Guild Wars 2

Xae Isareth.1364:

What we do is the Mesmer ….

Do it without a mesmer and without a guardian.
If there is no need for roles, then there is no need for a specific class. One would assum that. But that just don’t work. There are instances and paths you can do with same skilled/armoured 5 full zerk warriors and they are instances/paths you just can’t.
The content in this game is not designed for the approach that says “every combination of classes can do every content”. The content is designed for class-roles, but the classes aren’t designed that way. That’s the real problem with the question about the trinity.

haviz.1340:

That’s not hard content at all.

Then give an example pls, what is a hard conent in your opinion.
I dont like if people just say “that’s not hard content at all”. It has been said in this thread, that “pro gamer” are not the majority in the game. We running all paths in all instances and for us they are not so hard content anymore, but if we are only 4 in our group we like to take a newbie as the 5th one, because they make much less mistakes as most of the self-proclaimed pros.

haviz.1340:

Why would anyone would do high level fractals that do not reward you with anything if not for challenging himself. And if you do something for challenge and reroll because certain fractal is too hard or you glitch bosses (mossman for instance) it puzzles me to great extent. Especially when volconic fractal end fight is one of the best designed boss encounter.

Good question, but i’m the wrong addressee. I said how it is in most of the cases if you join a high lvl fractale group. How ever, in my opinion all of the higer level fractals are extremly poor designed, without exception.
Putting tons of mobs that do more damage and have a bigger life-pool is not a good desing. it is not even a design. The only real difference between lower and higher level fractals can be expressed with the number of mobs you have to kill. No really new game mechnics, no new strategies. just more mobs.

Sitael.4680:

Then give an example pls, what is a hard conent in your opinion.
I dont like if people just say “that’s not hard content at all”. It has been said in this thread, that “pro gamer” are not the majority in the game. We running all paths in all instances and for us they are not so hard content anymore, but if we are only 4 in our group we like to take a newbie as the 5th one, because they make much less mistakes as most of the self-proclaimed pros.

This might be really bad example but let’s try it anyway. Four kitten golems in uncategorized fractal are a joke. You can burst them in seconds, even at 48. But at 79 they are much more resilient to that and you actually have to dodge (can’t use reflections against Scrufflebut). One of the way to deal with them is to use a lot of cc.

Sitael.4680:

Good question, but i’m the wrong addressee. I said how it is in most of the cases if you join a high lvl fractale group. How ever, in my opinion all of the higer level fractals are extremly poor designed, without exception.
Putting tons of mobs that do more damage and have a bigger life-pool is not a good desing. it is not even a design. The only real difference between lower and higher level fractals can be expressed with the number of mobs you have to kill. No really new game mechnics, no new strategies. just more mobs.

I was talking about the boss encounter, not mobs. And most fractals do not get more mobs at higher levels, mostly dredge clown car do.

If they are all poorly designed why do you even play them? There’s no reward for that.

And one last thing, pugs usually do not communicate well. That doesn’t promote creativity of new strategies. CC can’t be used randomly in this game, you need a plan for that. Before 15th October patch you could coordinate and immoblize Shoggroth in Arah1 to completely deny his hiding. Fixed groups are more likely to figure out new tactic.

haviz.1340:

Sitael.4680:

Then give an example pls, what is a hard conent in your opinion.
I dont like if people just say “that’s not hard content at all”. It has been said in this thread, that “pro gamer” are not the majority in the game. We running all paths in all instances and for us they are not so hard content anymore, but if we are only 4 in our group we like to take a newbie as the 5th one, because they make much less mistakes as most of the self-proclaimed pros.

This might be really bad example but let’s try it anyway. Four kitten golems in uncategorized fractal are a joke. You can burst them in seconds, even at 48. But at 79 they are much more resilient to that and you actually have to dodge (can’t use reflections against Scrufflebut). One of the way to deal with them is to use a lot of cc.

So we can say the game is fine because at fractal lvl 79 control finally has an important role? Yes, it is a bad example. Please provide one that reflects the reality of the majority of the player base where roles (specialization into support or control) are needed/used and justified.

Mesket.5728:

You again are measuring effectiveness in terms of DPS which only applies for speed runs and I’m sorry but that is not the meta of the game. It is something players made up because there is no real challenge left and it’s a pattern that repeats in other games as well when content its over: What do we do? do it faster… But still, this is not a racing game.

