Guild Wars 2

I don’t understand why anet won’t do a harder, instanced version tuned for a smaller number of players (20-30) in addition to a vastly easier open world version. I highly doubt the large events will die because everyone will be in the instanced version. Most people will NOT be in the instanced version, because they will lose in there. The loot could be the same – the only differences would be the ability to control the spawn time and the players present.

Wurm and Teq are not complicated, and Mari certainly isn’t; the problem is that as you add more people to the fight that do not know what to do or cannot play well, it becomes impossible for the skillful to compensate.

If you insist on keeping stuff like open world only, adjust the scaling so that it can be completed by fewer people. Consider the common man/woman in your scaling. Push him, but don’t break him, or he won’t come back. Marionette is already dead on my server – everyone decided guesting is the superior option. Wurm was abandoned day one. And these people, even when rallied, just don’t have it.

Give us 2 versions. Let everyone see and beat the world version. Let smaller groups fight the instanced beast.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Not at all. The Marionette was not designed to be beaten only by “elite” players. We have an idea of where the average player is skill-wise, and placed the bar where we hoped would just a tad above that, in the hopes that they would have to stretch a bit. That stretching creates tension, which is the sweet spot in event-type content as far as I’m concerned. (as opposed to the abnegation style smooth sailing content that most of an MMO needs to be.) Without the tension new things get boring faster. Too much tension, (as seems to be your case) and people give up and the content is wasted on them. That seems to be your argument about this event.

…

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult. On the other hand, we don’t know how long it takes for the aggregate skill level of the player-base to grow. I don’t know how long it takes for information about traits and builds to disseminate to those who had previously never looked into them. As with all our content, we are closely watching and noting these things so that every future project can learn from it.

P.S. Because several people brought up the idea of buffing the other platforms when one succeeds, I thought I ought to let you all know that this has always been the case. When one platform’s power regulator is destroyed the players on the platforms adjacent get Electrify Aura which gives 60 seconds of protection, swiftness, regeneration, fury, might, vigor and retaliation.

Except that the “Electrify Aura” doesn’t rez players. If another platform has already wiped (which is very likely, as it’s a bunch of random players that probably don’t really know the game mechanics as you just acknowledged…)

It’s not really fair to the rest of us decent players who are able to successfully clear our platforms EACH AND EVERY time, and then watch us fail overall because one or two platforms fail.

It’s really just bad design. Yes, I understand that you’re trying to “raise average player ability” but it’s overall detrimental to the rest of us.

Content like this would be entirely fair game for guild/raid style events where you can choose your entire group of 25 people. However, for open-world events, it just doesn’t work out very well.

I’ve played 5 times (always stuck in overflow) and never got past 2/5 (always managed to destroy the regulator on my own platform, though).

I’ve given up on it, since it’s pointless as I think average player level is well below what you expect it to be.

As a matter of fact, it was worse during the weekend. (Which is probably when the more “average” players get online.)

I must say that I also love the way ANet is heading with the latest updates to Living Story. It is the first of younger MMORPGs to succeed in creating a real server dynamics and social experience. I love how the Living Story succedes in creating that wonderful feeling that you are only one small part of a big army fighting something huge and that you are playing the game along with other players, not against them.

Latest bosses, starting with Tequatl, have been a good step toward more challenging and refreshing encounters while older world encounters were mostly boring with little to do aside stand and dps.

@Gene Archer.8560
Although I see some people complaining that content is too hard for them, and I can understand this, they must also understand that a MMORPG is tailored to millions of players and that not every part of the content must be tailored to their specific disabilies. There are also players who enjoy challenges and disserve challenging content as much as you think to be entitled to unchallenging one. Up to now, and to my taste, most of the game has not been challening as it can be brainlessly zerged, a few specific dungeons put aside.

You must also understand that fights such as the Marionnette one are meant as server events. The difficulty is set to an average level so that very skilled players compensate for lower skilled ones. This by itself should reinforce the community feeling as everyone can fit in. You would be right if the fight difficulty was set so high that it required to excluded lesser skilled players, but that is not the case for Marionnette. I think Josh Foreman explained it pretty well.

What most of the plaintifs fail to realise is that the shortcomings they see in the OoM update (and previous ones) are not really game shortcomings, but their own ones as players and as communities. In every game I have played, I have always seen people complaining that the games are bad and do not deliver what they expect, and everytime they failed to see that what they were longing for was right here, but they had to throw the hand out to grab it.

Server population too low to succeed on the Marionnette fight ? Don’t make me laugh, I don’t think there are server with less than 150 active people at a given time of the day. And even if there were some, ANet included server guesting. Morever, I don’t see how 125 people should be absolutely required when I already completed the Marionnette in Overflow servers without commander and way less than 100 players attending.
You should see these events as a chance to gather everybody in the same place, share a common feeling of victory, of overcoming the adversities, a chance to reinforce the bonds within your server communities.

@Snowblind.4371
I can’t disagree more and I think that you did not really get the way GW2 is meant to play (in PvE). GW2 is not meant to be played selfishly as, I would say, WoW. ANet clearly designed a game meant to emphasize social interactions, not a “Multiplayer Massively But I hate Seeing Other Players ORPG”. Such events have been a chance to me to teach other fellow ranger in the way of practicing our profession it was great time both for them and me. Most people are eager to learn as long as you are not rude with them and don’t coerce them. Lend a helping hand, the magic will happen and you will enjoy a stronger community able to withstand any challenge ANet throws at you.
Whatever efforts the developper put in, the game will always be only as good as the efforts you players are willing to put into building an enjoyable community. GW2 helps a great deal in this (and more than any other game at the moment, EVE put aside) by creating an almost competition free PvE content, but you have to do the remaining yourself.

I completely support Josh Foreman stating that these events will progressively bring up the players skill. And for Gene, this statement applies at the server scale, not each individual player. It may even give lower skilled players renewed interest in dungeons or other harder content than open world PvE. It was especially important since activities such as the Queen’s Dale champion train tends to lower newcomers skill level.

