Guild Wars 2

jazzllanna.1278:

When you use dragon timers or wiki does that effect other players though? Do you get a text message when a dragon is up because it is necessary? I realize that if this was to disappear it would cut deep into many pockets.. so I understand the defense. That said I still think that this should be a major issue that is looked into, or does arenanet just expect us to use the outside programs to use their trading post effectively? Was that the plan all along? Why not make a sticky then notifying all the players of these websites they need to sign up for so they can trade- without interfering with their game play, or watching tv, or whatever else they may be doing at the time so they know to log in and adjust their bids.

The only people who need to use the trading post “more effectively” are people who are trying to min/max their revenue. If you want to min/max your revenue, you need to put in the effort to research your market as well as use the tools that are available to protect your own investment.

The average player (me, most of the time) uses the TP as a way to clean out our inventory after a hard day of dungeon/fractal running, or questing with a friend/guildie. My concern is not to maximize my profit, but to get some profit with the least amount of work. Unless I know it is something valuable, I’m simply dumping inventory onto the TP at the current sell price (if it is profitable to do so). On the days when I do want to play the market for a while, I whip out my spreadsheets and history data and find ideal values.

Even if the notification tools were not available, the people who are babysitting their listings are always going to have an “advantage” over you because they have a vested interest in having an advantage and that advantage is simply that they care enough to monitor their listings. The only way you are going to be able to have a “level” field with these people is to do exactly what they do, which, if you don’t enjoy playing the market, you simply aren’t going to do.

Text or no text, if I want the item, I will outbid you. You are free to submit a counter bid, just as I’m free to counter your counter. It’s a lovely little price war until the other side gives up. When I win, I relist and you’re free to purchase at my sell price, or outbid my other offers for the same item.

The Black Lion Trading Company is a PvP environment. If you want to participate, be prepared. Competition is healthy for the economy after all.

If you had no text you could be offline when that overbid comes in.. unless you are online 24 hours a day watching. Just saying more people with knowledge could be the solution because enough hands in the pot will ruin it.

jazzllanna.1278:

I am not sure silence means that it is ok.. maybe they are just not sure how to handle it. I suppose though that if people using these programs had more competition that was aware of them and knew how to use them.. maybe it would be less of an issue- because lets face it there are players that want to learn to flip on the tp everyday and they want to know where to start. I think that a guide for new players would be good.. show them the ropes point them to how to get a text and how to outbid and undercut. Maybe then it would not be such an issue because it would be 100 people getting that text looking to overbid you by 1 copper to flip for profit than 1 person actually trying to buy the freaking item.

If you trust the claim of the gw2spidy owner, who got an ‘ok’ from them, using the same way to access the TP would be fine, by extension. It would have been easier if ArenaNet gives a more definitive answer but in the absence of it, we can only draw from the gw2spidy code as the “approved” way of doing this.

Annoying as it maybe though, undercutting and outbidding has always been an approved action on the TP, to that I am sure and it will remain a hallmark of using the TP for a long time to come.

I actually have no issue with undercutting and outbidding from players in game. I understand the market and how it works. My whole point was that these programs need to go because they are in fact outside programs that should not have to be used to use the trading post. Anyway this post seems to go no where because the only ones that answer are the ones that use the program and will defend them until the end. I know there are players out there that are unaware or just do not want to join the discussion, but I hope that anet sees the issue and is silently working to correct it.

jazzllanna.1278:

I actually have no issue with undercutting and outbidding from players in game. I understand the market and how it works. My whole point was that these programs need to go because they are in fact outside programs that should not have to be used to use the trading post. Anyway this post seems to go no where because the only ones that answer are the ones that use the program and will defend them until the end. I know there are players out there that are unaware or just do not want to join the discussion, but I hope that anet sees the issue and is silently working to correct it.

I don’t use them. I simply recognize why they are valuable to those who do and that they don’t appear to violate the TOS. Like I said, I’m mostly a junk vendor. My heyday of market control was back in WoW where it was really easy (since each server had its own economy).

jazzllanna.1278:

I actually have no issue with undercutting and outbidding from players in game. I understand the market and how it works. My whole point was that these programs need to go because they are in fact outside programs that should not have to be used to use the trading post. Anyway this post seems to go no where because the only ones that answer are the ones that use the program and will defend them until the end. I know there are players out there that are unaware or just do not want to join the discussion, but I hope that anet sees the issue and is silently working to correct it.

If these programs go, guess what would happen, more people would constantly check their bids to make sure they actually get the precursor or whatever high priced items that they want, instead of playing the game. Would encouraging such practice makes GW2 a better game? I seriously doubt that. I believe that people should be encouraged to play the game instead of chaining themselves to the TP at all times.

