Guild Wars 2

DarksunG.9537:

males identifying with male characters in a male-focused form of entertainment about male-centric activities? Oh NOES! they MUST be hate-mongers!

Lol. “Male, male, male” is what you’re telling me here. All these things must be preconceived as “male”. You’re proving my point beautifully.

Besides, i never said anything about anyone being a hater-monger or misogynist or whatever. It’s just facepalm-inducing for people to clamor for male affirmative action in a media that is traditionally male dominated to begin with.

I suggest you listen to a little girlwriteswhat & read some Warren Farrell before you start making your own mythology. Farrell has particularly interesting insights in that he is a feminist. Your “privileged” remark holds little water in the light of history.

It’s been a few years since i studied sociology in college (i dealt more with race and authors like Cornel West anyway) but, if i recall, the jist of Farrell’s ideas regarding gender was essentially that it wasn’t so much a matter than men had power over women but that they each had “roles” in society. In the context of myth and western storytelling, men are the ones that have an overwhelming hold on the hero role as analogous to what we would see in an action RPG. Women of power exist in myth, but their role is generally different. The idea that i’m “making [my] own mythology” in order to favor more men as action heroes than women is completely laughable. I doubt Farrell is going to materialize a bunch of mythologies out of thin air that prove that women hold a “hero” or “warrior” role to an equal degree as men. He’d say that women DO have power, but that power has nothing to do with video game depictions of women as heroes…at all. When it comes to giving a spotlight to video game and mythological protagonists, men are clearly in the position of privilege.

Ultimately, the game simply doesn’t need men injected into it just for the sake of them being there. It just doesn’t require them to tell a story. We don’t need affirmative action to help the imagined plight of the under-represented male action hero.

little off topic but ellen kiel=/=evon gnashblade, I believe Evon was in one living story while Kiel was in 4 I could be a bit off please correct me if I’m wrong, personally I would have preferred to see Evon win cutthroat politics and I voted for him quite a bit but that is because I related to him more 1) I main a charr 2) I’m an accountant (IRL), but this is not what the player base chose more ppl preferred Kiel, so she was elected. No big deal the player base chose between these two so I personally don’t feel they should be included in this discussion, but they are not equal as one got far more time “on-air”.

kamedin.4698:

Most of the male heroes were in the first game, now its the female’s turn.

This is absolutely wrong, but I am going to play along with this.

In Guild Wars 1, there is a balance of male and female that follow, help, and guide the PC. In Prophecies, in the male category, we got Rurik, King Jalis Ironhammer, Ghost of Turai Ossa, and arguably, Vizier Khilbron. On the female category, we got the Shining Blade Leader Evennia, Saidra, and freaken Glint, the Crystal Dragon that started the whole game with one simple Prophecy.

In Faction, there is a lot less characterization here but we got Togo, Mhenlo for the male section while the female section got Kuunavang, a wise and incredibaly old dragon that gave the power to the PC that would swiftly kill Shiro and his minions. There are tons of minor characters in both factions Kurzicks and Luxons that show both side of gender equality and power.

In Nightfall, oh boy. Thanks to the hero system and how the story plays along with them and the PC, we got some interesting character interaction of both sexes. For the male side, we got Koss, Dunkoro, Zhed Shadowhoof, THE Master of Whisper, and Joko while the female side got Kormir (aka the new human GOD), Melonni, Margrid the Sly, Tahlkora, and Kehanni.

In the Eye of the North, for the female side, we got Gwen and Captain Langmar as the head leader of the Ebon Vanguard, Jora the slayer of the first Jormag Corrupted, Livia, and Oola the golemmancer. For the male side, we have Vekk and his father Gadd, Ogden Stonehealer, and Pyre Fierceshot, the starter of the Charr Revolution.

For the War in Kryta, there are characters all over the place but you have to know that Queen Salma is one of the main important NPC in this arc.

Finally, the Wind of Change. Here we have Zei Ri that represent the male and Miku for the female.

I know I miss a lot of characters here and there but I am pointing out the main characters, Why do I list this? Well, to show that GW 1 was balanced with the sexes in their roles and how saying that its just a male only game is a wrong statement. It also show that the writers of these game, stand alone, and Beyond (aka Living story of Guild Wars 1) were not presented in the Living Story of GW 2.

My understanding that the person in charge of writing the overall story for the LS was Angel Mccoy. It comes to no surprises that she favored writing all these female “hero” npc and Scarlet and never bother writing a competent male character.

That was a very well thought out post, well done Qawsada.

If the living story predominantly falls on the shoulders of Angel McCoy then I think she needs to have less input, not because of the male/female issue but because the story itself is fairly mediocre and Scarlet is a poorly conceived villain.

Qawsada.4251:

My understanding that the person in charge of writing the overall story for the LS was Angel Mccoy. It comes to no surprises that she favored writing all these female “hero” npc and Scarlet and never bother writing a competent male character.

But every male hero type has been done too many times before. Female hero types however, they’re not used nearly as much as the males. I welcome more female types, but I do wish to see more into their overall personalities instead of what we’re currently seeing. I have a feeling we will the next update to the Tower, considering there’s a rumor going around that -redacted-

RyuDragnier.9476:

Qawsada.4251:

My understanding that the person in charge of writing the overall story for the LS was Angel Mccoy. It comes to no surprises that she favored writing all these female “hero” npc and Scarlet and never bother writing a competent male character.

But every male hero type has been done too many times before. Female hero types however, they’re not used nearly as much as the males. I welcome more female types, but I do wish to see more into their overall personalities instead of what we’re currently seeing. I have a feeling we will the next update to the Tower, considering there’s a rumor going around that -redacted-

In Guild Wars female heroes are used as much as male, read the post you just quoted for evidence of that, what other games do is irrelevant.

Also put a spoiler in that post if you believe it to be true, it is something I personally would rather not have read.

It has been redacted. Also, what other games do IS relevant, due to the mere fact that the reason people are getting on the case of those wanting more male characters is because there’s a huge difference in the male to female ratio of heroes in videogames.

Aedelric.1287:

That was a very well thought out post, well done Qawsada.

If the living story predominantly falls on the shoulders of Angel McCoy then I think she needs to have less input, not because of the male/female issue but because the story itself is fairly mediocre and Scarlet is a poorly conceived villain.

Its worse then that. Angel Mccoy is NOW in charge of Guild Wars lore. Her interview didn’t really help my liking towards her as she basically demolish any lore GW 1 has and how its insignificant because its human centric. Here is the thread about this ordeal:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview

RyuDragnier.9476:

But every male hero type has been done too many times before. Female hero types however, they’re not used nearly as much as the males. I welcome more female types, but I do wish to see more into their overall personalities instead of what we’re currently seeing. I have a feeling we will the next update to the Tower, considering there’s a rumor going around that Kasmeer dies…

The term “if its not broken, don’t fix it,” comes into mind. You already mention the poor personalities and characterization of the female characters, so I would not mention that. The problem stem that the male characters we do have in the LS is either a baffoon for a norn, a fool, an evil merchant, and Logan being a punching bag. I am all for more female characters IF they are properly written. The one we have either steal your spotlight or their personality is as dry as wall paper.

