Guild Wars 2

The why Lore is written makes no sense in reality. The funding she is providing should be part of a situation where Kryta takes over the wreckage of LA and take all gold from the site as hers. Since it is.

All the gold earned can be traced back to facilitated by the Salma’s Grace gold thus its Kryta’s gold NOT the Captain’s Council. Lion’s Arch by right never left Krytan hands.

The Crown like’s Lion’s Arch very much since it is the jewel in the crown of Human Krytan prosperity. The wealth of Lion’s Arch belongs to Kryta alone. This does not mean that it can’t continue to be a multi-racial center of trade. It just means that it is administered and taxed on behalf of the Crown – for the benefit of the citizens of the city and Kryta.

The way Jennah is currently written – is to me is illogical. She is not acting like a monarch. She should want to serve her country and show leadership. That means making the tough calls. That means taking back Lion’s Arch by all means available to Kryta – this includes the full might of all of the Lionguard, the Seraph, the Shining Blade to arrest the Captain’s Council and charge them with treason and crimes against the state of Kryta.

How could she use the Lionguard? she doesn’t controle them.

As it is, we have RL parallels that reflect the situation in Tyria. The USA used to belong to England. We fought a war to be free and since then have been pretty strong allies. To the point of helping them fight the first world war when we had no stake in the outcome.

Nicholas, you are the only one who see’s it as illogical.
Everyone else in this forum, and Arenanet, thinks that the way it is now is logical. The majority is against you.

Arrests the captains Council? For the crime of doing exactly what Kryta told them they could do 3 generation ago? That is as illogical as it gets. especially in the midst of this world ending dragon snafoo.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Nicholas, you are the only one who see’s it as illogical.
Everyone else in this forum, and Arenanet, thinks that the way it is now is logical. The majority is against you.

I think that Jennah should have used the opportunity to gain control of Lion’s Arch, given that the “treaty” of the times of Cobiah Marriner was forced and was made with pirates who, at the time, had preyed on krytan ships and therefore was never “legal” to begin with. It was a plot device to make LA independent and lacked any form of logic in its existence anyway.

But we are all nice to each other now and friends and such, and Jennah is a weak ruler.

Frosch.7809:

But we are all nice to each other now and friends and such, and Jennah is a weak ruler.

I wouldn’t say that. I’d say she’s a ruler having significant issues getting what she wants done, to be done. She has opposition from the Ministry in the form of a small group who want power instead of her, she has people almost constantly under attack somewhere from either centaurs or ‘bandits’, and any move she makes to try to stabilize peace somewhere winds up blowing up in her face.

The human race right now doesn’t exactly need another front to start a war or even disagreements (with the Lionguard). They need less fronts to be fighting on, not more. Unfortunately, I think we’ll be seeing something off to the west stirring once there’s another proper expedition into the Brisban Wildlands.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Which havens are you referring to? all towns and villages in Kryta are under Krytan Crown control. And obviously patrolled by the Lionguard. As mention and stated before the gold guarded by the Lionguard are Krytan monies – as in Queen Jennah’s.

There is no way that Lion Arch control and settlements outside of the metropolitan area of the port. It clear that Arenanet has confused their own Lore. Seriously are you saying that Queen Jennah only rules Divinity’s Reach and its hinterlands (Queensdale etc) only? and that LA control the rest of Kryta?

Seriously?

This is my confusion even with GW2 – Krytan Lore. The current political status quo makes no sense at all. The Lionguard traditionally form the bulk of the military of the Krytan Crown. They protect the interest of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta – and that means Queen Jennah.

To have them under the control of a LA not controlled by the Crown is the height of Lunacy and yet another clear example of an undeniable anti-human bias.

Since with direct and full control of Lion’s Arch the Krytan Crown can once again be a beacon of human prosperity and strength.

I cannot believe you actually play the game and don’t understand the difference between a lionguard Haven and a village.

LA controls LA… and the havens. Nothing else. Lionguard don’t patrol any towns actually at all in GW2. My post said LA controls the havens and nothing else. The rest of Krytan (human held) is under the queen.

Also, the dalogue from GW beyond, explicitly states the Lionguard’s loyality from that point on was to LA, and they’d serve the people. basically, at that point they stopped being Kryta military and more like the Lion’s Arch militia and police.

So no, the Lionguard don’t traditionally form the bulk of the military. Ever since the white mantle took power (and later fell), they weren’t involved at all.

The gold in the LA bank? comes from all parts of the world.

all the retcon bullkitten after GW1 making charr into decent guys and kryta abandoning lion’s arch obviously precludes this plotline from ever happening, but any GW1 veteran who remembers the glory of ascalon would jump at the chance. this would be a kitten fight full of nostalgia and glory. hell yeah the humans of kryta should fight for ascalon, it would a fascinating plotline compared to fighting faceless forces of nature (dragons).

Thuggernaut.1250:

all the retcon bullkitten after GW1 making charr into decent guys and kryta abandoning lion’s arch obviously precludes this plotline from ever happening, but any GW1 veteran who remembers the glory of ascalon would jump at the chance. this would be a kitten fight full of nostalgia and glory. hell yeah the humans of kryta should fight for ascalon, it would a fascinating plotline compared to fighting faceless forces of nature (dragons).

There are plenty of GW1 veterans who wouldn’t. We can separate our GW1 characters from our GW2 characters.

Thuggernaut.1250:

all the retcon bullkitten after GW1 making charr into decent guys and kryta abandoning lion’s arch obviously precludes this plotline from ever happening, but any GW1 veteran who remembers the glory of ascalon would jump at the chance. this would be a kitten fight full of nostalgia and glory. hell yeah the humans of kryta should fight for ascalon, it would a fascinating plotline compared to fighting faceless forces of nature (dragons).

Ascalon held little spotlight in GW1. Hell, once you enter the shiverpeaks “Fighting to defend Ascalon” is never mentioned or such.

Prophecies never was about “Defending Ascalon” or “Defeating the charr to save the land!” besides the intro.