The whole point of this thread is that you don’t like outside tools that assist in game. That’s fine. But we’re telling you that it doesn’t matter, as players are still required to be in game to do something. So back to my counter argument – if I outbid you, it doesn’t matter what happens outside of the game. I still outbid you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The whole point of this thread is that you don’t like outside tools that assist in game. That’s fine. But we’re telling you that it doesn’t matter, as players are still required to be in game to do something. So back to my counter argument – if I outbid you, it doesn’t matter what happens outside of the game. I still outbid you.

Think you are missing the point…

Lets say as an example that we have two competing parties for one item, one of them have access to an automated tool that alerts him when he is overbid and the other has not.

Now assuming the alerted player updates his bid directly and that the other player manually updates his bids every 5 minutes.

In such a scenario the alerted player will have a greater coverage (ie. top bid) then the other player over a certain time frame.

Since we don’t know when someone will sell an item by using the highest buy order its more likely the alerted player will be able to get his buy order filled thus the alert tool have given him an advantage not present to the one who is simply using the game ui.

The easiest approach is ofcourse to add an outbid alert mechanism for any bids inside the game, however email notification wouldnt be acceptable due to the high level of over/under bids and instead youd need a new bidding/selling tab in the TP that shows the current state of all your listings imo.

No thank you. Some players would have thousands of alerts in game. Plus, the programming and running of such a program in game would eat up valuable resources better used elsewhere.

But for this topic, there is no point to miss. If you’re so concerned about not getting an item, you can camp the TP and refresh all the time. When I’m not PvEing or WvWing, I would sit at the TP and go through listings over and over, esp. on items I really want, but won’t pay full price. I don’t need an outside tool to help me with my bids. In fact, it’s more efficient to camp the TP than to have a text that alerts me of an outbid.

I am not concerned, I was just commenting on your statement which made the point that outside programs doesn’t matter which my example clearly exemplifies as a wrong statement.

Also if you have a few bids its might be quicker to rotate between them hitting refresh, but as you are coming up to more than a few that’s not true anymore. Also an alert allows you to go watch a movie and just pausing to outbid someone, clearly a more efficient use of the time (even if you are in game you save bid check time so I cant see how your gaming time would be more efficient without a tool).

Also alerts doesnt mean having email/popups it could be as simple as listing your orders in red in a TP listing UI.

Anyway I cant be bothered with these TP threads anymore, they all come down to one single thing and that is that the in game UI is very very poor.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No thank you. Some players would have thousands of alerts in game. Plus, the programming and running of such a program in game would eat up valuable resources better used elsewhere.

But for this topic, there is no point to miss. If you’re so concerned about not getting an item, you can camp the TP and refresh all the time. When I’m not PvEing or WvWing, I would sit at the TP and go through listings over and over, esp. on items I really want, but won’t pay full price. I don’t need an outside tool to help me with my bids. In fact, it’s more efficient to camp the TP than to have a text that alerts me of an outbid.

It is actually not more efficient to refresh the tp over an instant text- especially with multiple auctions.

jazzllanna.1278:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No thank you. Some players would have thousands of alerts in game. Plus, the programming and running of such a program in game would eat up valuable resources better used elsewhere.

But for this topic, there is no point to miss. If you’re so concerned about not getting an item, you can camp the TP and refresh all the time. When I’m not PvEing or WvWing, I would sit at the TP and go through listings over and over, esp. on items I really want, but won’t pay full price. I don’t need an outside tool to help me with my bids. In fact, it’s more efficient to camp the TP than to have a text that alerts me of an outbid.

It is actually not more efficient to refresh the tp over an instant text- especially with multiple auctions.

Well, for you maybe it would be more efficient to submit a bid that is high enough to warrant no competitive counter bids? That, or just buy for whatever the seller is asking for.

aeneq.1760:

Think you are missing the point…

Lets say as an example that we have two competing parties for one item, one of them have access to an automated tool that alerts him when he is overbid and the other has not.

You forgot that all the outside automated tools so far that we mentioned are free and available to everyone. It is no excuse to claim that they have no access to it because that is not true!

If the other party chooses not to use them then that is his loss, and shouldn’t be forcing his choice onto others. In others words, if I am too lazy to even look up the wiki or gw2spidy, I shouldn’t be forcing others not to look it up as well.

If you want a more specific example, download Zicore’s TP notifier app http://notifier.zicore.de/

It is free and open source but don’t say that you have no access to it because you know that is simply not true.

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

Think you are missing the point…

Lets say as an example that we have two competing parties for one item, one of them have access to an automated tool that alerts him when he is overbid and the other has not.

You forgot that all the outside automated tools so far that we mentioned are free and available to everyone. It is no excuse to claim that they have no access to it because that is not true!

If the other party chooses not to use them then that is his loss, and shouldn’t be forcing his choice onto others. In others words, if I am too lazy to even look up the wiki or gw2spidy, I shouldn’t be forcing others not to look it up as well.