It might not be the meta, but it is the most relevant mode of discussing this. Because to random PUGs, it doesn’t make that much of a difference anyway, they’ll still be slow and bad, even if tanking, healing and CC would be overhauled. It would still be the speedclear community that would figure out the best strategies and how to use the new overhaul in a most optimal way.

Mesket.5728:

What if you had a stat that would make your might and fury better than other player’s might and fury? Your conditions removal skills to remove more conditions or lower the cooldown of cleanse skills? A stat that increases the potency and the duration of all your buffs? Do you think support would still be under-par? If you had something like that, a player spec for support would be extremely usefull and that is a role that is not healer nor is tank and it is plain support (notice I didn’t mention his healing would be stronger). The can apply to forms of CC. A stat that improves their CC power like launch distance or improve their cooldowns or make their CC strong enough to remove one extra charge of defiant (every class could get this in one trait line). My example shows you that it is possible to have viable and wanted support spec in the game, it’s just that the designers went other direction when building the game (somehow they thought it was better to add tanking and healing stats which till today I can’t understand, it is a big inconsistency with their core design and manifesto).

Now we’re going back to a model like in GW1, and don’t get me wrong, I’d love it for this game to be more like GW1, where you would spec into attributes in order to make your skills more effective. For example removing 1, 2 or 3 enchantments (boons) depending on your spec etc.

I’m not arguing against an overhaul of support / CC to make it more useful, I’m just arguing that the statement that support and CC are non-existent and DPS groups focus on DPS and DPS only is flat out wrong. Support and CC in a highly organized group setting is just very subtle, and although it is subtle, if it is not used correctly, it could mean the difference between a smooth kill and a wipe (reflects on lupi, AC p2 boss, removing immob on Crusher, Aegis on Destroyer in CoE p3 etc).

You forget that even if they made this big overhaul and made the game more dependent on support and control, it would still be the current speedrunners that figure out the best way to do it, and it would still be the PUGs and the people crying for the overhaul that would have trouble with the new way the content is designed. I’d like to refer you to my signature.

Mesket.5728:

So we can say the game is fine because at fractal lvl 79 control finally has an important role? Yes, it is a bad example. Please provide one that reflects the reality of the majority of the player base where roles (specialization into support or control) are needed/used and justified.

Okay, try to faceroll risen illusionists without any cc without getting downed.

haviz.1340:

Mesket.5728:

So we can say the game is fine because at fractal lvl 79 control finally has an important role? Yes, it is a bad example. Please provide one that reflects the reality of the majority of the player base where roles (specialization into support or control) are needed/used and justified.

Okay, try to faceroll risen illusionists without any cc without getting downed.

Did it yesterday. No, no faceroll, but did it anyway without struggling. No CC needed. Easier with CC maybe, needed CC, no.

Since your example would be Arah: Would you take someone to your Arah run who says: “Hey I’m built for CC, full on (insert non-existant stat for control) to CC more, please take me” over a full zerk player? (I guess I know the answer, because there is no need for a CC role on the party, because there is no CC role in this game, because there are no roles in this game because everyone on full zerk can just equip 1 cc utility and its all that is needed).

There are no stats for control so why did you even bring it? What would you want, 5s long stuns? There’s a reason why control stats do not exist and if you don’t see it I think you bought wrong game.

There are no definite roles and I always have few cc in the party. I agree unshakeable needs to be changed but cc against mobs is in good place.

Yoh.8469:

An example of a bad healer is the Monk from GW1.
While you could do damage, between the limited skill slots and attribute points, you were forced to pick either great healing, or so-so damage. So in other words if you wanted to be a monk, you could only ever heal, and nothing else.

The two best healing classes in any game that I’ve played so far:

The bloodmage and the disciple classes in Vanguard. Go check them out if you haven’t already, truly rather unique concepts there imho.

To add last thing, I’m all for increasing CC and support in pve but it should be done through traiting not gear. We have enough of it already.

haviz.1340:

There are no stats for control so why did you even bring it? What would you want, 5s long stuns? There’s a reason why control stats do not exist and if you don’t see it I think you bought wrong game.

There are no definite roles and I always have few cc in the party. I agree unshakeable needs to be changed but cc against mobs is in good place.

It doesn’t matter what I want… the game was advertise as a role game, they mentioned 3 roles: DAMAGE, CONTROL and SUPPORT.

