Guild Wars 2

Brutal Arts.6307:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Just a quick note to let you know i am up to date.

I am assuming that you all feel that for example a Dredge rework is higher priority than say a rework to rolling?

Chris

Dredge and rewards.

The people crying about rerolling are like the people crying about skipping trash mobs. It has absolutely 0 effect on them but they want others to play the way they want. If you don’t like rolling than just don’t do it.

Completely agree.

Don’t forget to fix archdiviner’s ring of warding unjustified doubletap- one is during the swing animation and the projectiles, issue being its inconsistence, as it might hit both or one part.

darkfiremew.5937:

I still think that making a dedicated team for Fractals (making/updating/fixing them) is the best course to go on. And with monthly new Fractal releases it would solve most if not all of the problems with fractals.

Yeah, fractals really needs a dedicated team on it. Fractured showed exactly why you can’t use the LS model for fractals. You can’t just put a random team on fractals, then take them off immediately after their one update is out. It leads to them putting in things that make no sense or flat out not fixing some of the issues people have wanted fixed for a year.

Even now, I can’t help but wonder how effective this CDI will be since there’s no team for fractals. You can take ideas from here all you want, but in the end, does it matter? It’s just going to go to a random LS team, who will have no context for what’s wrong with fractals, and will just quit interacting with the fractal community the second their update goes live.

Hi

Goal of Proposal

1.-Enjoyable reward system through the whole run and not only at the daily chest.
2.-Fractal Skins should be hard to get, but a goal you can work towards.

Proposal Functionality

Before start, I have to make it clear that higher tiers should have a noticeable increase of a chance for “shinies”. Right now, a level 20 feels pretty similar to a level 49 in terms of rewards

1.-Right now, the exclusive rewards from fractals (the good shinies :P) only can be obtained at the daily chest. I find this like an error and really boring because in term of rewards you don’t enjoy the whole run. Yes, you can get even an exotic while going through but all of that can be obtained in anywhere. What I really think people wants are things like the infinite tonic, the fractal skins, the ascended weapons, etc… That is the reason why people run fractals in terms of rewards.

One thing I really miss in this game and specially in Fractals, is the feeling like “that mob can drop me the cool item/skin im looking for…and if he doesn’t, maybe the next one will!”. It would be really cool if every mob/chest/boss in Fractals can have a chance to drop the cool items you are looking for. That would make the feeling about rewards enjoyable because you will never know when can arrive the “Bingo!”.

Dont get me wrong, I understand that isn’t a good idea if you start to give us tons of skins/ascended weapons/infinite tonic everywhere. For those items ofcourse I suggest a low chance (really lower than the chest of the last fractal). But when I say low chance, I mean a reasonable low chance and not nearly imposible like a precursor drop. Ofcourse the ascended weapon drop by a mob should be the rarest… let’s say you can see someone in your party getting one as a drop by a mob every 10 full runs at tier 41+. That sounds like a reasonable chance to me.

Just another example to improve the rewards experience through the run and not only at the last fractal chest :

Mobs can now drop “Myst Keys” in tier level 41+. They can’t be droped at first fractal, low chance at second fractal and nice chance at third fractal (so people won’t just find a way to easy farm them). Average rate should be something like 1-2 keys each person per full run…and a very rare chance to not get at least one per run. Just like ectoplams used to be at Underworld in GW1 (I loved the feeling about that dungeon reward system because almos every mob had a chance for exclusive materials and skins).

Now a bonus chest spawns at last fractal after kill the boss:
-Using 10 Keys = Typical chest rewards and a chance to Fractal Skin, Ascended Piece or Infinite Tinics. Just like a bonus daily chest without pristine relic.

-Using 20 Keys = Typical chest rewards, a guaranted random Fractal Skin, and the standar daily chance to Ascended weapon or Infinite Tonic.

-Using 50 Keys = Typical chest rewards, a guaranted Fractal Skin Box (you can select the skin you want!) and a bit higher chance to Ascenden Weapon and Infinite Tonic.

This was only and example, but im sure you can about you can find a way to improve my idea. But i think you really must improve the feel about reward experience to be exited through the whole run and not just the boring “one per day at the end of the run”.