If you want a more specific example, download Zicore’s TP notifier app http://notifier.zicore.de/

It is free and open source but don’t say that you have no access to it because you know that is simply not true.

Not sure what you are responding too, the example I wrote was a specific one to show the benefit of using a third party tool it had nothing todo with whether that tool is available to both parties or not (which wasn’t an disussion point in the post I made my reply to).

edit: and why should I use a program someone else wrote, its more fun writing it yourself

aeneq.1760:

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

Think you are missing the point…

Lets say as an example that we have two competing parties for one item, one of them have access to an automated tool that alerts him when he is overbid and the other has not.

You forgot that all the outside automated tools so far that we mentioned are free and available to everyone. It is no excuse to claim that they have no access to it because that is not true!

If the other party chooses not to use them then that is his loss, and shouldn’t be forcing his choice onto others. In others words, if I am too lazy to even look up the wiki or gw2spidy, I shouldn’t be forcing others not to look it up as well.

If you want a more specific example, download Zicore’s TP notifier app http://notifier.zicore.de/

It is free and open source but don’t say that you have no access to it because you know that is simply not true.

Not sure what you are responding too, the example I wrote was a specific one to show the benefit of using a third party tool it had nothing todo with whether that tool is available to both parties or not (which wasn’t an disussion point in the post I made my reply to).

edit: and why should I use a program someone else wrote, its more fun writing it yourself

The point is if everyone has access to the same programs/tools then nobody can claim that it is unfair that they do not have access to them.

There is no unfair advantage going on here. The only thing that is unfair would be that some people are more lazy than others. People who are too lazy to install/learn to use these tools themselves. They prefer to come in the forums just to complain about others, who have gained an advantage over them through due diligence.

If I can learn how to use Zicore’s tool, why can’t someone else? It is not as if only I have the special privileges to download it from his website because anyone can do the same.

DarkSpirit.7046:

…

The point is if everyone has access to the same programs/tools then nobody can claim that it is unfair that they do not have access to them.

There is no unfair advantage going on here. The only thing that is unfair would be that some people are more lazy than others. People who are too lazy to install/learn to use these tools themselves. They prefer to come in the forums just to complain about others, who have gained an advantage over them through due diligence.

If I can learn how to use Zicore’s tool, why can’t someone else? It is not as if only I have the special privileges to download it from his website because anyone can do the same.

I fully understand what you are saying but what you did when you made the reply is thread jacking, you totally jumped track with regards to my post. If you wanted to make this point again then you shouldnt have included my post, period.

aeneq.1760:

I fully understand what you are saying but what you did when you made the reply is thread jacking, you totally jumped track with regards to my post. If you wanted to make this point again then you shouldnt have included my post, period.

I don’t want to give people the wrong impression that your example seems to portray because of the words you chose for your made-up example. The tool for TP notification is available to everyone and there is no such thing as someone using it as an advantage over another due to differing level of access. This needs to be clarified.

Again people arguing that it’s allowed. I’ll copy and paste my answer from before. I’ll give you the TL; DR in advance: it’s not.

Use of these programs is governed by several instruments. I’ll include relevant sections from two of them, below, namely the User Agreement and the Third Party Program Policy.

User Agreement

1. Definitions
p) Service — Any online service provided by NCSOFT for the Game.
q) Software — Any software provided by NCSOFT related to the Game, including but not limited to software installed on a computer owned by You or someone else, along with any subsequent versions, enhancements, modifications, upgrades or patches to such software.
8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING NCSOFT
You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of NCSOFT, do any of the following:
(h) Use, or provide others with, any service related to the Game, including but not limited to:
- any service that interacts with the Software; or
[…]
(i) You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of NCSOFT, do any of the following:
- Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:
- software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;
- software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;
- software that redirects communications from any Software or Service; or
- software not provided by NCSOFT which creates or maintains any communication to the Software or Service, including but not limited to any software that emulates the Software or any part thereof as well as any server that emulates the Service or any part thereof;

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

Third Party Program policy

“Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed.”
“Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn’t use it?”
“Does this program allow someone to ‘play’ when he/she is not at the computer?”
“Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?”

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Policy-3rd-Party-Programs-Multi-Boxing-Macros

Trade post notifier

From Zicore’s website, although this service is not exclusively offered by Zicore, the notifier is described as follows:
It now also notifies, when you have sold or bought stuff. You also can enable notifications of transactions, when someone is over/under-cutting you.

Source: http://notifier.zicore.de/

You can be notified of being undercut in 2 ways: with, or without using your “session key”. If you use the session key, the notification is based on “live” information. If you don’t use the session key, you’ll be notified based on information from GW2 Spidy, which is “old”, cached information. People that download this program obviously want an edge over other traders, so one can safely presume they will use the session key to get live notifications.