The Charr were not retconned. EVERYTHING they did is still there. And most of it is still labeled as horrible. Only a few charr I’ve seen praise the searing and the shaman in charge of it for defeating the humans.

LA was destroyed, and pirates reclaimed it… then Kryta let them have their freedom.

I played all of GW1. I remember the glory of ascalon, and it’s destruction. I remember how the stubborn nature of the king doomed Ascalon to destruction by refusing all aid, and not understanding that it was over.

Dustfinger.9510:

Arrests the captains Council? For the crime of doing exactly what Kryta told them they could do 3 generation ago? That is as illogical as it gets. especially in the midst of this world ending dragon snafoo.

Really? – “told them they could”?? Seriously???

At that time Kryta was suffering from a total economic meltdown as a result of a massive tidalwave that destroyed their main city – Lion’s Arch which also was the seat of power of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta of which Queen Jennah is a member of.

The nation was in a state of a national emergency. So when a pirate cartel comes and takes control or your ruined main city what do you think Kryta was able to really do about it? In a word NOTHING!

At that time if Divinity Reach if it existed it was only in the early stages of construction. Also one has to understand the limitation of in-game design. The Lionguard of Queen Salma’s day was not a police/milita organisation.

The Lionguard at that time served as the security forces of Kryta the military. I would say that the Shining Blade served as a police force as well as Salma’s person guard. Since which other organisation could serve as such when your country just got shattered??

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dustfinger.9510:

Arrests the captains Council? For the crime of doing exactly what Kryta told them they could do 3 generation ago? That is as illogical as it gets. especially in the midst of this world ending dragon snafoo.

Really? – “told them they could”?? Seriously???

At that time Kryta was suffering from a total economic meltdown as a result of a massive tidalwave that destroyed their main city – Lion’s Arch which also was the seat of power of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta of which Queen Jennah is a member of.

The nation was in a state of a national emergency. So when a pirate cartel comes and takes control or your ruined main city what do you think Kryta was able to really do about it? In a word NOTHING!

At that time if Divinity Reach if it existed it was only in the early stages of construction. Also one has to understand the limitation of in-game design. The Lionguard of Queen Salma’s day was not a police/milita organisation.

The Lionguard at that time served as the security forces of Kryta the military. I would say that the Shining Blade served as a police force as well as Salma’s person guard. Since which other organisation could serve as such when your country just got shattered??

All you did is describe why Kryta did “tell them they could”.

The Lionguard at this time have nothing to do with Kryta. They are run by a Norn and that norn just happens to be on the Captains Council. How do you imagine Queen jenna is going to ‘order’ them to turn on the Captains council?

Thuggernaut.1250:

all the retcon bullkitten after GW1 making charr into decent guys and kryta abandoning lion’s arch obviously precludes this plotline from ever happening, but any GW1 veteran who remembers the glory of ascalon would jump at the chance. this would be a kitten fight full of nostalgia and glory. hell yeah the humans of kryta should fight for ascalon, it would a fascinating plotline compared to fighting faceless forces of nature (dragons).

As a guild wars 1 vet, from a logical perspective, another war waged by humans would be utter suicide for their species. If Jennah tried to overtake anything she would face the combined might of the charr, asura and norn (maybe sylvari, but likely not). Not to mention the orders. The only human led order quite likes the way things are right now and the large and powerful Vigil is led by a Charr.

Divinity’s Reach would lose, hard.

As for the glory of Ascalon, the only half-decent royalty was Rurik. Adelbern was an idiot from the get go. Ascalon was doomed largely because of it’s “glorious” king. The fool doomed his entire kingdom to an eternity of suffering just for a hollow “victory”.

Nothing about the charr was retcon, you seem to be confusing a retcon with being given more details about a species.

Really if we’re gonna toss out crap about rightful owners of Ascalon, it sure as hell aren’t the humans OR charr.

Dustfinger.9510:

The Lionguard at this time have nothing to do with Kryta. They are run by a Norn and that norn just happens to be on the Captains Council. How do you imagine Queen jenna is going to ‘order’ them to turn on the Captains council?

If it had to take this long I will still very much expect the Lionguard to do their duty to their Queen. Since if things were set right after the Cataclysm tidal-wave they the Lionguard would still awe their allegiance to the Crown – exclusively and thus in this time serve Jennah as their absolute ruler.

Any resistance from the Captain’s Council would result in the execution of all members of the council and their staff – without mercy. This would be justice. And seen by all Krytans as such, since its the duty of the Crown to protect the interests and safety of all Krytans regardless of race or creed.

The Lionguard have no duty and have sworn no allegiance to the Krytan Queen. Might as well try to obligate all of the United States to fulfill their duty to Great Britain.

Dustfinger.9510:

The Lionguard have no duty and have sworn no allegiance to the Krytan Queen. Might as well try to obligate all of the United States to fulfill their duty to Great Britain.

In the instance of the United States the secession from the rule of the British Crown was the singular will of the peoples of the Amercian colonies of that era. Thus and only thus the break from the Crown was valid.

In the case of Kryta at the time just after the Catalysm the duty of the Crown was to marshal all its forces and resources to put back the nation as best it could and as swiftly as it were able. However it was the will of the majority that all of Kryta as they knew it be retained by the Crown on behalf of the people.

It was NOT the will of the people to allow a cartel to take their former main city and port away from them to do as they will. And so yes the Lionguard still should be legally bound to serve Kryta under the rule of the Crown – at this time that means HRH Jennah. Since this too is the will of the Krytan people.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dustfinger.9510:

The Lionguard have no duty and have sworn no allegiance to the Krytan Queen. Might as well try to obligate all of the United States to fulfill their duty to Great Britain.

In the instance of the United States the secession from the rule of the British Crown was the singular will of the peoples of the Amercian colonies of that era. Thus and only thus the break from the Crown was valid.

In the case of Kryta at the time just after the Catalysm the duty of the Crown was to marshal all its forces and resources to put back the nation as best it could and as swiftly as it were able. However it was the will of the majority that all of Kryta as they knew it be retained by the Crown on behalf of the people.

