Guild Wars 2

Dustfinger.9510:

I see no reason that humanity needs to be on equal footing with the charr. There may be some nostalgia from GW1 but I think we can all agree that this is a different game with a completely different zeitgeist.

All playable races have to be on an equal footing. Having multiple playable races, including the Charr, is the exact reason why they invented a Foefire.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

For if that were true why is the no mention or acknowledgement of Devona and the Ascalon’s Chosen of history? what of them? She should have had a prominent place in human history. There should be a major statue of her in Ascalon City, with smaller ones in Fort Ranik and Ebonhawke as a heroine and Queen of Ascalon.

They (we) were outcasts, banished from Ascalon. There is no way that Adelbern could undo his decision, even with such a detail, and ultimately his stubbornness, his bitterness over, and his refusal to deal with the death of Rurik led to the Foefire. And while their actions may have saved Ascalon along with the rest of Tyria, the deeds of the Ebon Vanguard were closer to home and far more visible.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

In his lifetime of service to his people he has seen his land burn in the Searing causing instant genocide of a large fraction of his kingdom’s entire population. Then in quick succession he witnessed his son Rurik leave the kingdom. And finally he saw the impending doom of Ascalon City itself. Then the last bastion of human Ascalon of any significance.

To me in this context he did the only sane thing a King of Ascalon would do.

He would not have his people flee to Kryta and live under Krytan rule, in prosperity, working on fertile lands and not seeing their sons and daughters and bear children and grandchildren. He would rather have them scrape a living of the seared rocks of former Ascalon, under his rule, fighting against and dying to Charr in the defense of Ascalon, his Kingdom.

I suppose that might be sane for a King of Ascalon.

frans.8092:

Dustfinger.9510:

I see no reason that humanity needs to be on equal footing with the charr. There may be some nostalgia from GW1 but I think we can all agree that this is a different game with a completely different zeitgeist.

All playable races have to be on an equal footing. Having multiple playable races, including the Charr, is the exact reason why they invented a Foefire.

Frans has a point. If the devs were not aiming for equal footing then they wouldn’t have made the Sylvari (a race only 25 years old) as powerful as the other four. However, I think they might have overdone it a bit with humans. In the course of 250 years, they lost nearly all their land and the proud and noble culture of Ascalon (you know, the nation all gw1 prophecy players start out in) is reduced to little more than a memory.

Basicly: everything your hero did in GW1 to save your homeland amounted to nothing. The Charr still won. Correction: the Flame Legion won and then the other Charr Legions claimed victory over them. Same difference, in my eyes though.

Rurik died for nothing.

bullyrook.2165:

frans.8092:

Dustfinger.9510:

I see no reason that humanity needs to be on equal footing with the charr. There may be some nostalgia from GW1 but I think we can all agree that this is a different game with a completely different zeitgeist.

All playable races have to be on an equal footing. Having multiple playable races, including the Charr, is the exact reason why they invented a Foefire.

Frans has a point. If the devs were not aiming for equal footing then they wouldn’t have made the Sylvari (a race only 25 years old) as powerful as the other four. However, I think they might have overdone it a bit with humans. In the course of 250 years, they lost nearly all their land and the proud and noble culture of Ascalon (you know, the nation all gw1 prophecy players start out in) is reduced to little more than a memory.

Basicly: everything your hero did in GW1 to save your homeland amounted to nothing. The Charr still won. Correction: the Flame Legion won and then the other Charr Legions claimed victory over them. Same difference, in my eyes though.

Rurik died for nothing.

No, because once you entered Kryta you started a different fight. They NEVER said the war against the Charr was won or turning, infact you left because it was doing south.

Ascalon was not going to last, if not by being conquered by the charr, they’d die by eventual starvation and sickness.

Sylvari aren’t as powerful as other races… widespread, but hardly as powerful. They hold major presence in… two regions. And one region it’s also shared with Seraph and peacekeepers. Otherwise they have ONE zone that is “theirs” Compare to Norn, Charr, or humans… the different is bigger. Likewise the Asura only have one zone truly under their control.

In the 250 years, a nation turned isolationist (not that odd, seeing the Ministry of purity)… another conquered by an ancient threat WE unleashed (not that odd either).

Ascalon finally died out besides one fort and the settlement, and Kryta rebuilt itself into a decent nation, although it’s besieged by centaurs.

Prophecies stopped being about “saving your homeland” the moment Rurik was banished from Ascalon after Rin was destroyed.

Hell, this is like saying EVERYTHING we did in Nightfall is for nothing because Joko conquered the lands of Elonia… many, many years later.

bullyrook.2165:

Rurik died for nothing.

Ebonhawke still stands, and now prospers thanks to a new alliance with the Charr. The descendents of the people of Ascalon are living in Gendarran Fields, and were safe until the Centaur arrived. Rurik didn’t die for “nothing”, even if the future he secured for his people wasn’t a return to the past they lost. The people and legacy still live on, and that’s what’s important.

Sartharina.3542:

bullyrook.2165:

Rurik died for nothing.

Ebonhawke still stands, and now prospers thanks to a new alliance with the Charr. The descendents of the people of Ascalon are living in Gendarran Fields, and were safe until the Centaur arrived. Rurik didn’t die for “nothing”, even if the future he secured for his people wasn’t a return to the past they lost. The people and legacy still live on, and that’s what’s important.

Hell, the implication the one wiki article gave about a prince of Kryta was Ebonhawke and the Black Citadel was heading for peace on their own long before Kralk rose… until a Krytan prince butted in and played soldier (making the fields run red with blood).