Conclusion:

I believe the User Agreement and the Third Party Policy are crystal clear on this issue. Using the “session key” for live notifications of undercutting is a direct violation of User Agreement Rules 8 (h) and (i), as well as the Third Party Policy.

People that use a notifier create a huge advantage over players that don’t use a third party program. This a no-brainer any way you look at it.
The only possible reason I can think of why nothing is done to combat these clear violations, is that there is no way to enforce them.
Never issue a warning you can’t enforce. And since it can’t be enforced, no warning can be issued, either.

Nonetheless, unless and until the user agreement and third policy will be adjusted on this issue, and in the absence of Anet’s explicit approval, I’m staying away from these programs.

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

Think you are missing the point…

Lets say as an example that we have two competing parties for one item, one of them have access to an automated tool that alerts him when he is overbid and the other has not.

You forgot that all the outside automated tools so far that we mentioned are free and available to everyone. It is no excuse to claim that they have no access to it because that is not true!

If the other party chooses not to use them then that is his loss, and shouldn’t be forcing his choice onto others. In others words, if I am too lazy to even look up the wiki or gw2spidy, I shouldn’t be forcing others not to look it up as well.

If you want a more specific example, download Zicore’s TP notifier app http://notifier.zicore.de/

It is free and open source but don’t say that you have no access to it because you know that is simply not true.

Not sure what you are responding too, the example I wrote was a specific one to show the benefit of using a third party tool it had nothing todo with whether that tool is available to both parties or not (which wasn’t an disussion point in the post I made my reply to).

edit: and why should I use a program someone else wrote, its more fun writing it yourself

The point is if everyone has access to the same programs/tools then nobody can claim that it is unfair that they do not have access to them.

There is no unfair advantage going on here. The only thing that is unfair would be that some people are more lazy than others. People who are too lazy to install/learn to use these tools themselves. They prefer to come in the forums just to complain about others, who have gained an advantage over them through due diligence.

If I can learn how to use Zicore’s tool, why can’t someone else? It is not as if only I have the special privileges to download it from his website because anyone can do the same.

You could say exactly the same thing about a botting program.

TooBz.3065:

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

Think you are missing the point…

Lets say as an example that we have two competing parties for one item, one of them have access to an automated tool that alerts him when he is overbid and the other has not.

You forgot that all the outside automated tools so far that we mentioned are free and available to everyone. It is no excuse to claim that they have no access to it because that is not true!

If the other party chooses not to use them then that is his loss, and shouldn’t be forcing his choice onto others. In others words, if I am too lazy to even look up the wiki or gw2spidy, I shouldn’t be forcing others not to look it up as well.

If you want a more specific example, download Zicore’s TP notifier app http://notifier.zicore.de/

It is free and open source but don’t say that you have no access to it because you know that is simply not true.

Not sure what you are responding too, the example I wrote was a specific one to show the benefit of using a third party tool it had nothing todo with whether that tool is available to both parties or not (which wasn’t an disussion point in the post I made my reply to).

edit: and why should I use a program someone else wrote, its more fun writing it yourself

The point is if everyone has access to the same programs/tools then nobody can claim that it is unfair that they do not have access to them.

There is no unfair advantage going on here. The only thing that is unfair would be that some people are more lazy than others. People who are too lazy to install/learn to use these tools themselves. They prefer to come in the forums just to complain about others, who have gained an advantage over them through due diligence.

If I can learn how to use Zicore’s tool, why can’t someone else? It is not as if only I have the special privileges to download it from his website because anyone can do the same.

You could say exactly the same thing about a botting program.

Exactly!

Off topic: Darkspirit, why would you use Zicore when you created your own TP program, which you earlier stated has more functionalities and works better than Zicore?

Buttercup.5871:

Exactly!

Off topic: Darkspirit, why would you use Zicore when you created your own TP program, which you earlier stated has more functionalities and works better than Zicore?

I have used both of course. If Zicore’s TP notifier violates their rules then why didn’t ArenaNet say so when we asked them? Besides, the way we did is the same way as how gw2spidy got the data and how did the owner of gw2spidy get the approval from them then? Are you saying that gw2spidy with its history charts, crafting cost calculations, and data does not provide any extra advantage to a user at all?

I don’t believe your interpretation of their rules is correct. Afterall, gw2spidy has their blessings and we use the same methods to access the TP. However, I would believe ArenaNet staff if they come forward and explicitly say that gw2spidy or Zicore’s TP notifier are not allowed. Zicore was seeking the same answers.

Also, we have been down this road before many times, Buttercup. In the end, we didn’t get any confirmation from them and no conclusions. I don’t see any difference in the things that you brought now versus last time. Are you sure you want to go down this same path again?

