Guild Wars 2

I’m even against 10 man raids. As I said, 5 people are easy to get “on the fly”, even in smaller guilds. 10 man are already harder to get together, and will require organization and scheduling. Not to mention that 10 man dungeons will mean 10 man dungeon gear, which will become the best gear, and therefore forcing people to do those 10 man dungeons to remain competitive.

Ubung.7423:

Fair question. This is because anything open world can be joined in by anyone. Whether they be a fresh lvl 80 or an experienced dungeoner. For the content to be challenging enough the fear of failure must be a large part. So when someone new to 80 comes a long and does things wrong (no hate for him, hes just new) he will cause the event to fail. Therefore the challenge of the encounter is very random depending on who joins.

See my previous post (the one following what you quoted). Other games, like EQ, didn’t have raids in instances, yet still provided highly challenging large group content.

I want to also add that while we are talking about “fight mechanics”, arenanet needs to get more creative and not just add tons of HP and one-shot abilities. Taking 5-10 minutes to kill a dungeon boss wouldn’t be all that bad if the mechanics were a bit more interesting than “stay out of red circles, and kite the boss”.

I know that this has been brought up many times in many threads, and I hope they have a team of people working on it.

Korrigan.4837:

I’m even against 10 man raids. As I said, 5 people are easy to get “on the fly”, even in smaller guilds. 10 man are already harder to get together, and will require organization and scheduling. Not to mention that 10 man dungeons will mean 10 man dungeon gear, which will become the best gear, and therefore forcing people to do those 10 man dungeons to remain competitive.

Ubung.7423:

Fair question. This is because anything open world can be joined in by anyone. Whether they be a fresh lvl 80 or an experienced dungeoner. For the content to be challenging enough the fear of failure must be a large part. So when someone new to 80 comes a long and does things wrong (no hate for him, hes just new) he will cause the event to fail. Therefore the challenge of the encounter is very random depending on who joins.

See my previous post (the one following what you quoted). Other games, like EQ, didn’t have raids in instances, yet still provided highly challenging large group content.

I never played EQ so i cannot judge. I can only judge based on my own experience and from both wow and gw2 open world bosses just arnt challenging due to the zergy nature of those events. They were fun they just didnt provide a challenge.

cesmode.4257:

I want to also add that while we are talking about “fight mechanics”, arenanet needs to get more creative and not just add tons of HP and one-shot abilities. Taking 5-10 minutes to kill a dungeon boss wouldn’t be all that bad if the mechanics were a bit more interesting than “stay out of red circles, and kite the boss”.

I know that this has been brought up many times in many threads, and I hope they have a team of people working on it.

I agree.

cesmode.4257:

I want to also add that while we are talking about “fight mechanics”, arenanet needs to get more creative and not just add tons of HP and one-shot abilities. Taking 5-10 minutes to kill a dungeon boss wouldn’t be all that bad if the mechanics were a bit more interesting than “stay out of red circles, and kite the boss”.

I know that this has been brought up many times in many threads, and I hope they have a team of people working on it.

You must not have done any 80 dungeons.

Fractals are full of crazy and complex mechanics.

Even CoF has a lot of mechanics for several bosses. And don’t get started on Arah.

No. There just needs to be more and better meta events.

xiv.7136:

cesmode.4257:

I want to also add that while we are talking about “fight mechanics”, arenanet needs to get more creative and not just add tons of HP and one-shot abilities. Taking 5-10 minutes to kill a dungeon boss wouldn’t be all that bad if the mechanics were a bit more interesting than “stay out of red circles, and kite the boss”.

I know that this has been brought up many times in many threads, and I hope they have a team of people working on it.

You must not have done any 80 dungeons.

Fractals are full of crazy and complex mechanics.

Even CoF has a lot of mechanics for several bosses. And don’t get started on Arah.

While your right there are examples of good bosses in the game there are also quite a lot that are how he described them.

xiv.7136:

cesmode.4257:

I want to also add that while we are talking about “fight mechanics”, arenanet needs to get more creative and not just add tons of HP and one-shot abilities. Taking 5-10 minutes to kill a dungeon boss wouldn’t be all that bad if the mechanics were a bit more interesting than “stay out of red circles, and kite the boss”.

I know that this has been brought up many times in many threads, and I hope they have a team of people working on it.

You must not have done any 80 dungeons.

Fractals are full of crazy and complex mechanics.

Even CoF has a lot of mechanics for several bosses. And don’t get started on Arah.

Actually, Ive done all that you have stated..fractals, cof,arah.

