Guild Wars 2

I just logged into the game and saw a mail from a grey market gold seller. This is nothing new. These mails are rare but sometimes they find their way to me. I reported the mail and was about to delete it until I took a look at its contents.

It was otherwise a normal gold seller mail, except for this part:

We are sole agent for the best equipment in the game

Then it goes on to list all the precursors.

While this certainly isn’t proof of anything, just alarming, it’s easy to ask some questions. It seems like a logical conclusion that they are atleast trying to control the market and drive up the prices to create more demand for their services (selling gold and possibly precursors). Isn’t this tactic of theirs something similar that drug pushers use? Is Anet really still denying that the precursor prices aren’t manipulated by a group of people like this? I’d add more questions, but I’m sure my fellow players will help me out.

(My backstory is that, while I’m not going for a legendary as I think they all look rather bad, I’m trying to help my guildmate to get his shortbow. We have a small group of players, who were gathering cash for him to buy the precursor from TP, but after the price steadily rising every month, we gave up on it and are now just hoping for a drop as it seems a bit pointless to throw away over 500 gold for it.)

Because goldspam mail should be taken at face value, right?

Gold sellers can’t farm, so they’ll control the TP.

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

Careful with the humour

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

I lol’d
Wonder how many will take this seriously?

so instead of adding propper anticheat/bot protection
adding scavenegerhunt fixing bugs and so on you rather make sarcastic comments in such a thread

You assume that it’s “instead of” and not “in addition to.” Remember, “both” is almost always an option. Are there things I’d like to see changed? Yes, but I’m not going to begrudge an employee his sarcasm.

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

It’s also evidence that crafting legendaries probably should not have been based on highly specific items which are very rare (relative to demand) random drops. It’s not exactly like they would be super-easy to make without that factor added in. I know the topic has been discussed to death and changes are incoming at some unknown point in the future. In light of how “bling” gear was obtained in Guild Wars 1 (like Tormented weapons, for example), I still don’t really understand what the thought process was behind how precursors are currently obtained.

oruma.4092:

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

so instead of adding propper anticheat/bot protection

adding scavenegerhunt fixing bugs and so on you rather make sarcastic comments in such a thread

maybe check some goldsellsites out they sell legendaries for good hard dollar/ euro and pretty sure they got enough customers

seems as long you guys make enough money of gembuyers you dont give a chicken how the playerbase feels

now fanboys go on or some mod delete close this

love this game but dont like the communication/ attitude of anet employees

I’m sure they have plenty of constantly evolving anti-bot protection. You can never really win the war against botters, though. They will always come up with new methods, as long as there is money to be made there. All they can do is ban them as they come up and try to get people to engage in better account security practices.

As for why people are allowed to teleport all over the place (which I assume must abuse some rather liberal latency correction code) without being flagged and reviewed immediately, that I don’t know, although I actually have not seen much of that lately, so maybe they are now.

Signet of Forums.4397:

oruma.4092:

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

so instead of adding propper anticheat/bot protection

adding scavenegerhunt fixing bugs and so on you rather make sarcastic comments in such a thread

maybe check some goldsellsites out they sell legendaries for good hard dollar/ euro and pretty sure they got enough customers

seems as long you guys make enough money of gembuyers you dont give a chicken how the playerbase feels

now fanboys go on or some mod delete close this

love this game but dont like the communication/ attitude of anet employees

I’m sure they have plenty of constantly evolving anti-bot protection. You can never really win the war against botters, though. They will always come up with new methods, as long as there is money to be made there. All they can do is ban them as they come up and try to get people to engage in better account security practices.

As for why people are allowed to teleport all over the place (which I assume must abuse some rather liberal latency correction code) without being flagged and reviewed immediately, that I don’t know, although I actually have not seen much of that lately, so maybe they are now.

gonna reply here one more time was just annoyed of this total useless comment of john smith

this game had zero anticheatsoftware at start and the money which got earned by exploits cheats never got removed or rollbacked of the game

so guess what these botguys do with tons of money…..

had own my experience with anet handling bot issues ( 1 week to close an hacked acc of an friend) so thats my view and my personal opinion

but sadly if u actual play the game without your rosa glasses u should know by now, that the situation is far from being remotley handled. besides adding crappy dr which affects normal players not the bots with multiaccs

John Smith.4610:

That comment wasn’t sarcastic. This thread is evidence of why they put precursors in their mail, because it makes you think about it. That’s how marketing works.

or, in other words, you are now advertising for the gold sellers.