It was NOT the will of the people to allow a cartel to take their former main city and port away from them to do as they will.

There was actually a big debate because a great many people did continue their allegiance to the crown.

edit: And keep in mind that a war was fought for the colonies. It wasn’t seen as a valid break until after the crown was strong armed into the decision.

The current series of events as of the Festival of the Four Winds would never have occurred as now described. And Lion’s Arch’s rebuilding is for the purpose of Krytan Trade with the rest of Tyria – for the benefit of the whole Krtan nation not just this rogue institution. Jennah would still open the Queen’s Pavilion to help raise funds – but for rebuilding a Lion’s Arch under direct rule of the Krytan Crown – of which she holds.

You seem to be under the strong illusion that a Lion’s Arch under Crown rule would disallow open and fair trade with the rest of the world? Seriously? Are you sure YOUR not under the effects of a powerful Mesmer???

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dustfinger.9510:

The Lionguard have no duty and have sworn no allegiance to the Krytan Queen. Might as well try to obligate all of the United States to fulfill their duty to Great Britain.

In the instance of the United States the secession from the rule of the British Crown was the singular will of the peoples of the Amercian colonies of that era. Thus and only thus the break from the Crown was valid.

In the case of Kryta at the time just after the Catalysm the duty of the Crown was to marshal all its forces and resources to put back the nation as best it could and as swiftly as it were able. However it was the will of the majority that all of Kryta as they knew it be retained by the Crown on behalf of the people.

It was NOT the will of the people to allow a cartel to take their former main city and port away from them to do as they will. And so yes the Lionguard still should be legally bound to serve Kryta under the rule of the Crown – at this time that means HRH Jennah. Since this too is the will of the Krytan people.

Actually, it wasn’t the ’single will of the people of the American Colonies" – it was a handful of merchants annoyed by taxes, real estate brokers annoyed by British protection of Native and Quebecois lands, and Slaveholders annoyed by legal disruption of the slave trade that funded the start of a war (Which started out largely a minorty until the Crown and Parliament over-responded and destroyed trust among the British Citizens of the Colonies, and caused them to reject their allegiance to the crown)

… In much the same way, Lion’s Arch being an independent city may not be the will of the people of Kryta at large, but it is the will of the people who matter of Lion’s Arch to be independent.

In much the same way, trying to restore Lion’s Arch to Krytan/Human control would destroy the value of the city as a trading hub, because it would shift the balance of power of the alliance. Lion’s Arch’s neutrality is its biggest draw. Trade would collapse if the city were returned strictly to human control, because the Norn, Asura, and especially Charr traders would feel threatened by the imbalance of power in the city and loss of representation (And given how strong the cultural friendship between Charr and Norn seems to be, each would react to a threat against the other).

The trade would only be open and fair as long as Kryta permits it – giving the Queen veto and final word on the laws and regulations of trade in Lion’s Arch would dramatically weaken the trust and representation of other races.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The current series of events as of the Festival of the Four Winds would never have occurred as now described. And Lion’s Arch’s rebuilding is for the purpose of Krytan Trade with the rest of Tyria – for the benefit of the whole Krtan nation not just this rogue institution. Jennah would still open the Queen’s Pavilion to help raise funds – but for rebuilding a Lion’s Arch under direct rule of the Krytan Crown – of which she holds.

You seem to be under the strong illusion that a Lion’s Arch under Crown rule would disallow open and fair trade with the rest of the world? Seriously? Are you sure YOUR not under the effects of a powerful Mesmer???

It wouldn’t have occurred had YOU written it. But it would have occurred and it did in the absence of your own preferences.

I’ve said nothing about kryta having the inability to open fair trade if they take over an independent city state. But just because they MAY be fair doesn’t mean that city states allies would just roll over and allow it.

But how much faith in that promised fairness would anybody have in the queen if she ever did take an independent city state?

The preference of foreign powers as the to the governance of a sovereign (stolen)possession of Kryta is outside their jurisdiction. And yes I have written it based of the facts as it was presented to us all, post Orrian Cataclysm. An plot device of Arenanet’s own design. As was the process by which the theft of a sovereign Krytan territorial possession was written into GW2 Lore.

Since Lion’s Arch was stolen from the people of Kryta. Further the governance preferences of the current people of Lion’s Arch must be set aside since they are part of a criminal organisation – thus voiding their otherwise guaranteed right of self-determination. The foreign powers would have no choice but to acknowledge this truth. Thus all their possessions would be taken from them leaving them nothing – since their all criminals – that’s if Queen Jennah wants to go that far – she can if she sees fit to. She may grant an amnesty to the common traders but not the members of the Captain’s Council and their staff.

How much faith should any Krytan place on the even handed-ness of the Crown? As much as they did when Kryta was ruled by Queen Salma.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The preference of foreign powers as the to the governance of a sovereign (stolen)possession of Kryta is outside their jurisdiction. And yes I have written it based of the facts as it was presented to us all, post Orrian Cataclysm. An plot device of Arenanet’s own design. As was the process by which the theft of a sovereign Krytan territorial possession was written into GW2 Lore.

Since Lion’s Arch was stolen from the people of Kryta. Further the governance preferences of the current people of Lion’s Arch must be set aside since they are part of a criminal organisation – thus voiding their otherwise guaranteed right of self-determination. The foreign powers would have no choice but to acknowledge this truth. Thus all their possessions would be taken from them leaving them nothing – since their all criminals – that’s if Queen Jennah wants to go that far – she can if she sees fit to. She may grant an amnesty to the common traders but not the members of the Captain’s Council and their staff.

How much faith should any Krytan place on the even handed-ness of the Crown? As much as they did when Kryta was ruled by Queen Salma.

You talk a lot about “Rights” and “Jurisdictions” and other legalities. The preferences of the current people of Lion’s Arch are the only ones that matter, legally, because they are currently a separate city-state. If Kryta considers them criminals, it can feel free to, but it doesn’t void their ‘rights’ – not as long as they have voices to oppose it, and the guns+swords to defend themselves.

