Guild Wars 2

Xenon.4537:

However, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing for hardcores to separate themselves from casuals. In fact I think it’s inevitable.

I agree that there’s a strong tendency towards separation. I disagree that it’s inevitable.

Once upon a time, in more traditional MMOs, it was inevitable to look upon any other player intruding on your space in the open world as a stranger to compete with. Why not? They might beat you to the harvesting node you wanted, they might tap your mob first and rob you of xp or quest completion credit, and they surely couldn’t rez you if you died.

GW2 changed that paradigm. How? Through very intentional game design. Both players get to harvest nodes without affecting each other, both can fight the same mob and not steal xp from each other, and regardless of what class they are, they can rez each other.

This is a chance for the developers to design new innovative systems that support their manifesto, rather than fall back on the same old thing other MMOs already do, and probably do better.

GW2 is about unity, cooperation and inclusivity, not exclusion.

Hardcore-casual has never been a binary thing, but more a spectrum from ultra casual to ultra hardcore. Separating into strata that refuse to interact with each other only creates tiny insular communities, distrust and scorn, that make it hard for a player to cross over between communities, should they have the desire to.

Leaving these world bosses in the open world allows for people to chance across organized attempts and be left positively influenced by the interaction, perhaps developing an interest in joining the community they just met.

Instances simply provide a way for players to NOT have to talk to each other, save only for the few that meet their criteria of worth. We need to find solutions that don’t simply resort to “I don’t want to play with you, period.”

Because what we are doing in that situation is making things difficult for ourselves in the long run, by shutting out and shutting down the potential pool of people we can stand to play with.

And when we run out of those, we run out of social connections and lose interest in the game. We might even end up quitting, and a game shuts down when it runs out of a critical mass of people.

So what are some other possible solutions? More brainstorming:

We get frustrated when we cannot get into a full map. This is not something an instance will solve. Every encounter is tuned for a set number or range of players, and once you hit the limit, that’s it. What we really lack is sufficient leadership to organize a viable fight for more followers in another server map or overflow. That’s not something devs can address, but more of players stepping up.

We are terrified of losing connection and losing our spot. Possible solution: Allow 5-10 minutes for your spot to be reserved, allowing for re-logging without losing it to another player in the queue.

We are tired of having to wait for 1.5 hours to fight a hard world boss. Possible solutions: Shorten the timer, or allow players to start the boss themselves when they are ready – perhaps by doing an event chain that last 30mins or whatever, thus fighting it on demand and shortening the time between repeat learning attempts, similar to how one can just choose a dungeon and go.

We have to beg people to get on a voice program for communication, or are frustrated when they don’t seem to respond at all or communicate during the fight. (Bear in mind how ridiculously active GW2 combat is, and how hard it is to type communicate while fighting.) What we might need is are ways that players can more easily communicate, such as different target markings or a radial click menu for quick gestures and short pre-recorded commands “attack this, stop attacking, cc that, use range, use melee, stack” whatever.

We get irritated with players who are resistant to changing their build. Again, bear in mind that to change their build, they have to gasp leave the map they may have taken a while to get into, or buy a gem store item to retrait. Every single retrait right now involves individually clicking every trait from an obtuse sequence of roman numerals, and individually swapping pieces of equipment. Some of my alts have to carry 36 invisible bag slots to hold 3 gear sets plus jewelry (and a few minis for fun before they changed that) and I have to refer to a post-it note to remember my WvW, fun open world PvE and dungeon builds.

One possible solution: Template builds that can be saved/loaded/shared among players so that with a few clicks or copy-pastes, they can be switched into and out of more easily. I’m sure at least a few more players would be more receptive to build swapping if it weren’t so annoying to do right now.

We get impatient with players who don’t seem to care about giving it their all. Some may simply be too shy or scared to speak up and admit ignorance. Some have no clue that what they’re doing is “wrong” or annoying someone. Lashing out with toxicity or refusing to associate with them will never prompt them to change, but patient positivity might have a chance on receptive ones.

How about the lost-cause trolls that are patently out to grief others? Again, the only solution does not have to be to cut off your toe to spite your face and run off into a raid instance to get away from them. What we need then are better and more effective social controls beyond /block and /report for verbal abuse.

