Guild Wars 2

or resistant to crits. This will fix the Zerker issue. Or make a boon that does it that more enemies have. Cant see how this will change the game for the worse in any way

Way to fix things backasswards.

Hi.
There is no Zerker issue.
Goodbye.

If you have one broken leg, you don’t fix it by breaking the other leg.

In other words, if one thing works well and other things suck, making the one thing that works well suck only makes everything suck.

/thread

What zerker issue?

I mean, that would be a band-aid solution, really.

The answer is honestly, to make support and control more viable. With everyone and their mothers able to stack all boons pretty much with equal effectiveness regardless of your build… why wouldn’t you maximize the part that DOES become more effective with stats (damage)?

Meanwhile, as control is really only viable on trash mobs (thanks to defiant) and trash mobs can be burned down fairly easily… why bother with control skills?

Azure.8670:

or resistant to crits. This will fix the Zerker issue. Or make a boon that does it that more enemies have. Cant see how this will change the game for the worse in any way

it will punish good players in good gear who are able to survive in that good gear.

and there isnt an issue. the majority of the playerbase doesnt even use berserker.

Theres nothing wrong with full zerk but this game community has made it a problem. Game wise its great, but people kicking people for not being full zerk is ridiculous. Regardless, people always find something so I guess that doesnt matter. However, if theres a condition cap and people complain about 1Hit KOs then why not have SOME resistance to crits? guess im a super minority on this

NoTrigger.8396:

Azure.8670:

or resistant to crits. This will fix the Zerker issue. Or make a boon that does it that more enemies have. Cant see how this will change the game for the worse in any way

it will punish good players in good gear who are able to survive in that good gear.

and there isnt an issue. the majority of the playerbase doesnt even use berserker.

the majority doesnt? you really think that?

yes i do really think that. most people on my friendlist dont use berserker (have alot of lesser experienced friends) and when i pug i mostly meet non-berserker players because i dont care about gear when i pug.

Azure.8670:

NoTrigger.8396:

Azure.8670:

or resistant to crits. This will fix the Zerker issue. Or make a boon that does it that more enemies have. Cant see how this will change the game for the worse in any way

it will punish good players in good gear who are able to survive in that good gear.

and there isnt an issue. the majority of the playerbase doesnt even use berserker.

the majority doesnt? you really think that?

The majority are casual players who only have gear they picked up off normal mobs (greens, rares, maybe some exotics).
I doubt they are even traited in a decent manner.

I doubt they are even traited

The issue isn’t with zerker gear….

….it’s that condi gear in dungeons is practically worthless (bosses tend to condi cleanse and have reduced condi duration), and that tank/healing gear only really keeps the person wearing it alive (there are a few exceptions).

It’s not just zerker that relies on crits; that messes with any build that is built on them… and not to mention all the other innocent stat types that have precision on them.

Sure why not i can melee tequatl with berserker anyway wont waste money to get a tiny hp boost only in this fight when i dont die anyway.

I don`t think nerfing crit damage is going to solve anything. They should increase the benefits of the other stats so they feel more inline and scale better. Then they would be more appealing to use and people would be a little more diverse in gear selection.

Banewrath.5107:

I don`t think nerfing crit damage is going to solve anything. They should increase the benefits of the other stats so they feel more inline and scale better. Then they would be more appealing to use and people would be a little more diverse in gear selection.

THIS!!!

as it stands in the game right now….

• Tripling your Power Stat Will Triple your damage dealt.
• Tripling your Toughness Stat Will Not Triple your Armor value.
• Tripling your Vitality Will Not Triple your Max Health.
• Tripling your Healing Power (adding 2000 healing power is about equal to adding 2000 power, even though healing power starts at 0) Will Triple Regeneration, but Will Not* Triple most of your Heals. (it averages to about 15% every 1000 healing power for most heals)
• Tripling your Condition Damage (same as Healing Power…) Will Triple your Condition Damage, but, if there is One more Condition Build in the Party, it will CUT your ability to deal Condition Damage in Half, meaning that half of your stat investment is WASTED

If Tripling Power Triples your Damage, then….

• Tripling Toughness should Triple your Armor.
• Tripling Vitality should Triple your Max. Health.
• Tripling Healing Power should Triple your heals.