Kalavier.1097:

Sartharina.3542:

bullyrook.2165:

Rurik died for nothing.

Ebonhawke still stands, and now prospers thanks to a new alliance with the Charr. The descendents of the people of Ascalon are living in Gendarran Fields, and were safe until the Centaur arrived. Rurik didn’t die for “nothing”, even if the future he secured for his people wasn’t a return to the past they lost. The people and legacy still live on, and that’s what’s important.

Hell, the implication the one wiki article gave about a prince of Kryta was Ebonhawke and the Black Citadel was heading for peace on their own long before Kralk rose… until a Krytan prince butted in and played soldier (making the fields run red with blood).

Rurik had no hand in the creation of Ebonhawk. Ironically, it was his half-crazed father that gave that order.

bullyrook.2165:

Kalavier.1097:

Sartharina.3542:

bullyrook.2165:

Rurik died for nothing.

Ebonhawke still stands, and now prospers thanks to a new alliance with the Charr. The descendents of the people of Ascalon are living in Gendarran Fields, and were safe until the Centaur arrived. Rurik didn’t die for “nothing”, even if the future he secured for his people wasn’t a return to the past they lost. The people and legacy still live on, and that’s what’s important.

Hell, the implication the one wiki article gave about a prince of Kryta was Ebonhawke and the Black Citadel was heading for peace on their own long before Kralk rose… until a Krytan prince butted in and played soldier (making the fields run red with blood).

Rurik had no hand in the creation of Ebonhawk. Ironically, it was his half-crazed father that gave that order.

And a solid chunk of his remaining citizens fled with the Ebon Vanguard on his order or on their own will.

Either way, once we left Ascalon in GW1, the story NEVER was about saving Ascalon (their homeland for proph characters) or returning there besides the single titan quest. Rurik wanted to see the people under him thrive and prosper again. THEY DID. Ascalon settlement is now one of the oldest, and largest towns in Kryta. You call his death crossing the shiverpeaks for nothing when that happened? When enough Ascalons are in Kryta not only to have Ascalon Settlement, but ALSO Rurikton?

They left Ascalon for good basically.

Also, what I was talking about. Prince Edair.

Commander Steamshroud viewed him as barely better than a mercenary. He notes that Black Citadel was forging a peace with Ebonhawke until Edair was assigned the captaincy there. After that, the southern fields ran with blood—both charr and human—just so a human boy could play with real soldiers instead of wooden ones. He goes on to speculate that those “victories on the field of battle” earned him his father’s approval…or made Beade believe that Edair would be able to defend Kryta.

After his naming as heir, word went around that Edair was looking to increase Kryta’s holdings even before he was formally crowned. He had made no real headway in Ascalon during his time in command there, so he looked instead to Lion’s Arch, hoping to prove his worth by seizing a jewel for his new crown. After the Great Krytan Blockade, however, he was convinced to let Lion’s Arch stand free.

The Charr are all about war. It defines them. Why would they offer peace to creatures they hate and once ate?

Who knows, but the fact remains that a CHARR mentions the Black Citadel was forming peace with Ebonhawke until a Krytan prince butted in.

The Charr (majority) of today are not like the Charr majority of Gw1.

bullyrook.2165:

The Charr are all about war. It defines them. Why would they offer peace to creatures they hate and once ate?

There have always been other threats to the Charr, such as the Ghosts that attack everything indiscriminately, and the Grawl, and the Dredge. The Humans proved their valor and courage to the Charr, and the Charr saw the Humans of Ebonhawke as potential allies. Also – the Iron, Ash, and Blood Legions forming an alliance with the humans also would have served as a wonderful “kitten You” to the Flame Legion (Which they also needed help fighting against). The enemy of my enemy is my friend deal going on.

And in game, where Charr and humans fight side by side, charr seem to have an attitude of “Once an Ally, Always an Ally”, at least on an individual level. It’s also possible that more progressive charr leaders saw humans as having a right to the land (But not one that completely overrode Charr rights), and wouldn’t have a serious issue sharing it fairly in coexistence (Though renegades and separatists destroy chances of that happening on a large degree due to security issues). It’s not like the Charr have a shortage of enemies to wage their wars on if they make an alliance with one of them, such as skritt, ghosts, dredge, and now Branded.

Charr, in general(bar flame legion), seem to be the type that once a war is over, it’s over.

They retook Ascalon and won that war, why continue fighting humanity when it doesn’t serve a purpose now? Hell, some of their dialogue toward the ghosts seems to point at that. “We won, you lost, STAY DEAD.”

Kalavier.1097:

Who knows, but the fact remains that a CHARR mentions the Black Citadel was forming peace with Ebonhawke until a Krytan prince butted in.

The Charr (majority) of today are not like the Charr majority of Gw1.

That a Charr mentions it in the Black Citadel only means that it’s the Charr’s point of view of the matter. The people of Ebonhawke most likely do not see it that way.

Kalavier.1097:

Charr, in general(bar flame legion), seem to be the type that once a war is over, it’s over.

They retook Ascalon and won that war, why continue fighting humanity when it doesn’t serve a purpose now? Hell, some of their dialogue toward the ghosts seems to point at that. “We won, you lost, STAY DEAD.”

The Charr leadership was of the type that saw a war as over once every enemy is dead. They planned to challenge Kryta for control of the sea and assault Lion’s Arch as late as during the time of Zhaitan’s awakening: “What do you expect, human? We’re at war!” (Sea of Sorrows, p. 75) – so much about the Charr thinking that the war was over. The war for Ascalon maybe, but not the war against Ebonhawke and Kryta.