@Elbegast.6970
While you are right about the pleasure treacherous tactics can bring in in games such as EVE where they are meant to be part of the game, they are not in the spirit of GW2 PvE. I can only hope for ANet to ban players like you. If you enjoy EVE gameplay, go play EVE.

@Risingashes.8694
I concur to that suggestion but I suggest that the training program should not mandatory, only an option.

As a conclusion, thanks ANet for a great game with a unique approach to MMORPG and a wonderful feeling of playing as a community. I am confident that you are heading the right way with latest updates.

Gene Archer.8560:

Because that’s how you hardcore uber!elite tryhards treat it. If someone doesn’t fall in line with your level of skill, they’re trash to be tossed aside. MMO as a genre would be better if your kind didn’t exist, because you take every ounce of fun out of every game you touch. Gaming would be better without you or your ilk.

Dude, have you looked at my post history? I defend the casual player, I’m hated because I think ranger is more than viable and suppose ele is the best thing since sliced bread.

Seriously, I’m holding you to that. Now I have street cred. I’m an uber elite try hard! Now all you other uber elite try hards have to confess I have a point, I’m one of you!

Ahahahahahahaha~ ^-^

-popularity intensifies-

Josh Foreman.8250:

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult.

As of this writing my server (which is designated as having “Very High” population on the world select screen) has beaten Marionette exactly ZERO times. Does anything else have to be said?

Josh Foreman.8250:

Not at all. The Marionette was not designed to be beaten only by “elite” players.
-SNIP-

At least make it doable by small amount of people that scales accordingly. If we have lower than required amount of people doing the content (which is almost always the case in overflows) make the difficulty adjust accordingly. Given that less champions spawn in each lane with the number of people we have. But (and it’s a big one) when a champion spawns when we have 4-5 people in a lane, we might as well let him go because it’s not going down.
Understandable that we have tools available to us, but at the same time the skill average is not everyone’s skill level. It happened multiple times when I was the only one standing at the platform trying to finish the warden with everyone dead around me because of either traits missing as mentioned by you or simply running the Berserker Meta without being able to take a single hit from the enemy.
At the same time achieving specific achievements based on your land performance is down right cruel in many ways. Dependency is becoming more and more of an issue when you’re playing with people that are below the average skill level and taking it from simple math understanding, should be about half of the players in the world (given it’s evenly distributted and the skill gap is not that high). I think it would be more wise to use either Median or Average depending on which one is lower to create these types of events.
Regardless, the Mari event cannot be completed with less than desired amount of players, giving us the “well we’re definetly gonna loose now” type of feel. Teq was the same way. 80 players can defeat him, but the 80 players have to be either skilled at what they do or be willing to listen, which unless you’re in a very dedicated group is never the case. And last but not least, Wurm. From what I’m seeing, a vast amount of players in the world of Tyria will never see it go down. Not without everyone following orders. Which again, if you’re not skilled nor are willing to listen you will not only fail yourself, but you will drag a whole map of people with you. That kind of dependence is what make people turned off to the content, not the difficulty.
I myself slayed Mari few times. From what I saw, if the group is very well oriented and strategized, it’s quite simple and easy, but the moment a casual player wants to try the content out we seem to fail every time. And given the debuff of 5 minutes makes it so the players that could help out, simply can’t.

At the same time, I have to thank you for creating the reward system that actually benefits players overall regardless if they beat the boss or not. This is much more satisfying than the Wurm or Teq reward content at this point.

I have no problem with the difficulty of the Marionette event myself, then again i’m doing fractals quite alot and am used to chaleging content.

The problem is your average joe player who does easy casual content and barely knows what challenging content is then comes to Marionette and thinks they do amazing dps with bow and autofire.

So far i’ve done the event 6 or 7 times (in overflow mind you), most attempts were pretty organized), we lost every single attemp. Last one we lost at 4/5 chains because 1 team wiped on warden. We even had othe rlanes helping the weaker ones. Pretty frustrating to say the least.

I’m really kind of irritated by some of the comments in this thread claiming this content is “elitist” or “why can’t we have content that average players can do” in response to devs saying they want something a bit higher then average so people will grow and push themselves. Seriously? There is already content for the “average” folk. The whole open world for the most part is for average folk. So there is an issue now when adding something that pushes you a bit out of your comfort zone and now we must get rid of it because YOU don’t like it? Well, there are plenty of us who do like it and why shouldn’t we get content too.

And my server beats Marionette all the time. There are a number of servers that are the same. Even some of the overflows of late have been beating it. It’s really not that “elite.”

Hiya Josh,

For a casual event, I think the level of difficulty is at a great place, and you have done a great job at acchieving the goals you stated in your last post.

I believe that the problem with this event, and why it’s so difficult to finish it, is not the difficulty itself, but the very restricting victory conditions versus the nature of an open-world event.

No matter how many casual players become more skillful out of this, there will always exist a few randoms, who stumble upon or try the event for the first time, and compromise the entire server’s victory. This is because the event’s success is heavily tied to the weakest links – and all the other, better players can’t do much to prevent the situation.

I don’t think this event should be “nerfed” in difficulty. I think, however, that forcing all five groups to beat the champions is where the problem comes from. But I do agree that all five groups should do it successfully, in order to demand from the least skillful players to get better at the game. Does it feels like I’m contradicting myself? But I’m not: I think the problem comes from this part of the event, but this part of the event is not exactly THE problem.

My suggestion could be, that for each successful group at destroying a power generator, the bar goes down. (If this already happens, it’s not noticeable enough). This would allow the event to cycle back to lane 1 more easily, and give to players faith to keep going even after one lane fails. (It shouldn’t still decrease the bar enough to make this event cycle infinitely. If anything, I’d say that 4/5 groups should be able to destroy their power generators to, say, have the bar fill only 3/4s of what it otherwise would). I think most people currently leave because they lose faith that the event will be worth to continue for.

For future content, I think skilled players should be able to compensate for the less skilled players’ failures (and be slightly more rewarded for doing so, of course). Perhaps with additional, more optional content mechanics that are even more skill-demanding, which when successfully completed, they help to push towards the event’s success and compensate for the failure of the weakest players. (However, it should “push” towards that goal, not garantee it, so that the playerbase as a whole is still forced to improve their own skill and knowledge of the game).

