Guild Wars 2

HHR LostProphet.4801:

It’s really simple. Who profits the most from the stock exchange? A normal worker or the affluent businessmen?

everything u say makes u sound more and more jelly.

I’ll answer your question with another. Who should make more money, the person actively involved with the stock market or someone who maybe dabbles in it?

Just because you dont see the work involved doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I think u saw the wolf of wall street and thought “This is just like those evil TP barons, grrrr im so jelly” (Dibs on Jonah Hills character)

The Tp changes all the time, dungeons don’t. How can you say more skill is needed to run a dungeon?

Bigger Than Dave.7426:

The Tp changes all the time, dungeons don’t. How can you say more skill is needed to run a dungeon?

Can you solo a dungeon? I think so, since it requires not that much skill, or does it?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ryan.9387:

So….

“I’m too lazy to make money off the TP so please nerf the TP for the players motivated enough to profit from it.”

So… sitting back watch those number at the TP while you make money standing around is a legitimate way to make the most money in this game?

Yes because TP flipping is so easy that all you have to do is sit in front of the TP and it just throws money at you… This is why people just laugh at you and ignore these suggestions.

It takes hours and hours and hours of research, building spreadsheets, watching trends over WEEKS and placing tons of orders to make a large amount of money on the TP.

You’re saying that standing in a corner and spamming 1 should make more money then hours of research, tracking multiple spreadsheets and discovering patterns and trends over weeks of work?

If this is your GW2 experience you should try a stock exchange simulator or even try your best at the real stock exchange. GuildWars 2 however is no stock exchange simulator, stock exchange should not be a thing in GW2. Period.

So we’ve gone full circle to “play how I want you to play”.

If the TP mini-game was gone, there’d be one less “activity” for some players… who would move on.

And why’s it just flippers (assuming the term’s being used correctly) that are causing the problem?

What if it’s people like me who are (or was till a couple weeks ago) buying up all the unwanted major sigils and flushing them down the mystic toilet? Do we need to nerf the mystic toilet because I was causing the price of these sigils to go up short-term?

Introspective moment was just triggered…

What about those who buy up containers like Supply Sacks, open them, and list the contents as individual items on the TP? Those folks cause a short-term price increase on the bags. On top of that, this whole trade causes zergs of poaching adventurers to continue the hostility to the centaurs in Harathi Hinterland! The murderers show up with frightening regularity… it’s almost as if there’s a schedule!

Given some of the demand-driven price fluctuation in the poultry market; I HAVE noticed an otherwise not-present desire to farm raptors in rapid succession! When I drop a few dozen on the TP below current ask and it disappears in minutes, I am struck by an overwhelming urge to farm more of these regal creatures! What’s worse, this cycle of death=profit leads me to even think “OMG, the hatchlings yield even MORE FASTER than the adults!” Barbarism (or maybe “Ele-mism”, since I am not a Warrior) I had not noticed till OP.

The ecto market creates a demand for rares – those evil people on both the buyer and seller side cause the price to stay at or near the same for rare armor. Young characters just approaching their prime have to run into this price-fixing scheme RIGHT when they need gear most. If they can’t afford it, they have to use substandard green gear and are much more likely to DIE as a result!!!! WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN! Oh, and that green gear? There are some like me who without regard for the well-being of these young characters BUY TONS OF THAT, TOO, for purposes of mystic flushing for the aforementioned rares!

UGH! I BUY AXES, PICKS, AND SICKLES FOR PLANTS and sell nature’s bounty! TYRIA HAS BECOME MY ATM!!!

OMG, OP has enlightened me! The entire trading post not only needs to have FLIPPING removed; REMOVE ALL TRADE NAO! IT DOES NOTHING BUT FURTHER THE KILLING!

It’s a neverending cycle of disregard and not thinking about the collective and I’m now convinced you are right – nerf or remove all forms of commerce… for the children!

Stop trying to guilt trip flippers guys.

It’s not working one bit :P

I haven’t done a dungeon and I don’t flip. Once you have a dungeon path down pat that is, to my understanding, easily repeatable. Flipping is always changing. Dungeon v ai, Flipping v actual people. They both require skill albeit very different ones.

Vol.7601:

Stop trying to guilt trip flippers guys.

It’s not working one bit :P

And that’s the kind of me-first-ness capitalist swine-hood that’s causing all the problems in Tyria. Hope you’re proud of yourself.

I heard Mordremoth hates free trade. You people keep up all this unbrindled capitalism and he may rise up to smite us all!!!!11One

Edit: So sayeth the wise Alaundo…. wait, wrong lore.

Bigger Than Dave.7426:

I haven’t done a dungeon and I don’t flip. Once you have a dungeon path down pat that is, to my understanding, easily repeatable. Flipping is always changing. Dungeon v ai, Flipping v actual people. They both require skill albeit very different ones.