COF: There really isnt anything interesting in any of the fight mechanics for any boss in path 1 or 2(the most commonly traveled paths). Point a few out?
Arah: The only boss that is pretty hard and has some interesting things going on is obviously Lupicus. Other than that, groups find a way to sit up on a rock and avoid any and all damage, or hangout behind a rock and just range down the boss, or whatever.
Fractals: While I agree, the mechancis have gotten somewhat better, I still would not say that these bosses are crazy interesting either. Out of the, 9 i think, fractals, only a handful of boss fights spring to mind that are interesting. The fractals themselves, with jumping puzzles and being knocked off the ledges by those kitten harpies, to being turned into dolphins…all very cool. Fractals are a good step in terms of varying up mechanics, but they still have a lot of bosses with tons of HP, ridiculous amount of damage being dished out, and nothing else to it.

Ubung.7423:

Vorch.2985:

There is no need for large group content to be instanced, imo. That is the most exclusionary concept of raids.

There are already dungeons that do this. All were asking is to make the groups inside them larger so we dont have to split up.

.

I would be ok with multi-team instances that require 2, 3, or even 4 teams of five to coordinate in order to complete them (the more teams, the harder it would be to implement). This would keep enemies balanced to 5 man teams while giving people who love raids the mass coordination they desire

However, I am adamantly against large 10-20+ man teams in instances. In these large groups, individuals tend to work less as the expect the rest of the group to pick up the slack. This then leads to people asking for dps meters and the like to make sure people are all contributing (people already asking for these now…). It also allows the slackers to receive the same rewards.

It also leads to even more exclusionary behaviors such as requiring the showing of build and equipment (things that are already happening in 5-man groups).

With content balanced to smaller groups, you don’t need to have add-ons and the like to know if people are pulling their weight. The group simply fails. As such, you need everyone to be much more active. Sure, there are going to be people who contribute more to the success of the group. Still, if you have 2 or more of these individuals, the group will struggle and quite possibly fail.

Drapar.1589:

this game is awesome. really love it so far

But why not make more dungoens and like raids or sort of?
this would be so epic.

this game could be even better if you just add small things to it..

i dont understand why they wouldnt do it..

atleast we have and endgame then.

Pretty sure you can’t call something as massive as raids “small things.”

By raids are you referring to a bigger, longer dungeon with more players? Because if you want more players attacking a single beast this game has DEs which scale.

Even the biggest awesomest “dungeons” in GW1 were still with your standard sized party. But they were long & epic & sprawling. So is that what you want? Because I think that GW1 didn’t even launch with FOW or UW and I know they didn’t have Tombs or the Shiverpeak mines place (can’t remember name).

You can’t say we don’t have endgame. We have dungeons. We have more than Prophecies ever had. And we’re only 4 months in. Give Anet some time and we’ll see even more content. They’ve said that the spring will have patches that will include an expansion’s worth of new content.

Adding onto the fight mechanic mini-discussion: If possible arenanet should steer away from scripted fights and more toward randomness. The one thing that got really old in previous games where I have raided, was doing the dance! Dance dance revolution baby! At 100% stack up, at 75% spread out, at 50% stack up, at 25% kite around the room dosey-doe your partner! at 0% loot.

Snooze.

The mechanics need to trigger randomly, so that it isnt a scripted-dance off.

Korrigan.4837:

Vorch.2985:

There is no need for large group content to be instanced, imo. That is the most exclusionary concept of raids.

Exactly. 5 man dungeons are fine with the GW2 model which doesn’t have that kitten trinity. What they need to do is to add more dungeons like Fractals, and upgrade the other dungeons so all bosses have interesting mechanics like the Fractals ones.
Keep the large group content in the open world. Hell, add more non-instanced dungeons in the open world. I’m not talking about jumping puzzles here, but dungeons you have to fight through but where everybody can enter. Remember EQ when it came out? Raids were not instanced. AC1 had no instanced dungeons at all. Yet those games managed to still add very challenging content.
WoW is not the only MMORPG, and also not the first one. There’s more than grinding instances to a MMORPG.

JSmooth.7654:

I think I know the answer… it is mechanics and group coordination. I dare say that most of the current content, be it current dungeons or open-world, does not require a lot of either. I believe when the players say, “We want raids!”, they actually want complicated/fun fights that requires a larger group of players to coordinate with each-other and actually think about what they’re doing. A lot of the current content could fill this void, but doesn’t in execution… IE zerg fest/corpse run.