Probably because females are better to look at then males or some crap. We need a strong male lead at some point though, one who is strong and of good character. One who does not lose to like 1 or 2 enemies like most NPC’s but tis a killing machine!

Why not put Logan into kill mode or something? Get some more Troy Baker action going on.

RyuDragnier.9476:

It has been redacted. Also, what other games do IS relevant, due to the mere fact that the reason people are getting on the case of those wanting more male characters is because there’s a huge difference in the male to female ratio of heroes in videogames.

Like I mention before, GW 1 balance the role of both Genders. As for any other games, ANY Game made and written by Chris Avellone is a shining example of how to write a character of both sexes. Games like Fallout 2, New Vegas, Neverwinter 2/Mask of the Betrayal, Kotor 2 with Kreia as one of the best female character made in any video game I ever played, and Planescape: Torment.

Templar.3418:

Probably because females are better to look at then males or some crap. We need a strong male lead at some point though, one who is strong and of good character. One who does not lose to like 1 or 2 enemies like most NPC’s but tis a killing machine!

Why not put Logan into kill mode or something? Get some more Troy Baker action going on.

I want Rylock Brimstone back and kicking everyone’s butt.

Chris Avellone is an exceptionally good writer, every character he creates is unique and enjoyable regardless of gender. But that kind of story telling is another class entirely.

Rytlock is an example of a good male hero, he has a strong personality and hard not to instantly like. I wonder who wrote him and Forgal/Tybalt for that matter.

Aerlen.5326:

You don’t like men being treated the way women have been for decades in most media and video games, you don’t like the fact GW2 favors portraying women in important roles rather than men, and you think this is a issue that needs to be fixed or “balanced”?

You’re basically saying:
male dominated = bad
female dominated = good

Stop being petty and wanting “revenge” for past gender inequality.
The solution to sexism is not sexism in the other direction, it’s equality.

Mif.3471:

The solution to sexism is not sexism in the other direction, it’s equality.

Or make good characters and write good stories regardless of gender without having to meet an artificial quota of a specific demographic.

Mif.3471:

Aerlen.5326:

You don’t like men being treated the way women have been for decades in most media and video games, you don’t like the fact GW2 favors portraying women in important roles rather than men, and you think this is a issue that needs to be fixed or “balanced”?

You’re basically saying:
male dominated = bad
female dominated = good

Stop being petty and wanting “revenge” for past gender inequality.
The solution to sexism is not sexism in the other direction, it’s equality.

Funny thing about equality. In order for it to exist this debate needs to not matter. Because if there was equality no one would care. I choose to treat men and women equally, as such the quantities of men or women makes no difference to me, only the quality of them.

To me Kiel was an over reaching under qualified person and didn’t deserve what she got (from the players) compared to Gnashblade. Not because she was female but because she didn’t make sense where he did. Marjory, though, is a different story entirely and I very much enjoy her taking a central role. I don’t know anything about Kashmeer, nor where she comes from, but Faren is delightful in how foppish he is. He’s impossible to hate because he’s a buffoon, but a well meaning one.

I still subscribe to the idea that Sylvari are elves and all elves are chicks, so Trehearn, Scarlet, Caithe, it makes no difference if they’re male or female they’re Sylvari so they’re girls.

Brahaam and Roxx, Brahaam is teenager, the fact that he’s bigger than you means nothing. He’s a Norn, he’s tough, straight forward and dumb as rocks. That’s what Norn are. An unlimited number of examples to the contrary doesn’t change it. He’s also Eir’s son and as such has a huge amount that he needs to prove just to represent that. As such he doesn’t really have time to cope with situations, he needs to act in order to solidify his legend and become more than just his mother’s son. Roxx, on the other hand, is a Charr and Charr are not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. She’s also young, though, and a gladium in a society where that’s a serious stigma so she is ultimately also unsure of herself. The way they are is not so much a stereotype as it is a proper representation of who and what they should be based on their backstory.

I’m not sure I share this sentinement. I mean female leads have been pretty heavy in the living story yep but there are male characters elsewhere. Actually one of them plays key role in Zhaitan story arc. The male characters I can think of without looking up (both villains and heroes):

Tybalt Leftpaw (personal story)
Evon Gnashblade (living story)
Rytlock Brimsone (personal story … shown in living story but not very involved)
Lord Faren (living story & personal story)
Logan Thackeray (living story & personal story)
Canach (living story)
Trahernia (personal story)
Braham (living story)

Eurhetemec.9052:

What about Kasmeer and Majory? Majory certainly is competent and sexually ambiguous, but the only one who clearly is. Kasmeer just seems kind of dim – like Lord Faren as others have said – has good instincts, but not a great thinker. That’s not flawless on any level.

I never got the impression Kasmeer is dim. However she seems a bit dainty but that’s how all GW mesmers have been played. Male or female.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Funny thing about equality. In order for it to exist this debate needs to not matter. Because if there was equality no one would care. I choose to treat men and women equally, as such the quantities of men or women makes no difference to me, only the quality of them.

Actually this is often not at all true. Real life is good example. Should there be a situation where for example female is hired into a position that is normally “man’s job” they have to prove they can do the job where as the default assumption is that men can do it without much proofing. It’s not just work life but also in things like politics and games as is obvious in this thread.

Also your Sylvari comment is pretty close to certain real life ignorant comments I hear quite often. I think it demonstrates why you would have a problem with this situation where we have a lot strong female leads.

Elves have always had two genders by the way and so do Sylvari.

panzer.6034:

Lol. “Male, male, male” is what you’re telling me here. All these things must be preconceived as “male”. You’re proving my point beautifully.

So you’re saying it is factually untrue that:
men identify with men more than women
men play video games more than women
men are physically suited to war

Because that’s exactly what I said in that quote. If you can prove to me that any of these is factually untrue then I might believe I’m just arbitrarily choosing.

panzer.6034:

It’s been a few years since i studied sociology in college (i dealt more with race and authors like Cornel West anyway) but, if i recall, the jist of Farrell’s ideas regarding gender was essentially that it wasn’t so much a matter than men had power over women but that they each had “roles” in society. In the context of myth and western storytelling, men are the ones that have an overwhelming hold on the hero role as analogous to what we would see in an action RPG. Women of power exist in myth, but their role is generally different. The idea that i’m “making [my] own mythology” in order to favor more men as action heroes than women is completely laughable. I doubt Farrell is going to materialize a bunch of mythologies out of thin air that prove that women hold a “hero” or “warrior” role to an equal degree as men. He’d say that women DO have power, but that power has nothing to do with video game depictions of women as heroes…at all. When it comes to giving a spotlight to video game and mythological protagonists, men are clearly in the position of privilege.