That Krytan Prince that “butted in” merely saw things as they were – Kryta and the Charr being at war. It is mentioned in Sea of Sorrows that the Charr were sending peace feelers towards Kryta at that time, but those never arrived in Kryta thanks to Cobiah Marriner (if i remember correctly), as he captured the ship. Blame him but not that incompetent Krytan Prince.

“The charr wanted to conquer Kryta.”

“The Charr were sending out peace messages.”

Which is it? Did they want to wipe out humanity and take Kryta, or did they want to go toward peace?

Kalavier.1097:

“The charr wanted to conquer Kryta.”

“The Charr were sending out peace messages.”

Which is it? Did they want to wipe out humanity and take Kryta, or did they want to go toward peace?

Well what do you think it is? The Charr have been waging war against humanity for 1250 years, that does not exactly qualify them as wanting peace during that time.

They wanted to conquer Kryta at the time of Zhaitan’s awakening, apparently the failure of their scout ship to return made them abandon that plan.

Years later they send a ship with relics from Ascalon to Krya which gets intercepted by pirates and never makes it to Kryta, while all the time till a few years ago the Charr try to conquer Ebonhawke, going on with the war in Ascalon.

Compare one failed attempt at non-hostile contact to 1250 years of warfare and answer your questions yourself.

What i see all too often is attempts to turn the Charr into something which they aren’t, a peaceful species, and put all the blame on humanity. It doesn’t change the nature of the Charr, they live for conflict and war. The current peace negotiations were initiated not by them, and they entered them only because they had overdone it with making enemies.

I put no blame on humanity, nor do I say the Charr are peaceful.

I however understand the fact of times change, and people change with it. The intro cutscene (at least iron legion) puts the viewpoint clearly at “The blood debt humanity owed us over ascalon is paid and over.”

Leaderships change. Was the imperator of the Iron legion the same back then as there is now?

Charr can live peacefully with humans. I don’t see them returning to a war with humans even after the dragons die, unless MAJOR leadership change happens for either side.

I think the mistake is assuming the Charr can’t live without a war.

Bazompora.2635:

I hate everything about Charr, for they are … Charr. And I would like to see them go extinct before all others races.
Yet, I don’t see any good reason to go with claiming Ascalon for Divinity’s Reach.

Ascalon still has its rightul claimants: the Ghosts of Ascalon, who have been there for their whole existence.

Too bad for you, Human is the most nearly extinct race of GW2 :p

Kalavier.1097:

I think the mistake is assuming the Charr can’t live without a war.

Well, they kinda do. As a militaristic society, where the most respected and admired members of society are the military, they need an enemy to fight. Currently, these enemies are the Foefire ghosts, the Flame Legion, and the Elder Dragons and their minions.

If/when those enemies are defeated, the Legions will need a new foe to conquer. Of course, it’s also entirely possible that by the time that happens, the Charr as a society will have evolved so they are no longer a strictly militant society, channelling their innate bloodlust and violence into more socially acceptable means of competition such as sports and gladiatorial combat.

frans.8092:

All playable races have to be on an equal footing. Having multiple playable races, including the Charr, is the exact reason why they invented a Foefire.

They aren’t on equal footing. But they are on comparable footing. A-net confirmed that an entire legion of charr could beat the norn and no one but the asura controle the gates. All races aren’t equal. But they all also have something to offer.

bullyrook.2165:

Frans has a point. If the devs were not aiming for equal footing then they wouldn’t have made the Sylvari (a race only 25 years old) as powerful as the other four. However, I think they might have overdone it a bit with humans. In the course of 250 years, they lost nearly all their land and the proud and noble culture of Ascalon (you know, the nation all gw1 prophecy players start out in) is reduced to little more than a memory.

Basicly: everything your hero did in GW1 to save your homeland amounted to nothing. The Charr still won. Correction: the Flame Legion won and then the other Charr Legions claimed victory over them. Same difference, in my eyes though.

Rurik died for nothing.

They sylvari aren’t as powerful as every one else. but they are still comparable. In fact, a-net has said that they have the potential to be the most powerful some day. Confirming that total equality is not the goal.

Zaxares.5419:

Well, they kinda do. As a militaristic society, where the most respected and admired members of society are the military, they need an enemy to fight. Currently, these enemies are the Foefire ghosts, the Flame Legion, and the Elder Dragons and their minions.

If/when those enemies are defeated, the Legions will need a new foe to conquer. Of course, it’s also entirely possible that by the time that happens, the Charr as a society will have evolved so they are no longer a strictly militant society, channelling their innate bloodlust and violence into more socially acceptable means of competition such as sports and gladiatorial combat.

The Ecology describes a time like this when the charr simply turn to infighting and power mongering. And we know that any Khan-ur has to continue to prove by force that he is worthy to rule. So they can still maintain their aggressive nature without outward expansion or the need for a strong desperate defense. So competition seems absolutely possible. We see it happen naturally in Diessa Plateau over at Butchers yard.

Zaxares.5419:

Kalavier.1097:

I think the mistake is assuming the Charr can’t live without a war.

Well, they kinda do. As a militaristic society, where the most respected and admired members of society are the military, they need an enemy to fight. Currently, these enemies are the Foefire ghosts, the Flame Legion, and the Elder Dragons and their minions.