This I don’t have that many good ideas on, but a random possibility might be, for example… what if players had a more elaborate squad UI to join on commanders? Something more raid-framey or just the ability to see all the names of the players on your team besides 5 party members. Commander would have the right to kick people out of his squad or control certain privileges. If you are in the squad which takes down a raid boss (ie does majority of the damage or whatever), you qualify for bonus rewards, such as perhaps a higher drop rate of whatever the raid boss rewards. People who aren’t in the squad but fighting alongside would get the normal drop rate or partial rewards, so they still get something, but not as great a drop rate chance. That might provide more incentive for people to behave themselves and cooperate.

Raid instances do not have to be the only answer.

This new wurm encounter is for those who can CAMP in the main server from early hours till evening. Otherwise you’ll end up in overflow and with a ferry (this sucks for those who don’t have guildies in the main server) you’ll might get there.

Whole idea of bosses who need 150-200 people to beat in GW2 is kinda controversal because of the overflow system and no proper raid tools to organize parties for example.

At least there should be support for playermade addons like in WoW if you’re planning more world bosses that require whole map to participate. I’m an ex-WoW raider and did very long hours late at night beating new raid content and theorycrafting. I’m ok with that and love it. Things is that in WoW you still could do that hardest of hardest content WHENEVER it was nice for you and your guildies. So we could go to work and then at evening do our 4 hour raid. These events like Wurm if I log in to my server after work at evening I’m in overflow with few people and there’s nothing I can do about it.

Some serious flaws in the ‘’hard content’’ in this game to be honest if the hardest part is to try to GET TO THE MAIN MAP of a server where we have enough players with a will to use Teamspeak or otherwise organize.

all in all, fun fight but seriously mechanics in this game are back from 1990’s in terms of camping whole day to stay in main server for a decent try with the Evil Wurm.

MiniMe.1960:

When i read the replies from WilliamDaBloody.2591 and JoxerNL.3752, I’m getting a little upset already.
You two guys give me the impression like many others. Let the others do the work.
And to disguise your own incapability of putting in a little effort you call others elitist.

I am one of the people that camped 3 days on Deso for the kill, teaching other how to do it, helped everywhere I could etc…

Guess you owe me an apology…

I am a hardcore player but not an elitist. I am for integration of every player and against seperation by so called “elitists” who think they are above the rest. That’s a difference.

@Jeromai: I never said to remove wurm from the open world. I never said to make dedicated raid servers to kill the current world bosses. NO!

It have to be something new. A completly new raid dungeon, with its own story and few bosses that resets every week for example.
(hint for developpers: use previous living world updates to make a complete scarlet story raid)

@Yayuuu: You miss the point entirely. It is not about any one specific boss. It is about what instancing does in general to the population and the game’s culture. Dungeons and FOTM (which are all instances) contribute to an elitist and exclusive mindset where people can kick others that don’t match their criteria from their parties and increased willingness to deride others who don’t use certain builds and “strats”/exploits and speedspeedspeed = less patience in general.

That said, I wouldn’t mind other hard bosses which are tuned for numbers smaller than 100+ but larger than 5. The question is: where can we put them and how do we start them, if not in an instance?

I’ve seen this suggestion made in other posts, and it seems to be a direction worth exploring. Guild missions. They are set in the open world, still giving the opportunity to stumble across the event organically, but triggered by a guild. Guild members can qualify for rewards that other nonguildies do not get, yet nonguildies can help out alongside and get smaller partial rewards. Guilds should already have some social systems in place that make people more receptive to receiving build changing advice and so on.

Guild missions are naturally tiered, so it might be possible to choose at will scaling bosses tuned for a smaller sized guild or a larger one. (Say 8-10, 15-25, 35-50 people or whatever.)

There might have to be some anti-zerg mechanics to prevent a guild from just scheduling a mission and then inviting the whole of Lion’s Arch into their guild for the duration to zerg it down. Then again, this does take organization to achieve too. I’m sure more guilds would be prouder to take it down with their existing members (plus the odd stray or two.)