If it’s that easy why are not more people selling paths? Or why do people buy dungeonpaths in the frist place?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Bigger Than Dave.7426:

I haven’t done a dungeon and I don’t flip. Once you have a dungeon path down pat that is, to my understanding, easily repeatable. Flipping is always changing. Dungeon v ai, Flipping v actual people. They both require skill albeit very different ones.

If it’s that easy why are not more people selling paths? Or why do people buy dungeonpaths in the frist place?

How many people are selling paths?

Each time I read this exact thread, I want to either cry or laugh.

Part A.

Flippers never generate gold, so they are not the reason of inflation as you state.

Each time a flipper completes a transaction, 15% of in-game gold disappears. A flipper never creates gold – he merely redistributes it, and in the process a) stabilizes markets by closing gaps between demand and supply prices and b) provides a large stock of materials for players who want them NOOOOW!!!11 and can pay more than it’s worth. And again, the more a “rich” flipper pays for an item (“because they can” – as you state) they want to keep, the more money they drain from economy.

Each time a farmer runs a dungeon or someone completes a temple in Arah, new gold comes into the game out of thin air. Surprise – it’s you who’re causing inflation and making things “more expensive”!

The only reason why flippers exist is people who’re too lazy to manage their resources efficiently, and by this leave large enough gaps to be profitable even with the 15% margin. People who’re sacrificing their profit to save time (so called “players of the game”) are balanced by people who’re sacrificing their time to get money (so called “flippers”), simple as that.

Part B.

If you think it’s that easy, do it and get rich. Popular markets are discovered and collapse in no time due to increase in people who want fast money, thus really profitable unknown markets are finite and require knowledge and time to deal with. This is proved by an example of things mentioned in Egg Baron’s skillpoint-to-gold spreadsheet being far less profitable than those which are unknown to masses.

If you can’t do it but say that it’s “cheap”, “cheesy”, “not part of the game” and so on, you should read about what scrub is, think about it hard and stop saying things which make other people think bad things about you.

If it is in the game, use it. If you can’t, don’t complain. If you can but don’t like it, deal with it.

Nobody gets 1000g a day every day. If you believe the stories braggarts tell then you don’t realize you are being trolled. Just as players who drop precursor tags into their chats after boss events so it seems they got a precursor while you got two rares and a handful of greens. There isn’t the volume to sustain 1000g a day. A 1000g windfall sure but repeatable steady income, no.

You can make a lot of money infrequently, a little money frequently but not a lot of money frequently by flipping. The big payouts come from speculating and guessing right and knowing when to get out.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Bigger Than Dave.7426:

I haven’t done a dungeon and I don’t flip. Once you have a dungeon path down pat that is, to my understanding, easily repeatable. Flipping is always changing. Dungeon v ai, Flipping v actual people. They both require skill albeit very different ones.

If it’s that easy why are not more people selling paths? Or why do people buy dungeonpaths in the frist place?

If TP flipping is so easy to make 1000g a day, why arent more people doing it?

Without TP flipping, a lot of people would leave the game, even more I should add, since most of us TP flippers beat the game to the max which includes getting a legendary. Without TP flipping it would be like 3 times harder to get a legendary too. May I also add that people get TIRED of grinding dungeons all day, and EoTM no matter how rewarding it is, also gets tiring at one point. So if you want to remove TP flipping, you’re asking for more than half the players to leave.

Behellagh.1468:

Flippers can only raise the price over the long run if they can control supply. Since it’s been shown that it’s impossible even for low supply/high demand items like precursors, blaming them is simply incorrect.

I dont’ blame the flippers, I blame Anet.

They keep releasing limited edition items. Or re-release limited edition items to crash price. And “change” the price of crafting material every patch to their liking. The games economy is too dependent on crafting material etc. So any patch which change the demand for crafting material will make it sky rocket.

That being said. There is also the good part about flipping. Which is the game is “really” grindy if you chase those carrots(eg skins) without flipping. And investing helps bypass inflation, so instead of holding gold, do long term investment on items.

KarateKid.5648:

Vol.7601:

Stop trying to guilt trip flippers guys.

It’s not working one bit :P

And that’s the kind of me-first-ness capitalist swine-hood that’s causing all the problems in Tyria. Hope you’re proud of yourself.

I heard Mordremoth hates free trade. You people keep up all this unbrindled capitalism and he may rise up to smite us all!!!!11One

Edit: So sayeth the wise Alaundo…. wait, wrong lore.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m57rgaEIcp1qefkujo2_500.gif

Vol.7601:

KarateKid.5648:

Vol.7601:

Stop trying to guilt trip flippers guys.

It’s not working one bit :P

And that’s the kind of me-first-ness capitalist swine-hood that’s causing all the problems in Tyria. Hope you’re proud of yourself.

I heard Mordremoth hates free trade. You people keep up all this unbrindled capitalism and he may rise up to smite us all!!!!11One

Edit: So sayeth the wise Alaundo…. wait, wrong lore.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m57rgaEIcp1qefkujo2_500.gif

Shouldn’t those be coins? That’d hurt, granted, but still…

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

Flippers can only raise the price over the long run if they can control supply. Since it’s been shown that it’s impossible even for low supply/high demand items like precursors, blaming them is simply incorrect.