TL;DR: Skilled players should have a bigger impact on pushing the event towards success than they currently do, but never have too much impact either, so that the playerbase as a whole is still forced to improve their own skill at the game.

Valor Singus.7049:

snip

The simple fact is that not all players value the same experiences. For example, while I found Tequatl to be frustrating because of the population issues, I thought the mechanics were pretty interesting, just like I think the Marionette mechanics are interesting. My fiancee, on the other hand, hated the entire Tequatl experience. She’s in it much more for the aesthetics of the game such as decorating her characters and the vista shots. Standing there whacking a dragon till its bar went away was boring, especially with the wait. For her, things like the initial Invasion and the Queen’s Jubilee have been her favorite events, because of rapid, epic scaled combat and large amount of loot, despite the content being considered “a mindless zerg”. Right now we’re both enjoying the Marionette, me for the mechanics and her for the lane defense and stacks of loot at the end.

Personally, I think ANet really just needs to interweave the two. Some LS content should have us hacking our way through endless mobs of bad guys every fifteen minutes, while other times we gear up and tackle a single Big Bad. SAB makes for a good breather episode, though I would try and avoid things like the Fractal update. (Then again, there are folks who love Fractals, but probably would skip the mindless zerg bits. Just goes to show, though.) This is going to end up turning into a large review post though, so I’ll end this here and start a new thread once I have the info dump ready.

The simple fact is that not all players value the same experiences.
Indeed. You include some nice examples of it.

Some LS content should have us hacking our way through endless mobs of bad guys every fifteen minutes, while other times we gear up and tackle a single Big Bad.
Is that not exactly what the Marionette event does? You defend in lane against an endless stream of mobs. As a bonus ArenaNet included some nice elements to prevent it from a mindless zerg event. You kill a big boss in the arena’s.

When I look at the two event (Marionette and 3 headed Wurm) I think ArenaNet did a good job, but there are still some things to improve.
To start with the Wurm:
The fact that this new world boss wasn’t killed in the first few days is good. It means it isn’t to easy. I like the mechanics.
But with the current Overflow mechanisme this type of encounters (also Tequatl) are not really working for me. I do not want to wait for almost 2 hours in a map, doing nothing, to have a decent change on success. Or to join a specific guild, get a taxi to a specific overflow and still have to sit for 30 minutes doing nothing. I thought putting this type of encounters in an instance would be a solution, but after I discussed this with my guild mates I see some major issues with this solution.

The Marionette event:
I like the mechanics. I like the short story instance in LA. I like the loot in the secret lair. As mentioned earlier in this topic the initial loot (from the lanes and from failed attempts) is not great and the distribution between the initial loot and the loot in the lair could be different.
For me the dificulty of the fight is fine. I don’t consider myself a hardcore player, but I am probably better than the average player. I did not have the problem of not having enough players to have a change on success. I did got frustrated during a few attempts by the failures from other players.
I do not think every LW release should contain this type of group events. But once in a while such an event is fine. When ArenaNet takes a good look at what worked and what not I think this event could prove very valuable.

Several issues with this whole concept.

I’m all for harder content. Optional, instanced, and controllable.

Marionette is a key part of your so called living world story content.. and that content should be open for everyone interested in it. Not gated by time, by population, by random shuffles of who gets on a platform or not.

You aren’t going to “make” people better at the game by forcing a “higher” level upon them to finish story content. Provide optional content for this. Instanced raids do allow a learning curve, since no experienced raid team is forced to team up with randoms to accomplish a thing. They can bring in a few, teach, or they can learn as a guild by working their way up tiers. No way is this happening here.

You don’t make players “better” by vitriol and namecalling. This thread shows plenty of it. So does the after “fail” map chat. Baddies, Casuals, PvE’rs, Noobs, Underlevels.

I’ve seen fails blamed on Zerker builds.. on Cleric builds.. on Rangers.. on anyone under level 80… on anyone not on TS….. on and on.

And then there is the “community building” phase of comments after. “You need to uninstall GW2, scrubs… This server takes fail to new levels of kitten. You bads need to stay out of the zone. If you aren’t on TS thanks for helping us fail” on and on.

A large portion of commentary in map chat would not survive being typed here.. because of “community standards”, so why a system that provokes and promotes this behavior?

You don’t build by being toxic. You don’t make better players by ridicule. You don’t make stories inclusive by being exclusive.

Anet developers need to be watching failed attempts to see just how poorly this has been implemented.

Note that I am not commenting on Wurm or Teq, both somewhat sideshows to the main story. I do think that non-instanced implementation is wrong, and scaling is a joke.. but its non-interesting content to me. I’ll fire up my EQ2 chars to raid if I ever feel like it again.

xarallei.4279:

I’m really kind of irritated by some of the comments in this thread claiming this content is “elitist” or “why can’t we have content that average players can do” in response to devs saying they want something a bit higher then average so people will grow and push themselves. Seriously? There is already content for the “average” folk. The whole open world for the most part is for average folk. So there is an issue now when adding something that pushes you a bit out of your comfort zone and now we must get rid of it because YOU don’t like it? Well, there are plenty of us who do like it and why shouldn’t we get content too.

And my server beats Marionette all the time. There are a number of servers that are the same. Even some of the overflows of late have been beating it. It’s really not that “elite.”

It’s all understood that they trying to help players with lack of skill grow and expand their gameplay, but don’t do it at the cost of fun of above average players. Being dependent on people that are either refusing to listen because they play “how they want” or are simply completely ignorant is down right frustrating. Especially on low pop servers where we don’t “beat Marionette all the time.” And that’s not because of difficulty, but because of players that are simply refusing to listen. Getting achievements done while being completely dependent on people like that is a non-sense (in reference to the dodging achievements at the pads).

Romo.3709:

At the same time, I have to thank you for creating the reward system that actually benefits players overall regardless if they beat the boss or not. This is much more satisfying than the Wurm or Teq reward content at this point.