You start by sort of explaining what Farrell said, then ignore it & jump right up to “privilege”. the main point of it is that these roles disprove privilege. As for mythology men are heroes in WAR STORIES. Not in stories of creation & birth. It’s just a connection to human physical attributes, it’s logical. You seem to say that women must be war heroes for their roles to be equal or acceptable. That war being male-centric is untrue/artificially-injected or somehow misguided.
I can’t get over how you think that having male warriors is having them “injected into it” & yet having female warriors is somehow more logical. How does that make any sense? That’s like saying I’m being unreasonable if I say “logging is male-oriented”. what?

Let me try to explain what im saying because people just loooove to jump on the “you’re a misogynist/male-only/misguided” bandwagon.

In a game about war i don’t think there is anything wrong with expecting a majority of the fighters be male. It’s logical. period. I like good female fighting characters. ie: Ripley is an effing bad——. Now, cut to GW2. They start going more & more female. Ok, that’s different. It doesn’t make logical sense for everything to just kinda go that way, but it’s kinda new. But in the light of the way the game has lots of girl-one-upping-boy stuff all over it, it stand out as just: “girl dominance good”. It’s less about this one little part & more about the whole. I liked that GW1 had both & it was just kinda there. I actually kinda liked Kormir. I felt like she was trying in the story to do what was right. but this just reeks of social/political agenda.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Bobby.3721:

Hmm… come to think of it there are quite a bit more female characters than male. Kind of annoys me, but I’m sure we will have a good male character in the future BUT NOT SOMEONE LIKE TREHERN.

Oh, no. Women are doing things. Quick, devs, make twenty men to do things. That way we have a nice, exact, 50/50, half and half, TOTALLY EQUAL ratio of men doing things to women doing things.

You have my sympathies, sir.

Im not sure im following. I’m just saying I’m sure there will be an actual good male character at some point in the future.

Northlander.4619:

I think it demonstrates why you would have a problem with this situation where we have a lot strong female leads.

Um, I’ll just throw the rest of that out because this right here… I’m arguing that no one should have a problem with this. And I say explicitly that I do not have a problem with it. So where exactly does this come from?

My point about Elves and Sylvari is that their physical gender is irrelevant, like dwarves. All dwarves are dudes and all elves are chicks, they just are, deal with it.

DarksunG.9537:

So you’re saying it is factually untrue that:
men identify with men more than women
men play video games more than women
men are physically suited to war

Because that’s exactly what I said in that quote. If you can prove to me that any of these is factually untrue then I might believe I’m just arbitrarily choosing.

The “MMOs are male oriented and so we need to have more males” argument is completely circular. It’s like arguing “we need more male doctors because being a doctor is a male oriented thing”. It’s not some immutable fact that these thing MUST be that way or even SHOULD be and in the context of a video game or work of fiction, it’s the completely mutable, arbitrary decision of whoever makes video games or fiction.

You seem to say that women must be war heroes for their roles to be equal or acceptable. That war being male-centric is untrue/artificially-injected or somehow misguided.

It’s misguided to inject a certain demographic into a story just to have more of that demographic when the quality of the writing and the characters is what needs to be addressed more than anything. It’s affirmative action when none is needed.

I can’t get over how you think that having male warriors is having them “injected into it” & yet having female warriors is somehow more logical. How does that make any sense? That’s like saying I’m being unreasonable if I say “logging is male-oriented”. what?

You can say that logging is male oriented all you like, but when a particular logging camp happens to run fine with more women than men and you feel the need to step in and add more men just for the sake of having more men… that’s misguided and missing the whole post-gender goal that we could be aiming for. Instead of letting people be people, you’re making affirmative action gender quotas and drawing gender lines where none are required.

In a game about war i don’t think there is anything wrong with expecting a majority of the fighters be male. It’s logical. period. I like good female fighting characters. ie: Ripley is an effing bad——.

And that’s fine. If the game had more male leads from the start, no one but a rabid few would have batted an eye since it would have been like a million other stories out there already. I certainly wouldn’t have said a thing.

The thing is, if the stories are good (not saying that they are) and the characters are well-written, it doesn’t matter if the characters are male or female. People are talking about gay characters in other threads i’ve been reading and it’s the exact same idea: It’s cool when different groups are included in stories but they should never be added just to meet some artificial checklist of demographics, and that includes males. At this point, if you’re adding males in just to meet some made-up quota you are “injecting” things in via affirmative action when the story is perfectly fine without such agendas.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ok, how about this. I’m unclear why this is a problem. Does that explain my position a bit better?

May I give it a bit of a go?

While I can’t say I’m outraged or raising torches about the male/female ratio in the Living Story, I have noticed a trend which is beginning to fray on my nerves. Basically, the LS consistently portrays female heroes as skilled, capable, and varied, while painting male heroes as inept, flawed, or reliant on their superior female counterparts.

The women are a diverse lot, but they all have something that makes them shine. Rox is a skilled soldier with an good sense of tactics and planning. Kiel is a capable protector with a strong moral code, but enough flexibility to be wily and adaptable. Marjory is a sly detective solving puzzles and gathering clues, despite not having a full gang riding around in a mystery machine. Kasmeer is dainty, to be sure, but she is still a fantastically powerful mesmer, as demonstrated by her recent disenchanting. Speaking of mesmers, Countess Anise is twelve steps ahead of anyone attempting to hurt the Queen, performing the job of protecting her majesty perfectly. Magister Tassi (who may not count, being a holiday character, just like Moto likely doesn’t count) is a superb historian and makes a mighty potent frosting glaze. We also have Caithe, who showed up just to get caught by a certain someone to show how big and mean the new baddie really was. And finally, of course, Scarlet is currently the god emperor of evil, at least according to the last ten months we’ve been fighting her.

Lots of women doing lots of cool things. Moving on…

Lord Faren is a walking joke. He exists to be a buffoon, get in trouble, and look foolish until we rescue him. That’s okay, because he’s lovable, like a dumb puppy who runs into walls a lot. Braham has large muscles and less brain, though he has a good heart. His character arc has consisted of running after his stolen girlfriend, getting rejected, and taking his place as Rox’s flunkie. They now roam together, and he is the brawn to her brain, relying on her superior expertise to direct his meaty self.

Subdirector Noll is a petty and unlikeable middle manager who needs Kiel to sort out a bad situation. Canach is the other side of the coin in the aforementioned southsun scenario, and while he may have had a cause to his extremism, he’s caught by Kiel and shown up by her simultaneously as she solves the contract problem without bloodshed.