ANet has shown with Fractals that they can make 5 man content that requires group coordination. There’s no need for more people.
Actually, challenging 5 man content without the ability to “rez zerg”, like Fractals, can be way harder than any 10 or 25 man raid, because with only 5 men, everyone has more weight and any mistakes way bigger repercussions. If 1 guy out of 25 dies, it’s usually no big deal… If 1 guy out of 5 dies, the group just lost 20% of its members, which has a much bigger impact on the battle.

I like playing with friends… If I can play with more friends, so much the better. With traditional raids, having to coordinate with a larger group was actually part of what made them more challanging (imo). I enjoyed this aspect of it.

Vorch.2985:

Ubung.7423:

Vorch.2985:

There is no need for large group content to be instanced, imo. That is the most exclusionary concept of raids.

There are already dungeons that do this. All were asking is to make the groups inside them larger so we dont have to split up.

.

I would be ok with multi-team instances that require 2, 3, or even 4 teams of five to coordinate in order to complete them (the more teams, the harder it would be to implement). This would keep enemies balanced to 5 man teams while giving people who love raids the mass coordination they desire

However, I am adamantly against large 10-20+ man teams in instances. In these large groups, individuals tend to work less as the expect the rest of the group to pick up the slack. This then leads to people asking for dps meters and the like to make sure people are all contributing (people already asking for these now…). It also allows the slackers to receive the same rewards.

It also leads to even more exclusionary behaviors such as requiring the showing of build and equipment (things that are already happening in 5-man groups).

With content balanced to smaller groups, you don’t need to have add-ons and the like to know if people are pulling their weight. The group simply fails. As such, you need everyone to be much more active. Sure, there are going to be people who contribute more to the success of the group. Still, if you have 2 or more of these individuals, the group will struggle and quite possibly fail.

I actually think that the lack of tanks and healers in the game would stop any slacking in the raid. Becuase they dont have a tank to protect them or a healer to keep em up when they screw up then they would have to be more active and contibute more to the group. If not they would die and keep dying and then you have to train them to be better.

As for forcing showing builds and other such nonsenese, well people will be people. Pretty much everything has a downside if people misuse the tools given to them.

I would not be opposed to Raids as long as it is not exclusive content for the raid. If the raid must have a 5 man version of the same raid, must also give the same rewards with the exception of some title

Raiding goes against the very nature of this game.

To invoke raiding you must:
Force a role structure: To script fights for raid encounters you first must have a very good idea of the class composition. Otherwise it will just be a glorified zerg with no scripting.
This game was designed in mind with having very different classes while maintaining the idea of taking the player and not the class.

Appeal to the lowest possible demographic: Like it or not raiding will always be the lowest demographic. The more bars of entry you require for people to experience content the more people you are turning away.
Find 15 people who play regularly and can guarantee their time, with reasonable communication skills, of a specific class composition, who are reasonably experienced and equipped for the endeavour.

Raiding would be a cop out, raiding would be like saying “Well making world content challenging, scripted and interesting for everyone was just too hard… So we’ll just do it for this minority instead.”

cesmode.4257:

I want to also add that while we are talking about “fight mechanics”, arenanet needs to get more creative and not just add tons of HP and one-shot abilities. Taking 5-10 minutes to kill a dungeon boss wouldn’t be all that bad if the mechanics were a bit more interesting than “stay out of red circles, and kite the boss”.

They do that in Fractals already. And indeed, I’d rather have them improve on that concept for 5 man dungeons.

Would it make some of you feel better to just remove the word “raid”, and change it to “larger, challenging, group focused PvE activities that require team coordination”?

We don’t have that now. World bosses are massive zergs where the other players might as well be NPCs for all they effect you. An occasional boon, maybe a res if you screw up. They don’t know what you are doing, you don’t know what they are doing, and it really doesn’t matter. Might as well be playing with 30 Trehearnes.

Dungeons (with minor exception) are rote and can be done with no communication other than the occasional “skip this”, “ill run this”, " ::ping lucky drop in /p ::". Even Fractals are straight forward enough that parties don’t need to communicate.

In GW, over the course of seven years, you could have done Underworld or Fissure of Woe hundreds of time with other people that have also done it hundreds of times, but you would all still have to chat, plan, ping mobs, doodle approaches on the map. And when you failed, you failed hard. It was brilliant.

That’s what people are asking for, all stigmas of a “raid” removed, we want to play with larger groups of people through content that demands more and challenges us as players and as a cooperative, cohesive, highly functional group.

Alice.8694:

Raiding goes against the very nature of this game.