In general, i agree. I still think that the victory reward might be a bit better, and that the rng behind the new stat set recipes is way too low. Especially since they are accessible only through this chest, and only for a short time (unlike celestial recipes, which dropped like crazy and could be farmed, or settler recipes which are not time-limited). Perhaps a vendor offering those, and some other stuff, in exchange for tokens from the event (cyphers?) appearing after the succesful win would have been a good idea.

xarallei.4279:

And my server beats Marionette all the time. There are a number of servers that are the same. Even some of the overflows of late have been beating it. It’s really not that “elite.”

Your server. Mine too. What you don’t get is that for every server that does this content, there is another that is simply unable to do so. Try to guest to some of those low pop servers and look for yourself. It’s not fun there, i tell you.
And yes, some of the overflows have been beating it. It’s been true on the first day of the event, it is true still.
Some. Because again, most don’t – and the number of succesful attempts in overflows does not seem to go up. I have not seen a succesful attempt on OF since day two of the event. Lately, I have seen however fails without cutting even the first chain (something that would have been impossible in the first days).
Basically – the fact that you are on a high pop server doesn’t mean that everyone is, or that event is easy.

Romo.3709:

It’s all understood that they trying to help players with lack of skill grow and expand their gameplay, but don’t do it at the cost of fun of above average players. Being dependent on people that are either refusing to listen because they play “how they want” or are simply completely ignorant is down right frustrating. Especially on low pop servers where we don’t “beat Marionette all the time.” And that’s not because of difficulty, but because of players that are simply refusing to listen. Getting achievements done while being completely dependent on people like that is a non-sense (in reference to the dodging achievements at the pads).

Don’t mean to be harsh but that sounds like an issue with your server community. Not the event itself. If even overflows are successfully doing this then your server should be able to pull it off. But as you say, “people aren’t listening.” It’s a different story if you are on a small server and don’t have the numbers. Yes, that is something Anet needs to address for sure (merge small servers). But if you actually have the numbers and people aren’t doing what needs to be done that doesn’t make the event bad. And it doesn’t mean Anet should remove it or never do these types of events. Because other servers are successfully doing these events and having fun.

Though I agree with you that the achievements themselves should be tweaked a bit to be a little less dependent on the behavior of other people. If you successfully dodge on the platforms you should get the achieve regardless of whether the whole thing fails or not.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hiya Josh,
No matter how many casual players become more skillful out of this, there will always exist a few randoms, who stumble upon or try the event for the first time, and compromise the entire server’s victory. This is because the event’s success is heavily tied to the weakest links – and all the other, better players can’t do much to prevent the situation.

Ah but that is where yoiu as a map of Pugs, or randoms need to step up and offer support to those players that simply stumble onto the map at any given time. More often than not the reason servers are failing marointte is becasue no one is offering encouragement to those who might be considered weaker players.

Being a lowbie or a weaker player isn’t the be all or end all folks. The more positive the attitude you keep in your TS/Vent/RC/Mumble the easier it is to get people to cooperate with you. Let’s be honest with yourself here, if you had someone yelling in your face and telling you that you suck 24/7 during the event what incentive do you have to try? Failing a platform is not the be all end all. If you can get your lanes to consistantly keep mobs from reaching the portal you have upwards of 7, that’s right 7! chances at the platforms. If you know a certain boss gives theplayers a hard time, keep explaining it in map before they go in, make sure people understand what’s happening while keeping the mood light.

Now I’ve beaten mario numerous times on OF because I try to instill a sense of community on the map, be it on main or OF. Get everyone reaching for a common goal. If you explain what you need done in voice and on the map and leave the insults you guys will win more often than not. Rmember that is is just a game and there is no ned to get stressed out. The more inclusive you are the funner it gets

Astralporing.1957:

Basically – the fact that you are on a high pop server doesn’t mean that everyone is, or that event is easy.

It is easy. The event is a great event. The problem here is NOT the event. The problem is that small servers need to be merged desperately.

Still no win after 20 tries!!! I never die and always complete my platform. Why is my enjoyment held hostage by baddies? Why do I have to afk for an hour in Main server just for a better chance because overflows are terrible?

cerulean moth.2743:

Still no win after 20 tries!!! I never die and always complete my platform. Why is my enjoyment held hostage by baddies? Why do I have to afk for an hour in Main server just for a better chance because overflows are terrible?

Right with ya there. After 20ish tries with only one platform loss, I’m not thinking “I should get better” I’m thinking “I’m sick of this kitten, I’ll just go play something else”.

I absolutely love how the event is designed as mentioned by several others before however it slowly grows frustrating because after one week of trying it everyday (so around 12-15 times) I was not lucky enough to be in a winning group. In the first few events I saw an improvement with champ 2 which shows that people ARE learning, but that was it then… after that everytime champ no. 3 was the end. Sometimes I was on a winning platform, sometimes I was the only one standing or the platform was completely wiped. So I still have to see champ 4 and 5 and of course still have to see the marionette being defeated. It wasn’t because of lack of communication (5 great commanders, teamspeak) or not enough people. I don’t know about the skills of the people but it should be doable even if you are not perfect. And therefore champ 3 is mcuh too difficult from my pov.

Such a hard event is great if it is permanent and people have time to learn and can take a break if it is to frustrating, but it is going away AND part of the living story. If I’ll never beat it that is the end for “my” living story then because I am dead

It is also great if Anet learns from this event for the future but that’s useless for this event.

Gene Archer.8560:

Mank.2183:

Then this content is not for you.

This entire game was never for you. It was supposed to be easier and more casual. Not another WoW Raidfest.

Mank.2183:

Difficult content is sorely needed,

No, it’s not.

Mank.2183:

Just sit this one out, it’s blatantly obvious this is not for you, so realise this and stop forcing your opinion onto others that play to challenge and improve themselves.

If you want a relaxing experience there’s plenty of other options for you. Like singleplayers.

If you want challenge, there is literally every other mmo out there. There’s even Korean Grinders for you to gnash your teeth at. I shouldn’t be relegated to singleplayer games just because I want something easy.