They made a game with 3 kind of stats: DAMAGE, TANK and HEALING. (This I still can’t understand)

So what I want? stats for support and control. Why? because I’d like to see roles for once in this so self called role playing game. If I wanted to be all the same I would’ve been playing Counter Strike or GTA online. Man even Counter Strike have more roles in their group for better team play.

All the team play you have in GW2 is,… time your CC to remove defiant,… ok now interrupt… woohoo!!! boss down in 1 min cause we are all zerklings. Oh yeah, I forgot… “here guys, fire field, blast your skills to get 25 mights, ok now burn him down”. Amazing team play and coordination. I felt so proud of my job there,… lucky I know how to play my class, whatever that is (its all the same).

Anet definitely needs to do something, Something more interesting than “get Zerker gear … faceroll … win”

Mesket.5728:

It doesn’t matter what I want… the game was advertise as a role game, they mentioned 3 roles: DAMAGE, CONTROL and SUPPORT.

They made a game with 3 kind of stats: DAMAGE, TANK and HEALING. (This I still can’t understand)

So what I want? stats for support and control. Why? because I’d like to see roles for once in this so self called role playing game. If I wanted to be all the same I would’ve been playing Counter Strike or GTA online. Man even Counter Strike have more roles in their group for better team play.

All the team play you have in GW2 is,… time your CC to remove defiant,… ok now interrupt… woohoo!!! boss down in 1 min cause we are all zerklings. Oh yeah, I forgot… “here guys, fire field, blast your skills to get 25 mights, ok now burn him down”. Amazing team play and coordination. I felt so proud of my job there,… lucky I know how to play my class, whatever that is (its all the same).

Good luck trying to persuade them then.

Plus, killing boss in 10 minutes is how exactly better? You can try fotm at higher levels if you like meat bags.

haviz.1340:

Mesket.5728:

It doesn’t matter what I want… the game was advertise as a role game, they mentioned 3 roles: DAMAGE, CONTROL and SUPPORT.

They made a game with 3 kind of stats: DAMAGE, TANK and HEALING. (This I still can’t understand)

So what I want? stats for support and control. Why? because I’d like to see roles for once in this so self called role playing game. If I wanted to be all the same I would’ve been playing Counter Strike or GTA online. Man even Counter Strike have more roles in their group for better team play.

All the team play you have in GW2 is,… time your CC to remove defiant,… ok now interrupt… woohoo!!! boss down in 1 min cause we are all zerklings. Oh yeah, I forgot… “here guys, fire field, blast your skills to get 25 mights, ok now burn him down”. Amazing team play and coordination. I felt so proud of my job there,… lucky I know how to play my class, whatever that is (its all the same).

Good luck trying to persuade them then.

Plus, killing boss in 10 minutes is how exactly better? You can try fotm at higher levels if you like meat bags.

Did it too. I don’t like meatbags, but I kinda think that zerks are way to spoiled already.- Some of them spoiled beyond repair. Some of them sound like if Wow is all they know.-

The game needs a balance. Dps will always be there so I don’t see why such a big game needed so much focus on dps. Everywhere I look I find poor design (look again at tank and healer stats in a game with no holy trinity) and little thought put into things. It doesn’t matter how much math they did if conceptually they started with the wrong foot.

Bright.9160:

I’m not arguing against an overhaul of support / CC to make it more useful, I’m just arguing that the statement that support and CC are non-existent and DPS groups focus on DPS and DPS only is flat out wrong. Support and CC in a highly organized group setting is just very subtle, and although it is subtle, if it is not used correctly, it could mean the difference between a smooth kill and a wipe (reflects on lupi, AC p2 boss, removing immob on Crusher, Aegis on Destroyer in CoE p3 etc).

Yes. Oddly enough, it is the coordinated groups of skilled players that are using the existing mechanics, including support and control, to their advantage. Since much less coordinated groups can and do complete dungeons without using those mechanics, one might ask why the dungeons are tuned to allow this. If using the mechanics were necessary for success, not just speed, there’d be fewer complaints about lack of roles.

haviz.1340:

To add last thing, I’m all for increasing CC and support in pve but it should be done through traiting not gear. We have enough of it already.

I agree with that.
But we would to have to clarify first what CC is.
In a short term, crowd control is the ability to limit the number of mobs actively fighting during an encounter. Fear, daze, root, stun, mesmerize in any form.
Now look at all class cc skills and their duration and radius and range.
What we have at level 80 in this game as cc would be in other games skills for a beginner.
Most of the times you can CC one mob in this game, because the AI of the mobs is outstanding good, they are running away from you – out of range or radius – etc.
you have no chance for real CC becaus of or that and because of our pathetic skills on CC.

