Gameplay Mechs and why it isn't meant to be.

Gameplay Mechs and why it isn't meant to be.

in Tequatl Rising

Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

Greetings everyone! I want to point out a few things here which I found interesting in the two attempts that I did with Taco. (Now while two isn’t a great deal of attempts, I’ll explain why that was enough below)

First of all I want to talk about a typical raid or dungeon environment and I want to tell you why it works.

First of all, time. Time is a big part on this one because people don’t have a lot of it. Not to mention focus, timing, and effort take a lot out of a person, and they can’t be expected to give the same amount of time and effort all day long.

This is why a raid encounter is lost by all party members losing hp and eventually dying. (typically)
The reason for this is because it’s a quick way to tell players that they lost, to reset the fight, preparing it for them to attempt it again, and for the players to try new tactics. Time is greatly reduced for players because if they had to go the full time of an encounter each time they fought the boss, they would feel like their time was wasted, and they would feel very discouraged over time, ultimately making them feel like it wasn’t worth their valuable time, or effort. (I see this already happening with Taco).

Another thing to look into is resets. Normally you would have as long as you would like on a boss (to a certain extent) and it would reset on a standard day allowing you to fight the boss until you were content. Having a boss on a timer makes you waste an entire day focusing on killing a boss that seems hopeless. For those of you who don’t have a lot of time, this can be extremely frustrating and it may even put you off from the game. Knowing that you’re a skilled player, that wants to dedicate the time, but feels helpless due to the lack of coordinated assistance by players that you have no emotional attachment to and overall could care less about is a huge factor in this as well.

Which brings me to my next statement. Most things that require coordination in MMOS are almost always beat via VOIPS, or online voice chat. The reason for this is because typing during a fight will often leave you dead due to standing in one place. This is seen during the taco fight, as there is no easy way for all players to communicate with all of the other players easily without dying. Which leads to a lack of coordination, which defeats the purpose of having a fight like Taco that requires coordination. This ultimately leads to frustrated players, players that feel like they could easily do it if they had as many of them as there were people who didn’t care to listen, or to grow with the fight.

My next observation would have to be stragglers. In dungeons or raids you wouldn’t have stragglers. If the group felt someone was mooching, they removed them and got a replacement. Someone that could fill the shoes. What happens here? That person stays regardless of how well they actually play or contribute to the event. Most likely a better suited and skilled player is thrown into an overflow server and cannot join the main group on the home server due to that slot now being filled by someone that doesn’t care about actually finishing the fight.

Leading on from the last observation; Why care about learning the mechanics? Why not just wait for everyone else to learn them and just mooch off of them after they learn it? One of the first things I thought of as a player was why learn the fight? I don’t have time to stay logged in every hour or two just to wait for the fight to happen so I can waste 30 minutes of typing out to each player how to do the fight, so I can constantly die in poison clouds from not being able to move while having to pay a durability fine and while having to sort through overflow servers to even get to play with my friends in my party all the while thinking about how it would just be easier to get loot champ farming. (<3 run on sentences)

To sum it all up; despite watching the sneak peek video of Taco, being pumped for a few weeks for this content, and while going in and giving it my all with the understanding that I would have to learn the fight, and get good at it, I felt that this type of encounter should never be done for an entire zone wide event. The reason world bosses work in other MMOs is because they don’t have a swarm of people on them. They have a limited number which means it can be controlled, contained, and it can be coordinated. These three C’s seem to be the three C’s this game is currently lacking when it comes to developing content. And while “A FERARRI IN EVERY GARAGE!” and “A HAT ON EVERY HEAD!” sounds great, it doesn’t pan out that well when you try to throw challenge into the mix. (If anyone didn’t get that reference, I’m referring to loot for everyone as long as they participate)

ALL IN ALL——— Put challenging content in dungeons/raids where groups of 5+ can tackle content in a controlled, contained, and coordinated environment.

Gameplay Mechs and why it isn't meant to be.