If/when those enemies are defeated, the Legions will need a new foe to conquer. Of course, it’s also entirely possible that by the time that happens, the Charr as a society will have evolved so they are no longer a strictly militant society, channelling their innate bloodlust and violence into more socially acceptable means of competition such as sports and gladiatorial combat.

There will always be more foes to conquer, and by the time they overcome the Ghosts, Branded, and Flame Legion, it’s possible their alliance with the humans of Ascalon is so complete (Along with quite a bit of cultural mingling, especially around the borders) that it would be as unthinkable to make war against Ebonhawke as it would be for the Iron Legion to make war against the Sentinels.

Sartharina.3542:

There will always be more foes to conquer, and by the time they overcome the Ghosts, Branded, and Flame Legion, it’s possible their alliance with the humans of Ascalon is so complete (Along with quite a bit of cultural mingling, especially around the borders) that it would be as unthinkable to make war against Ebonhawke as it would be for the Iron Legion to make war against the Sentinels.

I expect it’d be a matter of finding some other way to channel the aggression and humanity either getting over the whole Ascalon matter (hah) or just deciding to pick it back up if the charr leave it for whatever reason.

Honestly, I don’t see the enemies listed there (Branded, Foefire ghosts, renegade charr) being particularly quick to be conquered. I’d say right about the time Dhuum is slain forever . . .

Since It’s now agreed that the five races are not equal and that teir natural characteristic remain very much intact if only temporarily hidden beneath the surface for the sake of playing nice while there are Elder Dragons to fight…. what happens after?

How does Humanity keep Kryta and Ebonhawke in Tyria to say nothing for the moment about the other continents? It seems to be arenanet has done everything possible to ensure that not only are the humans are militarily weak and disorganised – they will remain that way or die.

For humanity to recover and ensure prosperity and security in need to:
- Neutralise the Centaurs as a threat to the daily lives of its citizens.
- Re-take full and effective control of its main commercial and trade center – Lion’s Arch.
- Ensure the continual security of The Stronghold of Ebonhawke and its territories.
- Merge the Seraph and the Lionguard into a single military organisation.
- Have the Shining Blade and the Seraph select they members from the best of the Lionguard – since both continue to serve as the elite of the Krytan military.
– The Ebon Vanguard remain and continue to serve Human Ascalon – which is effectively Ebonhawke for now….

Kulvar.1239:

Bazompora.2635:

I hate everything about Charr, for they are … Charr. And I would like to see them go extinct before all others races.
Yet, I don’t see any good reason to go with claiming Ascalon for Divinity’s Reach.

Ascalon still has its rightul claimants: the Ghosts of Ascalon, who have been there for their whole existence.

Too bad for you, Human is the most nearly extinct race of GW2 :p

Yes that’s what the intro says. And yet, the human empire/population is as big as that of all the other races (In Tyria). And don’t forget we also still have Cantha. Not so extinct as Anet would have us believe.

I love how people think humanity has so little left for population.

Cantha is there, and Elona is there. True, the second is under the control of Joko, but the populace is still alive. However, that’s out of character information. A human minister today can’t assume those nations are still out there or active due to no contact.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Since It’s now agreed that the five races are not equal and that teir natural characteristic remain very much intact if only temporarily hidden beneath the surface for the sake of playing nice while there are Elder Dragons to fight…. what happens after?

How does Humanity keep Kryta and Ebonhawke in Tyria to say nothing for the moment about the other continents? It seems to be arenanet has done everything possible to ensure that not only are the humans are militarily weak and disorganised – they will remain that way or die.

For humanity to recover and ensure prosperity and security in need to:
- Neutralise the Centaurs as a threat to the daily lives of its citizens.
- Re-take full and effective control of its main commercial and trade center – Lion’s Arch.
- Ensure the continual security of The Stronghold of Ebonhawke and its territories.
- Merge the Seraph and the Lionguard into a single military organisation.
- Have the Shining Blade and the Seraph select they members from the best of the Lionguard – since both continue to serve as the elite of the Krytan military.
– The Ebon Vanguard remain and continue to serve Human Ascalon – which is effectively Ebonhawke for now….

A: By the time all the dragons are dealt with, the Charr will likely be behind wanting to conqure the rest of humanity, which they basically are at right now. If the Klingons, who are more violent, can be at peace with the federation in star trek, I think the Charr can pull it off too.

1: Valid point. Centaurs are the main threat bar dragons toward Kryta.
2: No, Kryta gave LA freedom to operate independently, retaking it would set everybody else off and against humanity.
3: True.
4: Why? LA is not ruled by Kryta, and is a multi racial group. Even then they have different focuses.
5: see above.
6: which is happening anyway.

Human’s aren’t militarily weak and disorganized. They do have their hands full with the centaurs however.

Kalavier.1097:

1: Valid point. Centaurs are the main threat bar dragons toward Kryta.
2: No, Kryta gave LA freedom to operate independently, retaking it would set everybody else off and against humanity.
3: True.
4: Why? LA is not ruled by Kryta, and is a multi racial group. Even then they have different focuses.
5: see above.
6: which is happening anyway.

Human’s aren’t militarily weak and disorganized. They do have their hands full with the centaurs however.

I strongly beg to differ and your last line confirms my point. An organised military establishment would guarantee among other things – the neutralisation of the Centaur threat – permanently.

The Krytan crown did not voluntarily and of its own accord give the peoples it’s a free hand to govern themselves. It was forced to agree because at the time it was military weak. And It’s still is weak, as per the events thus far.