…And “change” the price of crafting material every patch to their liking. The games economy is too dependent on crafting material etc…

Screenshot or it didn’t happen.

If only I knew how to photoshop or make .gifs ;(

But I have no time…cause IM FLIPPING!

KarateKid.5648:

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

Flippers can only raise the price over the long run if they can control supply. Since it’s been shown that it’s impossible even for low supply/high demand items like precursors, blaming them is simply incorrect.

…And “change” the price of crafting material every patch to their liking. The games economy is too dependent on crafting material etc…

Screenshot or it didn’t happen.

I mean for example ascended armor sky rocket the price of silk. etc. Basically flippers flip crafting material because price do change a lot. Or for example people stock up crafting material for festival of the four winds.

All I’m saying is the price of crafting material fluctuate a lot, which give flippers “chance” to flip items. If price are actually stable, flippers dont’ have the chance right?

cranked.3812:

Rozbuska.5263:

Good idea but dont forget Anet guys are from Murica – the country where ppl still belive free market is best solution for economics:-)

A free market is the best solution for economics, the problem is too many people believe what we have now is a free market, but it isn’t.

This is 100% true. As an econ student in undergrad, the equilibria derived from supply and demand create a good situation for everyone involved if that point is maintained relatively well.. but there are some issues. Perfect competition involves thousands of sellers selling identical goods, and thats true for many of the materials in gw2, like ore or silk or whatnot.

But rare BLC skins or precursors are not perfect competion. I argue that many of their markets are controlled in a way similar to a real world oligopoly, where a small group of agents control a huge share of that market. The people rich enough to afford to flip these rare high end items will never need to struggle to make gold to afford the things they want in this game ever again as long as they’re wise and don’t make unecessarily risky choices (ie investing in the chaos of lyssa before the drop rate was patched). Many of this is luck based, and a lot of it is actually effort based, but the point is that it doesn’t seem right for so few people to have such influence on individual markets and its also controversial in my eyes for them to keep flipping and exploiting these markets when they don’t have a realistic “need” to keep doing so. Kind of like if you decide to keep working rather than retire and enjoy yourself when you win the lottery in real life.

I work hard for my money by doing dungeons and small time flipping in industries where my influence won’t cause any significant difference in the market of that good over time (which means relatively low amounts of extra income). I almost punish myself for not realizing how rich I could have been if I had bought 30 strength runes back in march. I know that I will probably never be able to keep up with endlessly wealthy players.. but thats only a deterrent in terms of aesthetics, rather than actual gameplay, as an average person will be able to get the gear within reason that they need to optimize their gameplay, just by putting effort into it. The shiny high end stuff can be acquired through hard work and perseverance, but if you’re not having fun, then your goals may not be worth it.

laokoko.7403:

KarateKid.5648:

laokoko.7403:

Behellagh.1468:

Flippers can only raise the price over the long run if they can control supply. Since it’s been shown that it’s impossible even for low supply/high demand items like precursors, blaming them is simply incorrect.

…And “change” the price of crafting material every patch to their liking. The games economy is too dependent on crafting material etc…

Screenshot or it didn’t happen.

I mean for example ascended armor sky rocket the price of silk. etc. Basically flippers flip crafting material because price do change a lot. Or for example people stock up crafting material for festival of the four winds.

All I’m saying is the price of crafting material fluctuate a lot, which give flippers “chance” to flip items. If price are actually stable, flippers dont’ have the chance right?

Ahhh, so the players change the price in response to new shinies. I thought you meant anet manipulating the TP which noone would want… except the anticapitalists, of course. And us converts.

Know what I want for a skin, given my newfound lease on life (more like a grant, because “lease” implies commerce)? Robes like this:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/06/02/82/060282c012de022b4e11ec57a0058776.jpg

Vol.7601:

If only I knew how to photoshop or make .gifs ;(

But I have no time…cause IM FLIPPING!

Wait, I thought flipping is easy and takes almost no time? ;-)

I actually found myself appreciating flippers just last night. While leveling up a new warrior I found myself not doing as much damage as I would like because I was just wearing gear that I picked up while playing. It seemed like a good idea to buy some cheap zerky gear so I did some searching on the TP and found stuff that upped my damage for just a few silver. Just looking through the list of stuff, it seemed likely that some of it (e.g. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/45925) was stuff that is flipped. Even buying it immediately I was glad it was available and a reasonable price. Let’s hear it for the flippers. :-)

The fundamental mistake is comparing the Trading post to a stock market. The TP is more a commodities market. If you look at it that way it makes more sense. Flippers are more in line with speculators.

Regardless of how you look at it every game has an in game economy, formal or otherwise. Using it to bring in an income to fund your in game activities has been the mainstay of all of these games.

The OP’s suggestion is ridiculous as that would drive up prices not bring them down. Under their idea, in order for the prices to even be held static, the same quantity of items removed from the TC would have to equal the volume being put in. This is just not going to happen.

