solo, that’s my only issue.

The biggest challenge to the puzzle is the constantly mess of 10 other players blocking your view.

Every time I have gotten near the top has been because there were a small amount of people or they died off quickly at the start.

I think the difficulty level is fine.

I’d like to see the puzzle as a solo, client-side puzzle. That would make it responsive and based upon your own skill level.

Having an achievement for that scenario is perfect.

I think the rage is part of the experience. I was getting rather irritated myself. Not really in a “OMG ANET I HATE THIS.” kinda way. It was more of a Nintendo era rage feeling, haha.

But once you master it, it’s not bad. There’s a number of areas that just take trial and error to learn the hangups. Along with that, once I finished, I felt pretty great!

sushihead.9360:

Kimbald.2697:

I would like the clock tower to be a solo puzzle, would solve most issues people have.

Other than that I don’t mind the difficulty as such: persevere or not, it’s entirely up to you and how you feel about it.
Since it doesn’t effect anything else, I don’t mind that it’s harder than most other things so far (if not all…).

I understand people not liking it, but I don’t mind it being what it is: a tough challenge.

As I said: would have been fairer for all if it was solo, that’s my only issue.

The biggest challenge to the puzzle is the constantly mess of 10 other players blocking your view.

I think challenges shouldn’t be so random.
With a few minor changes I think it could be just as challenging solo, but than without race or size differences.

I’m not knocking it for that, just saying that this is the one thing I would change. It’s a puzzle, not much reason for it to be such a group thing.

juno.1840:

I think the difficulty level is fine.

I’d like to see the puzzle as a solo, client-side puzzle. That would make it responsive and based upon your own skill level.

Having an achievement for that scenario is perfect.

But you’re not fine with the difficulty. You can’t say you’re fine with the difficulty and then in the next sentence say it should be easier. Which removing the players from the puzzle would make it about 100x easier.

fellyn.5083:

juno.1840:

I think the difficulty level is fine.

I’d like to see the puzzle as a solo, client-side puzzle. That would make it responsive and based upon your own skill level.

Having an achievement for that scenario is perfect.

But you’re not fine with the difficulty because the mess of players thins out quite quickly. It’s part of the challenge to make it past them.

You can’t say you’re fine with the difficulty and then in the next sentence say it should be easier.

My main point is that the puzzle should be completely client side, removing the server position calculations. This naturally requires the puzzle to be a “solo” instance.

That aside, I’m really baffled by your response. Is this a jumping puzzle or not? You feel that having the challenge of other players obstructing your view is ideal? You think removing the other players lessens your accomplishment? Once the horde thins out, it’s essentially a solo instance anyway…

you know what I found the best suggestion so far, without removing the difficulty aspect of other players, and yet not giving the issue of big vs small characters?

it was on this forum in a lost post:

Turn everyone into skeletons or something else fitting…

that simple. Both sides happy.

How do people complain about this? They designed an awesome, hard but TOTALLY fair puzzle.

Entitlement in gaming is really really sad these days.

sushihead.9360:

GET RID OF THE HUGE CHARACTERS, THEY MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FINISH THIS JUMPING PUZZLE

Yeah because we all made our huge characters 3 months ago to sabotage a jumping puzzle we had no idea would ever exist.

New flash, the problem affects people with max size characters too. Deal with it.

juno.1840:

fellyn.5083:

juno.1840:

I think the difficulty level is fine.

I’d like to see the puzzle as a solo, client-side puzzle. That would make it responsive and based upon your own skill level.

Having an achievement for that scenario is perfect.

But you’re not fine with the difficulty because the mess of players thins out quite quickly. It’s part of the challenge to make it past them.

You can’t say you’re fine with the difficulty and then in the next sentence say it should be easier.

My main point is that the puzzle should be completely client side, removing the server position calculations. This naturally requires the puzzle to be a “solo” instance.

That aside, I’m really baffled by your response. Is this a jumping puzzle or not? You feel that having the challenge of other players obstructing your view is ideal? You think removing the other players lessens your accomplishment? Once the horde thins out, it’s essentially a solo instance anyway…

It is mostly client side. And it’s a race. The fastest most accurate players win. The ones who aren’t don’t.

juno.1840:

fellyn.5083:

juno.1840:

I think the difficulty level is fine.

I’d like to see the puzzle as a solo, client-side puzzle. That would make it responsive and based upon your own skill level.

Having an achievement for that scenario is perfect.

But you’re not fine with the difficulty because the mess of players thins out quite quickly. It’s part of the challenge to make it past them.

You can’t say you’re fine with the difficulty and then in the next sentence say it should be easier.

My main point is that the puzzle should be completely client side, removing the server position calculations. This naturally requires the puzzle to be a “solo” instance.