To invoke raiding you must:
Force a role structure: To script fights for raid encounters you first must have a very good idea of the class composition. Otherwise it will just be a glorified zerg with no scripting.
This game was designed in mind with having very different classes while maintaining the idea of taking the player and not the class.

Appeal to the lowest possible demographic: Like it or not raiding will always be the lowest demographic. The more bars of entry you require for people to experience content the more people you are turning away.
Find 15 people who play regularly and can guarantee their time, with reasonable communication skills, of a specific class composition, who are reasonably experienced and equipped for the endeavour.

Raiding would be a cop out, raiding would be like saying “Well making world content challenging, scripted and interesting for everyone was just too hard… So we’ll just do it for this minority instead.”

Force a role structure? Like how the 5man dungeons have forced a role structure?

Bars for entry turn people away? In that OTHER mmo, the raids have bars for entry; and *gasp, people actually work towards them. People will whine that they don’t have time or the skill to “raid”, get over it.

Find 15 people? I’d be happy with 10. Wait… what you’re saying is that we’d actually be using our guild structure for something constructive? I see this as a plus.

Raiding would be a cop out? I’ve actually kinda responded to this already in a previous post in this thread. GW2 has the tools to fill the raid niche without actualy creating anything entirely new. But most of the current encounters can be reduced to either zergs or corpse walks…

cesmode.4257:

Snowy.9580:

A GW2 raid would look something like…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cFucXYlw94

Shame I could see one with 25 people all rolling like tumbleweeds!

Hilarious. And the running part is because everyone in this game LOVES to skip stuff. Never have I played an MMO where people skip so much in a dungeon, or have unique work arounds for an encounter. Its obsurd.

So true, that is exactly how i feel about GW2 Dungeons, i’m not sure why Anet doesn’t just have an npc on the dungeons doors handing out 3gold and 180 tokens a day, because that is how it feels these days skipping everything..

Would it make some of you feel better to just remove the word “raid”, and change it to “larger, challenging, group focused PvE activities that require team coordination”?

—

No. It wouldn’t. The problem isn’t the word, it’s that you want a special tier that only certain guilds can reliably complete.

AcidicVision.5498:

Would it make some of you feel better to just remove the word “raid”, and change it to “larger, challenging, group focused PvE activities that require team coordination”?

We don’t have that now. World bosses are massive zergs where the other players might as well be NPCs for all they effect you. An occasional boon, maybe a res if you screw up. They don’t know what you are doing, you don’t know what they are doing, and it really doesn’t matter. Might as well be playing with 30 Trehearnes.

Dungeons (with minor exception) are rote and can be done with no communication other than the occasional “skip this”, “ill run this”, " ::ping lucky drop in /p ::". Even Fractals are straight forward enough that parties don’t need to communicate.

In GW, over the course of seven years, you could have done Underworld or Fissure of Woe hundreds of time with other people that have also done it hundreds of times, but you would all still have to chat, plan, ping mobs, doodle approaches on the map. And when you failed, you failed hard. It was brilliant.

That’s what people are asking for, all stigmas of a “raid” removed, we want to play with larger groups of people through content that demands more and challenges us as players and as a cooperative, cohesive, highly functional group.

I really like your posts acidic.

Sylv.5324:

ASB.4295:

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest

This is exactly the type of attitude showing why I hope they never allow raids. All it does is set the community against each other.

You get this in every MMO that does or does not have raids. In GW2, you get that now when pugging Fractals.

Raids aren’t the problem there. It’s the players. You’re focusing on the wrong things.

Sylv.5324:

Would it make some of you feel better to just remove the word “raid”, and change it to “larger, challenging, group focused PvE activities that require team coordination”?

—

No. It wouldn’t. The problem isn’t the word, it’s that you want a special tier that only certain guilds can reliably complete.

Tier of what exactly?

Gear stats? no
Difficulty? yes
Cooperation? yes
More people? yes
More thinking? yes

Other-wise, what is there to challange us?

Do you honestly want more grind? instead of more skill?

Sylv.5324:

No. It wouldn’t. The problem isn’t the word, it’s that you want a special tier that only certain guilds can reliably complete.

What in the world makes you think that? Did anyone ever say there should be a sign on the dungeon door that didn’t let anyone in unless every party member had the same guild tag?

Pugs can still complete hard content, pugs can still use voice chat.

If there were 8,10,12 man group events and challenges you would still be having people make groups for it in LA just like anything else. And you have the choice to be in multiple guilds if you don’t want to pug, and would like to be on a roster considered for that type of content because your guild doesn’t dig on it.