And now look at the dark side, look at the mobs. Knock down a player for 30 sec. isn’t very seldom. Tequatl is a good example if you defending the turrets. The kraits can chain pull you with not a whiff of chance to break it. Or now the labyrinth of the mad king: skeletons push you, mumies pull you and all what you can do is, looking at you life-bar going down. That IS cc!
Regardless how good your group is, you will be never able to do this kind of cc. Sometims i have the impression, this game was made for the mobs and not for us.

No, CC as it should be is not implemented in this game and 99% of the time you just need to do dps because the lack of real CC.

I like to play different roles. In GW2, I can generally do that with one character. Some professions will perform better than others at a given role.

It seems OP suffers from an identity crisis. Who am I? This is not necessarily idealism speaking (wanting a role), I believe it’s the product of being so conditioned with having a dedicated, unique role patch sewn to a player’s sleeves when they play an RPG.

I enjoy roles and a sense of uniqueness, in terms of what I bring to a battle. However, that doesn’t mean I want to play my character in a box, without access to other “roles”.

GW2 relaxed roles, but they still exist. You’re probably not going to tank with a thief. You’re not going to make a ranger healer. Don’t expect a necro to throw down a fire field.

What we have is a system where every profession brings threads of contribution in different ways. There’s plenty of good argument to improve professions and make them feel more unique and exciting, but to return to a system that pinches professions into niche roles would destroy the freedom of being able to play what you like and not feel restricted to certain play styles.

Personally I would call the holy trinity blasphemy as far as MMOs go. Now, I myself have played several MMOs:

Runescape: Paper/rock/scissors system, no tank/heal/DPS
Phantasy Star Universe: Active combat game. Had status, debuffs, buffs, and heals, but no role restrictions.
Monster Hunter: Active combat game. Had no roles so to speak, but you could build for stuff like disabling or immunity to certain effects.
City of Heroes: Had 4 roles: melee (tank), range (DPS), support, control. Multiple classes could do multiple roles, and as such many weren’t necessary.
GW2: should go without saying.

Of all these, City of Heroes is the one that had the closest to a trinity system. It had a quadruple system, in which pretty much every “role” (in which most classes could do two or more) had enough potency to handle most situations, so the system was quite free form for most content. The game was balanced way below the peak performance for the majority of content, but also gave a difficulty slider so that you could crank up the hurt if you chose to do so. The advantage to balancing this way is that players, given enough investment, could make themselves insanely powerful and completely break the “required class” mold.

This is the online gaming experience I grew up with: The #1 priority for all of the games was to be kitten. Sure, there were specs and roles that you could do, but so long as you were awesome enough it didn’t matter. There is nothing cooler than, once your entire team has died, you soloing that big boss on a buffer/debuffer because you are so good that you can do it.

Because of this, I find necessitating the trinity to be a stupid decision. While making roles, the trinity eliminates individuality and innovation. It does this by relying on a lazy mechanic that exploits the aggro system, causing enemies to fight you only where you are strongest. Sure, if you play a linchpin class the whole team dies when you do, and this can make you feel important, but in reality you’re just a nameless cog in the machine: If you do your job no one notices or cares, and if you mess up you’re immediately despised and replaced. Group composition becomes limited because of hard DPS checks, and 2/3rds of the roles you can play aren’t DPS.

And this isn’t even real cooperation. One person runs up and gets angry with others mess up, another person plays whackamole with HP bars an heals, and the rest hang back and shoot at stuff until it dies. There is very little feedback needed. Real cooperation would involve reacting to situations, innovating solutions to them, and having abilities with specific placement and circumstances that require others to cooperate to be effective.

This is exactly what GW2 does. The support abilities are based on placement and circumstances, using AoE mechanics instead of player targeting. They are combo fields, which require active observation an action to take advantage of. They use CC as a form of defense and offense, timing appropriately to reposition and disable enemies. GW2 does all of these things nicely. It doesn’t require them, which is IMO a strength more than a weakness. This has made the combat in GW2 exciting and individualized, where good performance is noticed instead of ignored, and bad performance is compensated for instead of group killing.