The person who started this thread is advertising for the goldseller, inadvertently or not.

It’s a lot like reporting on terrorists: its what they want. Exposure and presence in the daily dialogue is the point.

To me the psychology is pretty obvious… Those who would buy a precurssor under any circumstances, be it from the trading post or a gold seller are motivated by fear. They are AFRAID of the odds of getting one to drop in high level play or of creating one through thet Mystic Forge. When you have a target audience you know is afraid, how to you motivate them: you scare the kitten out of them. Claiming sole control of the supply is ABSURD, but it’s just so insideously plausible to people living in fear…

I don’t know, pretty sure I’ve seen those kind of infomercials for quite a while.
Maybe it’s because I don’t take them serious in the first place. They could offer me 5 million gold and all legendary weapons in a bundle for $1 – not biting.

John Smith.4610:

That comment wasn’t sarcastic. This thread is evidence of why they put precursors in their mail, because it makes you think about it. That’s how marketing works.

You seem to paint a picture that somehow all marketing is false or exaggerated. I’m pretty sure not all gold sellers are scammers. Otherwise they would’ve stay afloat for too long. Therefore I think my concern about them controlling atleast a part of the precursor market is legit.

Also, I doubt that this gold selling company’s idea was to highlight your (= Anet’s) shortcomings when it comes to economy and especially precursors, but that’s exactly what I thought when I saw the mail in my inbox.

Nike.2631:

The person who started this thread is advertising for the goldseller, inadvertently or not.

I knew exactly what I was getting into, when I started this topic. Don’t you worry

As for the psychology that you mentioned, I think your analogy is far off. Fear has very little to do with it. But I can only talk about my own and my guild’s situation. The whole precursor business and its problematic nature has more to do with having reachable goals in the game.

Daeron.3608:

John Smith.4610:

That comment wasn’t sarcastic. This thread is evidence of why they put precursors in their mail, because it makes you think about it. That’s how marketing works.

You seem to paint a picture that somehow all marketing is false or exaggerated. I’m pretty sure not all gold sellers are scammers. Otherwise they would’ve stay afloat for too long. Therefore I think my concern about them controlling atleast a part of the precursor market is legit.

You aren’t seriouly trying to string those statements into a logical argument, are you?

Its not a claim that all marketing is false, its an observation that this marketing has been successful – wether its true or not, it got under your skin and into your head.

He never once said Goldsellers are scammers. Obviously ones that are successful over time deliver on their transactions.

NEITHER of those things lend any credibility to the claim of sole control of the precurrsor market. With an added logic check of if a gold seller is offering a precursor, its not on the TP, and thus doesn’t impact the legitimate market whatsoever. And then there’s this strange detail that keeps ppping up… the guy you’re arguing with can essentially press a button and see where every precurrsor in the game is at and note every single time one changes hands without any obvious in-game finacial transaction. I THINK he might have some factual basis for his statments about how “controled” precursors are. Maybe.

Also, I doubt that this gold selling company’s idea was to highlight your shortcomings when it comes to economy and especially precursors, but that’s exactly what I thought when I saw the mail in my inbox.

Agent Smith’s ‘short commings’ being what? That you don’t have a precurrsor? Get over yourself.

Daeron.3608:

As for the psychology that you mentioned, I think your analogy is far off. Fear has very little to do with it.

Fear has everything to do with it. The prices on the TP have long since surpassed the point where people should be thumbing their noses at precurrsor sellers of all sorts and just settle in to making their own attempts to craft one. Paying for certainty is paying to avoid risk, and when you are willing to pay, you are more afraid of the risk than the cost.