And as for the faith of ‘Krytans’ on the even-handedness of the Crown? We’re not talking about purely Krytans here. We’re talking about the Metricans, Ascalonians, Shiverpeak Mountaineers, and Grovers who all live or trade in Lion’s Arch, and are interested in its independent sovereignty. If the Metricans feel their representation and interests in Lion’s Arch compromised, they will either pull out, or enforce their own trade regulations in disregard of the queen’s orders with golems and peacekeepers. The Ascalonians will probably feel VERY threatened by a takeover of their independent port, and likely convince their Shiverpeak Drinking Buddies to assist in restoring its independence. None of these factions care about the legalities or formalities or claims of a Krytan Queen.

Also, again, the lionguard were stated at the end of war in Kryta that they’d continue to guard and be loyal to Lion’s Arch… not be a military force.

Princess Salma: “We thank the Lionguard for their unwavering support of the people of Kryta. They shall continue, under the command of Firstwatch Sergio, in service to the city of Lion’s Arch.”

Nich S, you seem to be fixed on one viewpoint, and inable to take anything other then that.

Wiki page on the great krytan blockade…

However, before long they were freed by Master Exemplar Livia of the Shining Blade, who was still carrying out King Beade’s final orders, namely that Lion’s Arch must be kept sacrosanct so that the combined might of all the races can gather under one flag to fight Tyria’s greatest enemy: Orr.

And Beade’s page…

His Majesty Baede, King of Kryta and once king of Lion’s Arch was renowned throughout Tyria. Cobiah Marriner had dealt with him once or twice, though only though intermediaries and ambassadors. There was a tense peace between Kryta and Lion’s Arch, broken on occasion by skirmishes and trade embargoes, but generally respected.

In fact, Beade did not have the guns to take on the finest navy in the world—or their commander. Taking Lion’s Arch by force would require an attacker to be ruthless. They’d have to destroy a navy and slaughter the populace before they’d kneel to a ruler who’s not born and bred in the waves. Beade respected that and tried to deal with Marriner, hoping Lion’s Arch would return to Kryta in time.

Kalavier and Sartharina hit it pretty well.

Dustfinger.9510:

Kalavier and Sartharina hit it pretty well.

Have they? They have just illustrated my point even more clearer than I have thus far. Yes the Crown in the personage of King Beade did concede defeat since the Krytan nation at the time did not have the resources to defend its borders and was seriously economically crippled.

And as the opinions of the occupants of Lion’s Arch? How would their position be anything other than insistent that they have legitimate claim to the city? Of course they would claim Lion’s Arch as their own. A criminal of course would claim that what he or she is able to steal and keep is rightfully theirs to hold and their peers would thus accept this – since they all are the same – enemies of the state.

Once HRH Jennah presents her claims to her people through the full seating of Ministry body with all representatives present – it would be clear to all that the claims of the occupiers of Lion’s Arch – can be declared NULL AND VOID.

Thus the her findings as well the agreement of The Krytan Ministry would be documented and officially recorded. Copies would then be sent to the Ambassadors of the other four major races informing them that the occupiers of Lion’s Arch have been found to be guilty of high treason and are thus enemies of the state – and therefore do not have the right to call on any of them for protection.

And its clear that I must again remind the interested parties that the resources that the rogue city-state of Lion’s Arch possesses are the result of the “recovered” gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel – Salma’s Grace. This gold massively enhanced the financial power of this pirate cartel allowing them to buy the best ships, equipment and crews to match. All of which as has been made clear in the official Lore as well as myself and interested parties.

Further the other four major races would expect HRH Jennah to put down this rebellion as part of her leadership of her own country in exchange for their full respect and aid to repel any current or future threat coming from Orr.

Since the Orrian threat does not only threaten Kryta but the whole of Tyria.

If Jennah went off the deep end and did that, the other ‘nations’ would laugh at her, and likely bolster LA with their forces, as would the orders.

The Krytan crown officially stated LA to be independant, and free of Kryta rule. Going back on such a statement is a horrible PR move. Also Jennah is hosting the pavilion to raise funds to aid LA, so obviously so doesn’t think of them as traitors and criminals.

Note, Kryta did not rebuild LA. “Those criminals” did. The Salma’s grace was sunk 70 years ago. That gold is long been spent.

Also, I question how legit your comments on the whole legaility of the issues are, since you earlier tried to argue that Gwen was present for Nightfall, Factions, Prophecies, and EOTN and GW beyond, when she was only present for EOTN events, and a tiny bit of beyond. Same for other heroes.

I can’t help but think your views are seriously skewed by “How you think things should’ve happened” as opposed to how things actually went.

Kalavier.1097:

If Jennah went off the deep end and did that, the other ‘nations’ would laugh at her, and likely bolster LA with their forces, as would the orders.

The Krytan crown officially stated LA to be independant, and free of Kryta rule. Going back on such a statement is a horrible PR move. Also Jennah is hosting the pavilion to raise funds to aid LA, so obviously so doesn’t think of them as traitors and criminals.

Note, Kryta did not rebuild LA. “Those criminals” did. The Salma’s grace was sunk 70 years ago. That gold is long been spent.

Also, I question how legit your comments on the whole legaility of the issues are, since you earlier tried to argue that Gwen was present for Nightfall, Factions, Prophecies, and EOTN and GW beyond, when she was only present for EOTN events, and a tiny bit of beyond. Same for other heroes.

I can’t help but think your views are seriously skewed by “How you think things should’ve happened” as opposed to how things actually went.

Treaties do get broken or terminated, and LA can be happy that Jennah did not use the opportunity to re-negotiate. It’s currently destroyed, and not exactly in a position of power to negotiate. The Zephyrites offering help is a deus-ex-machina mechanism to get LA rebuilt.