The proper purpose of “roles” isn’t to force a player into a particular set up due to necessity by design. No, the proper purpose of roles is to provide unique and meaningful ways to be awesome. Every class should have different tools to handle the same encounter, and each one should go about engagements differently because they have different strengths. Not different weaknesses.

Meh, the GW2 trinity is runner, bunker, bunker-buster.

I really like GW2’s combat, the only thing I would add would be an aggro meter so we could control the boss aggro with taunts. Other than that everything else is fine.

declan.3968:

I really like GW2’s combat, the only thing I would add would be an aggro meter so we could control the boss aggro with taunts. Other than that everything else is fine.

This would be a huge improvement really. No need to have taunts though, just normal damage. If you start to get too focused and beat up, you can back off damage and let it drift elsewhere. This is a natural time to throw some support abilities out as well.

That alone would give the devs some breathing room to slow fights down and put some actual strategy in. FFxiv has a good little agro list built in that shows which mobs are ‘looking’ at you and little squares that are simply green, yellow and red next to them.

As much as some of us know a trinity is better, it will never fly in this game, with this player base. We need to strike a balance at this point and focus on moving away from ‘zerkers and zergs as primary PvE (and PvP for WvW) balance points for the devs. I know some are just used to that at this point but it’s terrible from a gameplay standpoint. It’s a completely broken system that’s left to fester because devs are afraid to change course.

Change is scary, but it’s almost never bad and usually a great improvement. MMOs are a progressive platform and this one is in a rut, badly. It’s cobbled together a system that’s weak, but somewhat stable. Is that really the full potential of GW2?

The easiest way to get rid of zerkers in dungeons? Give enemies undodgable attacks they like spamming often. There, zerkers become worthless because they can’t survive.

RyuDragnier.9476:

The easiest way to get rid of zerkers in dungeons? Give enemies undodgable attacks they like spamming often. There, zerkers become worthless because they can’t survive.

What about….

Make a new enemy boon for vet or higher tier enemies, will reflect CRITICAL damage to player.

Each class should be able to trait and remove this boon. This trait should be either on def or vit trait line.

Although this boon can be removed but the enemy will re-cast easily. Player with high critical chance / damage will have to watch out and attack during the boon is down otherwise they will got hit / killed by their own CRITICAL hit. This way makes Zerker party uneasy. The party with more players traited to deal with this boon they have more boon down time to attack, while party with full zerker and not traited will have less attack window.

This can make party with less critical damage and traited roughly kill speed (less dps but more attack windows) = full zerker kill speed (more dps but less attack windows), and both play style will be rewarded.

I like that idea, quite a bit.

The OP makes a really good point. Tweaking the stats and providing a “soft” holy trinity actually gives players more options to play their characters no matter what flavor of the game they enjoy. Many months ago I tried making my elementalist a straight up support healer and quickly found that I was not viable for either healing or dps. In the end I was forced to join the dagger/dagger pew-pew crowd so I could not play the game my way.

Sitael.4680:

Harper.4173:

I am that kind of player – i DO NOT WANT my success to be reliant on other people. That’s why i like this game – at a final boss the other 4 guys can wipe but as long as I’m staying alive I’ve got all i need to still win it.

May i ask you, why do you play an MMO? Do you know what “MMO” stays for?
If you do not need anybody else than yourself to play, you could play any single offline game, like skyrim.

Because of the atmosphere – it’s cool to see people running around doing stuff – they can even do stuff around me as long as my loot/ success isn’t affected by them.
Also market, also friends, also because I loved GW1 and went go GW2 because of GW1 ( which was a CO-RPG).

Harper.4173:

Sitael.4680:

Harper.4173:

I am that kind of player – i DO NOT WANT my success to be reliant on other people. That’s why i like this game – at a final boss the other 4 guys can wipe but as long as I’m staying alive I’ve got all i need to still win it.

May i ask you, why do you play an MMO? Do you know what “MMO” stays for?
If you do not need anybody else than yourself to play, you could play any single offline game, like skyrim.

Because of the atmosphere – it’s cool to see people running around doing stuff – they can even do stuff around me as long as my loot/ success isn’t affected by them.
Also market, also friends, also because I loved GW1 and went go GW2 because of GW1 ( which was a CO-RPG).