I think you are fearful that my concerns might be correct Why else take such a tone of voice about all this? Like I was personally attacking you, when I was actually quoting Mr. Smith and saying my opinion on the matter and his posts. Fear indeed is a powerful weapon, my son.

Funny that you do exactly the same what you accuse me of doing. After all, I never did mention anything about a sole controller. I just voiced my concern and used that gold seller mail as a starting point for what I hoped to be a proper dialogue, but I guess it was too much to ask without resorting to personal stabs such as “get over yourself.”

As for the magic button that Mr. Smith supposedly has. Isn’t it rather easy to him to come here and say “there’s no group controlling the prices of precursors, you can move along now?” That would do a lot of good to everyone concerned and make my topic completely pointless. After all, all I got is “evidence” found from numerous similar topics here plus a ton of gold seller sites listing those precursors for hard cash. I doubt that they’d do that if they didn’t have their hands on them.

@ Daeron

I’d like to point that you’re the one who’s trying to make a point “gold sellers manipulate precursor prices.” You word it like you’re just asking for the heck of it, but your actions and accusations makes it pretty clear what your thoughts on this subject are.

Until you present evidence and argument to back your stance up, there isn’t going to any “proper dialogue.” And no, gold sellers claiming they control precursors doesn’t constitute as good evidence.

Gold sellers want repeat business just like any company. They are not lying about the ability to provide you with a precursor. Obviously they bought some and I wouldn’t be surprised if they did control the market.

@Ursan
Actually I have no clue whether what I asked is true or not, it was a real question, not a statement, but for the sake of argument it was my place to pose the question like I did. It also explains my annoyance, for a lack of a better word, with Mr. Smith and Nike who decided just to shrug it off. After all, even if I’m totally wrong, it doesn’t render my question or concern any less relevant. Only stupid questions are those not asked.

After all, don’t we all agree that there is something wrong with the current precursor system? Anet’s decision to figure out alternative methods speaks volumes.

Daeron.3608:

this certainly isn’t proof of anything

You’re entirely correct in your original post. There’s honestly nothing to discuss about gold sellers claiming they have control of the market.

Daeron.3608:

After all, don’t we all agree that there is something wrong with the current precursor system? Anet’s decision to figure out alternative methods speaks volumes.

No we do not agree. The system is working as it is. The precursor market is not being monopolized, and there are still plenty of buyers willing to the price that their rarity (rightly) demands.

Anet’s decision to assign one designer, and no devs, to start brainstorming the idea on a system they’re thinking of implementing MONTHs down the road also speaks volumes about how much of a priority they see this.

We’ll see though. We do not know if Anet is happy with the rarity of precursors in the game currently. It’s very possible that they will change it, for better or worse. But for the rarity of precursors we see right now, the price is justified, and the amount of transactions that occur daily backs this up.

Signet of Forums.4397:

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

It’s also evidence that crafting legendaries probably should not have been based on highly specific items which are very rare (relative to demand) random drops. It’s not exactly like they would be super-easy to make without that factor added in. I know the topic has been discussed to death and changes are incoming at some unknown point in the future. In light of how “bling” gear was obtained in Guild Wars 1 (like Tormented weapons, for example), I still don’t really understand what the thought process was behind how precursors are currently obtained.

I have to insert a comment on this…. Torment Weapons were one thing, but how about a Voltaic Spear? Amethyst Aegis? A dozen other coveted skins in GW1 that were RNG in end game areas…. Tormented Weapons were probably one of the only non-RNG items that held value for an extended period of time, and their value plummeted during the days of ‘Ursan Way’ when a larger segment of the community had easy access to produce their own. It largely rebounded when it became a HoM eligible item. And not only did you have to RNG a skin, but for real value, you also had to RNG a low req, the right req, and heaven forbid you were working for Zodiac Weapons where you also had to RNG a desired inscription.

GW1 elite items did not have less RNG than legendary items, if anything, they had more.

CassieGold.7460:

Signet of Forums.4397:

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

It’s also evidence that crafting legendaries probably should not have been based on highly specific items which are very rare (relative to demand) random drops. It’s not exactly like they would be super-easy to make without that factor added in. I know the topic has been discussed to death and changes are incoming at some unknown point in the future. In light of how “bling” gear was obtained in Guild Wars 1 (like Tormented weapons, for example), I still don’t really understand what the thought process was behind how precursors are currently obtained.