What you see as illegitimate is actually a very legitimate way of playing the game. You go off into the world and hoover up vast quantities of materials, weapons and gold then sink it into the TC or merchants. Adventurer’s gold is created more or less out of the air and as such, there is effectively a limitless supply of it. What does a limitless supply of currency cause? Inflation, then hyperinflation.

Flippers are a necessary part of the in game economy. They’ll will do dungeons, sell Arah paths, gather mats, and all the stuff that anyone does but the gold they earn from that is sunk into the TC, which acts to keep the economy balanced. They earn a great deal of gold, this is true but 5% fee also acts to remove a great deal of gold from the market which in turn helps control inflation. Even pulling a number out of the air, one could consider that 100s of thousands, if not millions of gold are sucked out of the economy by flipper trading.

Remove flipping from the game and you’ll destroy the economy

Azrael.4960:

The fundamental mistake is comparing the Trading post to a stock market. The TP is more a commodities market. If you look at it that way it makes more sense. Flippers are more in line with speculators.

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose. They get their money by limiting the quantity of items aviable.

Azrael.4960:

Remove flipping from the game and you’ll destroy the economy

Removing traidingpost flipping will not break the economy, it will just stop the cheesiest way to make gold. Believe it or not but there was a time before stock exchange and such and it worked. ANet already stopped champtrains because they were cheesy, no skill was required. To flip the tradingpost, there is actual “skill” required but the revenue is also way higher which leads to an inbalanced time-reward ratio, ergo being cheesy. The current GW2 economy looks like the real word economy: 10% of the players hold 90% of the currency. This is driving the prices up because everyone is trying to sell their stuff as expensive as possible. Removing traidingpost flipping will spread the gold more equally because the remaining ways of making gold have a more balanced time-reward ratio. There wont be massive inflation simply because all people will proceed buying stuff from the traidingpost, the fee would still be effective. More people would start to convert gold to gems or waste their gold otherwise. Also all people wouldn’t magically get more money, the most ones will still make less than 10g per day. My suggested change is only supposed to cut off the last 10% who are holding the majority of the gold.

“You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose”

Yeah your argument failed from the start.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Vol.7601:

If only I knew how to photoshop or make .gifs ;(

But I have no time…cause IM FLIPPING!

Wait, I thought flipping is easy and takes almost no time? ;-)

I actually found myself appreciating flippers just last night. While leveling up a new warrior I found myself not doing as much damage as I would like because I was just wearing gear that I picked up while playing. It seemed like a good idea to buy some cheap zerky gear so I did some searching on the TP and found stuff that upped my damage for just a few silver. Just looking through the list of stuff, it seemed likely that some of it (e.g. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/45925) was stuff that is flipped. Even buying it immediately I was glad it was available and a reasonable price. Let’s hear it for the flippers. :-)

i dont know if flippers helped you at all there, in fact that item looks like a market failure on a number of levels.

to be honest flippers dont do anything good for players, other than give them some quick liquid cash. Everything they buy is worth more than its sold for, or it must be worth less than they sell it for.

flippers arent really the end of the world though, truth is, anet forces everyone into business, basically making it a flippers paradise.

Everyone needs to use the trading post to get what they want
Everyone needs to use the trading post to get rid of all the stuff anet gave em that they didnt ask for.
the only balance for flippers is other flippers, the problem is even though they are competing with each other, they are still both looking to defeat the average player. Which means? they only provide a service to you if they are juicing you.

The other problem is, the only way the trading economy works well is if there are a lot of flippers constantly competing for everything, and if anet can make everything have as value based on the design for supply of that randomly generated drop.

i think the biggest fail of this economy comes down to supply being controlled via rng. And an inability to specialize in most products through intent.

The market has very little ability to correct itself

phys.7689:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Vol.7601:

If only I knew how to photoshop or make .gifs ;(

But I have no time…cause IM FLIPPING!

Wait, I thought flipping is easy and takes almost no time? ;-)

I actually found myself appreciating flippers just last night. While leveling up a new warrior I found myself not doing as much damage as I would like because I was just wearing gear that I picked up while playing. It seemed like a good idea to buy some cheap zerky gear so I did some searching on the TP and found stuff that upped my damage for just a few silver. Just looking through the list of stuff, it seemed likely that some of it (e.g. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/45925) was stuff that is flipped. Even buying it immediately I was glad it was available and a reasonable price. Let’s hear it for the flippers. :-)

to be honest flippers dont do anything good for players, other than give them some quick liquid cash.

That’s a pretty big ‘good’ or advantange. I like how you downplay it by saying it’s worth nothing but then add a little snippet to pretend like it’s not worth mentioning.

Azrael.4960:

The fundamental mistake is comparing the Trading post to a stock market. The TP is more a commodities market. If you look at it that way it makes more sense. Flippers are more in line with speculators.

Regardless of how you look at it every game has an in game economy, formal or otherwise. Using it to bring in an income to fund your in game activities has been the mainstay of all of these games.