Direct Krytan control of Lion’s Arch does not mean that the operation of commercial activities will be in any way restricted or adversely affected. It will mean that the taxation funds will not have a completely commercial focus. Significant funds would now go to assist the whole of Kryta – NOT just the lifestyles of the commercial magnates of the port. Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

These interest(s) of course will including funding the Krytan military and thus exterminating the Centaurs from Krytan lands – as well as limiting bandit activity.

War is never so cleanly won.

Charr case in point, they have been fighting the flame legion for how long? And they have a heavily organized military force.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

This is all dependant on how the politics of LA have intermingeled with other nations.

Lion’s Arch is not officially part of Kryta, however. It is an independent city state. Back during GW1, it was (and it was even the seat of Krytan royalty), but following Zhaitan’s rise and the destruction of the old Lion’s Arch, it was repopulated by people who held no loyalty to Kryta.

Nicholas is right about one thing though. Control of Lion’s Arch is important insofar as it is a central transit hub for trade and travellers. However, the move of the Asura gates to Vigil Keep proves that the Asura can quickly move this hub to a different location if needed. As such, Lion’s Arch itself is mostly irrelevant apart from its role as a port (which is admittedly not a minor thing). If Kryta were to take over Lion’s Arch, I suspect that traders would just move to a new central trading hub (if Krytan taxes on trade proved unfavorable), and that new location would end up being the new “melting pot” city. (I vote for the Labyrinthine Cliffs! )

Dustfinger.9510:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

This is all dependant on how the politics of LA have intermingeled with other nations.

Which would probably be a bit. The Captains council is entirely neutral, which makes it such a great trading center and cultural diffusion.

Also, that’s anothe reason Krytan crown controlling LA may not work. Because the rules would change and the city is used to one that may be a bit more open then DR rules. Ministry probably wouldn’t know exactly to handle it.

And given how they debate on troop deployments, Lionguard would only ADD to that problem as while they have more forces, they also have more places to defend. Better to let the Lionguard and Captain’s council be free and handle their own issues.

+ the fact the havens are technically protected from Centaur raids due to some treaty LA and the centuars have. La going under Kryta control may void that, making trade routes a lot more dangerous.

Dustfinger.9510:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

This is all dependant on how the politics of LA have intermingeled with other nations.

Your opinion assumes that Lion’s Arch is international territory. It is not. It is a domestic situation and although foreign interests have current commercial interest within Lion’s Arch their governments do NOT have political jurisdiction.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dustfinger.9510:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

This is all dependant on how the politics of LA have intermingeled with other nations.

Your opinion assumes that Lion’s Arch is international territory. It is not. It is a domestic situation and although foreign interests have current commercial interest within Lion’s Arch their governments do NOT have political jurisdiction.

In the setting the borders are much more fluid and not hard lines for the most part.

Also, yeah, LA is an independent city state with it’s own treaties and laws. Many of those may be voided in Kryta took over, perhaps with dangerous results (Such as trade routes).

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Since It’s now agreed that the five races are not equal and that teir natural characteristic remain very much intact if only temporarily hidden beneath the surface for the sake of playing nice while there are Elder Dragons to fight…. what happens after?

How does Humanity keep Kryta and Ebonhawke in Tyria to say nothing for the moment about the other continents? It seems to be arenanet has done everything possible to ensure that not only are the humans are militarily weak and disorganised – they will remain that way or die.

For humanity to recover and ensure prosperity and security in need to:
- Neutralise the Centaurs as a threat to the daily lives of its citizens.
- Re-take full and effective control of its main commercial and trade center – Lion’s Arch.
- Ensure the continual security of The Stronghold of Ebonhawke and its territories.
- Merge the Seraph and the Lionguard into a single military organisation.
- Have the Shining Blade and the Seraph select they members from the best of the Lionguard – since both continue to serve as the elite of the Krytan military.
– The Ebon Vanguard remain and continue to serve Human Ascalon – which is effectively Ebonhawke for now….

Right now, the Charr are in a strong position to remain allies with Ebonhawke. The divisions will be drawn along political, not racial, lines.

If the “Old” Ascalonians from Kryta try to re-invade Ascalon to take back their homeland, they might find themselves against determined resistance not only from the Charr, but also the people of Ebonhawke who have invested too much into their alliance with the Charr to risk it over a foreign invasion – The Krytanized former Ascalonians aren’t the ones who’s actual homes and lifestyles would be under assault if the Charr are forced to turn on humans.

That said, Ascalon will forever be a ball of conflict as long as the Charr remain. As long as the humans and Charr have a common enemy, there will be ‘peace’ between them – but, once they run out of common enemies, there will be a segment of Charr culture that will splinter from the alliance with demands of human subjugation or control of lands currently under treaty-protected control by humans or amicably shared between the races. However, another sizeable chunk of Charr society will choose to defend and fight alongside the humans that have stood so valiantly with them against the threats of the past, uniting with the humans with this Charr Splinter as a common enemy. However, there will probably also be Humans who see that the violence is caused by Charr being Charr, and seek to eradicate/drive the Charr from the land so there can be permanent peace. However, in this case, there will also be humans to line up and defend the Charr who have stood and fought alongside them so valiantly against the threats of the past, and continue to fight and die defending them against the Renegade Charr. They’re also aware that siding with these Separatists will give the Renegade and Loyalist Charr both a common enemy against humans as a whole – and by this time, the Charr would be strong enough from the years of peace that Ebonhawke wouldn’t survive. The Renegade/Treaty/Separatist conflict is now a permanent part of Ascalon’s political landscape.

In the words of our lord and savior Treesus, “This won’t end well.”