I have to insert a comment on this…. Torment Weapons were one thing, but how about a Voltaic Spear? Amethyst Aegis? A dozen other coveted skins in GW1 that were RNG in end game areas…. Tormented Weapons were probably one of the only non-RNG items that held value for an extended period of time, and their value plummeted during the days of ‘Ursan Way’ when a larger segment of the community had easy access to produce their own. It largely rebounded when it became a HoM eligible item. And not only did you have to RNG a skin, but for real value, you also had to RNG a low req, the right req, and heaven forbid you were working for Zodiac Weapons where you also had to RNG a desired inscription.

GW1 elite items did not have less RNG than legendary items, if anything, they had more.

I worked 2 years to earn enough money for my Voltaic Spear + Tormented Weapon + Vabbian armor.

And I guess that really colors why I view the timeframe of getting legendaries “Acceptable.” Earned so far ~500G in 4 months, will have enough money for everyrhing in 1~2 years. I’m okay with that (though I realize some other people aren’t.)

Btw Cassie you mentioned my namesake =P. You have no idea how happy I am to be reminded of the good times. PS I did not Ursanway DoA. I H/H that kitten. It was painful, but awesome.

Speculating on the marketing tactics of a gold seller’s in game mail is all good and well.

But wouldn’t it be more interesting if Anet employees told us about their own marketing tactics?

This wouldn’t require any speculation on their part, and would still have plenty of potential to “educate”.

On the topic of gold, Anet could educate us on their marketing tactics with regards to gem sales. Specifically marketing aimed at encouraging gems purchased with a view to converting them into gold.

What marketing and game design decisions have Anet made in order to encourage those within their player base who are relatively time poor and cash rich to buy gems with a view to converting them into gold?

And does Anet feel that it is the demand generated by these same game design and marketing decisions that illegal gold sellers then exploit to make their money?

These imho are more interesting questions that Anet could address. They wouldn’t require speculation and there wouldn’t be the potential for mistaking an attempt at educating as condescending sarcasm.

CassieGold.7460:

Signet of Forums.4397:

John Smith.4610:

This post is evidence that their methods are effective.

It’s also evidence that crafting legendaries probably should not have been based on highly specific items which are very rare (relative to demand) random drops. It’s not exactly like they would be super-easy to make without that factor added in. I know the topic has been discussed to death and changes are incoming at some unknown point in the future. In light of how “bling” gear was obtained in Guild Wars 1 (like Tormented weapons, for example), I still don’t really understand what the thought process was behind how precursors are currently obtained.

I have to insert a comment on this…. Torment Weapons were one thing, but how about a Voltaic Spear? Amethyst Aegis? A dozen other coveted skins in GW1 that were RNG in end game areas…. Tormented Weapons were probably one of the only non-RNG items that held value for an extended period of time, and their value plummeted during the days of ‘Ursan Way’ when a larger segment of the community had easy access to produce their own. It largely rebounded when it became a HoM eligible item. And not only did you have to RNG a skin, but for real value, you also had to RNG a low req, the right req, and heaven forbid you were working for Zodiac Weapons where you also had to RNG a desired inscription.

GW1 elite items did not have less RNG than legendary items, if anything, they had more.

I figured someone might say something like that, but the thing is that you did not take those items and then do a bunch of other stuff to make them into the thing you actually wanted. I say pick one or the other. It’s kind of senseless to have something be a very rare drop and then on top of that have to do a bunch of other time-consuming stuff to make it into the item you actually want. Anyway, this is kind of off-topic and I don’t want to derail the thread too much. Just my two cents.

I’d say the over $1,000.00 real world price of Twilight, even though circumstantial, is enough evidence for me to at least question whether or not gold-selling companies might be manipulating the market. After all, this is what they do in games they thrive in, raise the prices on things so more people feel the pressure and need to buy their gold rather than make it. To say that even the possibility of this occurring isn’t happening, is naive at best.