Concerning other nations, who exactly would try to interfere if Jennah decided to gain control of LA? The Asura maybe, to protect their gate business. The Charr are currently negotiating with Kryta. The Norn do not care. The Sylvari do not strike me as going to war with Kryta over it. The Pact didn’t interfere when Scarlet destroyed LA, they would not bother if LA changed “owner”. It does not concern their fight against the Elder Dragons.

LA was rebuilt by pirates, and the legitimacy of today’s captain’s council may still be questioned due to that. A government has to bear responsibility for the actions of its predecessors.

Jennah should at least have used the opportunity to gain more influence in LA, for example by insisting on having a member of her choice on the captain’s council. To let that opportunity slip simply happens because of the character of the GW2 world, where we are all friends and no one but the Elder Dragons and the splinter groups like the Inquest are evil, and everything is not exactly “realistic”. LA is still independent because it’s a fantasy world, and because the game designers want it that way.

I never said the Pact. I said the ORDERS.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dustfinger.9510:

Kalavier and Sartharina hit it pretty well.

Have they? They have just illustrated my point even more clearer than I have thus far. Yes the Crown in the personage of King Beade did concede defeat since the Krytan nation at the time did not have the resources to defend its borders and was seriously economically crippled.

They absolutely did.

And as the opinions of the occupants of Lion’s Arch? How would their position be anything other than insistent that they have legitimate claim to the city? Of course they would claim Lion’s Arch as their own. A criminal of course would claim that what he or she is able to steal and keep is rightfully theirs to hold and their peers would thus accept this – since they all are the same – enemies of the state.

They absolutely would Just as The present day United States would.

Once HRH Jennah presents her claims to her people through the full seating of Ministry body with all representatives present – it would be clear to all that the claims of the occupiers of Lion’s Arch – can be declared NULL AND VOID.

Cam be declared null and void according to the people that may want to take someone elses land that was given to them. That’s very convenient.

Thus the her findings as well the agreement of The Krytan Ministry would be documented and officially recorded. Copies would then be sent to the Ambassadors of the other four major races informing them that the occupiers of Lion’s Arch have been found to be guilty of high treason and are thus enemies of the state – and therefore do not have the right to call on any of them for protection.

why would any other nation adhere to kryta’s laws?

And its clear that I must again remind the interested parties that the resources that the rogue city-state of Lion’s Arch possesses are the result of the “recovered” gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel – Salma’s Grace. This gold massively enhanced the financial power of this pirate cartel allowing them to buy the best ships, equipment and crews to match. All of which as has been made clear in the official Lore as well as myself and interested parties.

when kryta conceeded defeat, they …. conceded defeat. How would this gold matter now when it didn’t matter after a defeat?

Further the other four major races would expect HRH Jennah to put down this rebellion as part of her leadership of her own country in exchange for their full respect and aid to repel any current or future threat coming from Orr.

Since the Orrian threat does not only threaten Kryta but the whole of Tyria.

We see that this simply isn’t true. Not in the current state of Tyria and not in the current real world when countries deal with Great Britain.

They are only possibly considered Criminals and part of Kryta by the Krytans of Divinity’s Reach. The Ascalonians of the Black Citadel, Metricans of Rata Sum, and Shiverpeak Mountaineers of Hoelbrak all consider it to be a nation as soveriegn and independent as themselves: Queen Jennah trying to annex Lion’s Arch would be met with the same reaction as her trying to annex Rata Sum, The Black Citadel, or Hoelbrak. While the Sylvari of the Grove are powerful allies against the dragons and Undead of Orr, they are largely irrelevant in the intracontinental political landscape.

The Charr and Asura have strong interest in keeping Lion’s Arch independent – The Asura want their free trade protected, and the Charr don’t trust a human-dominated city to be fair to them – especially not one that they have such strained tensions with. Lion’s Arch is ruled by a multiracial captain’s council.

As for the Orrian threat – if the Krytans under the Crown of Divinity’s Reach prove belligerent and try annexing the sovereign city-state despite the strain that would put on the alliance between the Asura, Humans, Charr, and Norn, and don’t back down against Asuran economic injunctions or a show of force from the Charr or their Norn drinking buddies (And Asuran think-tank and R&D partners), Lion’s Arch just needs to hold out long enough for the other races and Lion’s Arch to renegotiate their treaties and alliances to exclude the Krytans of Divinity’s Reach in favor of the Harathi Centaurs and Freemen of Kryta.

Sartharina.3542:

Freemen of Kryta.

I read that as “Fremen of Kryta” and was thinking they’d somehow ride/steer the Great Jungle Wurms into Queensdale.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sartharina.3542:

Freemen of Kryta.

I read that as “Fremen of Kryta” and was thinking they’d somehow ride/steer the Great Jungle Wurms into Queensdale.

………….that is just a bad kitten image.

Sartharina.3542:

They are only possibly considered Criminals and part of Kryta by the Krytans of Divinity’s Reach. The Ascalonians of the Black Citadel, Metricans of Rata Sum, and Shiverpeak Mountaineers of Hoelbrak all consider it to be a nation as soveriegn and independent as themselves: Queen Jennah trying to annex Lion’s Arch would be met with the same reaction as her trying to annex Rata Sum, The Black Citadel, or Hoelbrak. While the Sylvari of the Grove are powerful allies against the dragons and Undead of Orr, they are largely irrelevant in the intracontinental political landscape.

The Charr and Asura have strong interest in keeping Lion’s Arch independent – The Asura want their free trade protected, and the Charr don’t trust a human-dominated city to be fair to them – especially not one that they have such strained tensions with. Lion’s Arch is ruled by a multiracial captain’s council.

As for the Orrian threat – if the Krytans under the Crown of Divinity’s Reach prove belligerent and try annexing the sovereign city-state despite the strain that would put on the alliance between the Asura, Humans, Charr, and Norn, and don’t back down against Asuran economic injunctions or a show of force from the Charr or their Norn drinking buddies (And Asuran think-tank and R&D partners), Lion’s Arch just needs to hold out long enough for the other races and Lion’s Arch to renegotiate their treaties and alliances to exclude the Krytans of Divinity’s Reach in favor of the Harathi Centaurs and Freemen of Kryta.