Furthermore, do challenge seekers sit out the easy content? No, they do it in two hours and then complain that it wasn’t challenging. Why should I have to sit out content while they get to do easy content, complain about it, and then also get hard content that excludes people?

You have a lot of nerve to tell me not to force my opinion on others only to then force your opinion on me.

I’ll say this much on that: At least when I want an easy game, it doesn’t exclude anyone from experiencing the content or the rewards.

GW2 was never supposed to be easy or casual, it was supposed to be accessible. And it is, the only problem you have is you downright refuse to improve. That’s not the games fault, and no matter what you think, games IRL and virtual are all about improving, improving personal skills, teamwork, player relations, and seeing progression.

Harder content is needed. I do not mean incredibly harder, I mean content that engages players a lot more, encourages communities, and gives people a reason to log on more often excited for what they’re about to do. Marionette and Wurm did that, and you want the game so easy it potentially removes that?

I do not enjoy grinds either, so you won’t see me in a korean mmo. I’ve played many mmos, and have already experienced a lot of hard, exclusive content. GW1 and 2 are the ones I enjoy the most, and I expect the same level of challenging content in GW2 as there is in GW1.

I’m not forcing anything, I suggested options. You have a lot of nerve to expect everything in an mmo to only be catered to your liking, and once something you don’t like comes up you stomp your feet screaming “no no no I refuse to improve, make it easy” when the natural progression of games is skill/gear improvement through challenges.

No one is excluded, people like you are just giving up because you can’t spam buttons and succeed first try. Do you honestly believe unsuccessful encounters mean players are being excluded? Time, and gear gating is excluding, and there’s none of that. Even overflows full of randoms and no commanders are beating marionette, so stop this nonsense. You’ve had a year of easy gaming, and one difficult boss after all this time is unacceptable?

PowerGamer.2874:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult.

As of this writing my server (which is designated as having “Very High” population on the world select screen) has beaten Marionette exactly ZERO times. Does anything else have to be said?

Your server needs to coordinate and you need to juggle around players. Whichever chain your server is having most of the problems with, send experienced players at that lane. IMO the inexperienced players need to always be in lane 1, since the first chain is the easiest to succeed at.

The problem with challenging open world content is that the rest of the game basically teaches you to be bad. From day 1 players have been zerging in PvE and bypassing mechanics because of it. I used to see groups of around 10 players sitting outside of world events requesting for more people because they thought a huge zerg was a requirement. I don’t know if they were just bad or didn’t know about scaling, but a lot of them were hesitant when I would start soloing the event right in front of them. Earlier today I saw one of the platforms for chain 2 saying they had no chance of beating the champ because they only had 3 people.

If they didn’t heavily nerf the difficulty during the betas, the game could have turned out very differently. However, zerging would have just become a requirement for many people, but soloing solo content is already discouraged anyways.

If they want to take a zerg of players and challenge them in smaller groups, like what the Marionette is doing, then they’re going to have to discourage large zergs in general. They should have never implemented an uncapped personal looting system. If only 5-10 players were eligible for loot, zergs would break up.

Luckily I beat marionette on the first try, but doing it again failed, once because someone failed in the 5 group fights, and once because I was in overflow, and there were only 20 people in.

The second reason is easiest to fix. Don’t start a 100 person event unless theres 100 people to do it. Get rid of stupid timers, and only trigger an event when conditions demand it. That could be 5 people pushing seperate buttons at the same time to indicate readiness, for example.

For many of us, the issue comes back to active server population numbers.

It has nothing to do with the difficulty (unless you count server recruitment as part of the fight). We want hard fights. Many servers just dont have the numbers to consistently tackle the fights they are putting in the game, meaning people are left out or have to resort to guesting (which causes a whole new set of issues – but is absolutely necessary or people would never even get the chance).

It is no accident that the world firsts for both Tequatl and the Worm came from two of the most highly populated servers worldwide.

Ok if casual players are required to be so skilful, why do you nerf every build that becomes viable or popular?
Casual players have a hard time keeping up to all the gear/skill nuance changes at every turn.They don’t want to spend their time having to research their build every time they log in.
They could also be better equipped if the mats for their gear wasn’t so ridiculously overpriced from being required for ascdended also.
So before you all start expecting so much from them how about giving them a stable environment in which to work.
Is that too much to ask Josh?

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hiya Josh,

For a casual event, I think the level of difficulty is at a great place, and you have done a great job at acchieving the goals you stated in your last post.

I believe that the problem with this event, and why it’s so difficult to finish it, is not the difficulty itself, but the very restricting victory conditions versus the nature of an open-world event.

No matter how many casual players become more skillful out of this, there will always exist a few randoms, who stumble upon or try the event for the first time, and compromise the entire server’s victory. This is because the event’s success is heavily tied to the weakest links – and all the other, better players can’t do much to prevent the situation.

I don’t think this event should be “nerfed” in difficulty. I think, however, that forcing all five groups to beat the champions is where the problem comes from. But I do agree that all five groups should do it successfully, in order to demand from the least skillful players to get better at the game. Does it feels like I’m contradicting myself? But I’m not: I think the problem comes from this part of the event, but this part of the event is not exactly THE problem.

My suggestion could be, that for each successful group at destroying a power generator, the bar goes down. (If this already happens, it’s not noticeable enough). This would allow the event to cycle back to lane 1 more easily, and give to players faith to keep going even after one lane fails. (It shouldn’t still decrease the bar enough to make this event cycle infinitely. If anything, I’d say that 4/5 groups should be able to destroy their power generators to, say, have the bar fill only 3/4s of what it otherwise would). I think most people currently leave because they lose faith that the event will be worth to continue for.

Pretty much this. I think right now if 3-5 out of 25 platforms fail, the whole event is failed. That is up there with a random dice roll in terms of the chance of success, given the lack of control over who ends up on what platform.

Blaeys.3102:

For many of us, the issue comes back to active server population numbers.

It has nothing to do with the difficulty (unless you count server recruitment as part of the fight). We want hard fights. Many servers just dont have the numbers to consistently tackle the fights they are putting in the game, meaning people are left out or have to resort to guesting (which causes a whole new set of issues – but is absolutely necessary or people would never even get the chance).

