Guild Wars 2

Linnea.5146:

I fully support the OP. At first I thought it was the lack of Cantha and Elona that irked me, but it’s actually the “dumbing down” of the gameplay, if I may put it that way. Making dishing out damage the only viable way of taking down enemies is boring, and I would love it if we could use control and support more. I miss the smart, challenging gameplay of GW. (No, I’m not saying bring the old trinity back, I just want more pre-battle planning and strategic thinking during the battle.) It’s a good start with giving us combo fields, I love using them, but it’s simply not enough.

Anet mentioend specificly in the “Death and Dying” post that combo feilds were supposed to be a huge part of parties working together. Once again because damage is so promoted Fire+Blast is about the only combo that sees much use. I REALLY miss the combat from the BETA where you needed to use control and support skills or you were toast.
I’ve been going over my old video footage to make sure it’s not just nostaliga and it’s not. Spamming auto attack, or even your attacks without control or support would get you killed! But it seems people complained that made the game too hard so it was dumbed down.

This has been an interesting read. I’m curious what people think of the up coming notes and the implications, if at all for points raised in this thread.

http://pastebin.com/2rrFg9pS

The Talcmaster.7391:

-snip-

You forgot to mention that Power + Precision is staggering, and Precision + Crit Damage is staggering, therefore Power + Precision + Critical Damage is just stacking modifiers onto modifiers for insannnnneeee numbers.

The way GW1 got away with not having to deal with these stats is by having all “power” be equal, and then to fine-tune your abilities, you’d simply “trait” into that tree.

For example (as a Mesmer), I’d put points into Glamours, Signets, Illusions or Mantras to buff the corresponding skills.

It was a solid method, but I think GW2 has a lot more potential down the road. Everyone has such high expectations of a game that’s still an infant. GW1 had just as many problems (if not more) upon it’s release, in fact we’re getting a lot more than what GW1 had after 9 months of release.

I really don’t want to watch this video, however, because Kaaboose has a very bigoted point of view which usually reiterates.

Esplen.3940:

GW1 had just as many problems (if not more) upon it’s release, in fact we’re getting a lot more than what GW1 had after 9 months of release.

No it didn’t! I was there! GW1 didn’t have a broken guild system on release, or broken skills and traits. There were bugs, for sure. But hell, I don’t even remember there being progression blockers in the story on release. GW2 had much bigger problems on its release.

Esplen.3940:

I really don’t want to watch this video, however, because Kaaboose has a very bigoted point of view which usually reiterates.

You should watch the video, because he raises some very important points.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Esplen.3940:

GW1 had just as many problems (if not more) upon it’s release, in fact we’re getting a lot more than what GW1 had after 9 months of release.

No it didn’t! I was there! GW1 didn’t have a broken guild system on release, or broken skills and traits. There were bugs, for sure. But hell, I don’t even remember there being progression blockers in the story on release. GW2 had much bigger problems on its release.

You’re trying to line up the bugs. The game has progressed in much more than just aesthetics. GW2 does not have a broken guild system, nor are the traits/skills broken. Yes, they’re bugged, but so were skills in GW1. GW1 did have a few progression blockers due to some missions kitten out, forcing players to either re-do the entire instance or re-do the entire instance. If you want to actually line up the bugs, they line up pretty well, anyways.

Esplen.3940:

I really don’t want to watch this video, however, because Kaaboose has a very bigoted point of view which usually reiterates.

You should watch the video, because he raises some very important points.

And what important points does he bring up? If they’re so important, you can explain them with words versus voices. I’d rather read than listen, anyways.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Esplen.3940:

GW1 had just as many problems (if not more) upon it’s release, in fact we’re getting a lot more than what GW1 had after 9 months of release.

No it didn’t! I was there! GW1 didn’t have a broken guild system on release, or broken skills and traits. There were bugs, for sure. But hell, I don’t even remember there being progression blockers in the story on release. GW2 had much bigger problems on its release.

Esplen.3940:

I really don’t want to watch this video, however, because Kaaboose has a very bigoted point of view which usually reiterates.

You should watch the video, because he raises some very important points.

GW1 had plenty of bugs. A good example of progression blocking is during a long mission a crucial NPC could gett stuck. In fact while most of thoese problems ahve been fixed some are still there.
And boy were there skills that neeed tweaking.
The best example of that (And I know I’ve brought this up before but It’s just such a found memory to me) was that I ran a 8 ranger team in Heros Ascent (Then know as the tomb of primordial kings) that had 8 pets and we regularly held the hall.
We were literally able to nuke down 64 players in the space of a second.
But I digress, we’ve gotten a bit off topic here and should probably get back to the Trinity

FearedbytheGods.8617:

This has been an interesting read. I’m curious what people think of the up coming notes and the implications, if at all for points raised in this thread.

http://pastebin.com/2rrFg9pS

I’ll be honest, they sound fun and interesting! But they still won’t solve the PvE Trinity issues.