…But Its not. In Anet’s Mission to rid the world of the Holy Trinity of MMO’s (DPS, Tank, Heal), they actually made every stat in the game, not quite useless per say, but definitely not as effective as Power on a 1 for 1 scale.

Instead, we must live our lives under the Tyranny of the most hated of the trinity, DPS. DPS goes by many names, some of the most common being Berzerker and Glass Cannon. We must either worship him, and strive to be like him, or we are not effective in a world where there is no god but DPS. DPS is King, and thus, we are not. We Shall Adapt or curse ourselves to ashes…In the name of the Father (DPS), the Son(DPS), and the Holy Spirit(…also DPS),…Amen…

Seriously though, I did the math, and Power is the single most effective stat in the game. Critical damage is the second most, and besides Precision which only determines critical chance, all other stats fall way behind. Ill post the math if anyone wants me to.

Instead of making mobs crit immune (wouldn’t fit my three “on crit” builds), increase the general defense of mobs. Invent mobs with uber def to force groups to condition damage, instead of just making condition immune mobs.

Chrispy.5641:

as it stands in the game right now….

• Tripling your Power Stat Will Triple your damage dealt.
• Tripling your Toughness Stat Will Not Triple your Armor value.
• Tripling your Vitality Will Not Triple your Max Health.
• Tripling your Healing Power (adding 2000 healing power is about equal to adding 2000 power, even though healing power starts at 0) Will Triple Regeneration, but Will Not* Triple most of your Heals. (it averages to about 15% every 1000 healing power for most heals)
• Tripling your Condition Damage (same as Healing Power…) Will Triple your Condition Damage, but, if there is One more Condition Build in the Party, it will CUT your ability to deal Condition Damage in Half, meaning that half of your stat investment is WASTED

If Tripling Power Triples your Damage, then….

• Tripling Toughness should Triple your Armor.
• Tripling Vitality should Triple your Max. Health.
• Tripling Healing Power should Triple your heals.

Thats right

Chrispy.5641:

…But Its not. In Anet’s Mission to rid the world of the Holy Trinity of MMO’s (DPS, Tank, Heal), they actually made every stat in the game, not quite useless per say, but definitely not as effective as Power on a 1 for 1 scale.

They said, they use a different System of Control, Support and DPS. But put too big Stones in the way of support and control, while making access to DPS very easy.

For Support:
Every Boon is equally strong and they are very easy to access by every build. There is no need for Boon duration, because most of the boons are permanent on. Nor a sat that boosts the boon effect. boost might from 10 to 40 Power for example.

For Control:
Trash is killed to fast and needs less to no control and bosses are immune to those effects, thanks to defiant and unshakable.

For DPS:
We have the only set in game that is full offensive (Berserker) nothing equal for condition plus a condition cap on top.
We have Encounters, that are a huge hp sponge. Noone with high toughness that would “need” more conditions only high hp, less toughness and huge numbers…

We just need some game echanics, promoting earing for non-full zerker. Change it so dodges out of red circles aren’t everything. Force players to take some damage via boss mechanic (Enrage – Boss attacks 10% faster and does 7% more damage for every stack, gained in certain periods of time or like every 5% hp you take from him. When he hits player, he loses one stack but next attacks, let’s say for some rotation or period of time on this player don’t remove next stacks, so to keep Enrage at bay, every player has to get some damage, maybe splitable or reduceable. And let’s say, you can lure boss to some objects which hitted by his attack, remove all stacks and weaken him, broken upon hit, like 3 of them for fight, rewarding smart play and maybe giving some space for non-tough runs). Just an example.

the power to other stats issue is just a small part of the whole problem. yes, they said, “no trinity!” and so, during ALL events, your contribution is based on the damage YOU do — NOT on the support you provide. NOT on the cc which contributes to managing the FEW bosses that can be affected by cc. in short, every single event requires you, the player, to run in a damage build if you are going to get the top score (gold) for contribution. THEN they go and take builds that can be superb at support, or at helping to manage agro, and they say “eh, yeah, no need for effectiveness here.”

anet, we’re BEGGING you. IF you took out the “holy trinity” BUT you left in builds that can, on paper before you remove everything that works right, work well so players can play THEIR way (i.e., i used to heal and tank. i LOVE building support builds. i get no credit, in events, for the support i provide, and MUST go to a damage build) — IF you did these things, then PLEASE reconsider this stance, and find ways to CREDIT people for being willing to do the low-damage builds that provide support to their group.

you want us to play with others. you want us to help and support each other. you designed this game so we get credit for doing it, out in the wilds. why doesn’t that support and design extend to dynamic events, and to dungeons? you really REALLY think that making everyone go into a full-damage build is encouraging the fullest use of the trait trees YOU designed?