Speaking of contracts, Evon Gnashblade showed up without anything remotely resembling Kiel’s screentime, ran against her in an election while twirling his evil mustache, and lost. And finally, Logan Thackery showed up for the singular purpose of being shows as completely inept as the queen’s protector and verbally slapped down by Countess Anise for not being as calm, capable, and in control as she proved to be.

While I know some of that is deliberately phrasing things in a bad light, I invite you to consider to questions. First of all, can you name a prominent male character in the Living Story who is skilled, capable, and does not get shown up by a superior female? I’m not saying every single one needs to be a strong, independent male who don’t need no gal….but still.

And secondly, if the genders were reversed, do you think the Living Story’s portrayal of women would be acceptable? If Lana Thackery was called out by Count Anthony for being so blinded by her love for the King of Kryta that she couldn’t do her job? If Caneche the guerrilla fighter rampaged around Southsun Cove proving Subcontractor Gnilie a fool, only to have the rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold Captain Kieth show up and upstage both of these two ladies with his scoundrel smile? If the large-but-dumb Brahma chased after her boyfriend only to have him dump her immediately, at which point she latched onto Rawx the soldier and followed him around obediently? And finally, if Lady Farrah was constantly preening about the story acting like a complete ditz, serving only as a joke or a damsel in distress? If these were the only representations of the entire female gender, would this be alright? Methinks not.

The statement earlier in the thread is absolutely true that the goal should be for good characters in well written stories. I would assert, however, that the current writing is doing a lackluster job depicting the male characters, concentrating far too much on making one gender look good by highlighting the other’s failures and flaws.

Honestly this isn’t an issue for me for a couple reasons..

1) Every character created from the Living Story is boring, poorly written, and incredibly unlikable (all my opinion of course.)

2) My character is a man. Every other character in the game could be a woman, it wouldn’t change anything for me as long as I get to play my male character.

3) Even though I think all the Living Story characters are boring, I pretty much find them all equally boring. Rox and Braham are equally lame, and one is female while one is male. Scarlet and Bloody Prince Thorn are both incredibly annoying, and once again, one is male while the other is female. Note that I’m only naming characters created by the Living Story. I think most of the characters from the core game are pretty well done, and they’re also relatively equal.

DarksunG.9537:

You stated this better than I did. Feminism’s extremely misunderstood history & effects aside, I thought for this whole year i was just taking things out of context or missing something. It wasn’t until I saw other people noticing it on the forums when I was like.. oh.. it is a thing.

Oh its quite real. Honestly, its more than obvious, its blatant. What’s astonishing about it, is that no stone was left unturned. Even f you skipped through every single dialogue piece involving main characters and your own you can still see/hear it at play by simply roaming through the various squares within Divinity’s Reach, and other major cities/towns/areas where large grps on npcs congregate.

I took some time recently just to roam around DR, and I noticed something startling.

At every point wherein you had two NPC’s having a seemingly casual conversation, (which involved both Male and Female NPC’s), the female always seemed to be the one in control of said convo. At minimum, always having the last word, at max, finding a why to snidely chide or belittle said male NPC for something he said.

You can sense the writers intent through and through. Clear as day.

Almost a mirror to said writers soul, conscience, and state of mind.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

There is no issue here. People are just immature and impossible to please.

There is an issue here, several pages of posts prove that.

What you meant to say is -you- have no issue here. What is immature is posting just for the sake of arguing, which is what you are doing. You obviously have no problem and no desire to validate your opinion and as such you have no real reason to post.

Shriketalon, you raise some exceptionally good arguments and prove the point this topic is trying to make very eloquently.

The A-nets game designers are mostly males and like most of the male players they like to design/play female characters. I think this is the reason we have more female heros then males. The males from A-Net enjoy making them

Ronah.2869:

The A-nets game designers are mostly males and like most of the male players they like to design/play female characters. I think this is the reason we have more female heros then males. The males from A-Net enjoy making them

Wait and see I guess. I don’t think we have enough of a big picture yet to know what exactly incite arenaNet to focus more on female character development than male one. I don’t think making hasty conclusion is the right thing to do.

We simply don’t know. Does it matter really? No. Until there is an obvious gender power symbolism behind it. I don’t think there is one just yet.

The lore has to expand a little bit more to really know what exactly is areneNet intention. i.e. The beginning of the next arc.

Male here, and I have to say, I’m not sure where this view of GW2 having weak male characters comes from. The examples often quoted are Logan, Braham and Faren (I’ll leave out Trahearne since he’s disliked more for stealing the player’s limelight than being a bad male character).

Logan is a man in love. Love makes one do some silly things, and there’s actually scientific evidence that the hormones released during love alter your behaviour. Everything that Logan does is consistent with what a man in love does. When he’s NOT dealing with matters pertaining to the Queen, he’s steadfast, forthright and competent.

Braham is a young man, not much older than a teenager in many respects. He seems a bit stubborn and headstrong, but that’s not really different to how a lot of teenage males behave. He doesn’t have the kind of life experience and wisdom that the other people he interacts with (Rox mainly, but also Eir and Knut Whitebear) have, making him seem rash and/or simple in his actions.

Faren was no doubt partially written as comedic relief, I’ll readily admit, but he’s not a buffoon. He’s well aware of when things are serious; he’s just the personality type who tries to build up his confidence (and that of others) by joking around and pretending things aren’t as bad as they seem. If ANet wanted to make the Living Story really dark, they could take it down a path where they push Faren to breaking point and leave him in a sobbing, broken mess, a shell of his former self.

panzer.6034:

The “MMOs are male oriented and so we need to have more males” argument is completely circular. It’s like arguing “we need more male doctors because being a doctor is a male oriented thing”.

No, it’s saying: Men tend to like (especially violent) games more than women. Which is a fact. it’s not a social construct, it’s not a circular anti-women statement, it’s a fact. It’s not saying “we need more male doctors because being a doctor is a male oriented thing” it’s saying: “it’s normal & logical to expect men to be loggers rather than women for physical reasons”.

panzer.6034:

It’s not some immutable fact that these thing MUST be that way or even SHOULD be and in the context of a video game or work of fiction, it’s the completely mutable, arbitrary decision of whoever makes video games or fiction.

and? We could have a game about men giving birth. In a game where Norns have an insane amount of dimorphism, none of what you said holds up. they are obviously conscious of the differences between males & females. Especially when you listen to the idle npc chatter.

panzer.6034:

You seem to say that women must be war heroes for their roles to be equal or acceptable. That war being male-centric is untrue/artificially-injected or somehow misguided.

It’s misguided to inject a certain demographic into a story just to have more of that demographic when the quality of the writing and the characters is what needs to be addressed more than anything. It’s affirmative action when none is needed.