John Smith.4610:

I’m attempting to educate individuals that goldsellers will put anything in their mails that they think makes it stick, what it is, is irrelevant.

I’m not on the forums that frequently, but I love seeing the patience you devs have for your players, right or wrong, fanatical or trolling. I’m an Army vet with one tour in Iraq and am probably the average age (26) of most of these “adults” who play your awesome game – I for one appreciate your service. Hats off to ya

Why wouldn’t they make prominent claims about precursors? From my albeit limited experience with people buying gold, the vast majority of that money is being used to buy precursors. Given that, gold sellers gain a dual benefit from making claims of controlling the pre-cursor market – both in making people despondent about their chances of getting one legitimately, and in advertising their ability to sell one directly to players to make some additional money on top.

wow i got that email ages ago —-→ report———> delete —-→ carry on the fun

gillius.2856:

wow i got that email ages ago —--> report———> delete —--> carry on the fun

Nah, I’m waiting for 11 of those before I delete them so that my email account get filled and can finally complete the ‘full email’ achievement lol.

They can claim to be the “sole agent” for precursors all they want. Thing is, we know precursors enter the market from non-gold-sellers all the time, so they can’t be the “sole agent.” It may very well be that they’re trying to control the market, but it honestly reads to me as “Hey, give us an extra few bucks and we’ll buy a precursor off the TP to go with your gold.” And really, that’s what it’ll boil down to, because I seriously doubt that botters are playing the MF for precursors. That means they have to be getting them off the TP.

This is a consequence of the best end-game equipment being more accessible via the BLTP than any other part of the game.

How to get the best end-game equipment (or its bottleneck components) in GW2, in descending order of accessibility:

1. BLTP trading
2. Zomoros lottery (low probability)
3. RNG drop during play (extremely low probability)

For as long as it is easier (currently far easier) to get the best end-game equipment by trading rather than actually playing GW2, then this significant (and highly visible) part of the market will be dominated by the machinations of traders rather than active GW2 players.

Roll on the day when, instead of being dominated by trading (or framing+trading) for gold, the path to achieving the best end-game equipment in GW2 is through actual gameplay. (After all that’s what we came here for: a really fun MMORPG. That’s right isn’t it, ArenaNet?)

Zenguy.6421:

This is a consequence of the best end-game equipment being more accessible via the BLTP than any other part of the game.

Best as in what. Stats?

1. Exotics have same stats as legendaries.
2. When new tiers (Ascended) comes out, they will have their own (much easier) method of obtaining it.
3. Grinding massively for a legendary just so you can avoid the (much smaller) grind for ascended/future tiers yeeears down the line is silly.

put yourselves into the mindset of the gold sellers.
your job is to accrue in game currency to trade for real world currency.
no doubt having contacts within the hacker community, allowing the hackers/botters to offload gold for cash is a win win situation for both parties.
but
having access to legitimate accounts to enable profiteering thru the TP is just as viable for gold collection, think of the gold sellers as a banking or share holding company, they accrue wealth, then keep that wealth active thru further investment and investment returns.
The trading post is a rich environment, ripe for manipulation. The rise and rise of the price for commodities, and in particular of those items that are high demand, was and is inevitable.
The question is, how much of this trade is going thru the hands of gold sellers seeking to maximise gold which would otherwise be static, given that a small gold selling outfit must have a bare minimum of gold in order to operate their company, investing in small return high flow transactions would be an attractive investment. Larger operations, if they exist, would see high return transactions as a viable outlet for investment, and as such it isnt a stretch of the imagination to think that weeks ago, many precursors were bought out by such companies, and the prices slowly raised to the limit of the market.

John Smith.4610:

I’m attempting to educate individuals that goldsellers will put anything in their mails that they think makes it stick, what it is, is irrelevant.

ignorance is bliss

When gold sellers find a way to remove dungeon armor and dungeon weapons from the game, then I will care.

I was more taken by telling me they love me.
No one told me that in years.

Firegoth.6427:

I was more taken by telling me they love me.
No one told me that in years.

All you need is love!

