Guild Wars 2

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

There is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed profit from flipping.

There are…. certain items that do in fact guarantee profit. But like anyone else who has an uninvaded market on the trade post, I’m not going to spoil my own profit. I’ll simply confirm that they do exist. Smart TP players should be able to easily find the items I’m talking about too.

How do you prevent others from undercutting you when they see the same good deal? Once the spread becomes narrow enough, the item is not worth flipping anymore.

If you know when to stop flipping, you can generally earn a profit overall, but you need to monitor and you certainly can’t say that there is absolutely no risk to flipping like what LordByron is saying.

Because I dont stay in those markets until they run dry or start bleeding money
from me. I poke at them so they bleed enough money to suit whatever need I had at that time, and then I move on to other things and let the market recover. It’s remained stable for as long as I’ve been using it.

Which points to what I said about knowing when to get out which requires some amount of active playing and monitoring. Certainly not equivalent to a risk-free investing.

Knowing when to get out because profit is no longer there is distinctly different to getting out because you dont need that amount of profit anymore. It’s risk-free because I do not stay and abuse the market long enough that the risk becomes tangible enough to impact it’s viability.

If there is really no risk then you why do you need to monitor? It is because there is a risk of getting caught staying there for too long right? You would never know for sure how long is too long. Also if you have really bad luck that one day, isn’t it still possible that many people can undercut you?

So how can you say that the risk is absolutely zero as in really “risk-free”?

Wanze.8410:

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

There is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed profit from flipping.

There are…. certain items that do in fact guarantee profit. But like anyone else who has an uninvaded market on the trade post, I’m not going to spoil my own profit. I’ll simply confirm that they do exist. Smart TP players should be able to easily find the items I’m talking about too.

How do you prevent others from undercutting you when they see the same good deal? Once the spread becomes narrow enough, the item is not worth flipping anymore.

If you know when to stop flipping, you can generally earn a profit overall, but you need to monitor and you certainly can’t say that there is absolutely no risk to flipping like what LordByron is saying.

Because I dont stay in those markets until they run dry or start bleeding money
from me. I poke at them so they bleed enough money to suit whatever need I had at that time, and then I move on to other things and let the market recover. It’s remained stable for as long as I’ve been using it.

So they dont guarantee profit 100% of the time, as you claimed earlier.

100% of the time I’m in the market, they do guarantee profit. Granted, it’s a lose-lose situation for me. I cant reveal what I use for profit to show it exists, because doing so loses it’s viability for such profit for me, and consequently invalidates the fact it provides risk-free profit.

So the rest of you can keep denying such things exist while I continue making money out of them.

Its still the wrong comparison between profits and rewards. If that dungeon guarantees a 15g coin reward, if you clear it in under 1 hour its something entirely different than making 15g profit per hour on the tp.

Not significantly enough that it fails as an example.

The dungeon runners dont have to make an initial investment except their gear and skills, which, in case of failure, wont be taken off them. The TP Player need skills and gold and takes the risk to lose his gold, while the dungeon runner gets to keep his gear, in case he fails.

The amount of risk you choose to take on is up to you, there are methods of profiting with very minimal risks and very reasonable returns. In any case, potential losses are on you, we’re only talking about the profits here. Just because it’s a gamble does not mean that you are unaccountable for the profits, even lottery winners have to pay the same taxes as anyone else.

I would actually be fine with a challenging dungeon that rewards 15g in coins (no extra loot, no other currency, titles or achievement points), if you clear it in under 1 hour and failure will be punished as well.

Well, as should be apparent in my example, I would not be fine with that, because I believe that a diverse variety of activities should be equally rewarding, so that no one activity is deemed “the only one worth bothering with.”

Everytime a party member dies, 1g will be deducted from the final reward. Or each party member has to pay 1-5g to enter the dungeon and if the party is able to clear it in under an hour, they get 4 times their entrance fee back. If they fail to do so, they get no reward and lose their fee.

I think you’re veering a bit off course from the discussion, but I think it’s a bad idea in general to punish players for the failures of others more than is absolutely necessary. Players should only ever be punished for their own failures. To get back to the TP, you don’t get punished just because some other traders are idiots (well, some might temporarily drive the price down, but if you posted anywhere near actual value it’ll climb back up over time). It is kind of amusing that you propose having a harsh time limit for getting a dungeon reward, when the TP has no time limits at all. It might spice things up a bit if the TP had a 24 hour timer after which your items would be returned to you if it didn’t sell, listing fee eaten.

I would be fine with that, even, if i would propably not be someone reaping much rewards frm this.
But still, there is a fundamental difference in both, as the dungeon is a gold faucet, favouring inflation, while playing the tp is a gold sink.

Again, an irrelevant distinction. Inflation/sink is an economist problem, and of course JS needs to consider such factors, but from the player perspective all that matters is whether each player has more gold in his hand at the end of the process, not where the gold came from. As a game developer, JS has more to worry about than just the crystal sphere macro-economic impacts of a game system, he also needs to consider the one-the-ground personal impact on each player. A system is not automatically “harmless” just because it’s non-inflationary, it has to both fit into a healthy inflation model AND be a “fair” game reward mechanism.

Anyone selling anything on the market, makes money and LOTS of players are benefiting from it. As for comparing it to an exploit, well that is just a patently wrong.

But just selling what you have on the market is a far different thing than to have some corner of the market that makes you money, but that you can’t tell anyone about because if several people were doing the exact same thing then you wouldn’t be able to make money on it anymore. As I said, in any other context that would be considered an exploit, it is only due to ANEt’s largess they they choose to not consider it such.

If some people can’t learn, tough. Before you jump on that let’s look at the most important part you seem to keep getting wrong. Fishing is not the only industry in town. You can make massive amounts of gold via non TP methods.

Not as much, not nearly as easily for those that can get a handle on it. It doesn’t matter that there are alternatives if those alternatives are not competitively balanced. Again, if a Warrior could do ten times the damage of any other class, it wouldn’t matter if the damage the other classes could do was at least good enough to get through any of the content, it would still be unbalanced that the Warrior was dealing ten times the damage.