AFAI remember, there was never an official statement on these kind of tools from ANet. Ruben (gw2spidy) did get a response from a dev when he submitted a question to them and the response I believe was more in the line of “Not an official API, use at your own risk, no support offered” and not an official approval of the tools and the use of the API.

I have been trying to find the reference but am having a hard time doing so, I was sure Ruben linked it on the gw2spidy page but if he did its not there anymore.

Would be great if someone could post a link to it…

aeneq.1760:

AFAI remember, there was never an official statement on these kind of tools from ANet. Ruben (gw2spidy) did get a response from a dev when he submitted a question to them and the response I believe was more in the line of “Not an official API, use at your own risk, no support offered” and not an official approval of the tools and the use of the API.

I have been trying to find the reference but am having a hard time doing so, I was sure Ruben linked it on the gw2spidy page but if he did its not there anymore.

Would be great if someone could post a link to it…

I was expecting more like a “This violates our Terms Of Service! Please do not do that!” response from ArenaNet if it was a disapproval. Clearly this shows that ArenaNet doesn’t mind Reuben to go ahead, but expect no technical support from them, which is fine. It sounds like an ‘ok’ from them, to me.

Furthermore, after informing ArenaNet on what he was going to do and he did it, did they punish him in any way? No and gw2spidy has been around for almost a year now and obviously he needs a valid gw2 account to connect to the TP and run the site. What does that mean?

Similarly, many months ago, Zicore and I posted on this forum and informed ArenaNet on what we were doing and promised to stop the work if ArenaNet disapproves. Did anything happen to our accounts? Nope. He is still developing his app and improving on it: http://notifier.zicore.de/ What does this mean?

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

AFAI remember, there was never an official statement on these kind of tools from ANet. Ruben (gw2spidy) did get a response from a dev when he submitted a question to them and the response I believe was more in the line of “Not an official API, use at your own risk, no support offered” and not an official approval of the tools and the use of the API.

I have been trying to find the reference but am having a hard time doing so, I was sure Ruben linked it on the gw2spidy page but if he did its not there anymore.

Would be great if someone could post a link to it…

I was expecting more like a “This violates our Terms Of Service! Please do not do that!” response from ArenaNet if it was a disapproval. Clearly this shows that ArenaNet doesn’t mind Reuben to go ahead, but expect no technical support from them, which is fine. It sounds like an ‘ok’ from them, to me.

Not necessarily, devs doesnt make such statements unless they have internal directives and guidelines in the matter. The statement can be read in many ways I however always interpreted it as Sure go ahead but we dont have an internal opinion on the matter yet so we might disallow it at any time.

One can view their lack of response on the matter (there have been several attempts for a more official statement from ANet) as a silent go ahead, probably due to the poor in game experience while they are working on updates.

However I myself believe that they simply don’t want to change the existing API due to complexity reasons (given that this would change/modify a core functionality of the game). Since there is no way to stop a program using this API instead of disallowing it and thereby forcing this to be used by a select few (personal developer/usage) they allow it to be open “silently” for the masses.

However that’s just my speculation, the API has been as it is form the beginning (small changes) and the 3rd party tools has been around for close to a year now with no change/opinion from ANet and I doubt anything will change soon.

aeneq.1760:

Not necessarily, devs doesnt make such statements unless they have internal directives and guidelines in the matter. The statement can be read in many ways I however always interpreted it as Sure go ahead but we dont have an internal opinion on the matter yet so we might disallow it at any time.

Well if they say “Sure go ahead..” doesn’t that sound like a approval at least at this point in time? If they change their minds later, and they are very much entitled to do that, then we would stop our work. At the meantime, they have not shown any indications that they have disapproved despite what Buttercup said, which was my point all along.

Back in the days of GW1, they took the same stance with a program call Textmod. They declared that they don’t offer any technical support for it but they don’t stop or punish people from using it either so use it at your own risk. Many Textmod modules have been created for GW1 and distributed freely on the Internet, even on the official wiki to this day.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Textmod

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

Not necessarily, devs doesnt make such statements unless they have internal directives and guidelines in the matter. The statement can be read in many ways I however always interpreted it as Sure go ahead but we dont have an internal opinion on the matter yet so we might disallow it at any time.

Well if they say “Sure go ahead..” doesn’t that sound like a approval at least at this point in time? If they change their minds later, and they are very much entitled to do that, then we would stop our work. At the meantime, they have not shown any indications that they have disapproved despite what Buttercup said, which was my point all along.

Back in the days of GW1, they took the same stance with a program call Texmod. They declared that they don’t offer any technical support for it but they don’t stop or punish people from using it either. Many Texmod modules have been created for GW1 and distributed freely on the Internet, even on the official wiki.