It sounds like you are worried you wouldn’t be able to find a group to do something of that nature, and rather than accept there are other possibilities you would just prefer no one at all has the option.

If you don’t remember, at launch there was a huge amount of noise about how the dungeons would only be able to be done by guilds because they were sooooo hard and mobs did sooooo much damage. Colin said to wait and see how players adapt, and look at them now? Pug groups everywhere for every dungeon. But that doens’t mean anything should be “reliable to complete”. It’s a game not a movie, there shouldn’t be a pay-off for just sitting there long enough looking at the screen.

I love raids too.

How about raids that function like the Lost Shore last day event?
That was simply epic and something to desire for. (100-500 players together)

If it has something like that to play about daily, it can help in the low online player concurrency problem. Be sure to lead players to it too. (Time of spawn, world announcement etc).

Mungrul.9358:

Then you’re playing a different game to me. I’m always exploring, making alts, playing a little WvW, doing a dungeon here and there, crafting gear, etc.
There’s plenty to keep me occupied.

Your endgame is not my endgame.
Your idea of what endgame should be is close-minded and conservative and guided by your experiences with other games which you’d rather GW2 was.

You just said it. Your end game is doing all those things. And that’s fine. That’s one type of end game. One that many enjoy. Another is WvW and sPVP. Others enjoy 5 man content. And then there’s those of us who want to raid with our guild.

You may not enjoy it, but you don’t have to. Why should your version of Endgame be the only end game that’s viable? Why not allow everyone to have the endgame they want?

Korrigan.4837:

I’ve been a fervent raider in WoW, up to hardcore (hard/heroic modes), up to 4 days a week. And that’s exactly why I don’t want raids in this game.
Elitist, scheduled content, which ends being like a second job, has no place in a video game people play for fun.
5 man content like fractals, which is a huge improvement over the old dungeons (which are going to be revamped), is perfect. It’s accessible, a group can be formed “on the fly” without having to schedule your life around the game.
Want to raid? Play “pandaland”. You can raid there, and still play GW2 since there’s no subscription. But I don’t want this game ruined by that kind of “end game” content.
This game needs to stay on track with its manifesto. They need to add more content in the open world, things like housing you can decorate, mounts you can collect, fishing, mini games like the keg brawl one, open world bosses, etc…, and not more instanced stuff.

Look, Just because Blizzard designed raids to work in a way that you had to WORK to get the best gear and see all the content doesn’t at all mean that has to happen here. It doesn’t mean that raid gear will be the best. It doesn’t mean that you have to raid to enjoy the end game.

As many have said, there’s lots of other endgame activities for those who don’t like raiding and if done right, including raids wont impact people who don’t want to do them AT ALL.

This nonsensical idea that somehow adding content that obviously people want will somehow ruin your game is pretty out there. Especially considering how many “sacred cows” ArenaNet changed to break the molds of games like WoW and Rift. I’m certain they can change the way we think about Raid content in MMOs.

There’s no reason that 5-man encounters can’t be made just as difficult and interesting as any raid encounter. Unfortunately none of the encounters in GW2 are that great, except maybe a couple of those in Arah, but that’s just because ANet’s PvE encounter design needs some work, not because we need raids.

Why is this in suggestions now? The OP was a question, and we are discussing the merits and issues with larger party, instanced PvE content and it’s impact on “end-game” perceptions. Besides some hypothetical solutions to convey an idea, this wasn’t a suggestion thread, so why condemn it to the abyss?

@Conwolv:
Because adding raids would be the first step on a slippery slope.
Once raiders have raids, the vocal ones would then ask for better rewards for raids.
Then raids of different tiers with further better rewards.

This is what raiders have played in all other raid focussed games and what they will therefore expect if raids are implemented in GW2.

Let alone which, in all games that have chosen to include raids as a form of end game content, the developers have eventually ended up pouring the obvious majority of resources into further developing more raid content.

I don’t want to see development resources poured in to something I or the majority of the community will never experience.

Oh yeah, that’s the other problem. I’d guess that less than 10% of the population in most MMOs ever get to experience the highest level raid tier.
Probably less.

Raids are worthless, not utilising the resources of MMOs to their potential and explicitly tailored for a minority audience.

Again, go play one of the dozens of other games that do raids rather than trying to force them on GW2.

Hyde.6189:

There’s no reason that 5-man encounters can’t be made just as difficult and interesting as any raid encounter. Unfortunately none of the encounters in GW2 are that great, except maybe a couple of those in Arah, but that’s just because ANet’s PvE encounter design needs some work, not because we need raids.