So would you agree it’s misguided to make a fighting force half women when men are far stronger, faster, have more endurance, are physiologically wired for it & killing off the women means the end of the species? How is that not equally artificial? See, the problem here is you are picking one side over the other as “artificially-injected” without a logical reason. That’s the only reason I have an issue with it.

panzer.6034:

At this point, if you’re adding males in just to meet some made-up quota you are “injecting” things in via affirmative action when the story is perfectly fine without such agendas.

Sorry, but the only “quota” I see is injecting females so that we can be PC. There are far more female characters fitting your grievance than male. I’m baffled you can say type that & be serious. You think MEN are artificially injected into these kinda of stories? I’d like to see the logic behind that.

GW1 did it fine. Devona was cool, Margrid was cool. I even had respect for Kormir, i liked her. & all this was in a context of having a completely unrealistic number of women fighting. If that many women died, the human race would end. But now, as Tydarius said, it’s so obvious that a writer had a vendetta I can’t believe you are defending it. You turn a blind eye to all the “women gotta one-up the men” in the game. Then you accuse people of being face-palm-worthy because they find it logical that men would fight more than women (for physical reasons not social ones) & that males identify more with males.

Northlander.4619:

Tybalt Leftpaw (personal story)
Evon Gnashblade (living story)
Rytlock Brimsone (personal story … shown in living story but not very involved)
Lord Faren (living story & personal story)
Logan Thackeray (living story & personal story)
Canach (living story)
Trahernia (personal story)
Braham (living story)

ok lets look at that cast of male “heroes” shall we, none of which are currently used. You forgot Forgal btw which was another male character who I liked.

Tybalt Leftpaw – great character, probably one of the most liked in the game – KILLED OFF
Forgal – another good NPC with strenght of character – killed off R.I.P
Evon Gnashblade – bit part of a election. nothing of value
Rytlock Brimsone – another good character, never fully used after the PS
Lord Faren – comic relief
Logan Thackeray – love sick puppy, still struggling with his magical bond with jennah and his loyalty to the group. Used as a disappointing catalyst for rytlock’s complaints.
Canach – incompetent Villain in which Kiel takes the glory for freeing the workers.
Trahernia – most disliked character in GW2, glory stealing vegetable.
Braham – dimwitted oaf.

so yeah – great representation of male “heroes” so far.

I find it completely absurd that people still haven’t grasped what we are asking for here, or better still, why it matters.

So what if they put in some leading males heroes into the game that aren’t idiots… its not hurting anyone, why make it a big deal that we shouldn’t have them?

I just want a character that I like. Tybalt or Forgal for example. So what if I identify with those types of character more than we currently have. It should be an equal mix. why can’t we have that??

DarksunG.9537:

So would you agree it’s misguided to make a fighting force half women when men are far stronger, faster, have more endurance, are physiologically wired for it & killing off the women means the end of the species?

Which fantasy realm are you referring to by the above statement? Men are perhaps on average stronger and faster than women (endurance is debatable – look at a sport like free climbing that requires extreme amounts of endurance and notice that possibly the best climber of all time is a woman, Lynn Hill) but that doesn’t make all men categorically stronger and faster than any woman. Also, this is rather irrelevant, because otherwise fighters would be chosen based on those qualities, and they aren’t.

There are any number of animals on this planet that are stronger and faster than a human. Heck, even an untrained chimp could decisively beat a human athlete one-on-one. Those are not the qualities that make humans so formidable opponents. Instead, human dominance is based on intelligence, on the use of tools to augment one’s capabilities, and the ability to plan, communicate and cooperate to accomplish a task. On all these crucial abilities, men and women are created equal. A rifle operated by a woman is just as deadly as one operated by a man, strength doesn’t even enter the equation.

The only reason most fighters (especially in standing armies) are men is that, from a societal point of view, men are expendable in a way women aren’t. Losing half of the male population doesn’t change the procreative potential of the society (though there will be other costs incurred), but any number of lost women directly decreases the potential. This suggests that it is beneficial to the society to only choose men as fighters if the situation allows for it. In a desperate situation where a society must fight for its very existence, it does not have the luxury of keeping half of its population away from a task of existential importance. If you study history you’ll find out that in such situations women will fight just like men do.

The Tyrian races are facing an existential threat, and thus it is only natural to find equal numbers of male and female soldiers.

Thobek.1730:

I find it completely absurd that people still haven’t grasped what we are asking for here, or better still, why it matters.

So what if they put in some leading males heroes into the game that aren’t idiots… its not hurting anyone, why make it a big deal that we shouldn’t have them?

I just want a character that I like. Tybalt or Forgal for example. So what if I identify with those types of character more than we currently have. It should be an equal mix. why can’t we have that??

That is exactly what I have been trying to say Thobek, good to have people with sense here.

tmakinen.1048:

A rifle operated by a woman is just as deadly as one operated by a man, strength doesn’t even enter the equation.

There’s a lot to which I could argue with regarding your post, however, this part I find the most, well, for lack of a better term, entertaining. Certainly, pulling a trigger is not difficult, and can be performed by anyone regardless of physical prowess, however…

Without going into specific detail, (since I do not want to derail this topic), let me just go ahead and dispute the latter part of that statement. Believe me, physical strength has a lot to do with military tactics/training/performance., and War.

What, you think soldiers just line up in opposing trenches, and shoot at each other till they run out of bullets, then simply go home? Never crossing that imaginary line that separates the two, therefore, never engaging in Hand to Hand combat?

Perhaps, you should do some more research yourself on military training/tactics, before making such refutably naive claims.

tmakinen.1048:

Which fantasy realm are you referring to by the above statement? Men are perhaps on average stronger and faster than women (endurance is debatable – look at a sport like free climbing that requires extreme amounts of endurance and notice that possibly the best climber of all time is a woman, Lynn Hill) but that doesn’t make all men categorically stronger and faster than any woman.

This is meaningless since you can pick any attribute & say it’s not categorically more or less anything. But all things being equal, the dimorphic difference is there & always has been. Also, even in endurance men statistically have more. The gap is smaller than strength, but it’s still there.

tmakinen.1048:

Also, this is rather irrelevant, because otherwise fighters would be chosen based on those qualities, and they aren’t.

Um, they are. They have been. if you get a 4F, it doesn’t matter how smart you are, you aren’t gonna last in real combat. it’s hardly irrelevant. You may have generals & leaders that don’t need to get into direct combat, but even how men’s brains are wired makes them better suited to extended violent behavior & war. You can look into it if you don’t believe me, but men are just more suited to fighting physically & mentally. I know it’s popular to look at the past & say “oh look how dumb everyone was” but we did what worked best, & that wasn’t only because men are disposable, although that’s what ensured that all men had to fight.

tmakinen.1048:

TThose are not the qualities that make humans so formidable opponents. Instead, human dominance is based on intelligence, on the use of tools to augment one’s capabilities, and the ability to plan, communicate and cooperate to accomplish a task. On all these crucial abilities, men and women are created equal. A rifle operated by a woman is just as deadly as one operated by a man, strength doesn’t even enter the equation.