That aside, I’m really baffled by your response. Is this a jumping puzzle or not? You feel that having the challenge of other players obstructing your view is ideal? You think removing the other players lessens your accomplishment? Once the horde thins out, it’s essentially a solo instance anyway…

Yes, the crowdedness and waiting is PART of the challenge. The herd thins out primarily BECAUSE of this part of the challenge.

And this is a MMO, yes, other players will always be part of the play (just like enemies is the WubWubs jumping puzzles).

displacedTitan.6897:

How do people complain about this? They designed an awesome, hard but TOTALLY fair puzzle.

Entitlement in gaming is really really sad these days.

only it’s not when you have 3 giant Charr blocking your view

sushihead.9360:

displacedTitan.6897:

How do people complain about this? They designed an awesome, hard but TOTALLY fair puzzle.

Entitlement in gaming is really really sad these days.

only it’s not when you have 3 giant Charr blocking your view

Its not what? Fair? You realize EVERYONE has those 3 giant Charr blocking view right?

Good players adapt.

Just curious…anyone completed the jump without having to use the mouse?

I’m playing this game on my notebook with a touch pad, viewing around is already tough enough; having a timed jumping quest seems very difficult.

displacedTitan.6897:

sushihead.9360:

displacedTitan.6897:

How do people complain about this? They designed an awesome, hard but TOTALLY fair puzzle.

Entitlement in gaming is really really sad these days.

only it’s not when you have 3 giant Charr blocking your view

Its not what? Fair? You realize EVERYONE has those 3 giant Charr blocking view right?

Good players adapt.

My adaption, making a giant charr myself and blocking everyone elses view so I can see where I am jumping. Named her Blocking Your View

I find it amazing that people defend the puzzle being a multi-player event. As if this lessens the puzzle if the other players are removed… it sounds very artificial to me.

This is a solo achievement, not a group achievement. It’s not a dungeon requiring multiple players working as a team to complete.

It not a “mostly client side” puzzle either — having multiple players in the event proves that wrong straight up. The server is calculating positions for everyone and distributing to the clients.

I hate jumping puzzles (mostly because I suck at them)… Maybe one day I’ll make the effort to try. Now, I’m a completionist along with the rest of you, but there are some things that aren’t happening for me right now: It’s a video game, deal with it

(sorry to sound harsh, but really: The whining is becoming ever more toxic)

juno.1840:

I find it amazing that people defend the puzzle being a multi-player event. As if this lessens the puzzle if the other players are removed… it sounds very artificial to me.

This is a solo achievement, not a group achievement. It’s not a dungeon requiring multiple players working as a team to complete.

It not a “mostly client side” puzzle either — having multiple players in the event proves that wrong straight up. The server is calculating positions for everyone and distributing to the clients.

Mostly because the puzzle is extremely easy if it not the mess of players at the start. I personally don’t feel it’s hard at all if not for the trial and error.

juno.1840:

I find it amazing that people defend the puzzle being a multi-player event. As if this lessens the puzzle if the other players are removed… it sounds very artificial to me.

This is a solo achievement, not a group achievement. It’s not a dungeon requiring multiple players working as a team to complete.

I did it in a group with a few guildies. It was fun and we were encouraging each other. 1 guy got the hang of it faster than the rest us, so we waited in the starting area cheering him on after we fell. Things don’t have to require others present to complete the task in order to be a multiplayer event.

MissKittin.1657:

I hate jumping puzzles (mostly because I suck at them)… Maybe one day I’ll make the effort to try. Now, I’m a completionist along with the rest of you, but there are some things that aren’t happening for me right now: It’s a video game, deal with it

(sorry to sound harsh, but really: The whining is becoming ever more toxic)

People are dealing with it… doesn’t mean we cannot discuss it in a constructive manner.

There is no whining in this thread (with the exception of the “I finished it, kitten until you’re awesome like me!”).

The original topic was about the achievement on this puzzle “as-is” was a bad idea. Since then it’s morphed into another discussion of how to improve the puzzle without decreasing its difficulty.

Soon as I saw it was a jumping puzzle I left and saved myself hours of frustration!

I’m not here to play mario 64, play Dora the Explorer or rescue the princess….

i’m here to kill things and take thier stuff….

Dont give up dude you can do it. took me bout 75 or more tries to do the first half. but i learned to make the longer jumps to save time. and once i got to the first chest it took like maybe 5-10 tries to do the rest.

juno.1840:

MissKittin.1657:

I hate jumping puzzles (mostly because I suck at them)… Maybe one day I’ll make the effort to try. Now, I’m a completionist along with the rest of you, but there are some things that aren’t happening for me right now: It’s a video game, deal with it

(sorry to sound harsh, but really: The whining is becoming ever more toxic)

People are dealing with it… doesn’t mean we cannot discuss it in a constructive manner.