My point was that a single dev doesnt make official policy and from what I know there has been none, a lack of response is not the same thing as approval. But given their unresponsiveness we at least can go forward until something changes…

aeneq.1760:

Well if they say “Sure go ahead..” doesn’t that sound like a approval at least at this point in time? If they change their minds later, and they are very much entitled to do that, then we would stop our work. At the meantime, they have not shown any indications that they have disapproved despite what Buttercup said, which was my point all along.

Back in the days of GW1, they took the same stance with a program call Texmod. They declared that they don’t offer any technical support for it but they don’t stop or punish people from using it either. Many Texmod modules have been created for GW1 and distributed freely on the Internet, even on the official wiki.

My point was that a single dev doesnt make official policy and from what I know there has been none, a lack of response is not the same thing as approval. But given their unresponsiveness we at least can go forward until something changes…
[/quote]

I think you just mentioned in another thread that bots could use these programs to be active in the trading post.. to me that is a huge red flag that they need to be discontinued or altered in some way.

jazzllanna.1278:

I think you just mentioned in another thread that bots could use these programs to be active in the trading post.. to me that is a huge red flag that they need to be discontinued or altered in some way.

They can be modified to be automated tools yes, that said its limited to putting in buy orders (i.e. overbidding and cancelling buy orders if they want to put in lower bids).

However I also stated that there is no easy way to block this behavior at present, the functionality is a core component of the in game Trading Post and I don’t believe ANet will modify this API anytime soon.

The only quick solution is behavioral analysis on identified traders who has a high/constant/changing buy listings. But even then it becomes a bit tricky and bots can be programmed to be more human like (with lower profit, but if you spread this over multiple accounts they would still be able to accrue the same profit as before).

I agree with everything you say. I think that in the end it will have to be addressed by Anet because fact of the matter is, if bots can do it they probably are and it will only spread.

jazzllanna.1278:

I think you just mentioned in another thread that bots could use these programs to be active in the trading post.. to me that is a huge red flag that they need to be discontinued or altered in some way.

Yes in the sense that Zicore’s TP notifier program is open source. But he kept it open source not because he wanted to share his source code with bot authors, he shared it as a learning tool for people who wants to create similar programs. Similarly for gw2spidy code which is also open source. You also dont have to download his binary if you don’t trust it, you can build it yourself from his source code. Besides bot authors can come up with similar routines on their own anyway. I don’t think there is any code in there that is ‘revolutionary’ if you know what I mean. The code is quite straightforward.

I understand that many of these external programs are in a ‘grey’ area because they give an advantage. Even for gw2spidy, you would be hard pressed (if not impossible) to justify that it doesn’t give its users any trading advantage at all when I have come to rely on its data for big trading decisions regularly. In the end, it is up to you if you feel comfortable to use these tools or not. However, since ArenaNet itself has not stopped anyone from using them yet, I don’t think we are in any position to force our choice onto others.

So basically
Bots out in PVE killing stuff- bad and banned
Bots in the TP- Grey and ok

Bots out in PvE are an actual danger to the economy. They generate gold and thus put casual players at a disadvantage due to the inflation they cause.

Bots in the TP (I’m not sure if they have these or not, but the concept is plausible) are still a violation of the TOS, but they are not harming the economy (directly, at any rate) nor are they harming casuals, so they are a much lower priority on the list of things to spend limited resouces fixing list. Botting on the TP is not the same thing as automatic notifications though because the notifications still require you to log in and manually take action in game. They are not automating any in game process, they are simply telling you that you should log in.

jazzllanna.1278:

Bots in the TP- Grey and ok

If you are referring to Zicore’s TP notifier as a bot then you are sorely mistaken. Especially considering the fact that his app is open source and he has declared it to ArenaNet who has chosen not to punish him in anyway. If it is a bot, then don’t you think that ArenaNet would have recognized it before you do?

I can understand your desire to win an argument, but please do not defer to lies to do so. Especially by stooping to tarnish the name of someone who has contributed almost a year of his hard work for free to the community.

Not referring to any app specifically but just by the comments in this thread you can infer that a bot program for the tp to flip products is possible and at this point not against the rules because it has never been explicitly stated that programs for the tp are not against the rules.

Nothing I said has been a lie btw. I have never named any programs by name at all, I am just pointing out the fact they do exist and they can be used to extremes.

jazzllanna.1278:

Not referring to any app specifically but just by the comments in this thread you can infer that a bot program for the tp to flip products is possible and at this point not against the rules because it has never been explicitly stated that programs for the tp are not against the rules.

Nothing I said has been a lie btw. I have never named any programs by name at all, I am just pointing out the fact they do exist and they can be used to extremes.

I did not say that bots should be allowed. If you have really been following this thread, you should not have to stoop to lies to make your case. If you can only read the title, we are talking about programs like Zicore’s TP notifier, not bots. Do you feel the need to reset this argument and make up words in order to win?