What you just said proved my point. Having two people that can essentially think the same, when one of them is faster, stronger, has more endurance & can detach themselves from emotion more easily: that one is more likely to win. saying that has nothing to do with social engineering, it’s the result of scientific observation. Again, look at top mens & womens strength & speed records. It’s not even close. Read about men’s emotional wiring as regards to violence & enduring warfare. It’s why a female serial murdered is harder to believe/accept than a male. it just don’t happen. Why is it biased/wrong to say something that is factually true, I don’t get it.

All this i’m saying isn’t about “I want all male characters durrr!” it’s about “the expectation of more male warriors is normal & justifiable”. That is the statement that you seem intent on saying is false.
Then que Anet’s questionable girl-one-ups-man dialog & stories & you get the whole story of why things stick out in this game. They can make what they want, but lets call a spade a spade. One or more of the writers clearly don’t think much of men.

Shriketalon.1937:

Basically, the LS consistently portrays female heroes as skilled, capable, and varied, while painting male heroes as inept, flawed, or reliant on their superior female counterparts.

[…] (had to shorten because of maximum posting length)

While I know some of that is deliberately phrasing things in a bad light, I invite you to consider to questions. First of all, can you name a prominent male character in the Living Story who is skilled, capable, and does not get shown up by a superior female? I’m not saying every single one needs to be a strong, independent male who don’t need no gal….but still.

And secondly, if the genders were reversed, do you think the Living Story’s portrayal of women would be acceptable? If Lana Thackery was called out by Count Anthony for being so blinded by her love for the King of Kryta that she couldn’t do her job? If Caneche the guerrilla fighter rampaged around Southsun Cove proving Subcontractor Gnilie a fool, only to have the rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold Captain Kieth show up and upstage both of these two ladies with his scoundrel smile? If the large-but-dumb Brahma chased after her boyfriend only to have him dump her immediately, at which point she latched onto Rawx the soldier and followed him around obediently? And finally, if Lady Farrah was constantly preening about the story acting like a complete ditz, serving only as a joke or a damsel in distress? If these were the only representations of the entire female gender, would this be alright? Methinks not.

The statement earlier in the thread is absolutely true that the goal should be for good characters in well written stories. I would assert, however, that the current writing is doing a lackluster job depicting the male characters, concentrating far too much on making one gender look good by highlighting the other’s failures and flaws.

I see your point, and appreciate the entertaining style you chose to illustrate it.

I would like to point out though that while I agree that there is a slight imbalance at current, the situation is not nearly as black and white as some people in this thread paint it.

Examples:
Rox is competent and passionate, but she is also deeply insecure, superstitious and her main motivation is to please Rytlock Brimstone. I’m sure that male Rawx would be criticized by players in the same way that Logan is right now.
Inspector Kiel was criticized for being bland and somewhat of a bully, and Inspector Keith would have likely been criticized for being a one-dimensional, cardboard-cutout male “police type” character.

People perceive even these characters very differently, and it somwhat depends on your choice of words whether or not they fit into gender stereotype “boxes” or not, and whether they’re “positive” or “negative”.

But two additional questions come to mind when we play the gender-reversal game:

• How would the community have reacted to a male Marjory and Kasmeer gay couple?
• How would the community have reacted to a femal Lady Farrah (Lord Faren) in Scarlett’s cauldron in her underwear?

I’m not making a point here, just pondering the subject.

Bobby.3721:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Bobby.3721:

Hmm… come to think of it there are quite a bit more female characters than male. Kind of annoys me, but I’m sure we will have a good male character in the future BUT NOT SOMEONE LIKE TREHERN.

Oh, no. Women are doing things. Quick, devs, make twenty men to do things. That way we have a nice, exact, 50/50, half and half, TOTALLY EQUAL ratio of men doing things to women doing things.

You have my sympathies, sir.

Im not sure im following. I’m just saying I’m sure there will be an actual good male character at some point in the future.

I misunderstood you, my apologies. I took the ‘annoyed’ part for the “I’M OPPRESSED AND OUTRAGED AT THIS TRAVESTY” reaction and responded with due sarcasm.

Forget what I said, my bad.

DarksunG.9537:

What you just said proved my point. Having two people that can essentially think the same, when one of them is faster, stronger, has more endurance & can detach themselves from emotion more easily: that one is more likely to win. saying that has nothing to do with social engineering, it’s the result of scientific observation. Again, look at top mens & womens strength & speed records. It’s not even close. Read about men’s emotional wiring as regards to violence & enduring warfare. It’s why a female serial murdered is harder to believe/accept than a male. it just don’t happen. Why is it biased/wrong to say something that is factually true, I don’t get it.

All this i’m saying isn’t about “I want all male characters durrr!” it’s about “the expectation of more male warriors is normal & justifiable”. That is the statement that you seem intent on saying is false.
Then que Anet’s questionable girl-one-ups-man dialog & stories & you get the whole story of why things stick out in this game. They can make what they want, but lets call a spade a spade. One or more of the writers clearly don’t think much of men.

Why do you think that applies to Charr, Norns, Asura, or Sylvari? Explanation in detail please. Sylvari aren’t even animals in the normal sense, let alone mammals, and you think this applies to them? Norns have drastically different physiology to humans. Charr too. Asura probably aren’t mammals. So claiming “scientific” is utterly wrong.

This is a FANTASY GAME. Not “Olympics Simulator 2013”. Even the humans, are they ACTUALLY humans? We don’t know. They’re taller and better looking than humans in our world tend to be.

How does magic factor into this? It could make physiological differences meaningless. Everyone in GW2 uses magic – including Warriors – this has been stated by the devs.

Science about Earth is IRRELEVANT. You’re also wrong – there have been a number of female serial killers in reality, including a couple of violent ones.

The whole “oh the writers hate men!” deal is really insulting to ArenaNet staff, disrespectful, and generally non-rational. By that logic, the writers of Supernatural, say, “hate men”. Yet obviously they do not.

Indeed, the whole demand for male characters seems to be completely irrational, and based on ridiculous perceptions that men are being “persecuted” (you cannot deny this – you specifically allege it with “don’t think much of men”). As a man, I don’t feel remotely oppressed or persecuted by ArenaNet. Not in the least. I’m very sad to see other men claiming that they do – because it is not true. The female characters in this game are flawed and frequently flakey, just like the men.

If anything, the game has too many flakey characters of both genders in it, and too few sensible people – Majory is hardly some shocking genius, but sticks out because she is sensible and rational, in a game where most characters aren’t (Trahearne, for all the hate, is also sensible and always rational, I note).

@OP I would say “welcome to our world” if I thought that the problem actually existed. But according to my calculations, it does not.

Honestly, the reverse of what this problem is claimed to be is what has occurred in many videogames past. To me, it is a very welcome change of pace to even out the genders.