The OP’s suggestion is ridiculous as that would drive up prices not bring them down. Under their idea, in order for the prices to even be held static, the same quantity of items removed from the TC would have to equal the volume being put in. This is just not going to happen.

What you see as illegitimate is actually a very legitimate way of playing the game. You go off into the world and hoover up vast quantities of materials, weapons and gold then sink it into the TC or merchants. Adventurer’s gold is created more or less out of the air and as such, there is effectively a limitless supply of it. What does a limitless supply of currency cause? Inflation, then hyperinflation.

Flippers are a necessary part of the in game economy. They’ll will do dungeons, sell Arah paths, gather mats, and all the stuff that anyone does but the gold they earn from that is sunk into the TC, which acts to keep the economy balanced. They earn a great deal of gold, this is true but 5% fee also acts to remove a great deal of gold from the market which in turn helps control inflation. Even pulling a number out of the air, one could consider that 100s of thousands, if not millions of gold are sucked out of the economy by flipper trading.

Remove flipping from the game and you’ll destroy the economy

an economy is like an ecosystem, yes you would destroy it, but something else would undoubtedly spring up in its stead, the question is, would what comes be better? maybe not, but honestly the economy we have is not really that good. Many goods services, tasks have no value, or low value, the ones with high value end up being degenerative.

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

so they arent really a slam dunk in terms of benefits to the economy.

Vol.7601:

phys.7689:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Vol.7601:

If only I knew how to photoshop or make .gifs ;(

But I have no time…cause IM FLIPPING!

Wait, I thought flipping is easy and takes almost no time? ;-)

I actually found myself appreciating flippers just last night. While leveling up a new warrior I found myself not doing as much damage as I would like because I was just wearing gear that I picked up while playing. It seemed like a good idea to buy some cheap zerky gear so I did some searching on the TP and found stuff that upped my damage for just a few silver. Just looking through the list of stuff, it seemed likely that some of it (e.g. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/45925) was stuff that is flipped. Even buying it immediately I was glad it was available and a reasonable price. Let’s hear it for the flippers. :-)

to be honest flippers dont do anything good for players, other than give them some quick liquid cash.

That’s a pretty big ‘good’ or advantange. I like how you downplay it by saying it’s worth nothing but then add a little snippet to pretend like it’s not worth mentioning.

hmm, well its good for our Ids, but there really isnt any benefit in actuality to players. When i played other games, i might have to wait a day or so for things to sell, but in reality i made more money for the same amount of work.

So yeah people love it, they use it, i know i have sold many times to the lowest seller, when i felt the need to gamble and needed my quick fix for gambling or making progress towards some goal, but that doesnt mean its actually beneficial, just means i am impatient, and lazy.

but the truth is the trading itself is more satisfying without it, i get more for what i sell, or buy things cheaper, and most items are worth what they are actually worth, not what 3 guys who each took a 18%+ cut made it cost.

essentially its not good for the value of goods and services, in a system where the suppliers are not intentionally supplying. It wouldnt be bad if most of the suppliers were making calculated moves, and business decisions, but that is not the case. Its generally the sellers who get screwed, and the non business oriented buyers.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

@ OP

Although I understand where you are coming from, and can see that flipping the TP to get rich is “A cheap way to play”, I have to disagree. As said many times before, flipping the TP takes patience, skill, research, timing, and knowledge. Just like any other aspect of the game, with the exception of champ trains (But thats another discussion). There is one thing that has hsan’t been brought up yet. A very important aspect to flipping the TP. Seed money. One simply cannot start flipping the TP without a sizable bank roll to begin with. Sure, you might be able to do a little bit with 5 gold, but that small amount isn’t going to make you rich over night. With that amount it might take many months to actually begin making a sizable profit. No, you NEED to start with at LEAST a couple hundred gold, and maybe alot more, to even make it worth your while. So where does this seed money (hundreds of gold) come from? Well either through PLAYING THE GAME or buying gems and converting to gold. Well the current rate for gem conversion (.13 USD for 1 gold), it would cost $65 dollars for 500 gold. So with serious flippers, they most likely are paying RL money to start flipping, and making a significant amount of money. Which of course is actually beneficial, as these people buy gems with cash, and convert to gold, it drives the gold to gem conversion price down.

My point is this. If you feel that this is unfair, either learn to flip the TP yourself, or pay more money to be on a level with the “high rollers” by buying gems and converting to gold. QQing about someone elses play style because you don’t like it for whatever reason is pointless, and only makes you look entitled and jealous.