Maybe it is cool to see people running around and doing stuff but one can have the same thing by watching the TV.
I’m really sorry, that i do not understand why people playing an MMO, but do not want cooperate with the other players. But i understand why it is so in GW2, where this is a very common behavior.
GW2 has – except dungeons and some group evets – no content for group play. There is absolutely no need to play in a group in the whole game. And then many players are surprised when they join a group and realize, that they need to learn how to play.
What do you think why so many are asking in the “collaborativ development” thread for hardmode instances? Maybe because all the instances can be done with 96% dps and 4 % other things and that is humdrum after a while? Maybe because may players are missing some kind of class-roles? Not necessarily a strict trinity, but more diversity against the current dps-dps-dps role allocation.

In my experience party play is governed by one person who determines what will be done. It’s not round robin, it’s not we’ll do something player A wants and then player B, etc through the list of party members. It’s a dictatorship. Here in GW2 while you can always team up you don’t need to. Just as you don’t need to do the DE that just popped up on your screen or that heart that’s nearby. Everyone is free to choose.

It’s an outgrowth of the whole players helping players without penalizing design of the game. This is one of the most solo friendly MMOs I’ve ever played. We can’t kill steal, we can’t ninja loot, we can’t tag and let someone else do the heavy lifting. Why should we be forced to subjugate our evening’s activity to another because they were the missing member of the trinity that we need to do the simplest events? That’s why the professions here have more balanced spider charts than what you would find in a traditional MMO trinity. Because it’s balanced around solo play.

Crossaber.8934:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The easiest way to get rid of zerkers in dungeons? Give enemies undodgable attacks they like spamming often. There, zerkers become worthless because they can’t survive.

What about….

Make a new enemy boon for vet or higher tier enemies, will reflect CRITICAL damage to player.

Each class should be able to trait and remove this boon. This trait should be either on def or vit trait line.

Although this boon can be removed but the enemy will re-cast easily. Player with high critical chance / damage will have to watch out and attack during the boon is down otherwise they will got hit / killed by their own CRITICAL hit. This way makes Zerker party uneasy. The party with more players traited to deal with this boon they have more boon down time to attack, while party with full zerker and not traited will have less attack window.

This can make party with less critical damage and traited roughly kill speed (less dps but more attack windows) = full zerker kill speed (more dps but less attack windows), and both play style will be rewarded.

What an idea. Let’s give players tools and then take them away from them through a nonsensical mechanic whose only reason for existence is the success envy of others. When will people get the concept? Balance is based on PvP, where glass cannon is less complained about than conditions and bunkers.

If this abomination of an idea were to ever see the light of day, speed groups would switch to whatever build worked best. They would still be exclusionary. There would still only be one best option. And marginally skilled players would have less success in dungeons than they do now. The skilled would build around the mechanic and everyone else would just take more damage than they do now.

Sitael.4680:

Harper.4173:

Sitael.4680:

Harper.4173:

I am that kind of player – i DO NOT WANT my success to be reliant on other people. That’s why i like this game – at a final boss the other 4 guys can wipe but as long as I’m staying alive I’ve got all i need to still win it.

May i ask you, why do you play an MMO? Do you know what “MMO” stays for?
If you do not need anybody else than yourself to play, you could play any single offline game, like skyrim.

Because of the atmosphere – it’s cool to see people running around doing stuff – they can even do stuff around me as long as my loot/ success isn’t affected by them.
Also market, also friends, also because I loved GW1 and went go GW2 because of GW1 ( which was a CO-RPG).

Maybe it is cool to see people running around and doing stuff but one can have the same thing by watching the TV.
I’m really sorry, that i do not understand why people playing an MMO, but do not want cooperate with the other players. But i understand why it is so in GW2, where this is a very common behavior.
GW2 has – except dungeons and some group evets – no content for group play. There is absolutely no need to play in a group in the whole game. And then many players are surprised when they join a group and realize, that they need to learn how to play.
What do you think why so many are asking in the “collaborativ development” thread for hardmode instances? Maybe because all the instances can be done with 96% dps and 4 % other things and that is humdrum after a while? Maybe because may players are missing some kind of class-roles? Not necessarily a strict trinity, but more diversity against the current dps-dps-dps role allocation.

People want harder content not because they want a class role specifically – I think you added your own interpretation there.
Harder content can be done without having class roles – and the AR dungeon proved that.
You can have harder content without having more defined roles – but I think that what the player base wants is harder content coupled with better rewards – aka more efficient way of making gold.