That’s only part of what we want. Challenging content yes, but also content that me and my guild (or a really good pug group) can do as a unit. 5 player content just doesn’t cut it.

As it stands now, there’s nothing in PVE for a guild to do as a guild that doesn’t involve open world zergs and breaking up into smaller groups.

Hyde.6189:

There’s no reason that 5-man encounters can’t be made just as difficult and interesting as any raid encounter. Unfortunately none of the encounters in GW2 are that great, except maybe a couple of those in Arah, but that’s just because ANet’s PvE encounter design needs some work, not because we need raids.

Of course you can make 5 man just as challenging as raids. No one will question that. This isnt about whether 5 mans are difficult. We want raids because we want that difficulty but with a larger group so our whole guild can join in. I do agree the 5 mans do need looking at a bit in terms of encounter design and structure.

Mungrul.9358:

-snip-

That is ridiculous. Once again you are stuck in the mindset that raids require a gear-grind and are super elitist content and development vacuums.

Did you play GW? If you did then you know the two party co-op missions in Factions were a blast. Urgoz was a great dungeon. Underworld and Fissure of Woe were done well enough to stay relevant for over half a decade.

And unless you were trying to get on to a very very specific speed farming group, then anyone could do that content. If you wanted to get in to those speed clears eventually, practice groups were constantly being run.

You should stop trying to pigeon hole the simple idea in to something identically done in many other games. Especially when Anet has done this already before and done it well.

Edit:
Arah is really the only dungeon that is long, difficult and open enough for this situation to apply, but lets say Arah was an 8 man-party instance, how would that change anything or how would any of your concerns apply to it? They wouldn’t. The only thing that would change would be that guilds and friends could play it in a larger group and people that would otherwise never have the chance will get to complete it.

That very simple concept is what people are talking about here. Instances along the lines of Arah in terms of length, with the difficulty adjusted for larger groups, so there are more things to do with more people.

No one is trying to apply the idea of traditional raid content and raid end-game and raid tiers to GW2, except for you in your criticisms.

I played original GW from the first public beta, yes.
But it was never an MMO, and I never considered any of the high level content to be raids.
Indeed, neither did ArenaNet.
They were never called raids, and their party sizes were dramatically smaller than those of traditional MMO raids.
Even so, they were still very much the domain of elitists with annoyingly particular reliance on cookie cutter builds (another thing I despise about raids – reliance on set-in-stone builds).

You’re trying to confuse the issue by implying GW had raids when it never did.

I’ve been a reluctant raider in various other games, and they were all the same, and always the same, content never changing. The builds you used to play them were always the same. The enemies always performed the same actions, never varying from script.

And again, only the minority got to experience them.

Be content that the dungeons and fractals are already here and that they will be tweaking them. There’s your instanced content. It’s already far too much in my eyes.

Going to have to disagree with you Mungrul. The simple fact that this game has more of a horizontal progression platform means that most players coming here to raid will understand that power levels wont increase much (if at all). That raids are progression (defeat more bosses at harder difficulties) that is content driven, not gear driven.

There will always be some who will want things to be like other games. Most of us aren’t asking for that here, if you read the posts by the people in this thread.

You accused us of being narrow minded about end-game. But it seems that you have this narrow vision of what raids entail and what they’ll bring. You’re worried about the way things are in other games. However, nothing in GW2 is like other MMOs. Why think that raids will somehow be different?

AcidicVision.5498:

Why is this in suggestions now? The OP was a question, and we are discussing the merits and issues with larger party, instanced PvE content and it’s impact on “end-game” perceptions. Besides some hypothetical solutions to convey an idea, this wasn’t a suggestion thread, so why condemn it to the abyss?

Moderator has moved it + renamed the tittle since my english is crap.

Mungrul.9358:

@Conwolv:
Because adding raids would be the first step on a slippery slope.

Please be careful when using this term. Your post actually defines the idea you are trying to dispute.

The sad thing is, I love this game. Love the mechanics and the gameplay style. I think raiding would be amazing in this game. However, without it, there’s nothing for a PVE progression guild to do. So, we end up only playing it every once in a while, looking at it longingly, wishing for something that may never be.

We’re just not playing the game as much. And when we’re not playing the game, we’re not buying stuff on the BLTC. We’re not adding to the community. We’re not populating the world, etc.

Every other type of MMO player is represented here. The Dynamic Event experiement to replace the need and want for raids didn’t work.

So now we’re here, trying to convince ArenaNet to take a second look at raiding and build something that fits this game for raiders like us. We want it to fit the game we love and we don’t want to ruin the game for anyone else.