This is the issue I keep pointing out. The small servers need a merge. This will help everyone. The small servers will then have the numbers to pull off the event and will stop guesting on the larger servers. Which will hopefully lead to less overflow problems.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Without the tension new things get boring faster. Too much tension, (as seems to be your case) and people give up and the content is wasted on them.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult.

With a single success (home servers) vs. a dozen failures (overflows) I’d say that tension shifted to frustration pretty soon. Things like camping home server for more than an hour, like people who don’t speak English in overflows and don’t read chat/guides pile up and result in a phenomenon: once you defeat Marionette a single time, you just don’t feel like torturing yourself anymore (even if you still need the /cheer achievement). I like the boss and the event, I just don’t like the pressure which comes from technical problems and a part of the community. Easy things do get boring fast, hard things are challenging, but unpredictable things get slightly boring even before being done and a lot straight after it.

Josh Foreman.8250:

P.S. Because several people brought up the idea of buffing the other platforms when one succeeds, I thought I ought to let you all know that this has always been the case. When one platform’s power regulator is destroyed the players on the platforms adjacent get Electrify Aura which gives 60 seconds of protection, swiftness, regeneration, fury, might, vigor and retaliation.

That was really nice to hear (no sarcasm), but this feature missed: by the time good platforms has finished their part of the job, that-one-unfortunate-platform had usually already wiped.

In my opinion, the Marrionette is in a perfect place. I have actually used it as a “teaching moment” to talk to players about builds and changing things based on the fight (explaining to players that I actually carry every single weapon on my guardian and why I do that as well as several different types of armor). I’ve also used the time to explain the different fights for newer players and how to defeat each warden (rather than just saying “go read dulfy and come back when you are ready” as many people seem to think is the right thing to say.

I dont have a commander tag (I play all of my alts and don’t know which one to put it on), but I was actually treated as a commander in one of our attempts (no one with a commander tag was there) and we got 4-5 chains down and were 4-5 platforms on the final warden 2 times before we failed….I considered that a victory even though it was a loss, and everyone else was doing a good job of congratulating people on the close attempt….

Was it frustrating to lose because 1 platform failed twice….yes it was, but at the same time I knew we could do it…and the majority of the same people stuck around over the next 2 hours to try again (some left, changed their specs / weapons and came back)….and we succeeded on the next attempt! We had no TS, no organization or strategy outside of mapchat. I really did feel like people learned something from the fight and the advice of more veteran players. (I had so many direct questions I could barely keep up with answers).

Now Teq and Wurm on the other hand I think are completely wrong for the open world and wrong for the majority of the player base….they cannot be accomplished by a group of players who just get together and talk over the strategy in the map chat….those require experience with the fight…multiple experiences with the fight in order to learn…and that is something the “average” player will not have without doing the fight multiple times.

I use a casual friend as a gauge. I can convince him to try the marrionette, and with some instruction he usually does pretty well (about 50% of the time dead on the platform)…but he does well enough to want to try again. He will not go near either Tequatl or the Wurm after his first two attempts at those.

Part of the problem with Teq and the Wurm is the utter lack of progress if you are not doing well. People who know the battle know that the majority of Teq’s HP’s come off really quickly after you get rid of the 1st 1/4. It is the same with the wurm, once those first bombs (or debuffs) go down, it goes down quickly….but until you get that part done right, it is frustratingly slow…which discourages people.

People with both of those events pointed out that after a week, they can still only get it down to about 95% or 85% of health even after multiple tries…and they called the events “impossible”

For future events like these I think the devs should reverse how they look at damage. Make the first 50% go fast, and then let the baddy develop resistances as the battle goes on so that the fight gets harder and harder, rather than easier and easier…this provides the psychological effect of positive re-enforcement for the fight.

People would have a sense that they are accomplishing something….“We got him down to 50% on our first try!” which would make them try harder the next try “We’ll get him next time.”

Rather than “we barely scratched him after 15 minutes” and the inevitable “this is impossible since we barely hurt him”.

Psychologically, people are more open to trying again if they see actual progress.

Moshari.8570:

Now Teq and Wurm on the other hand I think are completely wrong for the open world and wrong for the majority of the player base….they cannot be accomplished by a group of players who just get together and talk over the strategy in the map chat….those require experience with the fight…multiple experiences with the fight in order to learn…and that is something the “average” player will not have without doing the fight multiple times.

I don’t see anything wrong with this. If events can be failed, and their failure leads to different world states, I think it makes the game more interesting by adding a sense of life to the game. All of a sudden our capabilities as heroes of Tyria matter to the world. If all encounters could be beat the first time without practice, then it wouldn’t matter if events had these fail states as they would never be possible.

I don’t think the game is in this state yet. The consequences for failing Tequatl, the Wurm, and the Marionette are mild at best. The consequences for succeeded are equally transparent. However, should Arena Net carry through with the suggestions made in the Living World CDI, then events that are challenging and capable of failure are necessary for giving player’s actions a sense of purpose in the world.

I think going forward events like these should have their failure conditions moved to things players feel like they have more control over. They should also have a means of easily gauging progress toward learning the encounter. Timers are a poor means of communicating challenge as it feels like skill is not the determining factor in winning the encounter just DPS. Though this is just a feeling and not actually true, the Marionette offers a better mechanic for a challenging encounter that can fail through the minion waves. Under the hood it is still a DPS race vs a timer (as you must kill the energizing mobs before they reach the end of the lane). However, you as a player have more tools to control this failure (e.g., cripple, chill, immobilize, walls).

So anet makes an absolutely beautiful and intricate mmo with NEW and FREE content every two weeks and you scrubs complain about it being too difficult!? I can’t even comprehend how you could come onto their forums and complain about this when you obviously haven’t played half of the content the game has to offer. If you had even tried wvw pvp or even dungeons more than once you would easily have the skill level to play the marionette. At the very least be respectful. If you can’t take the time to learn how to actually build a character and learn how to play the game anet put SO much work into then you don’t have the right to say that the game is anything besides breathtaking. If this game feels like work to you, how hasn’t Darwinism killed you off yet? As for the actual event, it’s awesome and made the community better imo. The only suggestion I have is by some means clear the map of all the players before the event starts. It would eliminate people waiting for hours because they would know the map would clear before the event anyway.