Zaxares.5419:

Lion’s Arch is not officially part of Kryta, however. It is an independent city state. Back during GW1, it was (and it was even the seat of Krytan royalty), but following Zhaitan’s rise and the destruction of the old Lion’s Arch, it was repopulated by people who held no loyalty to Kryta.

Nicholas is right about one thing though. Control of Lion’s Arch is important insofar as it is a central transit hub for trade and travellers. However, the move of the Asura gates to Vigil Keep proves that the Asura can quickly move this hub to a different location if needed. As such, Lion’s Arch itself is mostly irrelevant apart from its role as a port (which is admittedly not a minor thing). If Kryta were to take over Lion’s Arch, I suspect that traders would just move to a new central trading hub (if Krytan taxes on trade proved unfavorable), and that new location would end up being the new “melting pot” city. (I vote for the Labyrinthine Cliffs! )

Seriously? LA is NOT an independent state to the point that is a separate country in its own right. Read my recent posts and more importantly read the official wiki.

Also the operation and use of the Asura Gates is not governed by the Asurans. The use of the Gates for private and commercial use would depend on the rules and regulations of that country while being operationally governed by the city council on a local level. The Crown would not disrupt legal commercial activity unless it impedes the security of Kryta.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Your opinion assumes that Lion’s Arch is international territory. It is not. It is a domestic situation and although foreign interests have current commercial interest within Lion’s Arch their governments do NOT have political jurisdiction.

My opinion does not assume that LA is international territory. it simply acknowleges the possibility that other nations have a vested interest in LA’s affairs. meaning that the affairs of LA may well be of international interest.

edit: I don’t see how kryta being strong armed into agreeing that LA is independent somehow invalidates LA’s independence. Otherwise, The USA is still British territory. Along with the Zulu nations and India.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Zaxares.5419:

Lion’s Arch is not officially part of Kryta, however. It is an independent city state. Back during GW1, it was (and it was even the seat of Krytan royalty), but following Zhaitan’s rise and the destruction of the old Lion’s Arch, it was repopulated by people who held no loyalty to Kryta.

Nicholas is right about one thing though. Control of Lion’s Arch is important insofar as it is a central transit hub for trade and travellers. However, the move of the Asura gates to Vigil Keep proves that the Asura can quickly move this hub to a different location if needed. As such, Lion’s Arch itself is mostly irrelevant apart from its role as a port (which is admittedly not a minor thing). If Kryta were to take over Lion’s Arch, I suspect that traders would just move to a new central trading hub (if Krytan taxes on trade proved unfavorable), and that new location would end up being the new “melting pot” city. (I vote for the Labyrinthine Cliffs! )

Seriously? LA is NOT an independent state to the point that is a separate country in its own right. Read my recent posts and more importantly read the official wiki.

Also the operation and use of the Asura Gates is not governed by the Asurans. The use of the Gates for private and commercial use would depend on the rules and regulations of that country while being operationally governed by the city council on a local level. The Crown would not disrupt legal commercial activity unless it impedes the security of Kryta.

From the official wiki:

“Lion’s Arch owed no allegiance to any race or nation, but stood on its own – and did so by virtue of its active navy, its financial strength, and the intelligence and cunning of its leaders.”

“a settlement formed that owed no allegiance to Kryta.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lions_Arch

^ That. The official wiki itself states that Lion’s Arch is not politically governed by Kryta, nor does it have any official allegiance to Queen Jennah. It can best be compared to Vatican City, which is located in Italy geographically, yet is a functionally independent city-state.

Also, I’m sure others can point to the exact documentation, but the Asura hold exclusive rights to the operation and maintenance of the gates, charging fees for any traffic passing through it. Nothing stops the nations the gates are located in from setting up additional customs and border protection around these gates (and indeed, the Black Citadel shows that the Charr have measures in place in case the gate were to ever be used for a hostile attack), but as far as the Asura are concerned, they just keep the gates running and collect fees. What happens next to travellers as they exit the gate is of no concern to them, and they stay out of it; this neutrality is how they built their gates in every single nation even when Kryta and the Charr were still at war.

The Charr of the Black Citadel, Norn of the Shiverpeaks, and and Asura of the Metrica Province all have strong interest in maintaining Lion’s Arch’s neutrality.

I wouldn’t compare the Vatican to Lion’s Arch – the former is too dependent on the ‘host country’ for critical services and infrastructure.

Lion’s Arch is not part of Kryta, and if Kryta or any of its militaries tried to exert authority on Lion’s Arch, the Lionguard would respond violently, and call in assistance from every faction they have alliances with that benefit from the neutral position of Lion’s Arch, including the Order of Whispers, Durmand Priory, The Vigil, the Charr High Legions of Ascalon, the Asura of Rata Sum, Norn of Hoelbrak, Sylvari of the Grove, and too many pirate organizations to even begin to count.

If a nation tries to demand rights/customs over the Asura gates that the Asura of Rata Sum do not agree to, either the gate will be shut down, or Asura will call in allies to enforce their neutrality on the matter (Depending on the severity of the demands).

In case people have forgotten Scarlet Briar destroyed/level most of the infrastructure of Lion’s Arch. The Lionguard owe their allegiance not to Lion’s Arch from where it got its name from but to the Crown of Kryta. As in the Lionguard are the standard soldiers of the modern Krytan military – with the Seraph, The Shining Blade and the Ministry Guards on top.

And now since the Captain’s Council is now not able to finance their wages …. . Only the Crown has the monies to pay their wages and supply them – all thanks to Scarlet Briar.