Kaaboose.3897:

GW1 had plenty of bugs. A good example of progression blocking is during a long mission a crucial NPC could gett stuck. In fact while most of thoese problems ahve been fixed some are still there.
And boy were there skills that neeed tweaking.
The best example of that (And I know I’ve brought this up before but It’s just such a found memory to me) was that I ran a 8 ranger team in Heros Ascent (Then know as the tomb of primordial kings) that had 8 pets and we regularly held the hall.
We were literally able to nuke down 64 players in the space of a second.
But I digress, we’ve gotten a bit off topic here and should probably get back to the Trinity .

Remember that bonus in Abaddon’s Mouth with the slow walking NPC?

Guess when it got fixed…

The end of 2012… Yup. Over 7 years to fix that bug.

Just saying.

Chiara.9827:

Pure gold. I wish they could start separating PvE from other aspects of the game more and more.
I can’t say how much I miss my lotro classes. Yes, it was a trinity game (and finding that tank was a true pain) but the classes I played weren’t tanks, nor healers or dpsers. I was playing the two supporters that had a nice mix of everything and could build for different roles. Something I expected to find in GW2 but sadly, didn’t.

I’ve found that as well. When I started playing before all of the nerfs across the board to save esporting, you could do anything and it was well placed in the pve part of the game to do these things. Then two nerfs came out.

Bosses and champs got CC immunity.
Condi damage was not only nerfed because people were QQing in WvW but it was also limited in it’s stacks from the beginning. No way to enhance it not class individuality in enhancing it nothing.

I miss my LM’s skill at placing an accelerant on the ground that both slowed my enemies and made burning and fire damage much more dangerous for them. When I tried to suggest it here people were up in arms about how imbalanced that would be, it’s not imbalanced it would bring back one of the special aspects of having condition focused damage in the first place, we have two glue attacks on the engineer and no one thought of this before? And no one thought of the lore from the beginning Charr zone where one has to go around picking thru gue to get certain things in the Charr starter zone (which is where I believe they got that as an attack).

Torment is fine for a beginning to help the bleeds do more, but where are the accelerants for burn damage? Even if it were a stacked item to carry with me in my pack it would be a welcome change to not having any way of increasing my damage directly other than boons. Heck they could even make it a trait.

Kaaboose.3897:

nty of bugs. A good example of progression blocking is during a long mission a crucial NPC could gett stuck. In fact while most of thoese problems ahve been fixed some are still there.
And boy were there skills that neeed tweaking.

I know, but Esplen claimed that GW1 had more problems on release than GW2. And that is simply not true. Upon release GW1’s guild system worked. Upon release you could play prophecies from beginning to end and finish the game. But upon GW2’s release, many parts of the personal story had progression blockers, the guild system was broken, many traits didn’t work. Those are game breaking bugs. GW1 did not have game breaking bugs on release.

So for Esplen to claim that GW1 had more problems on release, that is factually not true. That was the only point I was making. I didn’t say GW1 was without bugs.

And sure, that npc in that bonus mission in Abaddon’s Mouth was hella slow, and they fixed it way too late. But that was not a progression blocker. There were plenty of things they fixed really late in GW1’s life. But not progression blockers. The only game breaking bug I remember from GW1, was a progression blocker on the release day of Nightfall. Venta Cemetery could not be completed, which made it impossible to complete the Nightfall campaign. They fixed that the very next day.

Idk if gear is the problem. I think the incentive to wear other gear is lacking, like you won’t see a thief running cleric’s because the way thief works is more so utility and damage. Healing power scaling is an issue on many professions and the cap on condition stacks is another. Can’t simply remove the cap because that will trash the servers further.

I think the whole “dps only” mind set comes from how the bosses behave. Pull them into a corner, and just swing away. Or run in circles and dps because all of it’s moves are really slow and hit like a baby quaggan. Side objectives and phases are what spices bosses up, but very few bosses show this in a positive way. F&F duo boss was a perfect example of how a boss fight can be difficult and also enjoyable. Lyssa is a pretty good fight too, as is the Megadestroyer. Not every boss can be epic, but there should be enough AND an incentive to fight them through either exclusive boss loot or progress towards some mini quest for skins/consumables.

NinjaEd.3946:

I think the whole “dps only” mind set comes from how the bosses behave. Pull them into a corner, and just swing away. Or run in circles and dps because all of it’s moves are really slow and hit like a baby quaggan. Side objectives and phases are what spices bosses up, but very few bosses show this in a positive way. F&F duo boss was a perfect example of how a boss fight can be difficult and also enjoyable. Lyssa is a pretty good fight too, as is the Megadestroyer. Not every boss can be epic, but there should be enough AND an incentive to fight them through either exclusive boss loot or progress towards some mini quest for skins/consumables.