How is that elitist? Treating you rudely and making demeaning comments can be.

Jeromai, no one owes you anything though. No one has to take you into their party. You do not get to decide who takes you into a dungeon and who doesn’t.

Just as you want to play how you want, other people do to. Yes I can absolutely kick you if you’re not who I’m looking for.

I want an Ele with X, Y, and Z… If you join as a War with A, B, and C, I will kick you. You are not who I was looking for. This isn’t elitist. I really do not get how people think that they are entitled to control everyone else. Why should a single person have to bend to your will? You want to play a certain way? Great. Do it. You want me or my friends to play that way?

I don’t have to do that. Do not support content that forces me to play your way.

If content is instanced, you can play it however you like with however many people want to play it your way.

I’m not asking anyone to owe me anything. I’m not deciding for anybody anything. I’m merely expressing my opinion and providing alternative ideas. I have a right to express that.

You have a right to express your opinion.

I’m not controlling anyone, but I wonder if you’ve read your own words where you extort others to not support content that forces you to play a way you don’t like.

Ultimately, it is up to the designers and the devs to decide what systems they want to include in their game, but it is up to us to show varying perspectives of the game’s population in their forums.

I’m done as I’ve made my points and run out of constructive suggestions. Won’t be coming back to the thread, thanks.

The Devs specifically stated that bosses like the wurm are made for hardcore or elite players, who desire a challenge of strategy, skill, and cooperation out of this game. That being said, this kind of content is NOT made for casual players. There are 100s of bosses in GW2, and all but one thus far can be played and defeated by casual players. Well, here’s one for the hardcore players. Is there something wrong with that; putting different kinds of content into the game to suit different player levels and interest? Or should the needs and wants of more skilled players be ignored simply because they contradict your own?

If you accept the fact that this is not for casual players, and thus cannot be won with casual players muddling it up, then you would realize that this event cannot be done without control of who partakes. We need planning, leadership, and teamwork that requires the full dedication and attention of each player; a feat, that CANNOT BE ACCOMPLISHED ON A WORLD MAP, simply because we have no control of the players on that map.

And you know, its not even a matter of casual vrs. hardcore player -in all regards, I am a casual player- and as long as the player is reading chat, listening to and following directions, it doesn’t matter that they are a casual, they will still be an asset. But with a world map, you can’t insure that everyone in the event is going to cooperate, you can’t even insure that everyone on the map is going to join in the event. Unlike a party you can’t scout and gather a crew that will work hard and follow directions even if they are not the best of gamers, to make sure they know what they’re doing before you plunge in, nor can you kick them out when you find that they are not doing their part. You cant even arrange to play with your guild-mates and friends. Many players PvEing may be taking the spot of someone who could otherwise be there fighting at your side, pounding in the DPS that would make the difference between victory and defeat.

-So give us the power, allow us to make certain that regardless of their play skill, everyone involved will do their best, will actively listen and cooperate.
-allow us to plan ahead of time; to select leaders and strategies, to give roles and coordinate teams, to make certain everyone knows what to do.
-don’t ask us to preform a task that requires 100% map cooperation, unless we can insure that 100% of the map intends to play in the first place.

These are feats that can only be monitored by an INSTANCE. You can use the same system of overflows, except a “party only” overflow. This by no means excludes players, it just makes sure that they are all organized before they jump into the fray.

You could do this is by employing a system you already have. Strengthen Commander/squad, make that into a massive party system that can enter instances together, preform raids together. Then perhaps, people would actually join squads for once, and squad chat would be a helpful feature rather than a pointless one.

Xenon.4537:

I think the new Wurm fight proves and indeed begs that Anet can and should develop instanced raids for GW2. For big servers like Blackgate, Bloodtide coast has essentially stopped existing as an open world PvE map, and become a massive 150-man instanced raid, albeit with primitive organizational tools.

Think about that for a moment. Bloodtide Coast has become a raid with a 2 hour lockout, as opposed to other MMOs having 1 week lockouts, etc. Take that concept and refine it in your mind. Make it more manageable by the community; basically make the cap smaller (maybe 50 people?) and set it up so that it uses a large party system (evolve the commander/squad system?) instead of the current system of people “ferrying” others into the hardcapped map.