As for the Asura Gates, while the Asura are due they fees etc. The nations of Tyria cannot allow free and unlimited use of them. Think about it – criminals/bandits could use the Asura Gates to escape the law.

And so claiming neutrality and allowing free and unlimited use just cannot happen and thus cannot be canon or remain as such. The Asuran would of course see the sense of this and agree that the use of their Gates be within the direct control of the Regional governments of the day, since all cherish their own sovereignty and security & safety of their respective citizens.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

In case people have forgotten Scarlet Briar destroyed/level most of the infrastructure of Lion’s Arch. The Lionguard owe their allegiance not to Lion’s Arch from where it got its name from but to the Crown of Kryta. As in the Lionguard are the standard soldiers of the modern Krytan military – with the Seraph, The Shining Blade and the Ministry Guards on top.

And now since the Captain’s Council is now not able to finance their wages …. . Only the Crown has the monies to pay their wages and supply them – all thanks to Scarlet Briar.

As for the Asura Gates, while the Asura are due they fees etc. The nations of Tyria cannot allow free and unlimited use of them. Think about it – criminals/bandits could use the Asura Gates to escape the law.

And so claiming neutrality and allowing free and unlimited use just cannot happen and thus cannot be canon or remain as such. The Asuran would of course see the sense of this and agree that the use of their Gates be within the direct control of the Regional governments of the day, since all cherish their own sovereignty and security & safety of their respective citizens.

So we should expect a swift invasion by Kryta in the near future?

Except the other nations that do have a vested interest in LA would probab;ly have something to say about that.

Lionsgaurd are the protectors of LA and to a lesser extent Tyria. They have no current specific ties to Kryta. Any other nation with an interest in keeping LA free might also see the wisdom in helping to fund them.

“The Lionguard is a military group that once acted as the defenders of Kryta. Their power was usurped 250 years ago by the White Mantle. Since the end of the War in Kryta, they were then mostly replaced by the Seraph. Though their role is now less official, they still act as protectors to the people of Lion’s Arch, and to a lesser extent, Tyria. They can be seen as the defenders of the merchants of Lion’s Arch, and are a major authority in the pirate-riddled town. Magnus the Bloody Handed is head of the Lionguard and an enforcer of authority in the city of Lion’s Arch.” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lionguard

The Lionguard do not own any loyalty to Kryta anymore – In case you didn’t notice, humans make up a (admittedly sizable) minority of the soldiers and commanders in the guard, with Norn and Charr filling in significant numbers and with a few token Asura and Sylvari as well.

The asura can allow local governments to put additional restrictions on the gates as they see fit for personal security, but cannot make demands on how the gates are run or undermine Asuran restrictions.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

In case people have forgotten Scarlet Briar destroyed/level most of the infrastructure of Lion’s Arch. The Lionguard owe their allegiance not to Lion’s Arch from where it got its name from but to the Crown of Kryta. As in the Lionguard are the standard soldiers of the modern Krytan military – with the Seraph, The Shining Blade and the Ministry Guards on top.

And now since the Captain’s Council is now not able to finance their wages …. . Only the Crown has the monies to pay their wages and supply them – all thanks to Scarlet Briar.

As for the Asura Gates, while the Asura are due they fees etc. The nations of Tyria cannot allow free and unlimited use of them. Think about it – criminals/bandits could use the Asura Gates to escape the law.

And so claiming neutrality and allowing free and unlimited use just cannot happen and thus cannot be canon or remain as such. The Asuran would of course see the sense of this and agree that the use of their Gates be within the direct control of the Regional governments of the day, since all cherish their own sovereignty and security & safety of their respective citizens.

The Lionguard are not involved with the modern Krytan military, at all. They acted more like police even back in GW1, and likely just maintained that role post Seraph forming. They hold loyality to LA, not the crown.

Also, Captain’s council can’t finance their wages? Says who? There is a hefty pile of gold left in the bank that they are guarding, and they get trade flowing from the havens and port again, and the money flows again. Add that to the Queen holding donations for LA, and the bazaar of the four winds also giving money and supplies to LA… Also with the LA gates rebuilt and active again…

Asura gate use isn’t free, especially for cargo moving. It’s free for players because of game mechanics.

I love you man, you seem to twist it so all the other races would see the ‘logic and sense’ and agree to just give humanity more power regardless of what it means. The Asura would see they have a contract/paid gates with the captains council. Kryta doesn’t. Unless Kryta wants to dump the gold to pay for the gates again(depending on the contract). Likewise, again, LA has several treaties and trade agreements. the Kryta ministry may not agree with some, or the other side may not like the ministers. Those would harm the city, and possibly other trade. Such as the Centaurs agreeing to leave the havens alone.

Which havens are you referring to? all towns and villages in Kryta are under Krytan Crown control. And obviously patrolled by the Lionguard. As mention and stated before the gold guarded by the Lionguard are Krytan monies – as in Queen Jennah’s.

There is no way that Lion Arch control and settlements outside of the metropolitan area of the port. It clear that Arenanet has confused their own Lore. Seriously are you saying that Queen Jennah only rules Divinity’s Reach and its hinterlands (Queensdale etc) only? and that LA control the rest of Kryta?

Seriously?

This is my confusion even with GW2 – Krytan Lore. The current political status quo makes no sense at all. The Lionguard traditionally form the bulk of the military of the Krytan Crown. They protect the interest of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta – and that means Queen Jennah.

To have them under the control of a LA not controlled by the Crown is the height of Lunacy and yet another clear example of an undeniable anti-human bias.