Chrispy.5641:

If Tripling Power Triples your Damage, then….

• Tripling Toughness should Triple your Armor.
• Tripling Vitality should Triple your Max. Health.
• Tripling Healing Power should Triple your heals.

So basically what you are saying is that you’d love to see 45k health guardians with 2000 armor and 500+ heals ?
I’d run WvW with a group of guardians. we’d never die.
i’d run PvP with a group of guardians. we’d never die.
I’d run every dungeon with guardians only. we’d never die.

And besides that. EVERYONE would run the same armor.
screw power precision crit on a thief or a ranger.
i’ll go power toughness vitality on every build.
Go full shadows and just chip your health away.

The problem does not lay in the fact that stats don’t scale.
The problem lies in the fact that certain stats don’t scale higher towards classes that use them.
For example a guardian should have healingpower scale more and crit lower.
thiefs should have healingpower lower and crit higher.
Etcetera Etcetera.

If bosses were immune to crits, people would be asking for Soldier instead of Berserker, since that’s the only non-crit mod with Power main stat.

Darsin Callagher.5821:

Chrispy.5641:

If Tripling Power Triples your Damage, then….

• Tripling Toughness should Triple your Armor.
• Tripling Vitality should Triple your Max. Health.
• Tripling Healing Power should Triple your heals.

So basically what you are saying is that you’d love to see 45k health guardians with 2000 armor and 500+ heals ?
I’d run WvW with a group of guardians. we’d never die.
i’d run PvP with a group of guardians. we’d never die.
I’d run every dungeon with guardians only. we’d never die.

And besides that. EVERYONE would run the same armor.
screw power precision crit on a thief or a ranger.
i’ll go power toughness vitality on every build.
Go full shadows and just chip your health away.

The problem does not lay in the fact that stats don’t scale.
The problem lies in the fact that certain stats don’t scale higher towards classes that use them.
For example a guardian should have healingpower scale more and crit lower.
thiefs should have healingpower lower and crit higher.
Etcetera Etcetera.

Actually, since a Guardian’s Base health (+916 Vitality) is 10,805, if they got up to 3,000 Vitality (which is hard to do), and if Vitality scales Health in the same way Power Scales damage (triple the power, triple the damage), then, the Guardian’s health would only triple. In other words, it would be about 32,415, not 45K. Thief and Elementalist would be about the same. And, just so you know, its already possible to get near 30,000 hp with a Guardian with extremely high vitality.

The Problem with Vitality is that it scales the same with all professions, which is, +10 health per point. A Guardian with 20,000 extra health is pretty awesome, and it increases his health by almost 200%, but, a Warrior with 20,000 extra health is not as awesome because his max. health increased by only about 110%. Therefore, it is not as useful for a Warrior to invest into Vitality as it would be for a Guardian or Thief.

So, yes, I am saying that a Warrior who fuly invests in Vitality should see a 200% increase in their health just as a Guardian or Thief would, and a Warrior and Necromancer should both have 55,116 health if they increase their Vitality as far as it will go.

I see no problem with Max. Health going up 200%, if your power can go up 200%, because it would make Vitality a Direct, and viable counter to an Increase in Power.

Also, 2000 armor is kind of pathetic. That’s like, Base Heavy Armor + 916 Toughness, and then you just subtracted 127 of that away. Base Armor with no added toughness for a Guardian would be 2127 (if the wiki is correct).

Now lets do some math to show the disparity between Power and Toughness…. I am going to make Toughness and Defense each equal 1000 for easy math, which equals 2000 armor total.