Take what Bloodtide Coast has become, refine it, put it in an instance like a dungeon which can accommodate multiple groups in different instances that are under your control rather than the hardcap limit of the open world map, etc. Anet could do this, the pieces are all there. I think it would please a lot of people, both the raiders and the non-raiders, because it would mean alleviating the congestion of open world maps while simultaneously giving raiders more control over organization.

Devs? Players? Thoughts?

This is not World of Warcraft, mmkay? This is Guild Wars 2.

Deso got the second kill, BG the first one for NA. As you can see no need for instances to do it, just practice by enough people…

And all that just after one week. I am sure Anet aimed for at least one month before the first kill.

Once a critical mass of players with enough experience in this event is hit, they can carry the new players just like it is happening for Tequatl. It will be similar with the wurm, although it will take longer, which is good and might not be a guranteed kill like Teq. everytime because of the 120 (actually 110 seconds) window for killing the heads.

Also a ninja HP ninja nerf will come anyway, to make people feeling they are doing better. Same happend for Tequatl whose HP were reduced as well.

Remeber the first kill when the remaining time was out of a sudden way larger then before? It’s not like the map cap is doing way more damange out of a sudden… It’s all part of Anets strategy here with hardcore content: make it easier after some time so more people get the feeling of accomplishment.

And one final word in instances: remeber when people where crying that AC is way too hard? Same problem, but this time it was an instance. Being an instance doesn’t mean a guaranteed victory. Similar with Arah. Practice is want it needs.

But the problem with hardcore instances is that new players will rarely cross the path of hardcore players anymore. That’s not good for a non-subscriber. It works very well for a subscription based MMO, but for GW2 it would be a total desaster.

Still, I would like to see new 10-20 man instances require coordination for people that like to run instances. Guild Missions so far did not really work out. They are just boring and people just do it for the rewards but do not really enjoy it. They need a full overhaul. This is probably were larger instances are coming in the future.

And in such an overhaul even the large scale open world bossed could be challenged as well, to provide people with an instanced version. But no achievement and no loot unique to these events is provide in a guild instances to keep the open world alive and make it living as it should be (we are still not there Anet).

TL;DR
Wurm will get killed more frequently as people are getting better at it. Ninja nerf will come anyway. Instances seperate the player base too much for a non-subscriber. Guild Missions need an overhaul anyway, including challenging hardcore world bosses, but without loot and achievements tied to the open world. And new instances for 10-20 coordinated player would be a welcome addition.

Shpongle.6025:

Xenon.4537:

I think the new Wurm fight proves and indeed begs that Anet can and should develop instanced raids for GW2. For big servers like Blackgate, Bloodtide coast has essentially stopped existing as an open world PvE map, and become a massive 150-man instanced raid, albeit with primitive organizational tools.

Think about that for a moment. Bloodtide Coast has become a raid with a 2 hour lockout, as opposed to other MMOs having 1 week lockouts, etc. Take that concept and refine it in your mind. Make it more manageable by the community; basically make the cap smaller (maybe 50 people?) and set it up so that it uses a large party system (evolve the commander/squad system?) instead of the current system of people “ferrying” others into the hardcapped map.

Take what Bloodtide Coast has become, refine it, put it in an instance like a dungeon which can accommodate multiple groups in different instances that are under your control rather than the hardcap limit of the open world map, etc. Anet could do this, the pieces are all there. I think it would please a lot of people, both the raiders and the non-raiders, because it would mean alleviating the congestion of open world maps while simultaneously giving raiders more control over organization.

Devs? Players? Thoughts?

This is not World of Warcraft, mmkay? This is Guild Wars 2.

That’s why the Open World bosses fail miserably.WoW proved that instance/raid concept is working perfectly and the harder content should be put there.So why Anet is trying to reinvent the wheel?!?!

Shpongle.6025:

This is not World of Warcraft, mmkay? This is Guild Wars 2.

Nice, instead of countering his argument by addressing his points, lets depreciate yours with a generic statement. Good Job. He brought important issues to the table, and you simply brush them off because you disagree with the means, well played.