I have to go, I’ll finish reading responses later. . .

Aidan Savage.2078:

Wanze.8410:

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Aidan Savage.2078:

DarkSpirit.7046:

There is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed profit from flipping.

There are…. certain items that do in fact guarantee profit. But like anyone else who has an uninvaded market on the trade post, I’m not going to spoil my own profit. I’ll simply confirm that they do exist. Smart TP players should be able to easily find the items I’m talking about too.

How do you prevent others from undercutting you when they see the same good deal? Once the spread becomes narrow enough, the item is not worth flipping anymore.

If you know when to stop flipping, you can generally earn a profit overall, but you need to monitor and you certainly can’t say that there is absolutely no risk to flipping like what LordByron is saying.

Because I dont stay in those markets until they run dry or start bleeding money
from me. I poke at them so they bleed enough money to suit whatever need I had at that time, and then I move on to other things and let the market recover. It’s remained stable for as long as I’ve been using it.

So they dont guarantee profit 100% of the time, as you claimed earlier.

100% of the time I’m in the market, they do guarantee profit. Granted, it’s a lose-lose situation for me. I cant reveal what I use for profit to show it exists, because doing so loses it’s viability for such profit for me, and consequently invalidates the fact it provides risk-free profit.

So the rest of you can keep denying such things exist while I continue making money out of them.

You took a calculated risk, but any calculated risk is still a risk. Being “risk-free” is a totally different definition. If it is really risk-free then it is guaranteed profit, if that is the case, you should be able to tell us and still get your guaranteed profit. Since you can’t, then it can never be risk free as, as you claimed, this is an open market. You are trying to avoid competition by not telling us, which means that competition is a risk and has always been a risk to you as market competition has always exist.

An example of a “Risk Free” activity:

Mine Iron Ore.
Sell Iron Ore to Merchant for 3c.

mtpelion.4562:

An example of a “Risk Free” activity:

Mine Iron Ore.
Sell Iron Ore to Merchant for 3c.

And you’ve made a 2.4c profit without using the Trading Post at all. Congratulations!!! :-)

Charismatic Harm.9683:

mtpelion.4562:

An example of a “Risk Free” activity:

Mine Iron Ore.
Sell Iron Ore to Merchant for 3c.

And you’ve made a 2.4c profit without using the Trading Post at all. Congratulations!!! :-)

More or less, depending on what pick you used and whether you consider opportunity costs in a video game.

Come on, let’s be honest now. There is next to no risk flipping many items, for example many blue weapons and trinkets. Now, it’s not zero risk, and it may be a bit cumbersome, and you may have to wait a while, and the profit isn’t always that great, but there is essentially no risk. This might change if more people enter the market, but as yet many of these items can more or less be flipped risk free.

Bunda.2691:

Come on, let’s be honest now. There is next to no risk flipping many items, for example many blue weapons and trinkets. Now, it’s not zero risk, and it may be a bit cumbersome, and you may have to wait a while, but there is essentially no risk. This might change if more people enter the market, but as yet many of these items can more or less be flipped risk free.

I haven’t played around with blue weapons and trinkets, but if the risk is as low as you say then the profits are probably quite low as well.

Ohoni.6057:

1. Not significantly enough that it fails as an example.
2. The amount of risk you choose to take on is up to you, there are methods of profiting with very minimal risks and very reasonable returns. In any case, potential losses are on you, we’re only talking about the profits here. Just because it’s a gamble does not mean that you are unaccountable for the profits, even lottery winners have to pay the same taxes as anyone else.
3. I think you’re veering a bit off course from the discussion, but I think it’s a bad idea in general to punish players for the failures of others more than is absolutely necessary. Players should only ever be punished for their own failures. It is kind of amusing that you propose having a harsh time limit for getting a dungeon reward, when the TP has no time limits at all. It might spice things up a bit if the TP had a 24 hour timer after which your items would be returned to you if it didn’t sell, listing fee eaten.
4. Again, an irrelevant distinction. Inflation/sink is an economist problem, and of course JS needs to consider such factors, but from the player perspective all that matters is whether each player has more gold in his hand at the end of the process, not where the gold came from. As a game developer, JS has more to worry about than just the crystal sphere macro-economic impacts of a game system, he also needs to consider the one-the-ground personal impact on each player. A system is not automatically “harmless” just because it’s non-inflationary, it has to both fit into a healthy inflation model AND be a “fair” game reward mechanism.

I have to go, I’ll finish reading responses later. . .

1. I think it is significant enough because as you mentioned later on, JS has to look at the economy as a whole, when he implements changes.
2. Just because im gambling doesnt mean that i cant account my losses at the end of the day because subtracted from my profits, they define my profits per day. And even though i make more profit than others, I still pay the same taxes. I never asked for a reduction in taxes because i function as an awesome goldsink. In fact, we are just working on the exact opposite, to tax me more.
3. I agree i veered off the discussion on how to implement a system that taxes rich players more but you started it with your dungeon example. I only proposed the time limit on the dungeon because you suggested it should be a hard dungeon in your original post. The time limit was in my eyes the best solution to make the dungeon challenging and introduce a risk of no reward. I agree that you shouldnt be punished for other peoples mistakes, so make it a solo dungeon, for examples sake.
4. I think its relevant and JS is doing just that in this topic. I already asked you in the last part of my prior post, what you would change but you didnt have time reply, so i hope, you will do that later.

If JS would just open the gold faucet for everybody and gives you as much gold per hour as i make on the tp, prices on the tp will increase, enabling me to make even more profit, so thats no solution. If you think he also has a responsibility to take the one the ground personal impact on each player, youre right and he is doing exactly that now. He asked for your input on how rich players impact your game experience negatively and how you think we could downgrade the profits available on the tp without lowering the game experience in general. I understand that you think that potential profits on the tp should be more in line with general pve rewards, i think we established that by now.

Maybe its time for you to get constructive, stop arguing the problem but come up with a solution to make this a better game for everybody.

mtpelion.4562:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

mtpelion.4562:

An example of a “Risk Free” activity:

Mine Iron Ore.
Sell Iron Ore to Merchant for 3c.