If you insist on lying that I said bots should be allowed and not against the rules, then I see no point in continuing this thread with you.

What lies? And as the thread progressed, as is the case with most discussions, new views and ideas came out. I started by stating that getting text for the tp from an outside program is wrong. Another person stated that they could be used by bots, I agree and it strengthens my case that these programs should not be allowed.

jazzllanna.1278:

What lies? And as the thread progressed, as is the case with most discussions, new views and ideas came out. I started by stating that getting text for the tp from an outside program is wrong. Another person stated that they could be used by bots, I agree and it strengthens my case that these programs should not be allowed.

By that same argument we shouldn’t even be allowed to log in to the game because being logged in can be used by bots.

Notifiers and Bots are about as far apart as possible when it comes to function. One lets you know when you should play the game, the other plays the game for you.

jazzllanna.1278:

What lies? And as the thread progressed, as is the case with most discussions, new views and ideas came out. I started by stating that getting text for the tp from an outside program is wrong. Another person stated that they could be used by bots, I agree and it strengthens my case that these programs should not be allowed.

I have flagged your post to the moderator as a flame bait as obviously you are going on a tangent. What you said is definitely not what happened. You are trying to draw a flame war.

I have never said bots should be allowed. If you keep insisting in your lies that I said that then I will ignore you and flag you as a troll from now on. Good luck winning the argument by debating with yourself.

Really? I am by no means trying to start a flame war. I have a serious concern with these programs.

Just to add to your edit- I never said that you said that bots should be allowed. It has been stated from people on both sides pro and con on the programs that they could be used to bot the tp. That is a huge concern and it should be for both sides of the argument. If a gold seller can go unnoticed trading on the tp with a program and rake in tons of gold is this not a problem? It may nor may not be happening but it could be. Please understand, because I think you may have misunderstood, I am by no means attacking you in anyway. My issue is with the programs, which I know you are for, but I am not against you.

Hello everybody
Please keep this conversation constructive and healthy. Thank you for your understanding.

DarkSpirit.7046:

…

Slight overreaction IMO, the only time that specific notifier was mentioned was by you in an earlier post and this thread has never been about a specific tool so calling out for name tarnishing etc is extreme (BTW maybe you should stop referencing that tool all the time, there are other ones out there and you don’t bring anything to the discussion when naming specific tools).

The mistake here is the cross reference from the other thread which could cause confusion. To be clear I doubt ANet would consider notifiers bots, they are in the more advanced cases in violation of the TOS but probably not severe enough to warrant any action from ANet.

The point made by me earlier was that any notifier tool is just a small step away from being modified for full automation. But that said this thread was about notifiers…

jazzllanna.1278:

What lies? And as the thread progressed, as is the case with most discussions, new views and ideas came out. I started by stating that getting text for the tp from an outside program is wrong. Another person stated that they could be used by bots, I agree and it strengthens my case that these programs should not be allowed.

Since you’re so adamant about continuing this discussion, let me ask you something. Since the Trading Post is website based, how do you ban programs that basically reads information from a website (i.e. crawler)? Mind you that these types of programs are not accessing the game client itself. Going further, how would you ban a program that gets its information from another program such as Spidy? Spidy is just reading the information from a website, and the other program is just reading Spidy.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

jazzllanna.1278:

What lies? And as the thread progressed, as is the case with most discussions, new views and ideas came out. I started by stating that getting text for the tp from an outside program is wrong. Another person stated that they could be used by bots, I agree and it strengthens my case that these programs should not be allowed.

Since you’re so adamant about continuing this discussion, let me ask you something. Since the Trading Post is website based, how do you ban programs that basically reads information from a website (i.e. crawler)? Mind you that these types of programs are not accessing the game client itself. Going further, how would you ban a program that gets its information from another program such as Spidy? Spidy is just reading the information from a website, and the other program is just reading Spidy.

Not quite true, in order for anyone to read accurate TP data a character key is needed, this key is datamined from the connection between game client and TP server. You also have an authentication mechanism involving the associated account.

So none of the information on spidy etc is “publicly” available and the means to access this data breaks the TOS which is why they (spidy et al) contacted ANet before continuing with their projects.

aeneq.1760:

DarkSpirit.7046:

…

Slight overreaction IMO, the only time that specific notifier was mentioned was by you in an earlier post and this thread has never been about a specific tool so calling out for name tarnishing etc is extreme (BTW maybe you should stop referencing that tool all the time, there are other ones out there and you don’t bring anything to the discussion when naming specific tools).

Again, no I did not say that bots should be allowed. If you think that I did, anyone is free to point that out.