No, this is not WoW… but that by no means indicates that it does everything better, that there aren’t things WoW does that would benefit GW2 greatly. Like it or not, it is a fact that this big, this complex of an event, is not suited for the chaos of ‘Open World’, when this ‘open world’ by its very nature, promotes each player to do as they will. A direct contradiction to the coordination that MUST exist for the event to succeed.

Some players are afraid instances would create exclusive events, would divide the world between the Elitist/hardcore who can beat it, and the Casual players who cant. But isn’t open world content doing the same? I can’t tell you how many people complain about being stuck in overflows, weak servers, or over populated servers, blaming their losses on these facts. Who complain about not being able to fight with their friends and/or guild mates. And you know, they’re right, they shouldn’t be EXCLUDED from victory because their world is weak or they’re stuck in an overflow, EXCLUDED from playing with their friends/guild because the map is full, EXCLUDED from playing on their own server, because the map is full.

By its own design, instance play would revoke these exclusions, more than that, for those casual players who feel they’ll never win, an instance would allow us to coordinate the contrary. If there is say a 50 man cap, we can stack it with 40 hardcore players, and 10 casual, we can carry them if we must -which is far more than we can afford to do with the current system. But I honestly don’t even believe that is necessary, for as long as you gather a group of individuals who are willing/enjoy working together, it wont matter if they are casual or hardcore; they will make it through with teamwork… which, once more, is more than we can say for the current system.

Just about every battle against the marionette, win or lose(unless it was a perfect run) I hear players blaming others for the groups set backs. ‘Its the ranger’s fault’, ‘WE NEED YOU TO READ’, ‘how can you not understand, its the simplest thing ever’, ‘kittening overflows’, ‘kitten guesting system’ the list goes on until I’m sick. They’ll come up with any fault but their own, and what it really comes down to is one phase twisted into hundreds of forms, “we could have won without you.” These world events are causing hate between hardcore and casual gamers, and the sad part, is that sometimes the casual gamers are not to blame. If a group of elitist -as many players are fond of calling each other- go into an instance together, who could they blame but themselves should they fail? They chose the team, they chose the strategy, and they chose who to led… but they came up short. The fault would be their own. There is no hate in that, no division of the GW2 community, so why must you pit us up against each other in open world?

As nice as instances might be for some content and whatnot, there is also an epic feel from succeeding with a bunch of people with no affiliation other than dedication to work together and get it done. Its also very cool when done in an open-world setting that you have explored before, and where there are actual impacts (like wurm attacks or whatnot).

Also, making instances is very technically difficult, especially when you want to allow as many as 30x the number of people in a 5-man dungeon. See they can create virtual instances for 5-man teams that use relatively few server resources, but that scales VERY quickly with number of people. Making instances also means that there could be many groups trying to fill up instances at the same time, as opposed to the current system which allows them to only make the overflows that are necessary.

Edit: To clarify, instances have many benefits, and open-world does too. Technical challenges can happen with their current setups for making more instances however, so it may not happen anytime soon, or even ever.

BlackBeard.2873:

As nice as instances might be for some content and whatnot, there is also an epic feel from succeeding with a bunch of people with no affiliation other than dedication to work together and get it done. Its also very cool when done in an open-world setting that you have explored before, and where there are actual impacts (like wurm attacks or whatnot).

Also, making instances is very technically difficult, especially when you want to allow as many as 30x the number of people in a 5-man dungeon. See they can create virtual instances for 5-man teams that use relatively few server resources, but that scales VERY quickly with number of people. Making instances also means that there could be many groups trying to fill up instances at the same time, as opposed to the current system which allows them to only make the overflows that are necessary.

Edit: To clarify, instances have many benefits, and open-world does too. Technical challenges can happen with their current setups for making more instances however, so it may not happen anytime soon, or even ever.

It would still be on the same map, only, a quarantined portion of it, similar to how personal story works. So it still has the real feel of ‘fighting in the world you’ve traveled through’. It could also operate like an overflow, only, a ‘party only’ overflow. As for that epic feeling of fighting with people you don’t know, this by no means denounces plugs as a variable, you can recruit people as you do for any other event. The only difference, is you get to talk and plan with them, and then start when you’re ready. Even if plugs die out, friends will still invite their friends, and I seriously doubt you know everyone they do.

to be honest, i dont really like high number instanced raids, I in fact prefer the open world techniques, though they need to be refined. while guilds premade still have an advantage because they can do big open world content on their own schedule, putting it instances is like a hard limit.