And you’ve made a 2.4c profit without using the Trading Post at all. Congratulations!!! :-)

More or less, depending on what pick you used and whether you consider opportunity costs in a video game.

Actually, i would consider mining iron ore and selling it to the highest bidder on the tp risk free as well.

Ohoni.6057

In any case, potential losses are on you, we’re only talking about the profits here. Just because it’s a gamble does not mean that you are unaccountable for the profits, even lottery winners have to pay the same taxes as anyone else.

There is a fallacy in this argument. Why is one responsible for profits and not losses?

People who gamble can also deduct losses on their tax return to offset the gain:
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html

brittitude.1983:

Ohoni.6057

In any case, potential losses are on you, we’re only talking about the profits here. Just because it’s a gamble does not mean that you are unaccountable for the profits, even lottery winners have to pay the same taxes as anyone else.

There is a fallacy in this argument. Why is one responsible for profits and not losses?

People who gamble can also deduct losses on their tax return to offset the gain:
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html

God, let’s not get started on the validity of various tax deductions. So much potential for discussion there.

But yes, you make a good point.

Zaxares.5419:

I must admit, I would LOVE to see an updated distribution of wealth chart for the GW2 player base.

This would go such a long ways. I do fear however that it would not be pretty. Remember how the equality of the economy was boasted back we got one? Typically things that are not beneficial are not boasted….ie…if JS and Anet claimed it was a positive then, why wouldn’t it be so now?

And I quote JS:

while the GW2 economy is young, we hope to maintain a high level of equality.

Now why would they hope to maintain equality, yet indulge something that results in the opposite?

Bunda.2691:

brittitude.1983:

Ohoni.6057

In any case, potential losses are on you, we’re only talking about the profits here. Just because it’s a gamble does not mean that you are unaccountable for the profits, even lottery winners have to pay the same taxes as anyone else.

There is a fallacy in this argument. Why is one responsible for profits and not losses?

People who gamble can also deduct losses on their tax return to offset the gain:
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html

God, let’s not get started on the validity of various tax deductions. So much potential for discussion there.

But yes, you make a good point.

They should take advantage of that so people can stop complaining about not getting a prec off the mystic toilet. Afterall, they are gambling and losing xD

Granted, the lottery is a bad example. A more accurate one is buying stocks in a startup company at their IPO, and then the next year their stock value has quadrupled in price and you sell at a massive profit. Or, you bought the same number of stocks and then the company subsquently goes bankrupt and dissolves the month afterward.

Ohoni.6057:

But just selling what you have on the market is a far different thing than to have some corner of the market that makes you money, but that you can’t tell anyone about because if several people were doing the exact same thing then you wouldn’t be able to make money on it anymore. As I said, in any other context that would be considered an exploit, it is only due to ANEt’s largess they they choose to not consider it such.

You said the market only makes gold for/benefits the few. Which is ofc is incorrect.

Btw, no, finding a profitable niche and then keeping it quiet in order to continue to profit from it is not exploiting or remotely close to exploiting. I gather someone who finds a good farm spot and doesn’t tell anyone is exploiting? I gather someone who works out a really good pvp build but doesn’t tell anyone is exploiting?

Stop being daft.

Not as much, not nearly as easily for those that can get a handle on it.

Awww. If someone can’t handle it, er tough? If someone can’t speed run/solo dungeons, cba to farm ever, or can’t work out how to make gold from meta events then they don’t deserve to make as much gold as those that can.

It doesn’t matter that there are alternatives if those alternatives are not competitively balanced.

As I mentioned before, you really shouldn’t keep mentioning “balance” when you are unable to present any evidence as to the disparity in the systems, or the harm they are supposedly doing.

Those alternatives btw, can and do earn massive amounts of gold, as has been pointed out time after time after time again. People can and do make masses of gold from pve, they can and do buy (multiple legendaries) and have gold coming out of their ears. Moreover they are doing as such making constant and consistent gains with zero risk and all the whilst getting other stuff like SP’s, AP, Tokens, badges, Karma and xp.

Again, if a Warrior could do ten times the damage of any other class, it wouldn’t matter if the damage the other classes could do was at least good enough to get through any of the content, it would still be unbalanced that the Warrior was dealing ten times the damage.

I’ve seen you use the this warrior analogy before, it’s awful and doesn’t fit the supposed scenario at all.

A warrior doing a dungeon and another class doing a dungeon are beholden to exactly the same mechanics and risks and return exactly the same rewards. If then a warrior was doing a bazzilion times more damage then there would be a case for a balance issue. However you will note that “playing” pve and “playing” the TP/economy are not beholden to exactly the same mechanics, risk or reward profile. Hence your analogy is bunk.

If every time you entered a dungeon you had to stump up 400g, 15% of which you can lose. If the dungeon was zero sum and saw you competing for rewards against other players. If the dungeons reward was erratic in value and not instant in return. If the dungeon didn’t also grant you XP, Karma, Tokens, SP’s and the chance for lucky additional high value drops. If the dungeon was a gold sink and not a pump. Then you might start to have a point, given none of that is the case, alas, you don’t.

Essence Snow.3194:

Now why would they hope to maintain equality, yet indulge something that results in the opposite?

This is an example of why the term “equality” shouldn’t be used.

There are those who believe “equality” means equal access/opportunity and those who believe it means equal result. Those two positions are mutually exclusive which frequently leads to a breakdown in communication when the word is used.

John Smith did not use “equality” in the sense that everyone should have the same rate of income, regardless of the content they choose to play.

Essence Snow.3194:

Zaxares.5419:

I must admit, I would LOVE to see an updated distribution of wealth chart for the GW2 player base.

This would go such a long ways. I do fear however that it would not be pretty. Remember how the equality of the economy was boasted back we got one? Typically things that are not beneficial are not boasted….ie…if JS and Anet claimed it was a positive then, why wouldn’t it be so now?

And I quote JS:

while the GW2 economy is young, we hope to maintain a high level of equality.

Now why would they hope to maintain equality, yet indulge something that results in the opposite?