I’ve rarely heard of people wanting harder stuff for the sake of it. Most of the people I’ve talked to want " harder content that is worth doing " aka good rewards if you’re a good player and can complete it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Crossaber.8934:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The easiest way to get rid of zerkers in dungeons? Give enemies undodgable attacks they like spamming often. There, zerkers become worthless because they can’t survive.

What about….

Make a new enemy boon for vet or higher tier enemies, will reflect CRITICAL damage to player.

Each class should be able to trait and remove this boon. This trait should be either on def or vit trait line.

Although this boon can be removed but the enemy will re-cast easily. Player with high critical chance / damage will have to watch out and attack during the boon is down otherwise they will got hit / killed by their own CRITICAL hit. This way makes Zerker party uneasy. The party with more players traited to deal with this boon they have more boon down time to attack, while party with full zerker and not traited will have less attack window.

This can make party with less critical damage and traited roughly kill speed (less dps but more attack windows) = full zerker kill speed (more dps but less attack windows), and both play style will be rewarded.

What an idea. Let’s give players tools and then take them away from them through a nonsensical mechanic whose only reason for existence is the success envy of others. When will people get the concept? Balance is based on PvP, where glass cannon is less complained about than conditions and bunkers.

If this abomination of an idea were to ever see the light of day, speed groups would switch to whatever build worked best. They would still be exclusionary. There would still only be one best option. And marginally skilled players would have less success in dungeons than they do now. The skilled would build around the mechanic and everyone else would just take more damage than they do now.

Finally – someone who gets it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Crossaber.8934:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The easiest way to get rid of zerkers in dungeons? Give enemies undodgable attacks they like spamming often. There, zerkers become worthless because they can’t survive.

What about….

Make a new enemy boon for vet or higher tier enemies, will reflect CRITICAL damage to player.

Each class should be able to trait and remove this boon. This trait should be either on def or vit trait line.

Although this boon can be removed but the enemy will re-cast easily. Player with high critical chance / damage will have to watch out and attack during the boon is down otherwise they will got hit / killed by their own CRITICAL hit. This way makes Zerker party uneasy. The party with more players traited to deal with this boon they have more boon down time to attack, while party with full zerker and not traited will have less attack window.

This can make party with less critical damage and traited roughly kill speed (less dps but more attack windows) = full zerker kill speed (more dps but less attack windows), and both play style will be rewarded.

What an idea. Let’s give players tools and then take them away from them through a nonsensical mechanic whose only reason for existence is the success envy of others. When will people get the concept? Balance is based on PvP, where glass cannon is less complained about than conditions and bunkers.

If this abomination of an idea were to ever see the light of day, speed groups would switch to whatever build worked best. They would still be exclusionary. There would still only be one best option. And marginally skilled players would have less success in dungeons than they do now. The skilled would build around the mechanic and everyone else would just take more damage than they do now.

This is not a zerker hate.

This is a mechanic should have existed since day one. There are mechanics that limit direct damage and condition damage, which is armor rating and condition stack limit. Condition stack is working fine, armor rating is working fine towards sustain direct attack but not against critical damage.

This idea is a mechanic to limit critical damage, so to balance out sustain direct damage, condition damage and critical damage and allow all build diversity to have similar kill speed, same fun in PvE. With this mechanic, boss super huge health pool can be bring down.

high crit damage build is still highly viable, they only need to watch out their attack window or bring some teammates to strip the enemy “boon” naked, or bring condition damage dealer….

I think this way make party play more fun.

can we just let this die. There is no case for this in guild wars never was never will be. If you need it play another mmo and let those of us happy with this game play in peace

Crossaber.8934:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Crossaber.8934:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The easiest way to get rid of zerkers in dungeons? Give enemies undodgable attacks they like spamming often. There, zerkers become worthless because they can’t survive.

What about….

Make a new enemy boon for vet or higher tier enemies, will reflect CRITICAL damage to player.

Each class should be able to trait and remove this boon. This trait should be either on def or vit trait line.

Although this boon can be removed but the enemy will re-cast easily. Player with high critical chance / damage will have to watch out and attack during the boon is down otherwise they will got hit / killed by their own CRITICAL hit. This way makes Zerker party uneasy. The party with more players traited to deal with this boon they have more boon down time to attack, while party with full zerker and not traited will have less attack window.

This can make party with less critical damage and traited roughly kill speed (less dps but more attack windows) = full zerker kill speed (more dps but less attack windows), and both play style will be rewarded.