Since with direct and full control of Lion’s Arch the Krytan Crown can once again be a beacon of human prosperity and strength.

The Lionguard are just protectors in general, they have bases across the map – mostly protecting trading routes, not Kryta.

^ That.

The Lionguard do not form the bulk of the krytan military. They do not protect the crown. They used to.

They were replaced by the Seraph. They continued their duties in LA until LA broke from the crown. The Lionguard broke with them. That is why the Lionguard are lead by a norn rather than a human.

Are you saying that Queen Jenna owns Snowden Drifts and Lornar’s Pass in the Shiverpeaks and Diessa Plateau of Ascalon (Among other places far outside Kryta), where there are ALSO Lionguard stationed?

Queen Jenna’s jurisdiction includes Queensdale,Kessex Hills, Gendarran Fields, Harathi Hinterlands (Though that’s mostly Centaur), and Fields of Ruin (Aside from a few Sentinel holdings around the Brand)

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

This is my confusion even with GW2 – Krytan Lore. The current political status quo makes no sense at all. The Lionguard traditionally form the bulk of the military of the Krytan Crown. They protect the interest of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta – and that means Queen Jennah.

Except after the War in Kryta the Shining Blade were named special protectors to the Queen. This can be read here

Princess Salma: “We thank the Lionguard for their unwavering support of the people of Kryta. They shall continue, under the command of Firstwatch Sergio, in service to the city of Lion’s Arch.”
Princess Salma: “We thank the Shining Blade. They have been our truest companions and have proved themselves to be the true defenders of Kryta.”
Princess Salma: “Guided now by our loyal servant Livia, the Shining Blade will continue to serve Kryta, not as a rebel group nor as a militia, nor even as an army, but shall henceforth serve as the royal guard for all kings and queens of Kryta.”
Princess Salma: “Most of all, we thank the people of Kryta, who have endured so much with such great dignity. All across Tyria, free people sing the praises of the common Krytan, and I join them in their chorus.”
Princess Salma: “This conflict has been a difficult one, pitting brother against brother, and neighbor against neighbor. Not all who fought against us were motivated by evil, for some were deceived by the lies or cowed by the threats of the White Mantle.”
Princess Salma: “In the spirit of the new, reborn Kryta, it is time to put those dark days behind us. Now is the time for rebuilding, not retribution. Now is the time for forgiveness, not vengeance. Let us all face this new era together, without hate in our hearts.”
Princess Salma: “In that spirit, we hereby announce the formation of a new army for the defense of the whole of Kryta and for all humans who call Kryta their home.”
Princess Salma: “Honoring the winged goddess who protected us in our final battle against the fiends who had usurped our kingdom, this new group will be called the Seraph, and the valiant Bartholos shall be their commander.”
Princess Salma: “In this new army, common citizens and former members of the White Mantle and Shining Blade will serve side-by-side. You will know the Seraph by the wings that adorn their helms and shields, and by their resolute defense of our land. They shall be the protectors of Kryta.”

So, the lore was set in motion when the civil war ended and the White Mantle was broken.

And notably, the Shining Blade also doesn’t serve the Queen . . . they serve the throne. There is a distinction there which should not be lost.

Let’s be clear I never claimed that any institution of Kryta serve any individual at a personal level. I do however wish for clarity and uniformity in GW2-Krytan Lore. The “Crown” and “The Throne” are the same terms in that they are both used to specifically say that the defenders of Kryta server whoever rightfully holds the right to rule Kryta and serve as its monarch. As of the current events in Kryta that resides in the personage of Queen Jennah.

Thus all defenders of human Kryta owe their allegiance to her ( with the exception of the the Captain’s Council). It should however be noted that the Captain’s Council is only tolerated by the Crown and is NOT accepted as legal entity. Since the founding and establishment of city state was made possible by a series of opportunistic circumstances – which included the use of significant Krytan funds from a sunken naval vessel – Salma’s Grace (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cobiah_Marriner). The Crown of Kryta as a result would rightful see the Captain’s Council as a rogue institution.

Only the clear and present danger of the Elder Dragon’s is preventing the Crown’s moving to recover its stolen possession – Lion’s Arch.

GW2 krytan lore is pretty clear. The official wiki stated that LA is independent of Kryta. There is no confusion beyond ignoring the current lore. The lionsguard are no longer defenders of Kryta.

Lions Guard no longer server the Throne or the Crown. When the current members of the Lions Guard joined, they did so with the full understanding that they were not under the jurisdiction of Kryta. They are run by a norn, after all. Any arguments the Crown could have had against LA being it’s own institution are were rendered moot when they agreed to Kryta’s independence. It doesn’t matter that Kryta was pressured into it as we see in RL how England has been pressured in losing a giant empire throughout history.

Nicholas, you continue to posit how YOU think it should be seen. Rather than how it actually is seen. Kryta does not view Lions Arch in that way, there is absolutely NOTHING in game to suggest any hostility between Kryta, the Krytan Crown, or the Krytan people and Lions Arch…

The Lions Council are NOT seen as a rogue institution.

In fact Queen Jennah opened up the Queens Pavilion again as a way of earning money towards the rebuilding of Lions Arch. That’s a pretty nice gesture. If she disliked Lions Arch she would just assert her right to rule over it as Krytan Land and take over – since LA is kind of dead at the moment. In stead she is working alongisde the council to rebuild it. LA is beneficial to all of the races, the fact that it is multi-racial and run by a council makes it a great ally for all of the major capitals. Jennah isn’t an idiot.