On what basis would the foreign powers consider Lion’s Arch to be a sovereign state? Its clear that support for the legitimacy of the Captain’s Council is based purely on maintaining the status quo. The ancestors of the Captain’s Council forced the Crown to give-up claim to the city when it was still recovering from the devastation caused by the Orrian catalysm – using stolen Krytan funds – to build a military force capable of repelling Kryta of that era.

As I have at length described in my previous post – had Kryta been able to fully recover fully from the impact of the tidalwave that destroyed Lion’s Arch and crippled the entire national economy of Kryta at the time – there was no way the Crown would have been forced into the situation it found itself in.

The other races would have known of this truth since the Crown would have informed their Ambassador’s of the particulars of these series of events. Thus they the other four major races would be in NO POSITION to hold the view that the Captain’s Council-lead Lion’s Arch has any legitimate claim to sovereignty.

Who said they call themselves a Sovereign state? last I checked it was an independent city (or a city-state), not a nation.

Also, again, LA has enough treaties with various groups Kryta trying to take out would likely harm Kryta and trade in general.

I would I miss pre-searing Ascalon City and AA! Arena Net Please I want it back kittenmit!.

Kalavier.1097:

Who said they call themselves a Sovereign state? last I checked it was an independent city (or a city-state), not a nation.

Also, again, LA has enough treaties with various groups Kryta trying to take out would likely harm Kryta and trade in general.

It’s either a Sovereing (City-)state in itself, or part of a larger nation. Independent cities are by definition sovereign.

And to answer Nick – The other powers consider Lion’s Arch a soveriegn entity because they currently treat it as a sovereign entity (See – Taiwan being Sovereign from China). It managed to acquire freedom from Divinity’s Reach’s crown, and get recognized as an independent city-state by the other powers. It’s also proven itself capable of holding that position against opposition. Sword Trumps Words, unless those words summon more sword (As treaties of alliance do).

The other powers also prefer the currently-independent Lion’s Arch because the leadership is multicultural and multiracial, giving everyone a more fair sense of representation on the council and in the governing of the city and its trade regulations.

I would I miss pre-searing Ascalon City and AA! Arena Net Please I want it back kittenmit!.

The only way Ascalon’s ever going back to anything like it was Pre-searing is to STOP tearing the land apart with excessive violence and neverending warfare.

Oh. didn’t know that :P. Then again I never really dealt with that area of information. But like we both have said… much of LA relationships with other factions, nations, and races pretty much boil it into a neutral land. Kryta taking over could shatter a number of those making trade much harder, perhaps other nations starting to seperate from Kryta more and more (Such as Asura/Sylvari making their own neutrality pacts with the Centaurs to ensure their caravans are safe, distancing themselves from humans.)

Ascalon returning to pre-searing start would basically have to mean for ALL civilized cultures to leave the area for a long time to let the land heal fully. It’s healed a good bit, and iron legion do their part to help that (As seen in their oil cleaning actions in lakes and rivers)… but flame legion continue to scar the land.

Grawl maybe(and perhaps harpies) could be left there, but the other groups would have to leave and let nature do it’s thing.

Kalavier.1097:

Who said they call themselves a Sovereign state? last I checked it was an independent city (or a city-state), not a nation.

Also, again, LA has enough treaties with various groups Kryta trying to take out would likely harm Kryta and trade in general.

If the other main races were so informed of what I have thus far described in my previous posts: ALL Lion’s Arch Treaties and agreements will have be considered NULL AND VOID since they have knowing entered into negotiations with a rogue state.

A city-state can be a Sovereign state – and Lion’s Arch is currently operating as such – since it does not recognise the authority of the Crown of Kryta to act on it’s behalf in any capacity.

Who says it’s a rogue state? Who says ALL other groups would accept Kryta’s statement as such?

Again, good luck trying to convince the Centaurs that their treaty with LA (which protects the havens from centaur raids) that LA is a rogue state and they should just accept Kryta taking over it.

The charr and asura likely would not be thrilled at it. Other races and groups may become much more careful about bringing their trade to the city. It’s neutrality is a boon to everybody, a nation taking over it only harms the area.

Frankly, half your statements (to me) make no sense, and the other half come across as “This is how things went/should have went because I SAY SO. Not because actual canon/lore backing.”

Also, the ministry likely wouldn’t back any actions against LA because almost all their views on military deployment boil into “Secure DR first, then worry about the rest.” They wouldn’t back a military conquest of LA (because that’s what it’d take).

Other races wouldn’t agree. Sylvari likely would just want people to get along. Asura well, I have trouble gaging their reaction but I don’t see them playing along.

Norn and Charr likely would go something like “If they are traitors in reality, and there illegaly, then why don’t you go force them out?” and not actually pull any backing of LA or trade. Basically saying “Human, back your words. Actually do something about it.” Which again, as Baede said, to take LA you’d basically have to slaughter the entire lionguard, navy, AND most of the civilian population before they’d bend knee and surrender. As scarlet’s attack showed, they bounced back from that and retook their city. I doubt Kryta could afford an attack of similar scale (and most of the kills were caused by Miasma and airal bombardment, not combat) in the first place, let alone a followup if the city was taken back by lionguard.

Also, the orders of Tyria wouldn’t buy it and you’d likely see OoW playing politics to get enough ministry votes against it (or get other races to back LA to force Kryta to back off), Vigil reinforcing the city directly and probably Priory actually going through all the records and history proving LA is independent, and given such status by the crown of Kryta.

Kalavier.1097:

Frankly, half your statements (to me) make no sense, and the other half come across as “This is how things went/should have went because I SAY SO. Not because actual canon/lore backing.”

Again your statements do not add anything to the discussion. It does prove that despite the FACT that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that my understanding of fact events DO have FULL BACKING in Lore, you and others like you ignore it. As to my statements being essential formed on the basis of my personal “I SAY SO”. Seriously? Really are you actually serious and of sound mind when you wrote that?