Only 2 reasons there was even a little equality at the start of the game:
1. Everyone started out with nothing so people had to work to make that little bit.

2. Bots, I wish they were still everywhere(first time I have ever said this in a game) because it kept supply up for fine mats.

But JS doesn’t want an even halfway “equal” economy, he wants an “interesting” economy and IMO that’s not good for anyone except the super rich.

Fenrir.3609:

Those alternatives btw, can and do earn massive amounts of gold, as has been pointed out time after time after time again. People can and do make masses of gold from pve, they can and do buy (multiple legendaries) and have gold coming out of their ears. Moreover they are doing as such making constant and consistent gains with zero risk and all the whilst getting other stuff like SP’s, AP, Tokens, badges, Karma and xp.

There is no way (as i do/have done both investing and “farming”) that any other activity in game even comes close to money you can make in TP profits for the same amount of time invested. The closest thing was CoF farming which got shutdown and it wasn’t even that close.

I don’t subscribe to the rich ruining the market idea, but there is a very clear difference in TP dabbling and playing any of the content. It’s not wrong either that it’s that way, but i’m pretty sure his point was that drastic difference in earning gold.

I still think the market is going to burst for a bit then settle post April 15th. Which should bring it more in line with just playing the content. Least that’s my hope anyway.

sirflamesword.3896:

But JS doesn’t want an even halfway “equal” economy, he wants an “interesting” economy and IMO that’s not good for anyone except the super rich.

I find this both presumptuous and ridiculous. The economy and TP are his work and I’m sure he takes tremendous pride in making sure it works the best for everyone involved in the game. And if you don’t believe this then at the very least you can believe he wants to keep his job, thus wanting to make sure it works for everyone.

Again, you have zero proof. When making wild claims over and over again (as you are doing), then it’s best to have some shred of evidence. You have none.

Again, I agree. My evidence is anecdotal at best, but I work with what I have available to me. If JS wants to provide more evidence, that’d be great. If my assertions are wrong, he can disprove them and that’d be fine too. I don’t expect ANet to act on my assertions if the evidence totally contradicts me, if there are none of these players with multiple legendaries or thousands of gold, and all the people who claim to be in this class are liars, but I doubt that’s the case.

My estimated guess is that at least 100k bolts of damask were crafted on patch day.

I doubt that. That would mean that 100k people got their crafting to 450 in that one day, since it could only craft one per day. It was probably quite a bit lower than that.

Just because you reject it doesn’t make it false. Load the game, open the TP, click the circular arrows, click convert gems to gold. There, Anet makes money off people converting gems to gold.

I’m not arguing that they make zero money off of this practice, I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s a significant amount of their business model, to the point that they would deliberately harm other aspects of the game to encourage players to cash-to-gold. I think they make much more money off of the gem store itself, which is based off players enjoying the other aspects of the game. All I’m saying is “because ANet wants people to not have as much gold as they’d like, so they buy the gold using gems,” is not an argument that I believe to be valid.

And currently I could buy any legendary for $10 (except for eternity which bumps you into the $20 bracket). I think your hyperbolic approximation of thousands of dollars is off.

. . .
The current rate is 5g to the dollar. The decent legendaries are in the 2500-3000 gold range. That’s $500-600, not $10. $10 would get you 50g or so, which is not enough to put a downpayment on the weakest Precursors. Unless you’re talking the illegal gold sellers, of course.

I wouldnt bother either. The price of Radiant Dust crashed down to 2-3s 15 minutes after it peaked because hoarders decided to unload and had a price war. This wasnt speculation either, it was nothing but reaction to a sudden, and enormously massive, spike in demand. That being said, even sites like gw2spidy would not have helped. The price rose and crashed long before the site would have had a chance to update.

Which is the problem, some people made massive profits off of the shift, while everyone else did not. The economy should be more stable than that.

So what? Many other players have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours searching and experimenting with new strategies, developing tools, debugging them, testing them, fixing them, planning and analyzing TP data also. Why should those hours count any less?

That’s a straw man argument. I’ve never even once argued that their time should count any less. My argument is that their time should not count for MORE, as is currently the case. Currently, time spent mastering the TP rewards magnitudes more than time spent mastering any other element of the game. None of my suggestions are intended to completely negate all profit potential for the TP, although I would not shed a tear if that were the result. The goal, instead, is just to bring the profit potential more in line with other ways of gaining profit in the game.

tp lacks risk, funniest thing I’ve read today. If it was true. I would be far more rich than I am.

The TP can involve some risk, and the more you risk, the greater the potential rewards over the short term, but there are also fairly low risk strategies that offer lower rewards (but still better over time than actually playing the game can offer). As Byron noted, even “losing” rarely means losing everything, it just means maybe you have to sell at a price that falls below the listing price so you don’t turn a profit on the deal. “Failure” far more often comes in the form of just not making as much profit as you could have had you moved earlier or later than you did.

Continued. . .

Like I have said, TP requires time to analyze and plan but some people here seem to think otherwise and you can just jump right into TP investing and make lots of gold from the air.

No, clearly you can’t just throw money at it and get more back, but once you do know what you’re doing, you can play it as cautiously or as recklessly as you like, and if you choose cautious then it can be highly profitable with veeeery little risk of failure.

If there is really no risk then you why do you need to monitor? It is because there is a risk of getting caught staying there for too long right? You would never know for sure how long is too long. Also if you have really bad luck that one day, isn’t it still possible that many people can undercut you?

So how can you say that the risk is absolutely zero as in really “risk-free”?

If you regularly make 2g per day running a given operation, and then one day after a week of doing this you lose 2g on the deal, that is not “risk,” that is not “failure.” You’re still ahead by 12g, it would only qualify as “risk” if you stood to lose 14g when the deal went bust, and that’s a lot of unnecessary leveraging. So long as you make an overall profit, the potential to lose a fraction of that profit on an element that goes bad is not true “risk.”

I think it is significant enough because as you mentioned later on, JS has to look at the economy as a whole, when he implements changes.

Yes, but as I went on to say, that is not the ONLY thing he should be considering.