Mia Lunarfang.5826:

BlackBeard.2873:

As nice as instances might be for some content and whatnot, there is also an epic feel from succeeding with a bunch of people with no affiliation other than dedication to work together and get it done. Its also very cool when done in an open-world setting that you have explored before, and where there are actual impacts (like wurm attacks or whatnot).

Also, making instances is very technically difficult, especially when you want to allow as many as 30x the number of people in a 5-man dungeon. See they can create virtual instances for 5-man teams that use relatively few server resources, but that scales VERY quickly with number of people. Making instances also means that there could be many groups trying to fill up instances at the same time, as opposed to the current system which allows them to only make the overflows that are necessary.

Edit: To clarify, instances have many benefits, and open-world does too. Technical challenges can happen with their current setups for making more instances however, so it may not happen anytime soon, or even ever.

It would still be on the same map, only, a quarantined portion of it, similar to how personal story works. So it still has the real feel of ‘fighting in the world you’ve traveled through’. It could also operate like an overflow, only, a ‘party only’ overflow. As for that epic feeling of fighting with people you don’t know, this by no means denounces plugs as a variable, you can recruit people as you do for any other event. The only difference, is you get to talk and plan with them, and then start when you’re ready. Even if plugs die out, friends will still invite their friends, and I seriously doubt you know everyone they do.

the point of the open world isnt just aesthetics, its that you can wander over somewhere and see something exciting and interesting and participate in it. If its in an instance, that cant happen, and whatever is in the instances is not even observable by people who arent there.

You can create the planning and starting when you are ready via having pre events that start the actual mission. They already have dynamic events in game that are triggered by talking to an npc, or after doing a quick event.

I personally think large number player things should be in open world, and 5 man type stuff in instances.

Try doing the event in an overflow with 20 people. It doesn’t scale and is doomed to failure. Why bother? The event needs to be instanced.

phys.7689:

the point of the open world isnt just aesthetics, its that you can wander over somewhere and see something exciting and interesting and participate in it. If its in an instance, that cant happen, and whatever is in the instances is not even observable by people who arent there.

You can create the planning and starting when you are ready via having pre events that start the actual mission. They already have dynamic events in game that are triggered by talking to an npc, or after doing a quick event.

I personally think large number player things should be in open world, and 5 man type stuff in instances.

I would argue, that the point of an open world is the freedom to go and do whatever you want, so you’re not boxed-in like an arcade game, so you’re free to choose your own path and explore. However, this contradicts the point of a world event, in where one must take a scripted path, and complete scripted tasks as they are presented to you. There is no freedom in that, if you don’t preform in a certain manor, you don’t win. Sure, there is an infinite amount of strategies you can devise, but you MUST let the Amber wurm eat you, or all the strategies in the world will surmount to nothing. More to the point, there is no need for freedom, after all, you’re not going to explore or leave the area until you complete the event, so the ability to do so is pointless.

Yes, you can plan during the pre-event, but its one-sided. Regardless of what you say in map chat, those who don’t want to partake in the event, wont do so. And it wont matter how much planning you attempt if the people you are talking to are ignoring you or afk. Yet you are stuck with them regardless. In an instance, you can make sure everyone is alert and ready to cooperate before you jump in, in a party, you can kick them out if they are not.

guess what, if you dont use food buffs and proper gear/traits you cant kill the wurms and i hope the next world boss or raid bosses if they go intansed, are like the wurm where you need to have some knowledge of your class.

I really want instanced raids. Where there is no leaders or kicking people. Queued by first come first server, but you can queue kitten man party of up to 50 man squad if you have a commander.

I dont see why ppl dont want instances, the worm itself is something that requires hardcaped overflow which means that nobody else can join anyway, at least make it instanced so that people can be able to reconnect when they DC and also to shorten the spawn times!1!!!