Edit: if you put so much work into something, would you rather tailor it to people who can’t figure out how traits work or the people who know the game inside and out?
TL;DR: if gw2 is too hard go play simon says.

SirMoogie.9263:

I think going forward events like these should have their failure conditions moved to things players feel like they have more control over. They should also have a means of easily gauging progress toward learning the encounter. Timers are a poor means of communicating challenge as it feels like skill is not the determining factor in winning the encounter just DPS. Though this is just a feeling and not actually true, the Marionette offers a better mechanic for a challenging encounter that can fail through the minion waves. Under the hood it is still a DPS race vs a timer (as you must kill the energizing mobs before they reach the end of the lane). However, you as a player have more tools to control this failure (e.g., cripple, chill, immobilize, walls).

I have stated this many times…and Agree wholeheartedly, Timers have no place in a “living” world. Does Tequatl have a dinner appointment? Do the Wurms have a hot date that they absolutely must get to? Live or Die should depend on factors of the fight, not whether an arbitrary clock counts down….that is also why I love the marionette. On one fight we had over the weekend, we were able to get through 2 complete rotations of all 5 lanes…it was AMAZING defense coupled with really crappy offense (since we lost even after all 5 lanes went in twice)….we were all seriously cheering the defense part though since that was the furthest I (and everyone else there) had ever seen the defense last. The fight was lost because we were just concentrating on the defense….and in total the fight lasted over 1/2 hour….if we had a timer it would have been lost much earlier. It was still an awesome fight because WE determined the outcome, not an arbitrary number of minutes.

Timers create a different type of pressure than something like the Marionette’s mechanic. They are both equally valid ways to pressure players and create difficulty, and both have merits in different scenarios.

somewhatsavage.9753:

So anet makes an absolutely beautiful and intricate mmo with NEW and FREE content every two weeks and you scrubs complain about it being too difficult!?

I find the content annoying due to people there. I know im playing MMO thank You very much for emphasize this on each and every occasion but Open world content with this whole overflow mess is just bad design. In order to get to my own server i need to be 1h ahead of time. Then i need to hope that ppl there know what to do and how to use their class so they don’t melt in 2 seconds.

This content may divide player base on servers and i don’t think that was the plan. I agree this should be locked into instance so we wouldn’t have to sit over 1h to give it another go just not to loose our spot on main(home) server.

Also drop the tone, there is plenty on mmos coming out that may draw away some player base.

Josh Foreman.8250:

snip

Well I had my share of wins and fails so let me hammer this in your brain for the future.

Why exactly do you have to give those people the learn to play lection during a world boss? Cram them in a single player instance and if you have to throw at them a fullscreen message to change the 7-0 abilities or spend their traitpoints. The chance that they will actually improve instead of whining, moaning, kittening, and crying seems pretty much zero to me no matter what, so can you do me a favor and get them out of my way?

I used to tell people what to do during and before the encounter for several days.
I witnessed people with champions at 10% trying to rezz full dead bodies instead of killing it while the timer ticked down from 60 seconds.
I saw people getting annihilated by facetanking the 2nd champion.
I was astonished as they ran full circles with him instead of luring it into the mines.
I don’t want to mention how many have blown themselves to pieces with confusion.
And much more.

Now draw a picture of Average Joe.
Would you want him at your side?

Oh, and just for the record, only one win was pugstyle. And even there we had 3 failed chain phases.

ClumsyPanda.6897:

somewhatsavage.9753:

So anet makes an absolutely beautiful and intricate mmo with NEW and FREE content every two weeks and you scrubs complain about it being too difficult!?

I find the content annoying due to people there. I know im playing MMO thank You very much for emphasize this on each and every occasion but Open world content with this whole overflow mess is just bad design. In order to get to my own server i need to be 1h ahead of time. Then i need to hope that ppl there know what to do and how to use their class so they don’t melt in 2 seconds.

This content may divide player base on servers and i don’t think that was the plan. I agree this should be locked into instance so we wouldn’t have to sit over 1h to give it another go just not to loose our spot on main(home) server.

Also drop the tone, there is plenty on mmos coming out that may draw away some player base.

In the same paragraph you criticize my post while ignoring the only suggestion I made which had to do specifically with waiting for the events. There won’t be large instances no matter how much you whine about it. It’s not where they want to go with the game. But just for fun you could suggest they add large scale instances a couple hundred more times without thinking of a single alternative.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Timers create a different type of pressure than something like the Marionette’s mechanic. They are both equally valid ways to pressure players and create difficulty, and both have merits in different scenarios.

I agree, but there is a psychological game here as well. Short timers seem to get the blame for a failure, instead of player skill when timers are involved. While in the marionette event player skill seems to be blamed more for failures; rather than minions running too fast or them providing too much energy to the cannons.

“Knowing is half the battle” is a fallacy

Another reason I don’t favor timers is that they are immersion breaking. I’d like GW 2 to move to a more organic experience, like the one EQ Next is promising to offer. In such a world enemies actions will “make sense” form a lore perspective. From a lore perspective it doesn’t make sense for Tequatl to flee a battle he is winning. What would make sense is for him to have the destruction of the weapon that’s killing him as his focus (i.e., the megalaser), and if that is destroyed then the event fails. The multitude of failures in the Marionette encounter demonstrate that minions getting to an objective can cause failure. After Tequatl wins it also doesn’t make sense for him to flee either. He needs to stick around and attack the zone. I’ve described such improvements to the encounter here

Moshari.8570:

SirMoogie.9263:

I think going forward events like these should have their failure conditions moved to things players feel like they have more control over. They should also have a means of easily gauging progress toward learning the encounter. Timers are a poor means of communicating challenge as it feels like skill is not the determining factor in winning the encounter just DPS. Though this is just a feeling and not actually true, the Marionette offers a better mechanic for a challenging encounter that can fail through the minion waves. Under the hood it is still a DPS race vs a timer (as you must kill the energizing mobs before they reach the end of the lane). However, you as a player have more tools to control this failure (e.g., cripple, chill, immobilize, walls).