To underpin my point:

All ways to get gold in game, exept traidingpost flipping, are based on a set amount of gold.
Everything you do is furthermore limited by time. Your revenue will always look like this:
A set amount of gold from one activity * time spent + gear worn.
As a traidingpost flipper, this would look like this:
Your gold * time spent. This can get quickly out of hands.
Someone who is doing APAD (all dungeons all paths) runs will earn 50g every day.
Someone who is spending 100g on the traidingpost will get 110g back after one day.
The next day he will spend 110g, getting 140g back. This can be repeated endlessly.
There are many people who have 10k + gold and I assure you, they haven’t done APAD runs.

pdavis.8031:

@ OP

Although I understand where you are coming from, and can see that flipping the TP to get rich is “A cheap way to play”, I have to disagree. As said many times before, flipping the TP takes patience, skill, research, timing, and knowledge. Just like any other aspect of the game, with the exception of champ trains (But thats another discussion). There is one thing that has hsan’t been brought up yet. A very important aspect to flipping the TP. Seed money. One simply cannot start flipping the TP without a sizable bank roll to begin with. Sure, you might be able to do a little bit with 5 gold, but that small amount isn’t going to make you rich over night. With that amount it might take many months to actually begin making a sizable profit. No, you NEED to start with at LEAST a couple hundred gold, and maybe alot more, to even make it worth your while. So where does this seed money (hundreds of gold) come from? Well either through PLAYING THE GAME or buying gems and converting to gold. Well the current rate for gem conversion (.13 USD for 1 gold), it would cost $65 dollars for 500 gold. So with serious flippers, they most likely are paying RL money to start flipping, and making a significant amount of money. Which of course is actually beneficial, as these people buy gems with cash, and convert to gold, it drives the gold to gem conversion price down.

My point is this. If you feel that this is unfair, either learn to flip the TP yourself, or pay more money to be on a level with the “high rollers” by buying gems and converting to gold. QQing about someone elses play style because you don’t like it for whatever reason is pointless, and only makes you look entitled and jealous.

you can grow your money at all levels, its actually usually easier and more consistent to flip cheap items. if you started with 5 gold, probably by the end of the month if you are a slightly above average TPman you could make 300-400 gold. I say this because at times i have done it, and im far from all pro TP player.
I dont think most flippers buy gold, even though it may be worth it, the point of gold hunting is to make the most with as little investment as possible, and it really isnt too hard to come up in the flipping game.

i believe the vast majority of gems>gold is from impatient people, which in general is not type of trits that lend itself well to long term profits

Nice one, OP! 8/10
The QQ on these threads is delicious.

OP.. You do understand there is a TREMENDOUS amount of risk in playing the TP right? It’s not nearly as easy as you may think just because people commit to it. A lot of that flip the TP don’t just sit all day watching it. It’s a passive income that we create and let it do its thing while we play the game. It’ very simple if you are good with numbers and spreadsheets.. and if you aren’t.. it’s not exceptionally hard to learn.

Tell me why wouldn’t you want to login, set some buy orders and then run some fractals/dungeons/WvW/PvP or whatever you want to do and just let the TP work its magic.

@Phys

You may be correct. I don’t flip, but I have read up on flipping, and was of the understandiing that in order to be the most profitable, you’d want to start out with a lot of gold. Either way my point still stands. People need to get over themselves, and stop trying to nerf legit ways to play the game that aren’t really doing any harm to anything just because they don’t like it. Just like the “Zerker” trend. I don’t play zerker, but I’m not crying for a nerf because I don’t like it.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

If you are really interested, some simple google searching is enlightening. Merely entering “why is speculation good for markets” into google returns many informative links (see below.) Of course not all of these apply to the in-game economy, but many (most) do. And also, possibly the biggest benefit of flipping in game (reduction of inflation due to it being a fairly large gold sink) doesn’t apply in real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/09/the-function-of-speculators.asp
http://www.investing.com/analysis/why-speculation-is-good-%28especially-in-the-commodities-market%29-127761

Cyrrin.1230:

OP.. You do understand there is a TREMENDOUS amount of risk in playing the TP right? It’s not nearly as easy as you may think just because people commit to it. A lot of that flip the TP don’t just sit all day watching it. It’s a passive income that we create and let it do its thing while we play the game. It’ very simple if you are good with numbers and spreadsheets.. and if you aren’t.. it’s not exceptionally hard to learn.

Tell me why wouldn’t you want to login, set some buy orders and then run some fractals/dungeons/WvW/PvP or whatever you want to do and just let the TP work its magic.

Which risk exactly? The only risk you’re taking is that you have to wait for your items to sell when someone listed them cheaper. And why don’t you play fractals for the loot at the end as it was intended?

William Bradley Knight.2609:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

If you are really interested, some simple google searching is enlightening. Merely entering “why is speculation good for markets” into google returns many informative links (see below.) Of course not all of these apply to the in-game economy, but many (most) do. And also, possibly the biggest benefit of flipping in game (reduction of inflation due to it being a fairly large gold sink) doesn’t apply in real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/09/the-function-of-speculators.asp
http://www.investing.com/analysis/why-speculation-is-good-%28especially-in-the-commodities-market%29-127761

Haha, that was a good one. If I ask google “Why the world will end 2014” I also get some nice results.