However, it honestly is not a problem.

Destiny’s Edge: 3/5 women. It is an odd number. It is as close to even as you can get with the tie breaker being female. Yes, Logan and Rytlock are squabbling idiots, but it doesn’t mean they’re worthless. They are part of that team.

Personal Story:
2/3 of the Orders people you work with: male
Trahearne: Male

Regarding Personal Story and Destiny’s Edge (since they are tied together a bit): exactly even. There is no gender disparity.

Living World:
I am *not going to consider the men of the holidays (which, I could argue are dominated by men, and why isn’t our “Santa” female? Or the Mad King a queen? Or the Bloody Prince, a Bloody Princess? Or Moto, a female?). Or the women of the holidays: Queen Jennah and Countess Anise. Tassi
**I am also not considering villains

Ellen Kiel: F
Levvi: F
Magnus the Bloody Handed: M
Braham and Rox: Even
Lady Kasmeer Meade, Lord Faren: Even
Marjory Delaqua: F
Evon Gnashblade: M
Emissary Vorpp: M

Calculation: exactly even. There is zero problem. I like Braham’s character and Lord Faren’s. And who isn’t cooler than Magnus the Bloody Handed? Maybe the ladies get a little more time in the spotlight, but that is all you can argue (well, Trahearne gets a lot of spotlight in your story and the holiday males get a ton of spotlight). There is the same number of women as there are men. And that is not counting holidays. If you want to count holidays, that tips it in men’s favor. Evon Gnashblade and Vorpp are both cool characters.

So… I could ask you, why aren’t there more women? If you include holidays in there (and count the Bloody Prince), and they are part of the Living World, then we need 1 more woman character to even it out. But that is stretching it, isn’kitten But what is stretching it more is asking for more men.

Hmm… the main bad guys have also been Canach and Scarlet (evenly split gender-wise!) So they even evenly split villains.

Basically, no offense to the OP and anyone else who agrees with him, but if you have a problem with the lady characters, then you have a problem with equality.

Great job, ArenaNet! I am amazed at how even you are with the genders o.O. Totally, completely evenly split between men and women.

Edit: Thanks Pixelpumpkin! Added Tassi to the holidays list. Then that means, not counting the Bloody Prince, we are 100% completely, totally even.

Lorelei.7809:

So… might I ask you, why aren’t there more women? If you include holidays in there, and they are part of the Living World, then we need at least 1 more woman character to even it out (not sure whether or not to count Bloody Prince to make it 4 men).

Then we’ll have to add Tassi to the list; a side character since Halloween 2012 (!), played a central part in the story instance of Dragon Bash, inventor of the Tassi box, and the one who put the Bloody Prince back to rest.

Let’s not forget about Tassi.

She kicks kitten.

:)

Okay, so while I was looking up Tassi on the wiki, I found this page, which lists all characters that were introduced by the living story.

Of course it doesn’t say anything about HOW male and female characters are represented, or how large their part was. But anyway -

Male living story characters: 18
Female living story characters: 12

However, the list includes Logan, Rytlock and Eir, but not Jennah or Anise, so it’s really more like 16:11.
If Horrik is in the list, then why not other dungeon bosses? Also, Subdirector Noll, Hobo-Tron (and possibly others) are missing, so I’m beginning to think that the list isn’t very good.

Anyway, one thing the list does show is that Asura are in no way underrepresented in the living story. Norn, on the other hand, are.

I’m surprised there hasn’t been a dev comment yet. My problem with equality in the living story; more Asura! And no, not an equal amount, Everyone should be an Asura

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m surprised there hasn’t been a dev comment yet. My problem with equality in the living story; more Asura! And no, not an equal amount, Everyone should be an Asura

Asura master race. Enslave the stupid bookahs.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m surprised there hasn’t been a dev comment yet. My problem with equality in the living story; more Asura! And no, not an equal amount, Everyone should be an Asura

Asura master race. Enslave the stupid bookahs.

Too true.

Shriketalon.1937:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ok, how about this. I’m unclear why this is a problem. Does that explain my position a bit better?

May I give it a bit of a go?

While I can’t say I’m outraged or raising torches about the male/female ratio in the Living Story, I have noticed a trend which is beginning to fray on my nerves. Basically, the LS consistently portrays female heroes as skilled, capable, and varied, while painting male heroes as inept, flawed, or reliant on their superior female counterparts.

What I took out of this was that decenters are sensationalizing female characters while failing to see the good qualities of the male characters.

The women are a diverse lot, but they all have something that makes them shine. Rox is a skilled soldier with an good sense of tactics and planning. Kiel is a capable protector with a strong moral code, but enough flexibility to be wily and adaptable. Marjory is a sly detective solving puzzles and gathering clues, despite not having a full gang riding around in a mystery machine. Kasmeer is dainty, to be sure, but she is still a fantastically powerful mesmer, as demonstrated by her recent disenchanting. Speaking of mesmers, Countess Anise is twelve steps ahead of anyone attempting to hurt the Queen, performing the job of protecting her majesty perfectly. Magister Tassi (who may not count, being a holiday character, just like Moto likely doesn’t count) is a superb historian and makes a mighty potent frosting glaze. We also have Caithe, who showed up just to get caught by a certain someone to show how big and mean the new baddie really was. And finally, of course, Scarlet is currently the god emperor of evil, at least according to the last ten months we’ve been fighting her.

Rox is a Charr, being a soldier is practically the definition of being a Charr. She is also lonely, naïve and unsure of herself. That is why she is trying so hard to win Rytlock’s approval, she is a gladium and he is one of the most celebrated Charr of her age, plus he’s a Tribune. That is also why she accepts the affections of her devourer companion.

Keil is a kid playing at soldier, which is worse considering she is an adult. She’s a nobody who happened to be in the right places at the right times, but only really go by on the skin of her teeth and thanks to the intervention of the player character. She seems to be pure of intention, but that only goes so far.

Majory is a late 50s detective novel detective, so all those things simply exist by virtue of the role she’s in. She’s also emotionally distant and has no friends to ride in a van with her. Kasmeer is more of a hanger-on than a friend, at least that’s how it seems to me from Marjory’s point of view.

Kasmeer is a ditz, there isn’t much more to say about that. The only reason Kasmeer isn’t Harley Quinn is because Majory isn’t an evil sadistic psychopath.

Countess Anise is a the leader of the Shining Blade, so that’s her job in a nutshell. She is also an interesting character but not one anyone can actually get close to. The same situation that makes her capable separates her from all meaningful social interaction.

Magister Tassi is no more capable and special than any other Magister of Priory, of which the player character can become.

Caithe is one of the most broken female characters in the entire game. I would put her after Eir, who blames herself for Snaff’s death and the fall of Destiny’s Edge, but Eir comes to grips with that while Caithe never really gets over Faolain.