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

I think if people read this they would be surprised on how much it made sense.

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Posted by: Denial Of Service.5732

Denial Of Service.5732

Well written and well presented!

have all my upvotes its the same i was thinking and i even posted but since my main language isnt english is a tad difficult for me to express correctly what are my thoughts on this event.

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

Well written and well presented!

have all my upvotes its the same i was thinking and i even posted but since my main language isnt english is a tad difficult for me to express correctly what are my thoughts on this event.

I really appreciate the read! I know it was a long wall of text, but I felt something like this deserved a lot of explaining!

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Posted by: jweez.7214

jweez.7214

Spot on. Anet doing this type of content was just a flawed idea from inception.

Very well done post OP.

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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

See, now whilst I’m not totally in agreement with what you say (I also still think its too early to call judgement on this)…it’s nice to see a well argued and constructive post compared to the deluge of “other” threads on here today.

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

Thanks a lot guys. I felt that if I approached this, I should at least argue both sides of it and try to explain to the best of my knowledge. I really hope more people read this as I feel pretty strongly about it.

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Posted by: hydeaut.1758

hydeaut.1758

I also find it ridiculous how some loud-mouths cry for raid-like difficulty in an open world event.

In addition to your arguments the game-engine is much to limited, add this to your list:

- no cast-bars on boss-abilities
- no tuning of optical effects possible
- condition-damage is screwed with the cap
- skill-lags

- crap rewards compared to raids

Basically it´s like Anet tries to arrange a Formula 1-race with trucks – in a water-park

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

The mechanics are definitely buggered here. “Build” & Coordination ones especially.

I like that they finally made all the stuff around the event actually matter. Dont’ get me wrong. But it’s clear that they didn’t factor in the full effects of upscaling vs “pubbers” and how that would also frustrate the people who are actually qualified & experienced enough to belong in the fight in the first place.

…In a nutshell: LOGISTICS. <— Get better at this Anet, plz.

(edited by ilr.9675)

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Posted by: KaiserCX.7103

KaiserCX.7103

Honestly I don’t really feel like I’m being greatly challenged through this fight. I do certainly enjoy fighting the new Teq, he is certainly well done and fun to fight, but on a personal skill level I truly don’t feel like I’m being challenged that hard. The true challenge is just having people coordinate which just isn’t working yet for most servers it seems.

This has kind of made me torn between my opinion on whether this needs to be nerfed or not (definitely shouldn’t be so early, give it at least a week minimum). I am hopeful people will learn where and what they should be doing at all times.

I will say the problem doesn’t even purely come down to everyone’s personal skill level, I’ve seen some commanders try to have people stack outside of 900 range which is just not smart. You can have a good bunch of players, but if you have a bad commander leading then you’re not going to succeed. So yeah, if people are still consistently failing after a week or two I definitely think it should be nerfed as much as I hate to say it, the rewards (so far) don’t equal the difficulty of this fight as is.

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

I agree with all of this. I constantly feel frustrated when every time I go to do the event, I’m met with either very little people doing the event (now) or a swarm of idiots not following directions.

I’ve spent the time doing as much research as I can on the fight, as well as making sure I have everything I need to do my best (potions etc) and still I just find myself getting frustrated and overwhelmed by the amount of time I’m wasting, and the lack of other people grasping the idea of how to take him down.

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Posted by: hedix.1986

hedix.1986

Spot on OP! While I quite enjoyed the Teq attempt yesterday, it is very clear that it needs a determined, well coordinated and preferably well geared mass of people. It could be done, gz Blackgate, but when winning relies on so many people a lot of whom don’t even read the chat, it makes the skill of several (even say 30+) determined players worth nothing. Even if some people do learn, there’s always the issue of coordinating / teaching a lot of new players / whoever comes for the encounter.
Relying on a mass other random people doesn’t really work, as seen with the Scarlet invasions. A more controlled environment would be much appreciated for this content.