The Orders of Tyria would make their own inquiries and form their own conclusions. The Order of Whispers would among other consult with Kryta’s Shining Blade organisation to assist with the confirmation of the facts of the political situation in Kryta as in regards to the legal status of Lion’s Arch and the claims of HRH Jennah.

This along with their direct intelligence gathering would confirm the truth. Which is that the occupation of Lion’s Arch by the Captains Council is manifestly ILLEGAL.

This report by the Order of Whispers would then be tabled to the other two components of the Pact to establish the Orders view of the Sovereignty claims of both political entities.

As for the Crown of Kryta moving on to annexation of Lion’s Arch -returning its former Capital City (yes it was the Capital of Kryta – pre-Orrian Catalysm) – it woul have the full unqualified support of the Pact and further could be called upon to provide “resources” to restore order by all means deemed nessessary by the Crown on Kryta.

Since may I remind you that the five major races of Tyria are the actual patrons/backers of the Pact. The other four races would be bound to assist Humanity as a member of this Pact to assist in neutralising without mercy any and ALL opposition that may arise in the annexation of Lion’s Arch up to and including the port’s complete destruction.

Additionally. Its clear that some do not comprehend that the Pact Treaty is NOT just an agreement between The Orders of Tyria. The Orders would need the backing as in Financial, Equipment, Supplies, Munitions, Logistics – all the requirements of relevant Miltary and/or Intelligence organisation that operate on an international level – which all three do.

There is no logical way that the Order can operate independent of the political apparatus of the five major races of Tyria. I mean seriously! Does anyone actually believe that the five races would actually allow the operation of these three Orders without have an actual oversight arrangement? Really???

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Since may I remind you that the five major races of Tyria are the actual patrons/backers of the Pact. The other four races would be bound to assist Humanity as a member of this Pact to assist in neutralising without mercy any and ALL opposition that may arise in the annexation of Lion’s Arch up to and including the port’s complete destruction.

I think we have another Adelbern in the making here, guys. >.>

Zaxares.5419:

I think we have another Adelbern in the making here, guys. >.>

The other races were happy to effective approve of the “The Searing” of Human Ascalon – and this was without formal political discussion between the races of Tyria.

This scenario is different since this case has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to all. This does not need to result in bloodshed that is so absolute. But if the real and actual threat of it is not a reality then the mission will fail.

Thus to assure the minimum lost of life all must be fully informed and all must be resolute – without mercy. mercy is for those who admit in this case their guilt and surrender. No admission of guilt – No mercy.

By other races, you’re referring basically to the Charr, who were ruled by the Flame Legion at the time. The Asura hadn’t arrived at the surface yet, the Norn were too busy drinking and hunting to take notice of what was going on in Ascalon, and the first Sylvari wouldn’t even be born for a few hundred years.

There’s even some debate among modern Charr about whether the Searing was necessary, but like modern humans, they can’t help but take some pride in it, just like how some Americans are proud of having won the war against Japan, despite the horrific civilian casualties and long-term health issues caused by the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.

In any case, I can assure you that the other races would not approve of or support Kryta in annexing Lion’s Arch.

Besides, if Kryta really wanted to annex Lion’s Arch, the best way to do so would be with overwhelming charitable support right now as they rebuild. Capitalise on the feeling that the Captain’s Council and the Lionguard were inept and incapable of protecting their citizens. Subtly hint that things would be better and safer under Seraph protection, and let the Archians come to the conclusion that they WANT to be under Krytan rule. Things will take their course from there.

(Of course, given that DR is apparently still hurting for funds and rebuilding after Scarlet’s attack, I doubt they’re in a position to do that right now.)

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Zaxares.5419:

I think we have another Adelbern in the making here, guys. >.>

The other races were happy to effective approve of the “The Searing” of Human Ascalon – and this was without formal political discussion between the races of Tyria.

So, let’s take a role call here.

The humans, the norn, the charr, the asura, and the sylvari. Just to use the greater races. One of them wasn’t even alive at that period (sylvari), so we can count them out. You could add in the dwarves but recall they were sort of in the middle of a civil war from what we could see . . . one which had been going on a while.

So, the asura. Who we don’t know what they were doing at that period in history other than being somewhere underground in Tyria and remaining unknown to everyone else. They must have condoned the Searing through their absence, I guess?

The norn, who did not (and still do not) have a central authority to dictate behavior. I guess they condoned the Searing by not having one.

The charr. Very definitely were for the Searing since it was the only way they could reliably defeat Ascalon while the Wall remained intact.

Humanity. Probably had no clue the Searing was even a possibility until big magical flaming crystals fell out of the sky. Actually, pretty much had no clue anything like that was going to happen.

Am I about accurate here?

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Again your statements do not add anything to the discussion. It does prove that despite the FACT that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that my understanding of fact events DO have FULL BACKING in Lore, you and others like you ignore it. As to my statements being essential formed on the basis of my personal “I SAY SO”. Seriously? Really are you actually serious and of sound mind when you wrote that?

Well, given how you believeed Vekk, Odgen, and Gwen experianced the events of nightfall firsthand and used that as a basis for “The dwarven legacy going to humanity because of the lore!”

The Orders of Tyria would make their own inquiries and form their own conclusions. The Order of Whispers would among other consult with Kryta’s Shining Blade organisation to assist with the confirmation of the facts of the political situation in Kryta as in regards to the legal status of Lion’s Arch and the claims of HRH Jennah.

Priory: "We have records from that timeframe. King Baede allowed the city to remain neutral, and his final order was that “Lion’s Arch must be kept sacrosanct so that the combined might of all the races can gather under one flag to fight Tyria’s greatest enemy: Orr.” Also that “Edair had agreed to submit to an independent Lion’s Arch, recognizing the city’s sovereignty as long as the Captain’s Council were in charge.” Kryta moving to retake the city is basically an act of war."
Vigil: “This conflict gains nothing but more death. We should focus on the ACTUAL problems, the remnants of Scarlet’s forces if they appear, but mainly the dragons!”
Order of whispers: “As the priory and vigil noted, this would only create conflict that is unneeded. Lion’s Arch was given independance by the crown, moving to retake the city is betraying that word.”