Scarlet is ridiculously powerful, but also annoying, obnoxious and generally hated for being who she is, not what she represents. It’s not really a representation of capability and power when she comes equipped with dais ex machina for any situation. Also I would say that if she had been male he would have been entirely too cliché.

Lord Faren is a walking joke. He exists to be a buffoon, get in trouble, and look foolish until we rescue him. That’s okay, because he’s lovable, like a dumb puppy who runs into walls a lot. Braham has large muscles and less brain, though he has a good heart. His character arc has consisted of running after his stolen girlfriend, getting rejected, and taking his place as Rox’s flunkie. They now roam together, and he is the brawn to her brain, relying on her superior expertise to direct his meaty self.

Subdirector Noll is a petty and unlikeable middle manager who needs Kiel to sort out a bad situation. Canach is the other side of the coin in the aforementioned southsun scenario, and while he may have had a cause to his extremism, he’s caught by Kiel and shown up by her simultaneously as she solves the contract problem without bloodshed.

Speaking of contracts, Evon Gnashblade showed up without anything remotely resembling Kiel’s screentime, ran against her in an election while twirling his evil mustache, and lost. And finally, Logan Thackery showed up for the singular purpose of being shows as completely inept as the queen’s protector and verbally slapped down by Countess Anise for not being as calm, capable, and in control as she proved to be.

While I know some of that is deliberately phrasing things in a bad light, I invite you to consider to questions. First of all, can you name a prominent male character in the Living Story who is skilled, capable, and does not get shown up by a superior female? I’m not saying every single one needs to be a strong, independent male who don’t need no gal….but still.

Faren is supposed to be a doof. But he’s also a very skilled swordsman and always has the most pure intention… except with the ladies.

Braham is a strong, capable Norn who is not shown up by his oft present companion Roxx. They are friends and they work together. They provide witty banter amongst themselves and don’t overshadow either. He is not her sidekick. Is he dumb? Yeah, of course he is, he’s a Norn. But he’s also a good woodman and knows how to get things done, he just prefers to get things done by hitting them until they stop moving, again, he’s a Norn. They do not roam together, they both have their own separate lives and happen to come together from time to time because events permit it.

Subdirector Noll is a manager, that’s where that one should have ended. He’s not an adventurer, a soldier, nor a guard. His job is to make the refugees fulfill their contracts, not to track down weird happenings on a dangerous island. It’s Keil’s job to do what Keil did for him and it’s his job to also make sure she does it, because he’s a manager, his job is to manage.

Canach is probably the most capable male character in the entire game. He manages to evade the combined interests of however many organizations were after him for half a year. Then when he is finally discovered it’s back on the same island that started it all, and while Keil gets the collar for him she didn’t have anything to do with his capture and we all know that. But it doesn’t matter, even after being captured his plans were already too far gone to be stopped. His plan may have been misguided but he managed to win even after losing.

Evon Gnashblade, for his brief time was an amazing character. He was effectively set up to fail, yes, but it was still the players that chose against him, not ANet. It would have been nice for him to have gotten some screen time so we could get to know him better before he was pitted against her, then we would have actually been able to see what the people wanted. Regardless he wasn’t shown up, he simply didn’t get the popular vote.

Logan’s issues are a long standing thing and Anise was completely right to do what she did. It isn’t Logan’s job to protect the Queen and he should know that, she’s told him as much before. It’s the very reason that Desinty’s Edge failed. The Shining Blade protects the queen, Countess Anise leads the Shining Blade, it’s her job. The Seraph are soldiers, it’s there job to protect the people, he needed that slap in the face to realize that.

So the answer to the question is, from what I’m seeing, none of them have really been shown up by a more superior female. Logan is the only one who really got shown up, and that’s only because he was not kept in the loop.

Girl Power all the way!!!!!! I am all for this <3

Thobek.1730:

I find it completely absurd that people still haven’t grasped what we are asking for here, or better still, why it matters.

So what if they put in some leading males heroes into the game that aren’t idiots… its not hurting anyone, why make it a big deal that we shouldn’t have them?

I just want a character that I like. Tybalt or Forgal for example. So what if I identify with those types of character more than we currently have. It should be an equal mix. why can’t we have that??

No no, I’m pretty sure you’re not understanding the counter arguments. The leading male heroes are not idiots. Even if they were, who exactly is it hurting? If putting them in wouldn’t hurt anyone, then that implies that not putting them in does? Is that right? Who is getting hurt by the state of the game at this moment, even if the assertion that capable female characters out weight capable male characters?

How about instead of complaining and demanding nonsense from the story you just let ANet write their game the way they want to. If you can’t find a character to relate to, too bad.

DarksunG.9537:

“it’s normal & logical to expect men to be loggers rather than women for physical reasons”.

Which completely ignores the fact that if a specific logging camp works fine with more women, it doesn’t need someone bringing men in just because they’re men. It’s pointless affirmative action. There is no need to force things to conform to our expectations in a fictional tale when it can already operate fine without them.

So would you agree it’s misguided to make a fighting force half women when men are far stronger, faster, have more endurance, are physiologically wired for it & killing off the women means the end of the species? How is that not equally artificial? See, the problem here is you are picking one side over the other as “artificially-injected” without a logical reason. That’s the only reason I have an issue with it.

What game are you playing where this is remotely relevant? In GW2, a 2 foot tall asura hits just as hard as a 10 foot tall, 800 lb norn. Any race and gender can make a competent warrior in this magic fantasy land. You can buy that, but then having more women warriors is beyond that pale? The reason injecting more males into the story at this point is artificial, within the context of this thread, is that people want them just because they’re male, not because more people of a specific gender are actually needed to tell a fantasy MMO story.

You think MEN are artificially injected into these kinda of stories? I’d like to see the logic behind that.

It’s not a matter of “these kind of stories” since these kind of stories almost always have male heroes. It’s a matter of a specific game that already has a set of protagonists and a plot line. If you post in a thread demanding more males (or more gays or more black people or whatever demographic), you’re trying to inject something into this specific story for the sake of meeting an artificial quota that didn’t previously exist, when forced affirmative action isn’t required for interesting stories or characters in the first place. If some good characters are male, that’s great, but we don’t need a special agenda to represent specific genders.

It would be like having an office full of women that runs fine and having you come along and say “we need to have more men in this office” and when i tell you that it’s not necessary you come back with “why do you have a problem with men in offices” as a general statement. It’s a non sequitur.

completely unrealistic

Good thing that this isn’t a concern in fantasy fiction or this game wouldn’t have magic or dragons or asuras or golems or a million other things that are far more unrealistic than women being heroes in a disproportionate amount. If you’re suspension of disbelief is stretched thin by having more female protagonists then men, then i’m not sure how you put up with 99% of this game.

use your mind not magic go with charr