I agree i veered off the discussion on how to implement a system that taxes rich players more but you started it with your dungeon example. I only proposed the time limit on the dungeon because you suggested it should be a hard dungeon in your original post. The time limit was in my eyes the best solution to make the dungeon challenging and introduce a risk of no reward. I agree that you shouldnt be punished for other peoples mistakes, so make it a solo dungeon, for examples sake.

I was considering something more like it would have a jumping puzzle that could not be bypassed or carried through, or boss fights that required lots of fast reflexes to avoid OHKO situations. Now maybe a player is really good at jumping puzzles and would consider that dungeon effortless, while another player is better at fast reflex dodging, and could easily handle those boss fights. If ANet decided that the dungeon that had the big jumping puzzle rewarded several times as much as the one that had the tricky boss fights, then one player would receive way more reward for doing what he was good at than the other, even though objectively they were each equally difficult in their own way, and the players were each equally skilled in their own way.

That’s my point, TP players aren’t “better” than other players, they are just better at doing one specific type of thing, and as it turns out that one specific thing is way more rewarding than anything else in the game. I think it’s fine that they are better at that element, and I think it’s find that they would be able to make a reasonable amount of reward from that skill, I just object to that reward being so far above and beyond the rewards for other types of skill.

If JS would just open the gold faucet for everybody and gives you as much gold per hour as i make on the tp, prices on the tp will increase, enabling me to make even more profit, so thats no solution.

Agreed, which is why I have not suggested they just dump cash into the economy unless they sink it elsewhere. That’s why I feel that the primary solution has to involve siphoning money out of the economy from those who can most stand to lose it, those with the most to spend.

Maybe its time for you to get constructive, stop arguing the problem but come up with a solution to make this a better game for everybody.

I’ve made my suggestions. I’m not a trained economist so I grant that they might not be the best one. I’m doing my best here, but at the end of the day it’s not my responsibility to come up with a solution, I’m just presenting the problem as I see it, and it would be up to ANet to figure out a solution for it. I’m just concerned that it seems that currently they refuse to admit that there is a problem, as seems to be the case with many of you.

Continued. . .

There is a fallacy in this argument. Why is one responsible for profits and not losses?

People who gamble can also deduct losses on their tax return to offset the gain:
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html

Fair enough, and if they can come up with a mechanism in which players could get some benefit to offset their losses, to go with a tax on their earnings, then I would be theoretically fine with that, I just don’t understand how that could work in a way that could not be exploited and result in an effective sink on earnings alone.

You said the market only makes gold for/benefits the few. Which is ofc is incorrect.

No, I didn’t. I said that playing the market, as in buying with the intention to resell, speculating, that sort of behavior, mostly only benefits the few. I’m pretty sure most players benefit from the market itself every day, and nobody is talking about actually removing the market or significantly damaging it’s ability to provide the core functions of A. providing a place for players to offload the goods they loot/harvest themselves, and B. providing a place to find items that you need but were unable to loot/harvest yourself.

Of course there are people that get a rare drop and sell it off for a few silver, nobody is talking about messing with them to any significant degree, the discussion on the table involves those players that maybe buy up a dozen items at a low price, which they have no personal need for, and then throw them back up at a higher price, pocketing the difference.

I gather someone who finds a good farm spot and doesn’t tell anyone is exploiting? I gather someone who works out a really good pvp build but doesn’t tell anyone is exploiting?

. . .

Yeah, in many cases they are. I remember back near launch when a bunch of players found a good farming spot in Brisban Wildlands where they could just wail on constantly spawning monsters. I believe a lot of them were banned. When you find an exploit that’s too good to be true, you report it and move on.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not arguing that they make zero money off of this practice, I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s a significant amount of their business model, to the point that they would deliberately harm other aspects of the game to encourage players to cash-to-gold. I think they make much more money off of the gem store itself, which is based off players enjoying the other aspects of the game. All I’m saying is “because ANet wants people to not have as much gold as they’d like, so they buy the gold using gems,” is not an argument that I believe to be valid.

Without the numbers that Anet most certainly won’t provide to us we can’t know which makes them more money. However I have given you reasons how they do make money off this. And we have both agreed that they do in fact make money off of this. The only way to make money off of this is by making hard to make gold in game. If they don’t make it hard, there is no money to be made here and there is no point in putting in the feature. They are a business. Everything they do is perfectly analyzed to make them money. All you have said is, that’s wrong because I don’t think its true. Please come up with any reason why there is a possibility this is wrong.

Ohoni.6057:

. . .
The current rate is 5g to the dollar. The decent legendaries are in the 2500-3000 gold range. That’s $500-600, not $10. $10 would get you 50g or so, which is not enough to put a downpayment on the weakest Precursors. Unless you’re talking the illegal gold sellers, of course.

Yes I know this was bad math. Double checking my math I was using incorrect factors of 10. I have realized my mistake and removed my incorrect statement. Your answer of around $500-$600 is correct. Which I would like to point out still isn’t thousands of dollars. This is also assuming you are buying a full legendary off the TP with straight up cash. Which I’m sure happens but isn’t the dominant way. The more common way would be to pay in installments for pieces of a legendary and craft their own. Such as a little extra to put towards a precursor or t6 mats with much more affordable price increments.

Ohoni.6057:

. . .

Yeah, in many cases they are. I remember back near launch when a bunch of players found a good farming spot in Brisban Wildlands where they could just wail on constantly spawning monsters. I believe a lot of them were banned. When you find an exploit that’s too good to be true, you report it and move on.

Not that this example fits the original scenario in the first place the more likely scenario is that Anet fixed their bugs and the players who took advantage of this moved on. You have to stop using that phrase “I believe” without any reasoning behind it.

Since removing more gold from the rich or bringing their ability to make gold in line with everyone else is “punishment” no matter what is suggested, how about a different suggestion?

How about we reduce reliance on the TP? As it stands, due to abysmally low drop rates, unkind RNG, and practically everything being based around gold, the TP is the only way to get anywhere.

So, the goal is to in some way equalize all time and efforts to allow people to be rewarded for the things they like to do. So….