Well I think the main reason DPS is so more effective, is the fact that the other two roles of the trinity are broken. As a necromancer, lets look at this issue from a necro perspective. Because according to their design philosophy, all classes should be able to fill in the roles of the trinity.

Support

As a necro there isn’t a whole lot of support I can do.

Well of power: I have a well that can convert conditions into boons (it’s not like any of the classes have a big problem with conditions, or if a class like a guardian doesn’t have enough boons). But all wells look the same, so good luck coordinating your team to make use of your wells.
Well of blood, which heals allies slowly, if they stay inside the effect.
Putrid Mark, transfers condition from allies to foes.
Plague Signet, transfers condition from nearby allies to foes.
Spectral Wall, applies protection to allies that run through it.

That’s not a whole lot of support options. Most of them revolve around throwing conditions from allies to foes (which no one really cares about, unless it’s burning). Only one offers healing. and one offers protection. None of them provide protection against projectiles, stability or reflection.

Control

We have fear, which most bosses in the game are immune against. And which sometimes bugs, causing foes to not run away when they should. The entire concept of stacks of defiant is broken. What is the point of spamming control skills on an enemy, reducing his defiant stack very slowly, when all it buys you is the ability to hit that enemy once with a fear, before it regains its entire stack of defiant?! The whole point of control, is the ability to control an enemy at the right moment. Like for example, to protect a downed ally. You cannot do that with the stacks of defiant.

The only way I can see the defiant system working, is if every player is spamming control skills on that boss. Because keep in mind that the boss always receives a minimum of 3 defiant stacks, and up to a number equal to the number of players attacking him. But not all of those players have to be control-focused. So if I’m in a full party of 5 players, and I’m the only one using control skills, he will still gain 5 stacks of defiant. I would have to spam 6 fears on him, in order to fear him once, and then he regains his 5 defiant again. That is POINTLESS. You might as well just spam DPS on him.

@ mad queen

You’re ignoring a lot of supporty things necro brings. They heal a lot on ds 4, heal upon leaving ds (it’s junk but there), regen to allies near mark on #2, summons can take in ally conditions, massive aoe blinds, and a crazy supply of dark fields for added healing with projectiles or more blinds with blast. There’s a good bit more but I can’t think of them atm. They were pretty kitten good back in the day when fear went through defiance but that got nerfed They won’t be stacking might or fury for the team any time soon but to say they don’t bring anything just isn’t right.

randomfightfan.4091:

@ mad queen

You’re ignoring a lot of supporty things necro brings. They heal a lot on ds 4, heal upon leaving ds (it’s junk but there), regen to allies near mark on #2, summons can take in ally conditions, massive aoe blinds, and a crazy supply of dark fields for added healing with projectiles or more blinds with blast. There’s a good bit more but I can’t think of them atm. They were pretty kitten good back in the day when fear went through defiance but that got nerfed They won’t be stacking might or fury for the team any time soon but to say they don’t bring anything just isn’t right.

The death shroud heal is only if you specifically trait in it. Same for when leaving death shroud. As for aoe blinds, those come in handy, but that’s about it. It’s really limited when you compare it to a class like the guardian or the warrior. And that’s my biggest issue, the balance between the classes. Is there any reason to go support as a necro? Would your party care much, if one guardian pretty much out does two fully traited necromancers in the support department?

Is there a good reason to build your necromancer around support, when you could also be building him around conditions and aoe?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

randomfightfan.4091:

@ mad queen

You’re ignoring a lot of supporty things necro brings. They heal a lot on ds 4, heal upon leaving ds (it’s junk but there), regen to allies near mark on #2, summons can take in ally conditions, massive aoe blinds, and a crazy supply of dark fields for added healing with projectiles or more blinds with blast. There’s a good bit more but I can’t think of them atm. They were pretty kitten good back in the day when fear went through defiance but that got nerfed They won’t be stacking might or fury for the team any time soon but to say they don’t bring anything just isn’t right.

The death shroud heal is only if you specifically trait in it. Same for when leaving death shroud. As for aoe blinds, those come in handy, but that’s about it. It’s really limited when you compare it to a class like the guardian or the warrior. And that’s my biggest issue, the balance between the classes. Is there any reason to go support as a necro? Would your party care much, if one guardian pretty much out does two fully traited necromancers in the support department?

Is there a good reason to build your necromancer around support, when you could also be building him around conditions and aoe?

There is. I have a support necro just to ensure the escort to Balth goes smoothly. He’s well and mark based (Dodging also leaves mark of blood.) with apoc gear.
Of coruse that’s about ALL he’s useful though so don’t think for a moment I’m not saying the system is broken. I’m just saying support is there for them, if the game actually called for it.
Oh and thoese bunker necros in SPvP tear my poor ranger to shreds.