Drapar.1589:

AcidicVision.5498:

Why is this in suggestions now? The OP was a question, and we are discussing the merits and issues with larger party, instanced PvE content and it’s impact on “end-game” perceptions. Besides some hypothetical solutions to convey an idea, this wasn’t a suggestion thread, so why condemn it to the abyss?

Moderator has moved it + renamed the tittle since my english is crap.

They removed your title because your english is bad and replace it with “Why not make more dungeons and like raids or sort of?”?

Really? That sentence is bad, bad english. The correct way to chage your thread title would be to say “Why not make raid versions of the current 5 mans”. or evn better to tell the whole story “A discussion on how to implement large scale, raid like content without damaging the game”

Ubung.7423:

Drapar.1589:

AcidicVision.5498:

Why is this in suggestions now? The OP was a question, and we are discussing the merits and issues with larger party, instanced PvE content and it’s impact on “end-game” perceptions. Besides some hypothetical solutions to convey an idea, this wasn’t a suggestion thread, so why condemn it to the abyss?

Moderator has moved it + renamed the tittle since my english is crap.

They removed your title because your english is bad and replace it with “Why not make more dungeons and like raids or sort of?”?

Really? That sentence is bad, bad english. The correct way to chage your thread title would be to say “Why not make raid versions of the current 5 mans”. or evn better to tell the whole story “A discussion on how to implement large scale, raid like content without damaging the game”

Fixed

JSmooth.7654:

Please be careful when using this term. Your post actually defines the idea you are trying to dispute.

Please describe how.
I’m intrigued.

Notice I’m arguing against the addition of raid-style content. Nowhere have I expounded on how I believe the game should develop.
Without knowing that, you cannot say that my ideas are the beginning of a slippery slope.

Take things a step further than group events: Guild Events.

Amariithynar.1470:

Take things a step further than group events: Guild Events.

Those would be a great addition as well. Not a replacement for raiding, I think, but I’d love to see this in game. More things to do of all types is always good.

Mungrul.9358:

JSmooth.7654:

Please be careful when using this term. Your post actually defines the idea you are trying to dispute.

Please describe how.
I’m intrigued.

Notice I’m arguing against the addition of raid-style content. Nowhere have I expounded on how I believe the game should develop.
Without knowing that, you cannot say that my ideas are the beginning of a slippery slope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

You’re afraid that this first step will lead to a down-hill spiral. You used the term in your statement; but your statement defines the term. I don’t want to get into a “me vs you” post fest… I just simply wanted to say, be careful when using that term.

Ragnarok Online have instanced dungeons for 12 people, it can give good loot (well it´s an realyl old MMO, they don´t know well how to make some things). GW1 have dungeons for 12 people just giving cosmetic gear.

Why not make a dungeon for 8+ people with the same system of the other dungeons?

This game is more about cosmetic armors and weapons than anything. Yeah I know about the ascended, but in some time no one will ever remember the ascended kitten and it will be common place like exotics from AC or COF.

Raids in generics MMO don´t have place in GW2, but more space for bigger guilds will not hurt anyone.

Let’s get this straight, people. Everyone who doesn’t want raids are obviously scared because of how other games have done them. You all have seen Guild Wars 2, and we know how differently they do things.

Why are we asking for raids or dungeons that allow more people? Because guild that have a active community have nothing to do together, especially if they are a PvE endgame guild. The guild has to split up and do easy dungeons in groups of five. Sure, meta events need a revamp, but I don’t see them becoming harder since everyone is allowed.

We need raids for guilds on the PvE endgame side, that are looking for a large group challenge other than those events. There doesn’t have the be better gear, just skins, like dungeons. They could revamp dungeons and make them harder, but that still doesn’t bring more guild members together like raiding does.

Chase.8415:

Raids aren’t good for this game for several reasons:

A. It promotes class composition, forcing friends and guilds to abandon certain people because they weren’t a guardian, for example.

B. The graphics of the game is higher than the normal standard and with the amount of combat there is in the game with having to dodge and everything, would be a FPS nigmare.

C. This game is intended to be a bridge between casual and hardcore. I am a casual myself for example, playing about 2 hours a day. When you implement raids, they generally take HOURS to complete. Not only that, you have to schedule several players and HOPE they show up on time.

D. It indirectly destroy small guilds, because no one will even attempt to wait out until the guild gets slightly larger before raiding. Currently, small guilds like mine can progress. My guild for example has 8 members and we are at LvL 20 FOTM.