-Leave gemstore products as they are, requiring either money or gold to gem (this leaves ANet’s profits alone)
-Make available to every karma and laurel merchant those items which are not currently available, including other types of Exotic and Ascended gear
-At minimum, make all types of Ascended Gear purchasable with fractal relics (or whatever they’re called), if not also through things like karma
-Alternatively, or added onto this, add reward tracks like what PVP seems to be getting. These tracks would require certain and/or X amount of Y (where Y is events, hearts, etc.) Choose your track, choose your reward, go from there.
-Actually implement the fracking Precursor hunt

-To prevent the TP from becoming too devalued, items and skins obtained in these fashions will come with some type of binding. I don’t know if anything would need to be done about salvaging.
-If all else fails, just increase drop rates and reduce RNG at some level

If nerfing the trading post is unacceptable, then the only other option is to reduce how much a player has to rely on gold to be able to effectively get the things they want to get. That means things like reward tracks/token systems/buffing other currencies that already exist in the game.

So long as the time and effort is balanced out (which would no doubt require testing), then people will choose whatever system they want to. Flippers will still get their potential massive profits. It’s just that people will no longer be chained to needing the TP. It will be 100% optional because other avenues will actually exist that allow people to reach their end goal.

Ohoni.6057:

I gather someone who finds a good farm spot and doesn’t tell anyone is exploiting? I gather someone who works out a really good pvp build but doesn’t tell anyone is exploiting?

. . .

Yeah, in many cases they are. I remember back near launch when a bunch of players found a good farming spot in Brisban Wildlands where they could just wail on constantly spawning monsters. I believe a lot of them were banned. When you find an exploit that’s too good to be true, you report it and move on.

…

People get banned because they are exploiting game mechanics, not because they are keeping their farming spot secret. The act of keeping your farming spot secret for as long as possible is not exploiting.

Those people who flip the TP are playing the game within the intended rule set, they are not exploiting. The fact that they don’t go about telling everyone exactly what item they are currently flipping is not exploiting, at all. Thinking otherwise is borderline insanity quite frankly.

the discussion on the table involves those players that maybe buy up a dozen items at a low price, which they have no personal need for, and then throw them back up at a higher price, pocketing the difference.

It’s called the bid/ask spread and there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with it.

if there are none of these players with multiple legendaries or thousands of gold, and all the people who claim to be in this class are liars, but I doubt that’s the case.

That people have multiple legendaries and thousands of gold does nothing to back up your argument…. I have already explained to you that there are players with multiple legendaries and thousands of gold derived from non TP methods. Moreover should the top TP players have lots of gold does not prove AT ALL that the current market/economy is broken, harmful or otherwise need changing.

Gene Archer.8560:

Since removing more gold from the rich or bringing their ability to make gold in line with everyone else is “punishment” no matter what is suggested, how about a different suggestion?

How about we reduce reliance on the TP? As it stands, due to abysmally low drop rates, unkind RNG, and practically everything being based around gold, the TP is the only way to get anywhere.

So, the goal is to in some way equalize all time and efforts to allow people to be rewarded for the things they like to do. So….

-Leave gemstore products as they are, requiring either money or gold to gem (this leaves ANet’s profits alone)
-Make available to every karma and laurel merchant those items which are not currently available, including other types of Exotic and Ascended gear
-At minimum, make all types of Ascended Gear purchasable with fractal relics (or whatever they’re called), if not also through things like karma
-Alternatively, or added onto this, add reward tracks like what PVP seems to be getting. These tracks would require certain and/or X amount of Y (where Y is events, hearts, etc.) Choose your track, choose your reward, go from there.
-Actually implement the fracking Precursor hunt

-To prevent the TP from becoming too devalued, items and skins obtained in these fashions will come with some type of binding. I don’t know if anything would need to be done about salvaging.
-If all else fails, just increase drop rates and reduce RNG at some level

If nerfing the trading post is unacceptable, then the only other option is to reduce how much a player has to rely on gold to be able to effectively get the things they want to get. That means things like reward tracks/token systems/buffing other currencies that already exist in the game.

So long as the time and effort is balanced out (which would no doubt require testing), then people will choose whatever system they want to. Flippers will still get their potential massive profits. It’s just that people will no longer be chained to needing the TP. It will be 100% optional because other avenues will actually exist that allow people to reach their end goal.

Thank you for at least providing suggestions! Really appreciate this.

Now the problem with reducing the reliance on gold is that it, inadvertently, does affect the gem shop and converting gems to gold. Increasing drop rates of items means people get what they want without needing large amounts of gold which is good. But then what do people spend their gold on? If people aren’t spending gold for the items they need, they are saving more and more of it. This makes it easier to buy gems with gold and affects Anet’s profits.

People may want to look up how much Anet made in micro transactions. The more gems are worth the better it is for them. Now lets see, what is connected to gems that give them value….

william dj.6953:

People may want to look up how much Anet made in micro transactions. The more gems are worth the better it is for them. Now lets see, what is connected to gems that give them value….

Gold, though only directly through some “Sooper pooper sekret 4moola” or some equally foolish method that determines the actual conversion value.

Schizo.1375:

Without the numbers that Anet most certainly won’t provide to us we can’t know which makes them more money. However I have given you reasons how they do make money off this. And we have both agreed that they do in fact make money off of this. The only way to make money off of this is by making hard to make gold in game. If they don’t make it hard, there is no money to be made here and there is no point in putting in the feature. They are a business. Everything they do is perfectly analyzed to make them money. All you have said is, that’s wrong because I don’t think its true. Please come up with any reason why there is a possibility this is wrong.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem
Look at the conversion rate history, that really should be enough to show that there are more transactions of Gold to Gems than the inverse. It also shows to some extent the wealth of the community. I can probably find several videos of people with 1000’s of gold buying gems to open 100’s of Black lion chests or some other such thing. I really don’t think there is a majority that buys gems with cash that anet is trying to keep the population poor to sell more gems to convert. I really do think there are FAR more people with under 100g than over. The economy really does “feel” unbalanced.