Wikipedia:
“Speculators play one of four primary roles in financial markets, along with hedgers who engage in transactions to offset some other pre existing risk”
So if I read that correctly, since english is not my native language, specualtors are taking risks away from the sellers. There is no risk in GW2, so this argument doesn’t apply.

pdavis.8031:

@Phys

You may be correct. I don’t flip, but I have read up on flipping, and was of the understandiing that in order to be the most profitable, you’d want to start out with a lot of gold. Either way my point still stands. People need to get over themselves, and stop trying to nerf legit ways to play the game that aren’t really doing any harm to anything just because they don’t like it. Just like the “Zerker” trend. I don’t play zerker, but I’m not crying for a nerf because I don’t like it.

hmm i dont think killing all flipping is the answer, but it does have an effect on the game, they hardwired trading into item creation. so flipping is an extremely large business, and it cannot be avoided. The other large effect is that it provides more gold with a different type of relationship than anything else in the game. This basically creates a class structure based on how you fit into the market. While class structures may be unavoidable, having them based primarily on your role in the market in an adventure game is probably the thing people have the biggest issue with.

The most effecient gameplay by far in terms of rewards (gold/items of high demand/utility) is tp playing if you are ok at it. Followed by farming. Since the game tends to be rebalanced on a macro level, a lot of normal people feel the effects most harshly. For a above average tp player, 40 gold for an ascended item is like a days work, for the average normal player, its like 1.5-2 weeks, for a below average player, it could take a month or more for one item.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

I try to explain.
First we have to determine what a speculator is. Many people have a different definition of them but for my explaination they are people that buy items that are not in demand at the moment (supply is higher than demand), hold on to them (either in their personal storage or as a high listing on the tp) in order to sell them at a higher price in the future, when the item gets into demand. By doing so, they offer several benefits to other players and the economy.

1. An item whose supply is higher than demand will fall in price until it reaches vendor value because nobody will buy it. If speculators put in buy orders higher than vendor value, they give sellers more gold for their goods.

2. If speculators wouldnt buy up those items, they will be sold to vendors. This destroys the item and generates gold, which lowers overall supply of the item and inflates gold. If they buy it, they keep the supply in game and sink gold through fees and taxes, which tackles inflation.

3. Now the item gets into demand out of a sudden, most propably due to a new patch.
Due to speculators, there is a higher supply on the tp which means the price will not spike as fast as when they wouldnt have listed their items after buying them when they werent in demand. Those speculators that held on to their items in personal storage, will start listing them now, competing with each other, which leads to a faster equilibrium.

Cyrrin.1230:

OP.. You do understand there is a TREMENDOUS amount of risk in playing the TP right? It’s not nearly as easy as you may think just because people commit to it. A lot of that flip the TP don’t just sit all day watching it. It’s a passive income that we create and let it do its thing while we play the game. It’ very simple if you are good with numbers and spreadsheets.. and if you aren’t.. it’s not exceptionally hard to learn.

Tell me why wouldn’t you want to login, set some buy orders and then run some fractals/dungeons/WvW/PvP or whatever you want to do and just let the TP work its magic.

to be perfectly honest, the only risk on trading is the 5% tp cost, and honestly, if you are not a fool, your item will always sell, its just a matter of how long. Which does lower your possible earnings from reinvestment, but that is essentially complaining about whether you can make 5-20% interest on your investment per hour, or per week, you are still profiting.

unless you are talking about the gamble like speculation based on predictions, insider info, or predicting the trends, which is a different beast.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Cyrrin.1230:

OP.. You do understand there is a TREMENDOUS amount of risk in playing the TP right? It’s not nearly as easy as you may think just because people commit to it. A lot of that flip the TP don’t just sit all day watching it. It’s a passive income that we create and let it do its thing while we play the game. It’ very simple if you are good with numbers and spreadsheets.. and if you aren’t.. it’s not exceptionally hard to learn.

Tell me why wouldn’t you want to login, set some buy orders and then run some fractals/dungeons/WvW/PvP or whatever you want to do and just let the TP work its magic.

Which risk exactly? The only risk you’re taking is that you have to wait for your items to sell when someone listed them cheaper. And why don’t you play fractals for the loot at the end as it was intended?

And this is not a considerable risk for you? Personally i play the tp alot (these days more for fun than for profit) and i have 598 listing on the TP which havent sold yet, the oldest posted half a year ago. Thats all value/gold that is tied up and i cant use.

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

I try to explain.
First we have to determine what a speculator is. Many people have a different definition of them but for my explaination they are people that buy items that are not in demand at the moment (supply is higher than demand), hold on to them (either in their personal storage or as a high listing on the tp) in order to sell them at a higher price in the future, when the item gets into demand. By doing so, they offer several benefits to other players and the economy.

1. An item whose supply is higher than demand will fall in price until it reaches vendor value because nobody will buy it. If speculators put in buy orders higher than vendor value, they give sellers more gold for their goods.

2. If speculators wouldnt buy up those items, they will be sold to vendors. This destroys the item and generates gold, which lowers overall supply of the item and inflates gold. If they buy it, they keep the supply in game and sink gold through fees and taxes, which tackles inflation.