Not to mention the 5 man content is difficult in itself, I don’t see a reason what makes a difference.

I don’t know where you’re getting the graphic issue from, and honestly I don’t care.

Because if they put on 1000 mobs on screen at the same time all doing different things shouldn’t effect performance issues if your pc can handle it.
This game just has poor performance issues to begin with.
I’m running two 580gtx, i7 core, and 16 gigs of ram, but during the winter day in lions arch I was getting 13 fps..

Really?

The people who shout. “You’re not suppose to have 60fps with 80 people on screen” are talking right out of there kitten. The amount of mobs/graphics shouldn’t effect the performance if you exceed the proper requirements.

What effects performance is poorly codding, and a badly made engine.

Strikerjolt.5910:

Chase.8415:

Raids aren’t good for this game for several reasons:

A. It promotes class composition, forcing friends and guilds to abandon certain people because they weren’t a guardian, for example.

B. The graphics of the game is higher than the normal standard and with the amount of combat there is in the game with having to dodge and everything, would be a FPS nigmare.

C. This game is intended to be a bridge between casual and hardcore. I am a casual myself for example, playing about 2 hours a day. When you implement raids, they generally take HOURS to complete. Not only that, you have to schedule several players and HOPE they show up on time.

D. It indirectly destroy small guilds, because no one will even attempt to wait out until the guild gets slightly larger before raiding. Currently, small guilds like mine can progress. My guild for example has 8 members and we are at LvL 20 FOTM.

Not to mention the 5 man content is difficult in itself, I don’t see a reason what makes a difference.

I don’t know where you’re getting the graphic issue from, and honestly I don’t care.

Because if they put on 1000 mobs on screen at the same time all doing different things shouldn’t effect performance issues if your pc can handle it.
This game just has poor performance issues to begin with.
I’m running two 580gtx, i7 core, and 16 gigs of ram, but during the winter day in lions arch I was getting 13 fps..

Really?

The people who shout. “You’re not suppose to have 60fps with 80 people on screen” are talking right out of there kitten. The amount of mobs/graphics shouldn’t effect the performance if you exceed the proper requirements.

What effects performance is poorly codding, and a badly made engine.

This is also true.

bad optimazition.

i5 3570K 4.6Ghz
GTX680 LIGHTNING 2GB
2×4GB 1600hz

alot of drops in WVW in zerg fest.

nonono. this is not my pc.

its the game itself that needs better optimazation.

imagine the for example 25 man dungoens just for en example.. let the framerate drops begin lol.

cesmode.4257:

Adding onto the fight mechanic mini-discussion: If possible arenanet should steer away from scripted fights and more toward randomness. The one thing that got really old in previous games where I have raided, was doing the dance! Dance dance revolution baby! At 100% stack up, at 75% spread out, at 50% stack up, at 25% kite around the room dosey-doe your partner! at 0% loot.

Snooze.

The mechanics need to trigger randomly, so that it isnt a scripted-dance off.

While any raid “dance” gets repetitive after the 20th time you do it… for me, these dances have been much more interesting and engaging than GW2’s staple zerg or corpse run.

domxnik.1453:

Let’s get this straight, people. Everyone who doesn’t want raids are obviously scared because of how other games have done them. You all have seen Guild Wars 2, and we know how differently they do things.

Why are we asking for raids or dungeons that allow more people? Because guild that have a active community have nothing to do together, especially if they are a PvE endgame guild. The guild has to split up and do easy dungeons in groups of five. Sure, meta events need a revamp, but I don’t see them becoming harder since everyone is allowed.

We need raids for guilds on the PvE endgame side, that are looking for a large group challenge other than those events. There doesn’t have the be better gear, just skins, like dungeons. They could revamp dungeons and make them harder, but that still doesn’t bring more guild members together like raiding does.

nice post

Ubung.7423:

domxnik.1453:

Let’s get this straight, people. Everyone who doesn’t want raids are obviously scared because of how other games have done them. You all have seen Guild Wars 2, and we know how differently they do things.

Why are we asking for raids or dungeons that allow more people? Because guild that have a active community have nothing to do together, especially if they are a PvE endgame guild. The guild has to split up and do easy dungeons in groups of five. Sure, meta events need a revamp, but I don’t see them becoming harder since everyone is allowed.

We need raids for guilds on the PvE endgame side, that are looking for a large group challenge other than those events. There doesn’t have the be better gear, just skins, like dungeons. They could revamp dungeons and make them harder, but that still doesn’t bring more guild members together like raiding does.

nice post

yep