I have stated this many times…and Agree wholeheartedly, Timers have no place in a “living” world. Does Tequatl have a dinner appointment? Do the Wurms have a hot date that they absolutely must get to? Live or Die should depend on factors of the fight, not whether an arbitrary clock counts down….that is also why I love the marionette. On one fight we had over the weekend, we were able to get through 2 complete rotations of all 5 lanes…it was AMAZING defense coupled with really crappy offense (since we lost even after all 5 lanes went in twice)….we were all seriously cheering the defense part though since that was the furthest I (and everyone else there) had ever seen the defense last. The fight was lost because we were just concentrating on the defense….and in total the fight lasted over 1/2 hour….if we had a timer it would have been lost much earlier. It was still an awesome fight because WE determined the outcome, not an arbitrary number of minutes.

Sounds like you have a case of every other lane failing the platform phase, would have been a interesting spectacle.

And yes, i have pretty much stated the same about those world boss timers since day one. Those buggers should come and go depending on objectives they are trying to achieve, not because some egg timer goes buzzing.

I think I’ve played the boss about 4 times, failed every time. My lane always succeeded, but most of the others would fail. Rather unfortunate, and off putting since I have no control over who I do the content with.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Timers create a different type of pressure than something like the Marionette’s mechanic. They are both equally valid ways to pressure players and create difficulty, and both have merits in different scenarios.

Nope, not equal. Timers count down no matter if you play offensive or defensive. Now if both sides could score points, and the one with the most wins at end of timer, then it may well be the equivalent. This because then the potential winner can switch from offensive to defensive when holding the higher score. But with a automatic loss for one side, it forced said side to be constantly on the offensive.

And honestly, this is why this game see so much zerg and zerk mentality. Because so much of the content favors a ball to the wall offensive approach. This because of timers, combat mechanics and similar.

Sure it produces tension and suspense, but it also cause stress. And stress makes people overlook details. And thus we have things like people failing to notice certain quirks with the event mechanics and similar, because they can’t catch a breather as they are on the clock.

How about having it so that when a power regulator is destroyed, the people on that platform are allowed to ride the lightning to another platform to help out? The biggest challenge on this event isn’t the lane defense or warden mechanics. Those are a welcome challenge, but not the one stopping me from having a victory. The challenge stopping me from victory is the one of random distribution. Every single time I’ve done the event there’s been a platform that doesn’t have enough people to succeed while other platforms are done with a minute to spare.

Thyrm.8352:

Now draw a picture of Average Joe.
Would you want him at your side?

I would take an average Joe all the time

Gene Archer.8560:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this?

I truly wish devs and players alike would stop trying to force other players to “get better at the game”.

If the average players wants to improve their skills, they will improve their skills. What you’re trying to do is force people to improve their skills. And yes, it is forcing because if they don’t get better, then they don’t get to take part in the content and take part in the rewards.

High failure isn’t fun. Tension isn’t fun. Feeling hopelessness and dread because your server can never muster the numbers to have a shot at success isn’t fun. Feeling like you’re being forced to get better isn’t fun.

There are still so many issues like server population that you guys just aren’t taking into account, and yet you’re still trying to make these gigantic events that require more and more skill each time. Eventually, you’re going to be excluding too many players all in the name of “challenge” and “skill”.

If you play a game that just lets you win without requiring skill or getting better at the game then what is the point of playing a game? Watching numbers go up? I’m glad this event is kicking casual players in the butt and making them want to get better at the game. All the servers could use that.

Gene Archer.8560:

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

Once again what is the point of playing a game if you don’t want to get better at it? Do you enjoy mindlessly smacking NPC mobs until you get a big gold star reward for being a special little boy? If so stick to that content that you enjoy and people that enjoy a challenge can stick to those. Just because you’re not skilled enough to get some reward from challenges doesn’t mean you need to complain about it to everyone. If you want it get better, if you don’t then go back to pve land. All the achievements around this event don’t even require you to complete the marrionette. You can finish the meta without doing that….

El Diablo.1483:

…snip Just because you’re not skilled enough to get some reward from challenges doesn’t mean you need to complain about it to everyone. If you want it get better, if you don’t then go back to pve land. All the achievements around this event don’t even require you to complete the marrionette. You can finish the meta without doing that….

Just so you’re clear here the two events that were added are in pve land.

Also, forcing casual players to conform to “getting better” or leaving will result in a very empty world.

edit: clarity

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

Its called Fractals. Thats where I learned the importance of dodging / trait swapping (and skill swapping for each boss), positioning, even weapon swapping for different abilities vs different foes, and at higher levels it is harder content.

However, because it’s hard and requires things like the above, most people don’t do it. I have a friend who is adamant that he does not need to change skills / armor / weapons/ etc no matter what he does in the game …some will never learn….I honestly hate doing dungeons or anything with him since typically he spends more time getting healed than doing damage to our opponent…those people will always exist in the game…and will always still try to do this content…and get frustrated when they fail. I’ve talked until I was blue to him about dodging and swapping skills and etc…he doesn’t care, his attitude is that he shouldn’t have to do that (“think” to play the game) so he wont.

I think this kind of content is more fun to design than to play. I’ve been sitting it out because it truly has no appeal to me whatsoever.

Meanwhile, its effect on the community seems to be to fragment it into ever smaller and increasingly contentious factions.

Is this really fun?

Gilgalas.7860:

Server population too low to succeed on the Marionnette fight ? Don’t make me laugh, I don’t think there are server with less than 150 active people at a given time of the day. And even if there were some, ANet included server guesting. .

Server guesting is a bandaid at best with its own problems. As for not making you laugh?

Come on over to Devona’s Rest and then tell me that the server population is just fine. In fact, every single player that thinks server populations are just fine, please. Come to Devona’s Rest. Maybe then the server will have the numbers it needs.