That is what I see being said about your proposed actions.

This along with their direct intelligence gathering would confirm the truth. Which is that the occupation of Lion’s Arch by the Captains Council is manifestly ILLEGAL.

So a city granted independance by a KING OF KRYTA, and allowed to be free of Kryta control by the king before then, for the purpose of being a place to combine the might of the races… is illegal? This is where you lose me. Jennah moving to conquer the city is legal, yet Edair saying they are independent is illegal?

This report by the Order of Whispers would then be tabled to the other two components of the Pact to establish the Orders view of the Sovereignty claims of both political entities.

You mean that LA has full sovereignty as an independent city as long as the captain’s council is in charge…

As for the Crown of Kryta moving on to annexation of Lion’s Arch -returning its former Capital City (yes it was the Capital of Kryta – pre-Orrian Catalysm) – it would have the full unqualified support of the Pact and further could be called upon to provide “resources” to restore order by all means deemed nessessary by the Crown on Kryta.

How? This is where you fail. You claim EVERYBODY would jump onboard Kryta retaking LA, but don’t explain why. The Pact didn’t even get involved with Scarlet’s assault, why would they bloody care if Kryta wanted to reclaim the city? (That is, pact leadership and heavy gear).

Since may I remind you that the five major races of Tyria are the actual patrons/backers of the Pact. The other four races would be bound to assist Humanity as a member of this Pact to assist in neutralising without mercy any and ALL opposition that may arise in the annexation of Lion’s Arch up to and including the port’s complete destruction.

May I remind you that the orders are actually independent, and we’ve seen NOTHING that implies the Pact can’t operate without backing of the nations. Again, I don’t see ANYBODY else coming to Aid Kryta, infact I see a number actually aiding LA for a number of reasons. Besides the fact such a move would leave entire chunks of Kryta completely open to attack and destruction from a more pressing threat (centaurs). Remember, scarlet took the city ONLY because of the Miasma (and partly the bombardment). She forced them to flee the city, and once the Miasma blew out, they retook the city within a day (or two possibly). Kryta doesn’t have that advantage. Besides the fact tyhe ministry explicitly wouldn’t get on board with it as it’d weaken DR and surrounding lands due to military forces being moved around.

Remember, these are the guys who argue over whether it’s feasible to send reinforcements to ASCALON SETTLEMENT, and almost wrote that “They should ask LA for aid.” because of concerns about numbers of troops at DR and elsewhere.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Additionally. Its clear that some do not comprehend that the Pact Treaty is NOT just an agreement between The Orders of Tyria. The Orders would need the backing as in Financial, Equipment, Supplies, Munitions, Logistics – all the requirements of relevant Miltary and/or Intelligence organisation that operate on an international level – which all three do.

There is no logical way that the Order can operate independent of the political apparatus of the five major races of Tyria. I mean seriously! Does anyone actually believe that the five races would actually allow the operation of these three Orders without have an actual oversight arrangement? Really???

A: The orders are independant of the nations entirely. As in, the queen of Kryta or the imperator of the iron legion cannot order Vigil forces or Priory researchers to do a task.
B: The five races don’t have governments. Knut Whitebears power goes as far as Hoelbrek gates, and that’s it. Norn outside of Hoelbrek don’t have to listen to a word he says (but some may because he’s well respected.
C: The PACT may have some treaties with various nations/groups about funding or supplies, but the orders do not.

Do care to provide this irrefutable evidence that the other nations would openly accept Kryta screaming about LA being ruled illegally? IT was destroyed after all, and then the crown gave the council legitimacy and power by allowing them to remain independent. After LA was destroyed Kryta stopped controlling it.

Kalavier.1097:

Do care to provide this irrefutable evidence that the other nations would openly accept Kryta screaming about LA being ruled illegally? IT was destroyed after all, and then the crown gave the council legitimacy and power by allowing them to remain independent. After LA was destroyed Kryta stopped controlling it.

My guess is that it will be the same evidence that says no one deals with the USA because it forced Great Britains hand in an ‘illegal fashion’.

D. The major races don’t have the power to allow or disallow the operation of the orders. remember that the Order of Whispers has been operating since palawa’s fall.

Dustfinger.9510:

Kalavier.1097:

Do care to provide this irrefutable evidence that the other nations would openly accept Kryta screaming about LA being ruled illegally? IT was destroyed after all, and then the crown gave the council legitimacy and power by allowing them to remain independent. After LA was destroyed Kryta stopped controlling it.

My guess is that it will be the same evidence that says no one deals with the USA because it forced Great Britains hand in an ‘illegal fashion’.

D. The major races don’t have the power to allow or disallow the operation of the orders. remember that the Order of Whispers has been operating since palawa’s fall.

Actually as the co-sponsors of the member Orders of Tyria the major racess as a group DO have the power to dictate the function of their operation in complete sense.

Since ALL the personnel of the three Orders are citizens of Tyria and/or their racial homelands. And the five major races rule over said lands and have the authority to decide who may exploit resources, who may trade and who may live within the boundaries of the domain the respective racial leaders have responsibility for and thus rule over.

These personnel essentially come to the Orders fully trained and are the among best in their chosen profession/class. Since that is the requirement as I understand it. And often they come directly from being part of the militaries of the major races.

For the major races to allow this to occur there obviously has to be a formal agreement between the Orders and the Races of Tyria. Since all three have been operating internationally for some time.

This level of co-operation and co-existence shows clear and mutual trust between the heads of all five major races – trust that has matured and developed in the years since the events of GW(1).

Thus when HRH Jennah the recognised leader of all humanity in Tyria shows undeniable proof that Kryta’s former capital and main port has been occupied by a rogue cartel of pirates – the Races of Tyria will mobilise and neutralise the criminals – without mercy – unless the Captain’s Council give their complete official surrender to the Crown of Kryta.