I can understand the need to win the argument especially when it is ending in my favor, but you guys should not have to resort to lies and libel. Please do not create words out of thin air and pretend that I said it. It just shows the kind of person you are.

aeneq.1760:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

jazzllanna.1278:

What lies? And as the thread progressed, as is the case with most discussions, new views and ideas came out. I started by stating that getting text for the tp from an outside program is wrong. Another person stated that they could be used by bots, I agree and it strengthens my case that these programs should not be allowed.

Since you’re so adamant about continuing this discussion, let me ask you something. Since the Trading Post is website based, how do you ban programs that basically reads information from a website (i.e. crawler)? Mind you that these types of programs are not accessing the game client itself. Going further, how would you ban a program that gets its information from another program such as Spidy? Spidy is just reading the information from a website, and the other program is just reading Spidy.

Not quite true, in order for anyone to read accurate TP data a character key is needed, this key is datamined from the connection between game client and TP server. You also have an authentication mechanism involving the associated account.

So none of the information on spidy etc is “publicly” available and the means to access this data breaks the TOS which is why they (spidy et al) contacted ANet before continuing with their projects.

In order to continue, it’s been said that Anet has no problem with Spidy accessing the data and sharing it. Spidy in turn releases an API that grants access to Spidy’s data. Someone comes up with a program and uses the data from Spidy to give alerts.

So where is the problem here?

DarkSpirit.7046:

aeneq.1760:

DarkSpirit.7046:

…

Slight overreaction IMO, the only time that specific notifier was mentioned was by you in an earlier post and this thread has never been about a specific tool so calling out for name tarnishing etc is extreme (BTW maybe you should stop referencing that tool all the time, there are other ones out there and you don’t bring anything to the discussion when naming specific tools).

Again, no I did not say that bots should be allowed. If you think that I did, anyone is free to point that out.

I can understand the need to win the argument especially when it is ending in my favor, but you guys should not have to resort to lies and libel. Please do not create words out of thin air and pretend that I said it. It just shows the kind of person you are.

Don’t know where you are getting the idea that I specifically said that anyone thought bots were ok, I have not seen any such indication in any of your posts. If you are inferring this meaning from my posts then I have no idea why that is the case.

And I have said nothing to directly tarnish/slight you as a person so why are you responding in that manner? Please keep discussions civil…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

…

In order to continue, it’s been said that Anet has no problem with Spidy accessing the data and sharing it. Spidy in turn releases an API that grants access to Spidy’s data. Someone comes up with a program and uses the data from Spidy to give alerts.

So where is the problem here?

Again not quite true… but I’ll get to that shortly…

• ANet has no official policy in regards of scraping the TP data, kitten far no action has been taken and they “unofficially” most likely have their blessing.
• Alerts based of Spidys data (or others) are not in violation of the current TOS (Spidy is however if one reads the TOS in its formal def.)

What should be noted is this;

• Notifiers usually dont operate on Spidys data since they need access to character/account information.
• Notifiers datamines GW2 session information and are thus in violation of the TOS just as Spidy is but even more so since actual character information is accessed (buy/sell listings).

I Dont have anything against notifiers!

I am however a stickler for details and dont like misinformation being spread just by assumption. Better to have all the details, things arent usually as clear cut as people want them to be.

aeneq.1760:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

…

In order to continue, it’s been said that Anet has no problem with Spidy accessing the data and sharing it. Spidy in turn releases an API that grants access to Spidy’s data. Someone comes up with a program and uses the data from Spidy to give alerts.

So where is the problem here?

Again not quite true… but I’ll get to that shortly…

• ANet has no official policy in regards of scraping the TP data, kitten far no action has been taken and they “unofficially” most likely have their blessing.
• Alerts based of Spidys data (or others) are not in violation of the current TOS (Spidy is however if one reads the TOS in its formal def.)

What should be noted is this;

• Notifiers usually dont operate on Spidys data since they need access to character/account information.
• Notifiers datamines GW2 session information and are thus in violation of the TOS just as Spidy is but even more so since actual character information is accessed (buy/sell listings).

I Dont have anything against notifiers!

I am however a stickler for details and dont like misinformation being spread just by assumption. Better to have all the details, things arent usually as clear cut as people want them to be.

Since I don’t have any notifiers, I don’t know what programs they work off of. I’m basing my argument on the example of Spidy’s API.

To clarify, a notifier that reads game session data is bad, but one that read’s Spidy’s data is ok?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

…
Since I don’t have any notifiers, I don’t know what programs they work off of. I’m basing my argument on the example of Spidy’s API.

To clarify, a notifier that reads game session data is bad, but one that read’s Spidy’s data is ok?

With regards to the TOS yes.

Using the data Spidy has gathered doesnt violate the TOS, gathering the data yourself does.

edit: that said I doubt ANet would act on the violation as long as in game mechanics arent automated