“Sooper pooper sekret 4moola” oh come on now that was funny.

To think Anet would reduce reliance on gold is a big stretch, I believe it is the complete opposite. The more dependent players are on gold the better it is for Anet.

william dj.6953:

“Sooper pooper sekret 4moola” oh come on now that was funny.

To think Anet would reduce reliance on gold is a big stretch, I believe it is the complete opposite. The more dependent players are on gold the better it is for Anet.

Impending changes seem to support that notion.

munkiman.3068:

Schizo.1375:

Without the numbers that Anet most certainly won’t provide to us we can’t know which makes them more money. However I have given you reasons how they do make money off this. And we have both agreed that they do in fact make money off of this. The only way to make money off of this is by making hard to make gold in game. If they don’t make it hard, there is no money to be made here and there is no point in putting in the feature. They are a business. Everything they do is perfectly analyzed to make them money. All you have said is, that’s wrong because I don’t think its true. Please come up with any reason why there is a possibility this is wrong.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem
Look at the conversion rate history, that really should be enough to show that there are more transactions of Gold to Gems than the inverse. It also shows to some extent the wealth of the community. I can probably find several videos of people with 1000’s of gold buying gems to open 100’s of Black lion chests or some other such thing. I really don’t think there is a majority that buys gems with cash that anet is trying to keep the population poor to sell more gems to convert. I really do think there are FAR more people with under 100g than over. The economy really does “feel” unbalanced.

All this graph shows is that more people want gems (probably due to the recent month of sales). And as the price of gold per gem rises, it becomes more and more out of reach for players to buy with gold and becomes more justifiable to buy with cash.

Edit: And as I said earlier Anet wins both ways of conversion. Buy gems with cash, Anet makes more money. Buy gems with gold, removes more gold from the game and makes gem prices higher so more people buy with cash.

I’m also not arguing that the economy isn’t unbalanced. There are a few players who have more money than the average player will ever obtain within their time playing the game. The thing is is that the amount of gold that these people have does not affect the play of others so it doesn’t need correcting.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve made my suggestions. I’m not a trained economist so I grant that they might not be the best one. I’m doing my best here, but at the end of the day it’s not my responsibility to come up with a solution, I’m just presenting the problem as I see it, and it would be up to ANet to figure out a solution for it. I’m just concerned that it seems that currently they refuse to admit that there is a problem, as seems to be the case with many of you.
.

OK, so what benefit do you see to point out the same perceived problem over and over again, when you are unable to present or add to a solution that serves everybody?

By now you know that JS is reading both top topics in this forum, so he is aware of the issues you have. It seems right now, the TP and Economy are in a good place in his opinion, and he should know best. I am pretty sure, he is double checking his data , to see, if you have a good point. He asked for your input on how to optimize the system and adress the issues you have but your response is that you are unable to (no shame in that) and its his job.
But shouldnt you trust him then as well, that he is doing the utmost to please everybody and the status quo is the best one?

Ohoni.6057:

Fair enough, and if they can come up with a mechanism in which players could get some benefit to offset their losses, to go with a tax on their earnings, then I would be theoretically fine with that, I just don’t understand how that could work in a way that could not be exploited and result in an effective sink on earnings alone.

Assumption:
earnings = value received from selling an item in game.

Result:
Profit = Gain (earnings – cost of acquisition – taxes) – Loss (cost of acquisition + taxes – earnings)
Benefit to offset loss = Gains
15% tax on gains (and losses).
Taxes = gold sink on gains (and losses).

Assumption:
earnings = profit

Result:
Profit = Gain (earnings – cost of acquisition – taxes) – Loss (cost of acquisition + taxes – earnings)
Benefit to offset loss = Gains
15% tax on profit (gains and losses).
Taxes = gold sink on profit (gains and losses).

Theoretically, the trading post works as is under either assumption of earnings.

The difference in perception resides in the word “effective”.
Is 16% more effective as a gold sink than 15%? Yes.
Is 16% tax going to effect the amount of wealth accumulated by players flipping items? No.

The tax is the general margin for flipping items without a loss. The net result is a wider margin of equilibrium between buy and sell orders, on average, not a reduction in the general need or ability for flipping to occur for items.

LordByron.8369:

Its really hard to discuss with people denying facts….

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24714

Common tactic to derail topics…

You can easily spot peaks during any interview by anet revealing changes…
Obviusly people bought that much to equip their characters….

Rumor ran the price up. Once the facts came out a month later the price dropped and now everyone who “invested” when the price was inflated is having kittens because they aren’t going to make that killing that “everyone” keeps saying you can make on the TP. It took 24 hours for the price to nearly quadruple and now the price is only double after the sell off.

So now there’s confusion as to what will happen to the price of this item so players are holding their inventory hoping another spike. Of course any player who gets one from rune forging or salvaging is cashing in on the spike.

You would think that with supply small and prices relatively cheap that a money bags TP flipper could have snapped up supply nearly instantly. What you are really seeing there are players goaded into playing the TP (it’s easy money!), who blindly follow what gw2spidy, gw2tp or paid service dings as a “buying opportunity” and chased the price up.

LordByron.8369:

As we all said its all about RISK/REWARDS…
TP lacks risk…..

Really? I would say the listing fee alone presents a serious risk, along with selling your goods at too low below market value or pricing too high … or having Anet pull the rug under you for high demand low volume event items or introducing some bit of news to drive prices wild on speculation … lacks risk indeed.

In fact, in relative terms, I would say that getting gold from the TP presents the most risk of any gold making activity in the game. No other activity makes me pay a constant 5% fee for every opportunity to make money in it.

Some farms have had risk of bans go figure.

There you go again. I thought you were going to stop talking to me? You don’t live up to your words do you?

Tbh I am surprised you are getting so bold with the Codes of Conduct considering you openly admitted to breaching the ToS and their ability to look the other way is the only reason I can tell you haven’t be banned.

Btw I hope you realize you are doing the exact same thing you’re claiming I am doing.

Done ….15 chars

Essence Snow.3194:

Some farms have had risk of bans go figure.