What an idea. Let’s give players tools and then take them away from them through a nonsensical mechanic whose only reason for existence is the success envy of others. When will people get the concept? Balance is based on PvP, where glass cannon is less complained about than conditions and bunkers.

If this abomination of an idea were to ever see the light of day, speed groups would switch to whatever build worked best. They would still be exclusionary. There would still only be one best option. And marginally skilled players would have less success in dungeons than they do now. The skilled would build around the mechanic and everyone else would just take more damage than they do now.

This is not a zerker hate.

This is a mechanic should have existed since day one. There are mechanics that limit direct damage and condition damage, which is armor rating and condition stack limit. Condition stack is working fine, armor rating is working fine towards sustain direct attack but not against critical damage.

This idea is a mechanic to limit critical damage, so to balance out sustain direct damage, condition damage and critical damage and allow all build diversity to have similar kill speed, same fun in PvE. With this mechanic, boss super huge health pool can be bring down.

high crit damage build is still highly viable, they only need to watch out their attack window or bring some teammates to strip the enemy “boon” naked, or bring condition damage dealer….

I think this way make party play more fun.

I didn’t say “hate.” I said success envy. You can bring condition builds now. You can bring tanky builds now. You can bring any build you want now, and you can succeed in dungeons. You just don’t want others to clear faster with crit builds.

My point, that you missed, is that your proposal might cut down on the speed of the speed clear groups, but they will still complete dungeons and will still be the fastest. Instead, your proposal will cut back on the success rate of less coordinated groups.

they found a new way to kill an intimidating thread, move it to the suggestions forums….

GG

IMO the lack of the Holy Trinity is why… the most online this year was 460k… out of the 3.5+million copies that sold. Out of that many players who go interested in this game… that’s the climax. I measly 460k… and btw that is the MOST online in the last year. Not an average… This game had potential… it still does. Lets face it… Gem Store goes to NCSoft and they decide how much to give to ANet for more development but that’s another dilemma.

Harper.4173:

People want harder content not because they want a class role specifically – I think you added your own interpretation there.
Harder content can be done without having class roles – and the AR dungeon proved that.
You can have harder content without having more defined roles – but I think that what the player base wants is harder content coupled with better rewards – aka more efficient way of making gold.

I’ve rarely heard of people wanting harder stuff for the sake of it. Most of the people I’ve talked to want " harder content that is worth doing " aka good rewards if you’re a good player and can complete it.

What is harder content? For me it would be more brain-challenging content. Mindless butchery with more mob with more HP is may be harder but noway really challenging.

I agree with you, that a hard…. let say more challenging content should be revarded appropiate. White, blue and green is not really appropiate (but that’s would be a discussion about RNG)

I did not say we need a strict trinity, but it would be great to have more roles for content than the usual dps-dps-selfheal-dps skilltree. The ability to have more skills to go deeper in a direction like CC, heal and dps too would be good for this game, but only if the content would support such a playstyle.
Pleas do not tell me, that would be end in an lfg like “only cc necro” etc. this is allready the case with “onyl berserker warrior” and likewise lfg-requests.

Crossaber.8934:

terrible idea

I’d to remind you of a quote from Wethospu that I’ve shamelessly stolen and have been using against ideas/people like you on the forums.

“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu

Think about it, then realize why your idea is like shooting Usain Bolt in the foot with a paintball gun, then shooting yourself in the foot with a shotgun, because you don’t like it that he runs faster than you.

Harder content just comes with the territory. Greater than the sum of its parts.
It not only creates fun challenging content it allows roles which establish a players sense of purpose.

It is a players purpose inside a group that is absent from this game.

I have read ALL of Yoh’s post(s), and some of the responses.

To me the problem with GW2 is NOT that it take away the holy trinity,
but more the fact that it went from a customizable skillbar in GW1,
to a more fixed skillbar …known to/from the holy trinity MMOs.

I am not saying they should implement 200 skills for each proffession
like they did in GW2, but a customizable skillbar provides the flexibility
which are needed, especially now that we don’t have the holy trinity.
It’s like 2 step forwards choosing holy trinity free style,
but 1 step back, changing skillbar flexibility to the fixed holy trinity style.

…and yes I know in those holy trinity MMOs you can put your skills
down as you wish on the skillbar, but you have the same fixed amount
of skills, as if they were fixed on the skillbar like in GW2.