I am not going to use gold seller services but i pretty much feel that the current precursor situation pushes people towards the black market.

With the precursors being not account bound on acquire AND hardly obtainable, it force the players who want one but are casual players, and barely have enough gold to gain their weapon via real life currencies.

Few of them buys tons of gems to turn them to gold ( i can imagine ANET loves it) few of them will turn to the black market and get a LOT more gold for the same amount of real cash.

Of course this is only my opinion.

@Gaborkaldy: Nothing pushes a player anywhere. I don’t have a precursor, but I don’t feel “forced” to buy one either. Instead, I’m having loads of fun with Volcanus which I crafted the other day, while waiting for the scavenger hunt to start. I didn’t feel forced to craft Volcanus either, even though I spent a lot of time to get it.

As long as people have the notion that “hard to get items” give them status, there will be gold sellers to fulfill their needs. This is, however, not a reason to increase the droprate of precursors. Because if precursors drop like rain, people will just turn to goldsellers to get their gift of magic. They’ll say “we had to turn to goldsellers, because with all the precursors available, the t6 market suddenly exploded and Anet did nothing to increase the t6 droprate”, or something similar.

The fact that the precursor droprate is insanely low is a reason to increase the droprate, nothing else. These issues should not be confused.

@Buttercup:
I see you your point. But every player is different. You and i might wont buy gold from those gold sellers but i would put all my hard earned gold on the fact there are lots of players who already fullfilled their last ingredient(precursor) for legendary trough these services.. I had a guild mate in 1 of my old fallen apart guild who had all the gifts and all he did was working towards the raising precursor prices and been always behind with few dozen gold, and no, not every can play with trading post (including me).

The difference between T6 materials and precursors. If T6 mats prices will raise like they does in the past couple of weeks again. You can actually FARM them. I was killing only simple mobs in CS and Frost and managed to get all my T6 mats from 0 to 20+ in just 2 days off work.

I am not saying precursors should rain from sky. I am only saying they should implement the exact way to get them. A goal needs to be set for the people that worth working for. If its 400G on Miyani, or 1000 rare drop into MF, or the hardest dungeon ever it doesn’t matter. Just a goal.

This is a common mistake (which I committed as well): getting the precursor last. All those mats for the gifts could have bought your former guild mate a precursor a long time ago. After that, he could simply farm the mats again which, as you say, is doable.

I bet though that your former guildmate would have turned to his goldseller for his next bottleneck, for example lodestones. There’s always a bottleneck, and there always will be (look at silver doubloons, there will always be some crazy item!) I’m just saying it’s the mindset that is the root of the problem. That mindset is not, and should never be, an argument in the whole precursor debate.

Am I the only one here alarmed that goldsellers would probably have stocks of 10+ of each precursor along with huge reserves of gold in reserve for their goldselling business? :|

i don’t think, that there are many offers of non-gold-sellers in the TP. I’d just sell it to the highest offer, cause that would give me about 500g.

The problem is, that the highest offers are offers of gold sellers, too.
So it doesn’t matter what you do, in the end a gold-seller will buy you’re precursor.

There should be another event like Karka which floods the market with precursor for a short time. → Gold-sellers couldn’t buy all → normal players have a chance for a precursor and there are many players who just wait for their precursor to complete their legendary

Surferboy.1649:

The problem is, that the highest offers are offers of gold sellers, too.

I’m curious as how you know this.

My impression is that, because you yourself can’t comprehend offering 500-700G for a precursor, you automatically assume no one else in the general populace can.

I assure you, there are plenty of wealthy people who 1. are not gold sellers and 2. did not earn money playing the TP. Just because you can’t comprehend it, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

That’s it guys. The requirements aren’t unreasonable you’re just doing it wrong. Go grind CoF until you have your 500+ gold. Other people can do it so can you.

There is no problem here.

well Ursan, why are there always offers for precursors who differ just by 1 silver or less. If these where different people, there would probably be a fight between these. But the offers stay this way for many days.
That’s why I think these offers are of goldsellers.

And is grinding really what Anet wants of us? Farming all day and night or is it to achieve a legendary weapon while having fun?