The fact that people exploit unintended activity farming in the game does not make farming ‘risky’. You can argue semantics if you like but we all know that at a MINIMUM, my risk to make gold in the market is 5% … 5% than any other activity in the game. If anything, farming is the most risk free activity … i get the a high value for my goods, I never die gathering or zerging events, it’s super easy and efficient if you have a plan.

Playing the market has a significant, if not the most financial risk of any gold making activity in the game. Walls of text don’t change that.

I’m not really interested in arguing semantics. I’ll agree playing the tp has the most financial risk of gold making activities.

John Smith says its a tautology that rich people have an advantage at luxuries

Luxuries in GW2 arent real luxuries though, they are the main goals of the game. They are the only reward for playing the game after you have completed the map, and the goals that are supposed to keep people playing

The next problem is a problem of game design. An integral part of game design is rewarding people for winning the game, and rewarding them for playing the game in ways that enhance the experience.

The TP rewards people for not playing most of the game the way its intended to be played. In fact the whole pursuit of profit is generally destructive to the game as a whole. If you have a goal, spending your time doing anything but playing the TP is a waste of time. To be most effecient, you can probably mix playing the TP with doing whatever is currently the latest degenerative gold farm playstyle while you wait.

The idea of punishing the rich is irrelevant.

Anet has no problem punishing any player in the best interests of the game. They have done it repeatedly for the sake of the economy by nerfing various money farms, and actions they feel are too profitable. There is no reason to discuss whether anet should punish the rich if its in the best interest of the game, that ship has sailed long ago.

Now at the end of the day, as to the complete point of the OP and taxes, there really isnt good reason to believe taxes would help the situation, its most likely TP users would simply pass the taxes on to the consumer. The only real reason to increase trading post tax is to increase the maximum gold sink, but truth is it would probably effect everyone pretty evenly

Bunda.2691:

Come on, let’s be honest now. There is next to no risk flipping many items, for example many blue weapons and trinkets. Now, it’s not zero risk, and it may be a bit cumbersome, and you may have to wait a while, and the profit isn’t always that great, but there is essentially no risk. This might change if more people enter the market, but as yet many of these items can more or less be flipped risk free.

When I first tried flipping I made some mistakes and lost some gold. I read forums such as this one and I thought it must be really easy to earn gold. All I needed is just pick any item, jump in and flip it and I’ll have 1000g in no time!

Wrong! But that has always been the impression that people here give that is so easy to be filthy rich, just go play the TP and you are guaranteed profit! That is a lot of BS and gross exaggerations here and those persists even to this thread. Either that or most of you guys don’t even know what you are talking about.

Sure, you can reduce the risk by analyzing the market for a week before you jump in. But that would imply spending some time to invest now would it? So how can what this guy says be true and yet be effective?

Nike.2631:

Farming monsters creates coin as a function constrained by time.
Map completions creates coin as a function constrained by time.
Guild Missions creates coin as a function constrained by time.
Daily/Monthly metas creates coin as a function constrained by time.
Event completions creates coin as a function constrained by time.
Dungeon completions creates coin as a function constrained by time.
WvW ranking up creates coin as a function constrained by time.
Trading Post concentrates coin as a function constrained by how much coin you already have.

The other contradiction I noticed in this thread, is that you guys say rich people are hurting the market and making life miserable for so many poor people by raising prices everywhere. Now, if it is so easy to be rich by playing the TP, then why are there so many poor people?

All the techniques are learnt have been posted by free websites and forums like this one and many others that I am too lazy to list out:

http://www.guildwars2tradingpost.com/

The specific items to invest in may be secretive but they change based on market conditions anyway. But techniques themselves don’t usually change.

Therefore, this blame-the-rich-players thread is full of contradictions.

Schizo.1375:

Thank you for at least providing suggestions! Really appreciate this.

Other suggestions were provided. It’s just that everyone on the “opposing” side said no. Now don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with disagreeing or saying “no, that won’t work because x, y, zed”.

But it’s rather disingenuous to act like suggestions haven’t been raised til now.

On a different note, there are at least a few people that have agreed with the basic premise of the “nerf the tp” crowd for the sake of discussion. So, to continue that train of thought, for the sake of discussion: Instead of continually demanding suggestions of us, would those people consider maybe providing their own suggestions as well? I mean, it’s easy to just say “no that won’t work” to a suggestion. Why don’t you give us something to work with so actual discourse can occur?

To expand on that, to everyone who just flat out disagrees: What would it take for you to agree? That is: What changes would you find reasonable?

Please keep in mind though for this exercise: Keeping the status quo is not a valid suggestion. The idea is to find potential change that allows all parties to win on some level.

(On a different, different note: Thank you for at least acknowledging the existence of my suggestion, Schizo. Can I say how funny I find it that so many other people have gone on and on about how the “anti tp” crowd need to levy suggestions, and yet when one is brought forward, it gets ignored by all but yourself.)

Schizo.1375:

Now the problem with reducing the reliance on gold is that it, inadvertently, does affect the gem shop and converting gems to gold. Increasing drop rates of items means people get what they want without needing large amounts of gold which is good. But then what do people spend their gold on? If people aren’t spending gold for the items they need, they are saving more and more of it. This makes it easier to buy gems with gold and affects Anet’s profits.

I don’t believe this would be a problem simply because as it stands, flipping is miles above everything else in terms of a player obtaining gold. Events, etc. hardly pay out, and they’re about to take another nerf because of the change to armor repairs.

Gems are currently what? 9-10 gold for 100, right? Even with the best farming and dungeon running stratagems, that still takes a good while to get towards the general 800 gem price that everything tends to cost. Plus, in my scenario, the TP hasn’t been nerfed. People who have gold obtaining methods that pay out will still undoubtedly use the TP because gold is the main currency that they will use.

Remember, all that my scenario (sans the “if all else fails”) does is open up other currency routes for those players that can’t utilize the gold route. They won’t be making any more gold than they already do. Even if they start turning all their gold into gems, the rate will be so slow that it shouldn’t cause any more problems than tp flippers gathering the masses of gold that they do and turning that into gems.