There is no whining in this thread (with the exception of the “I finished it, kitten until you’re awesome like me!”).

The original topic was about the achievement on this puzzle “as-is” was a bad idea. Since then it’s morphed into another discussion of how to improve the puzzle without decreasing its difficulty.

Do you know why Arenanet hasn’t said anything on this thread? It’s because stuff like this, whether or not to have something be an achievement or not, is already discussed heavily in meetings before the content is released. They have a QA team that specifically runs this new content until their eyes bleed looking for what should be achievements, what should be made easier, and what should be more difficult.

They had a team of people run this over and over and collectively that team decided that this was a hard enough task to warrant an achievement. And I’m inclined to agree with them. It’s a hard task, one worthy of an achievement. And for your argument of people that enjoyed it would have enjoyed it without the achievement, nope. Don’t speak for me. If there was no achievement I would have tried it, but probably wouldn’t have bothered after awhile.

Bottom line is that what you’re suggesting, that this not be an achievement because latency is out of your control and preventing you from completing the puzzle (something that is not confirmed, only suggested by you), simply would not work. If that was the case they would have to remove every achievement in the game that can be affected by latency which, technically speaking, could be any of them.

Goemm’s Lab jump puzzle. The windy one in Lornar’s. These are both jumping puzzles affected by latency (gusts of wind can knock you off and you have poor latency you’re going to have a harder time predicting them). They can’t simply remove achievements for difficult tasks just because latency may or may not be a factor. That’s an unrealistic suggestion and likely a good reason why Arenanet hasn’t chimed in on this topic.

This puzzle is quite difficult, regardless of latency, and deserves an achievement. I feel like I achieved something by completing it and I set aside time just to try and complete it so I feel like I earned my achievement. I’m sorry you can’t complete it, but I’m sure there are people that have poor latency that have still completed it. I’m also sure there are people that have good latency that have not completed it. Poor latency is not an excuse to remove an achievement from the game.

So much whining. The puzzle is not even hard, I beat it 2 times, once on my 80, and beat it the first time on my level 5.

As far as I can tell the achievement doesn’t give any rewards except the account points and it also doesn’t count towards the main event achievement.
Personally I still think that you can learn and progress, you don’t need to “have it”. You can learn the dancesteps how, where and when to jump. I needed a lot of attempts too and am generally not the best puzzling jumper even when I don’t have the pressure of time based or race, but after I completed it once I could get to the end consistently or after only very few attempts.
I also disagree on making it a solo instance, I like that it’s a race which is adding another level of challenge, you basically just have to ignore the others clogging your screen and if you really can’t get a camera angle that you can see yourself with you can keep your camera centered and use that as an orientation point.
This reminds me of another game where they had horseraces and only 1 person could win one of the tokens to get a new mount, there was a lot of complaints folks could never win it except if others were asleep; as soon as they made it a solo timed race it became a guaranteed win yawnfest.

@ souldonkey
If I do something only because it gives me an achievement, I’m not having enough fun doing it…

So don’t speak for me either

I couldn’t care less if it has an achievement or not.
Glad for you that it does, but I only do the things for the fun of it.

@ holska
a race by itself is not a puzzle. A race only against npc’s isn’t really entertaining.
A puzzle should be the challenge here, not the fact that others are doing the same thing as you.

It took me a few hours to finally get to the top. I never raged, rather I laughed at my missed jumps and faceplants.

Keep a good attitude. Take breaks if you need to. It is difficult but, with persistence, it can be done. You will find the other jumping puzzles in the game to be easier once you have mastered the Clock Tower!

souldonkey.9534

Do you know why Arenanet hasn’t said anything on this thread? It’s because stuff like this, whether or not to have something be an achievement or not, is already discussed heavily in meetings before the content is released. They have a QA team that specifically runs this new content until their eyes bleed looking for what should be achievements, what should be made easier, and what should be more difficult.

I’m familiar with the software industry and development process. It’s not plausible to assume ANet nails it every time without mistakes. There’s no such thing as a zero-defect process.

We could play a game about what stuff the QA Team missed in GW2 so far… there’s no value in that so let’s not.

Myself, I am making assumptions on latency — but this is a server/client game (like all MMOs). I don’t think I’m far from the mark on server-based position calculations with client-side filtering and prediction. MMOs are not twitchy as a result (without degredation from latency). For something as positionally intense as the clock tower, I think it would be an improvement if it was a client-side exercise (and a solo event as a result).

