Posted by: God Of Fissures.8627
ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | 16GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 1866MHz @ 2400MHz
Samsung 840 PRO 512GB SSD | Windows 10 x64
Posted by: God Of Fissures.8627
In the MMO Manifesto, ArenaNet’s Colin Johanson stated:
“…you get a quest step that says ‘Go kill ten centaurs’. We don’t think that’s okay.”
In a nutshell, ArenaNet is saying that the traditional “kill ten rats” quest structure is not okay. This means they intend to exclude it from the game.
The problem is that they didn’t.
For example, there is a Dynamic Event in Queensdale that requires players to defeat ten waves of bandits that are attacking a farm. The user interface explicitly displays “Bandit waves defeated 0/10”. This is a prime example of the “kill ten rats” quest structure. The players know exactly how many groups are going to attack and that once ten groups of these bandits are defeated, the attacks will stop.
This breaks immersion, makes the event dull, and removes all the “suspense” and “unpredictability” that ArenaNet intended to include in their dynamic event system.
Now this situation boils down to how the dynamic event is presented to the player. Instead of telling the player that ten groups must be defeated, the game could say:
“Defeat the onslaught of bandits assaulting the farm.”
“Thwart the bandit forces attacking the farm.”
By telling the players right from the start that 10 waves of bandits are going to attack the farm, I already know everything that is going to happen. By adding hints of unpredictability and suspense to the presentation of these events, immersion is increased, and the overall experience improves.
Not too long ago I discussed this exact same thing in-game with some people. Someone told me that “the event is optional, so it is okay to have a kill 10 rats scenario. you can simply walk past it”. Numerous others said that because it was a dynamic event and not a quest, kill 10 rats doesn’t apply. Excuse me, but kill 10 waves of bandits is the exact same thing as kill 10 rats, no matter the scenario.
Well I showed the problem as I see it, suggestions on how to fix it, and how other people just don’t understand the importance of immersion in a game that is meant to “defy existing conventions”.
What do you think?
Posted by: Enemygate.1637
The hearts give you options which is nice, you are not locked in to one thing. Go kill ten rats, smash rat nests, look a someone funny, or use this charzooka to melt a portrait of my grandmother.
Though I see your point, but there are not many dynamic events like that.
(edited by Moderator)
Posted by: Cinder.4865
I’ll take Melting Portraits of Enemygate’s Grandmother with a Charzooka for 200 Karma, Alex.
Edit: And to actually be constructive: while I understand that the “kill 10 x” has not gone away entirely, the framework on which it originally existed has. You have a choice, kill 10 x, do y, or smash z a couple times to get him back to work. And, more so than ever before, these actually mean something to that particular heart’s quests. It doesn’t feel arbitrary, at least not to me. And killing 10 more x in defense of an area means something, too.
So, yes, while killing things in an MMO is probably never going to change, the framework and why has, and that’s made it a much more enjoyable experience.
(edited by Cinder.4865)
Posted by: Phy.2913
You’re right, but they did a good job disguising it and giving options to get around it.
Posted by: Azaziel.3608
I agree it’s still pretty much the same as kill 10 rats…but it’s a step in the right direction…
I think the main reason it hasn’t been done yet is probably because completely random unrepetitive events are beyond the current programming capabilities, but I’m no expert in programming so I can’t know for sure
Posted by: God Of Fissures.8627
I don’t mean to make the events completely random, but make them unpredictable, exciting, and suspenseful for people doing them for the first time.
Make them say “Wow, I didn’t expect that”, or “Jeez, those things just kept coming”…instead of “Phew, 10/10 waves defeated…no more will come now”.
Posted by: Colonel Kernel.7506
To answer your question “What do I think” (presumably about your topic ):
I think I don’t have to hunt down 10 Centaurs. I’m having them delivered.
I also think that I don’t have to walk for 15 minutes to find the area where the centaurs hang out, then kill 100 of them to find the 10 with bladder infections, and then walk another 15 minutes to bring the 10 infected centaur bladders back to the sicko who sent me after them.
However, the progress bar on the event could be changed to a percentage completion, and the number of waves made into a random number between 5 & 15. Each wave could then be a random number of centaurs = to 2-4 centaurs per player present (rolled per player, not X (d2+2).
Posted by: kahzee.6042
I think what they really meant was go kill ten centaurs and they are just standing in a field. In gw2 they are actually attacking
Posted by: MithranArkanere.8957
Well, the main focus of the game is still action and combat.
There’s a quite some events with more than one thing to do, like the bandit attack in which you can kill bandits, but you can also water the bales.
More of that could be nice, but the kill X Y will still happen.
It’s just that instead having to go were the Y spawn and kill X of them, you accompany an NPC to where the Y are, and kill X of them until a bar is filled. And once the chore is done, maybe there’s something else to do, so you keep following the NPC.
Posted by: Aramyre.7083
In essence yes, those are still the quests. But you can choose from multiple options (and sometimes you got really nice original hearts too!). But killing mobs in an MMO can not be avoided. Especially not if you have to cover 80 levels. The game is about action and combat after all.