3. Now the item gets into demand out of a sudden, most propably due to a new patch.
Due to speculators, there is a higher supply on the tp which means the price will not spike as fast as when they wouldnt have listed their items after buying them when they werent in demand. Those speculators that held on to their items in personal storage, will start listing them now, competing with each other, which leads to a faster equilibrium.

1) an item whose price is close to vendor value is a failed item, it has virtually no value, as most vendor items are priced extremely low compared to what they are supposed to be worth too players.

2)these items should be destroyed, or never created in the first place, they are mucking up the market, and reducing the value of playtime

3) the market correcting patches, designed to give these glut items value and reduce their oversaturation only exist because people held on to useless items to begin with.

Essentially the entire cycle you mention is a self fullfilling prophecy created by the lack of control of supply by the market. The solutions cause mass waves, and problems, with generally little benefit to the game.

Do you think halloween items are better implemented now that it takes 10000 candy corn to make? Its honestly a circle of fail.

keeping items with no value in the market is actually really bad. They shouldnt have created a market with so little control on the supply side.

I’m not apposed to the idea of SOME specific items being limited to ONE TP sale (so those items BOUGHT off the TP become Account bound), but not all items…..I’m also not sure how what those items are is decided (tho I’m guessing Precursors and possibly Legendary weapons top the list).

However, this is a slippery slope to start down and artificially controlling the TP like that is the first step to accepting that Anet can openly interfere in a supposedly free marketplace.

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Cyrrin.1230:

OP.. You do understand there is a TREMENDOUS amount of risk in playing the TP right? It’s not nearly as easy as you may think just because people commit to it. A lot of that flip the TP don’t just sit all day watching it. It’s a passive income that we create and let it do its thing while we play the game. It’ very simple if you are good with numbers and spreadsheets.. and if you aren’t.. it’s not exceptionally hard to learn.

Tell me why wouldn’t you want to login, set some buy orders and then run some fractals/dungeons/WvW/PvP or whatever you want to do and just let the TP work its magic.

Which risk exactly? The only risk you’re taking is that you have to wait for your items to sell when someone listed them cheaper. And why don’t you play fractals for the loot at the end as it was intended?

And this is not a considerable risk for you? Personally i play the tp alot (these days more for fun than for profit) and i have 598 listing on the TP which havent sold yet, the oldest posted half a year ago. Thats all value/gold that is tied up and i cant use.

Honestly, without wanting to upset you, that screenshot looks like stupidity to me. Based on the price this recipe is very common and each player just has to buy it once. So why did you buy such a huge amount in the first place?

I’ll bring up this point: without the various forms of TP traders, inflation would run rampant in the game. TP tax is easily the largest gold sink in the game; orders of magnitude above the next-highest. And TP traders, in my estimation, make up more than half of all TP transactions.

To put some fake numbers to it:
let’s say 1 million gold entering the game per day through players completing dungeons and stuff.
to have no inflation you also need 1 million gold to leave the game per day. Players list things on the TP and 900 million gold leaves the game through TP tax. the other 100 million is taken care of with other gold sinks such as the gem exchange, icy runestones, cultural armor, etc.
If you remove all the TP trading professions, instead only 400 million gold leaves the game through TP fees (because more than half of that was stopped). So you’d have 500 million extra gold per day accumulating.
you thought precursor prices were high now? hehe. they’d all go up 100g a month and never stop, because people would have the money to pay those prices. By christmas, Dawn would be 1,600g.

Be as annoyed by them all you want; but just respect that each time they flip something, 30% of that gold leaves the game and delays inflation (15% on buy + 15% on sell).

Mystic.5934:

I’ll bring up this point: without the various forms of TP traders, inflation would run rampant in the game. TP tax is easily the largest gold sink in the game; orders of magnitude above the next-highest. And TP traders, in my estimation, make up more than half of all TP transactions.

To put some fake numbers to it:
let’s say 1 million gold entering the game per day through players completing dungeons and stuff.
to have no inflation you also need 1 million gold to leave the game per day. Players list things on the TP and 900 million gold leaves the game through TP tax. the other 100 million is taken care of with other gold sinks such as the gem exchange, icy runestones, cultural armor, etc.
If you remove all the TP trading professions, instead only 400 million gold leaves the game through TP fees (because more than half of that was stopped). So you’d have 500 million extra gold per day accumulating.
you thought precursor prices were high now? hehe. they’d all go up 100g a month and never stop, because people would have the money to pay those prices. By christmas, Dawn would be 1,600g.

Be as annoyed by them all you want; but just respect that each time they flip something, 30% of that gold leaves the game and delays inflation (15% on buy + 15% on sell).

This is flawed, straight out. First, you just have to pay a 15% fee for selling stuff. Second, how should this change have a huge impact on the prices? Each player who doesn’t flip doesn’t get more gold because of this change. Some items would be cheaper for a while but that would balance itself after a while. It would only stop traidingpost flippers, all of them.