ANet response, or lack there of, doesn’t really validate or invalidate a topic on the forums…

Kimbald.2697:

@ souldonkey
If I do something only because it gives me an achievement, I’m not having enough fun doing it…

So don’t speak for me either

I couldn’t care less if it has an achievement or not.
Glad for you that it does, but I only do the things for the fun of it.

@ holska
a race by itself is not a puzzle. A race only against npc’s isn’t really entertaining.
A puzzle should be the challenge here, not the fact that others are doing the same thing as you.

I never spoke for anyone. I was simply stating that I was glad that it had an achievement and that I likely would not have completed it if it didn’t (which is kind of not true as I likely would have taken it as a personal challenge and had to finish it anyway). But yeah, I wasn’t speaking for anyone here. OP said specifically that people that enjoyed the puzzle would have enjoyed it the same if it had an achievement or not and I would not have. I would have thought the puzzle was cool without the achievement, but I would not have enjoyed it as much.

holska.4127:

As far as I can tell the achievement doesn’t give any rewards except the account points and it also doesn’t count towards the main event achievement.

You get the Mad King exotic footwear out of the chest at the top. They are BoA, though, not like the ones that have a chance of dropping out of the Labyrinth or AtM chests.

juno.1840:

souldonkey.9534

Do you know why Arenanet hasn’t said anything on this thread? It’s because stuff like this, whether or not to have something be an achievement or not, is already discussed heavily in meetings before the content is released. They have a QA team that specifically runs this new content until their eyes bleed looking for what should be achievements, what should be made easier, and what should be more difficult.

I’m familiar with the software industry and development process. It’s not plausible to assume ANet nails it every time without mistakes. There’s no such thing as a zero-defect process.

We could play a game about what stuff the QA Team missed in GW2 so far… there’s no value in that so let’s not.

Myself, I am making assumptions on latency — but this is a server/client game (like all MMOs). I don’t think I’m far from the mark on server-based position calculations with client-side filtering and prediction. MMOs are not twitchy as a result (without degredation from latency). For something as positionally intense as the clock tower, I think it would be an improvement if it was a client-side exercise (and a solo event as a result).

ANet response, or lack there of, doesn’t really validate or invalidate a topic on the forums…

No, but what invalidates this topic is the other achievements that are in game currently that are affected by latency. There are a lot, 2 of which I posted already and you ignored. If they remove the achievement from one jump puzzle that is in any way related to latency than they have to remove it on all of them that depend on latency. That wouldn’t be a good idea in the slightest. Yes this puzzle is different because there’s a time aspect on it, but even if it wasn’t temporary and you had all the time in the world you still would have the same affects from latency.

I’m sorry you haven’t been able to complete it, but a very minimal minority of players that can’t complete it due to latency only (which I’m still not convinced is your only issue here) is not enough to take the achievement out of it for the people that busted their kitten to get the achievement in the first place.

I’m not convinced latency is my only issue either tbh.

I think the achievement was bad in retrospect… I’m not advocating removing it after the fact — not at all. That would be wrong. I appologize if I stated this (expressly or implied).

So do you disagree with making the puzzle client-side only? Would that diminish your experience in any way?

@ Juno “Would that diminish your experience in any way?” Yes, because I wouldn’t have been able to do it with my guild any more.

juno.1840:

I’m not convinced latency is my only issue either tbh.

I think the achievement was bad in retrospect… I’m not advocating removing it after the fact — not at all. That would be wrong. I appologize if I stated this (expressly or implied).

So do you disagree with making the puzzle client-side only? Would that diminish your experience in any way?

Yeah, suggesting that you wanted it removed is a fallacy on my part, my bad. I do disagree with you that it should have never been in still, but worded my posts incorrectly. I understood you, but still worded it wrong for some reason. And yeah I do disagree that it should be client side only because it would take out a major factor in the difficulty for me, and most other people.

Latency aside, having that many other people in there makes it harder and I enjoyed that. Arenanet made a good decision by limiting how many people were in each run and by preventing mini pets and pets from being able to enter. I also noticed pretty much everyone ran it naked to minimize armor or shields (my character is huge with a huge shield so I pulled those off both for me, and other players) and make it easier.

I can’t tell you how many times I failed because another Norn or a Charr were blocking my view, or because someone fell really hilariously right in front of me and my fits of laughter screwed me up. The other players being there forced me to be on edge and pay more attention than I probably otherwise would have. It also forced me to try and go as fast as possible to stay in front where I could see, which had the side advantage of putting me further ahead of the green liquid frustration rising behind me.

I liked having it be persistent and definitely do prefer it that way. Running it solo, with no obstructions and only being client side would have made it extremely trivial for me and I would not have felt as challenged. It being client side would also allow players to exploit it a lot easier, which would cheapen it.