(Coefficient) x (Power) x (Weapon Power) / (Total Armor [Toughness + Armor])
(1) – 1.0 × 1000 × 1000 / 2000 = 500 damage

(2) – Lets double the power to 2000!
1.0 × 2000 × 1000 / 2000 = 1000 damage

(3) – Lets Triple the power to 3000!
1.0 × 3000 × 1000 / 2000 = 1500 damage!!!

Now, lets double Toughness to 2000, making total Armor stand at 3000…
(1) – 1.0 × 1000 × 1000 / 3000 = 333 damage

(2) – Lets double the power to 2000!
1.0 × 2000 × 1000 / 3000 = 666 damage

(3) – Lets Triple the power to 3000!
1.0 × 3000 × 1000 / 3000 = 1000 damage

Now, lets make Toughness equal 3000, making total Armor stand at 4000…
(1) – 1.0 × 1000 × 1000 / 4000 = 250 damage

(2) – Lets double the power to 2000!
1.0 × 2000 × 1000 / 4000 = 500 damage

(3) – Lets Triple the power to 3000!
1.0 × 3000 × 1000 / 4000 = 750 damage

Well, thats awesome! Having 2000 toughness reduces the damage you take by 33% from what it was, and 3000 toughness reduces the damage you take by 50% from what it was. COOL!….well, Lets take the three that are equal and show you what’s wrong.

Power and Toughness both equal 1000
(1) – 1.0 × 1000 × 1000 / 2000 = 500 damage

Power and Toughness both equal 2000
(2) – 1.0 × 2000 × 1000 / 3000 = 666 damage

Power and Toughness both equal 3000
(3) – 1.0 × 3000 × 1000 / 4000 = 750 damage+

Math don’t lie. 1 Point of Power does not equal 1 Point of Toughness. If power and Toughness were equal at 2000, then Toughness would only be 75% as effective as Power, and at 3000 power and toughness, Toughness is only 66% as effective. It continues down that path too. If Toughness = Power, then all three of those damage numbers would be equal.

I also got the math for healing power if you really want me to show you that.

Also, I’m not saying the game is broken or anything. I’m just saying that the game encourages DPS only classes because other Builds on a 1 for 1 point basis, are not as effective as just going straight into power, every time.

Azure.8670:

or resistant to crits. This will fix the Zerker issue. Or make a boon that does it that more enemies have. Cant see how this will change the game for the worse in any way

Resistant to critical dam—…what is wrong with you?

Where is the Regeneration in this calculation?

Guardians have shields/blocks.
And Mesmers/Necro’s have phantasms/minions.
engies have turrets that provide heal and such other things.
Thieves have stealth

the only person that your calculation directly applies to is a warrior.
as they have to rely on their damage and whatever boons they can get.

Darsin Callagher.5821:

Where is the Regeneration in this calculation?

Guardians have shields/blocks.
And Mesmers/Necro’s have phantasms/minions.
engies have turrets that provide heal and such other things.
Thieves have stealth

the only person that your calculation directly applies to is a warrior.
as they have to rely on their damage and whatever boons they can get.

Evades! Don’t forget Evades! Rangers are filled with those! As well as having pets and spirits. They also have access to a great blocking skill when timed right. And they can go into Stealth!….And all I have to say to that is….so? That makes the fact that Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, and Condition Damage are less effective than Power, any less of something that should be discussed,…because?

Because if played right they shouldn’t get hit only warriors have the real issue here.
And possibly a guardian but they are meant to take the hits.

So like i said scale stats per class and it’ll be alot better.
As a warrior sacrificing damage for health is a tough choice.
as a guardian i couldn’t care less if i do damage or not.

I’m just making you think about the implications increasing health for classes that actually need it versus classes that don’t

and then what repercussions would this have in PvP or WvW.
Changing this stat would unbalance those play modes.
who cares about PvE really. stats only matter if you can’t kill kitten or if you die to fast.

ok wait… we haven’t a trinity right?

but the guardian lose a lot of stats only for have utilities..
against a warrior, that can have perma swiftness also might and vulner on enemy, the warrior can easy be builded as dps because he have a lot of life… Guardian can do dps? yes, obviously but against? he have a really low base health that made a guardian survive only thx timed a mix of skills….
That cause a lot of guardians build more the way of tanky than dps..

so we can start to see something like a trinity no? i don’t think this is correct…
you couldn’t build a guardian with hight res and also hight damage as the warrior.