It takes a lot, and I’m not against challenging content, but this just means that not every server will be able to do it, or willing to do it after the achievements are done.

[QQ] – ex RoS, current Piken Square
[DV] – megaboss community

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

Spot on OP! While I quite enjoyed the Teq attempt yesterday, it is very clear that it needs a determined, well coordinated and preferably well geared mass of people. It could be done, gz Blackgate, but when winning relies on so many people a lot of whom don’t even read the chat, it makes the skill of several (even say 30+) determined players worth nothing. Even if some people do learn, there’s always the issue of coordinating / teaching a lot of new players / whoever comes for the encounter.
Relying on a mass other random people doesn’t really work, as seen with the Scarlet invasions. A more controlled environment would be much appreciated for this content.

It takes a lot, and I’m not against challenging content, but this just means that not every server will be able to do it, or willing to do it after the achievements are done.

Agreed. It’s sad knowing that my only way to beat this is to transfer off of my server, or wait until the end of the month for a chance. We will see how it goes, but I don’t suspect this will get much better in time.

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Posted by: Chewablesleeptablet.3185

Chewablesleeptablet.3185

So what you are saying it is Anet’s fault that Tequatl can’t be beaten and not the player’s?

I would rather see the GW2 community up their game rather than 5 man elitists fuel their egos.

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

So what you are saying it is Anet’s fault that Tequatl can’t be beaten and not the player’s?

I would rather see the GW2 community up their game rather than 5 man elitists fuel their egos.

As a video game designer I can tell you that this isn’t good game design. Having multiple gray areas affect the outcome of a battle rather than it actually being about skill is a terrible thing, and it is very demeaning to players.

- People leveling in the zone taking up slots.
- People doing map completion in the zone.
- People doing achievements or jump puzzles.
- Stragglers.
- People new to the fight

While I’m sure you’re thinking people new to the fight? Why is that a bad thing? Because it gives you no time to teach the new player what is happening. You have no time to personally sit this new person down and explain fights. It’s poor game design when every 3 or so hours a flood of new people come in to try it out, and they waste the time of everyone there. This halts progression and it makes the people that have tried it 2,3,4,5+ times feel it’s no longer worth their time and effort when they have spent a total of 3 or so hours just trying to do it, and they have seen no reward or compensation for their time wasted.

I’m all for everyone getting better at the game, but this isn’t the way to do it. So yes, I’m saying this is Anet’s fault that this event went this way. It is their inexperience, as well as their ability to not follow the beaten path. At the same time this is good, and they will learn from their mistakes, they just need to understand that this isn’t how they go about it.

(edited by Criminon.8432)

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Posted by: Ace.1726

Ace.1726

The revamped Tequatl fight is a great start for changes in the open world but it doesn’t replace instanced raids.

The Tequatl highlights why Guild Wars 2 needs instanced raids. The hardest part about Tequatl is trying to get players to do simple players.

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Posted by: WyldKat.4712

WyldKat.4712

Basically it´s like Anet tries to arrange a Formula 1-race with trucks – in a water-park

Yeah, but I might buy a ticket to see that, as long as there are boiled peanuts and beer at the concession stands.

Zestee, Cryptician Zetti, Zissi The Jack, Zi Mao,
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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

Another idea while I just tried Taco for the 6th or 7th time…. How about we have both? How about Anet keeps Taco just the way he is here, and then they create a raid system where we actually go to when he’s not attacking and kick his patoot there?

Why do we have to wait for him to show up on the shore? Why do we have to constantly beckon every time he calls? How about he beckons when we call? I wasted an entire day just trying to do Taco, and now I can safely say I’m done with it. There is no way to not get into an overflow unless you’re lucky or there early, there is very little time to prepare or to organize. No one listens if you do. The list goes on and on.

Give us raids. Give us raids. Give us raids. Screw him showing up every 3 hours, screw time limits, screw needing 60+ people. Screw all of that. If you’re going to make us need that many people at least let us choose them.