Posted by: RobinotX.1604
I believe they never intented to change the structure.
They gave us many ways of leveling. You can PvP in your personal story, explore, craft and quest.
MMORPG’s are in the end RPG’s. And in most RPG you level through killing stuff.
But what makes GW2 more enjoyable as a MMO then for example SWTOR or WoW.
When you have to do a quest in latter games, you don’t have a choice how to do it. You MUST do it. Kill 10 spiders, kill 10 sith, dance with a hutt. There isn’t the choice of destroy supplies etc etc.
People are nitpicking about the little things. There isn’t really an other way of leveling then how the average MMO did it.
Plus, you don’t have to fight in every heartevent, you can also run around until you find dynamic events and do the hearts while you do the dynamic.
I see what you are pointing at. But I believe they never actually stated, we are removing the kill 10 rats way of quests. They changed it, many people say they changed the whole MMO’s. NO, they haven’t changed it. They have used a base of an idea. And build their own building on it. They build further on it. They made the usage of the quests better and took one step forward.
I hope that this formula will stay and that other company’s take over Anet’s way of MMO’s
Posted by: Ronah.2869
Unless they take out the completing numbers, percentages, bars it will still be “kill 10 rats” mechanic disguised in a fashionable manner. The solution is given by the OP and it can be applied to other events too.
Why do we see a bar filling up when we do a collecting event and we don’t see a big pile of that item stacking up next to the NPC which required them?
Posted by: tzko.2370
You see that so you know when to stop. Imagine an event without counter or such. Not even a medal that pops up because it has to be random, right? How long could you stand there and wait for something to happen?
I think those counters serve well to show people how much more it will be. If you dont want to seem them, you could hide your interface, no?’
Op says:“I don’t mean to make the events completely random, but make them unpredictable, exciting, and suspenseful” Isn’t that what random stands for?
Posted by: Gynxz.4079
Listen to the FULL explanation on the manifesto. You are taking just a piece of their explanation out of context and saying they lied.
His quote has nothing to do with the “kill 10 requirement” but rather with how this “10” are presented to the player. When they give you a quest to kill 10 centaurs because they are attacking a village “You SEE the centaurs” actually attacking and not just standing in a field.
Watch it again and you will understand his true meaning.
Posted by: ProphetSword.5427
There are a couple of key differences between a dynamic event that requires you to kill 10 bandit waves and another MMO giving you a quest to kill 10 rats. Let’s examine what they are:
1) You can fail to kill the bandit waves. The bandits can win (I’ve seen it happen). Can the rats win? They can kill you, sure…but you can keep coming back until you have all 10 and still beat the quest or restart it. You can fail to beat a dynamic quest.
2) You can leave in the middle or start at the end. In other words, you don’t have to kill all 10 bandit groups. Maybe you came in when 9/10 were destroyed and just wanted to help folks finish the thing up. You still get credit. How many “kill 10 rat” quests give you a starting credit of 9/10?
3) As someone else already pointed out, the rats will probably be sitting in a field. The waves of bandits are whole waves of bandits rushing at you. Similar questing, different execution…and far more exciting, IMO.
4) Other people can help you that aren’t in your party. When you go to kill those 10 rats in another MMO, if the area is swarmed with folks, how many of their kills count toward your completion? Answer: 0, unless they are in your party. Against the bandit hordes, everyone’s kills help you achieve your goal.
5) When the quest is over, you get your reward. In other MMOs, you must travel back to the person who gave you the quest or another person who could be far away to receive your reward. Maybe not a big deal, but a huge time saver IMO.
6) When given a quest to kill rats, they will not usually dynamically become tougher based on the number of people in your party. In GW2, those 10 bandit hordes might be tougher if 20 extra people come along to help you out. A bandit veteran or champion might even become involved.
In summary, I think it’s a weak argument when people say that dynamic event quests in GW2 are just like quests in other MMOs because they include an arbitrary number required for completion. They aren’t. Only the framework idea that you are on a “quest” remains. I am still baffled that people cannot see this.
Posted by: Innocente.4271
It’s actually a little worse in some cases than just “Go Kill 10 Rats”.
Sometimes, it is:
“Go kill some Rats, bring me back their Tails. Then, I will tell you that you are either done, or not done.”
You don’t even get to know how many Rats you need to kill. And, if you wait to long to run back, someone else may turn in a finalizing number of Rat Tails and you won’t get anything.
Posted by: Ari Kagura.9182
I do agree to some extent that some of the events that have noticeably present numbers should be changed somewhat. Instead, for events that have those variables, perhaps it could be changed to a numeric Morale, similar to certain invasion events that show what’s the morale level of the invading party. Or a simple but cryptic “progress bar” could work too. It sort of gives you a more general idea of how big or small the forces are without giving away the entire story of the battle. When it comes to “waves”, a wave is a wave regardless of how big or small it is. At least that’s how I see it.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.