In regard to Fractal Skins, as i said, they must stay hard to get because they are the only non-legendary non-gemstore rare skins in the whole game. But you should have a fair way to work towards the goal like for example the Myst Keys at tier 41+ idea. Pristine Relics for skins is unfair because everyone can just farm then at level 11.

Risk

A significant increase of free Ascended Weapon in player’s hands. But I defend the cause because in my opinion is fair, legit and normal to get high end rewards at high end PvE content.

See you!

PD: Sorry about my english but is not my mother language

Becka Williams.4978:

Yes, why do you want to punish people for doing something that doesn’t affect you in any way?

Because it is a flaw in the design that can be exploited. (Not to get confused with an exploit, which it isn’t).
Because of that you need to fix the flaw so that the content works as intended.
The intention with fractals is that each time you enter, you get a random sequence of fractals that you need to complete.
Currently that is not the case. Currently you get a swamp and never get any of the other tier 1 fractals.

And it does affect me, in fact it does affect everyone who does fractals (I won’t argue if it effects people in a good or bad way though). Every single party that enters fractals will either have swamp ready when you start or they will search for swamp while you join.
This is the golden rule of fractal running.

Also the comment “why fix it if it doesn’t affect you?” I think is quite faulty.
Why set up invisible walls in Arah so that you can’t break out of the map and skip Lupicus? That doesn’t affect you, you can use the normal way if you want.
Or why fix the infinite range on the flamethrower? It doesn’t affect you, you can use it within the intended range if you want.
If you only fix faulty content that affects -me- or “Joe” or “Adrian”, then nothing would ever get fixed.

As for the comment “people are skipping mobs, so why not this?”.
Well, if skipping mobs is not an intended “mechanic”, then they should fix that as well.
If it is an intended mechanic, then the difference is that re-rolling fractals to get a guaranteed first one is not intended while skipping mobs is intended.
There isn’t any other connection between the two really.

However I do agree that fixing Dredge and the Rewards are of a much higher priority.
But this should definitely be fixed since it’s an exploitable flaw (not to get confused with an exploit, which it is not).

pza.8024:

Estriella Faerie.4029:

Relativity.3264:

No more AR hardcaps
I’m skilled enough not to get hit. I can do a 49 with 0 AR. And yet, if I try to do a 40 with any less than 50 I’m toast. These AR hardcaps are just plain stupid. Who thought these up? If you need 55AR to finish a 40 you might as well remove all the agony from 41 to 49 since the agony will bearly tickle.

Completely agree here. What’s even worse is that now, with those hardcaps, people don’t even care to dodge anymore.
Before, even at max AR, you had to dodge on the higher levels, or you would die. If you had not enough AR, you could survive if you were skilled enough to dodge.

Now, you’re forced to have a minimum level of AR (because of insta 40 & 50), so much that you don’t take any damage from agony on the following 9 levels. So people don’t dodge, they just facetank the damage. And as you said, skill isn’t rewarded. It’s either you have the stuff, or you don’t…

THIS. SO MUCH.

its the only thing i absolutely hate about fractals and the game generally. Everytime i get to the boss level i feel that pure state of hate. It almost made me deinstall the game when i heard of it, if there wasnt my friends playing. Whoever thought this would be a good idea probably has no idea of… ned to stop now. It makes me too sad. Oh, and i dont want this post to be called non-constructive: Pls remove this hard cap and add skill cap (maybe related to agony resistance) instead. e.g. enemy aoe skill with 0.3 s time to dodge and +0.1 seconds more time to dodge for every 10 agony resistance.

This is what made fractals 30-50 way easier than everything before the fact that you didn’t Need to care about bossattacks anymore. I think one of the most important things is to make Agony again a gamemechanic as it was on 60+ before where agony attacks had a meaning. If you wanna leave it a gearcheck just leave it at all

If you don’t want to start with swamp, make a group that states “fractal [number], rolled [not swamp]”.

Or, instead, you can choose to impose your view on everyone else and make everybody else who you’re not even playing with suffer because what they’re doing hurts your feelings, that works too.

Also the comment “why fix it if it doesn’t affect you?” I think is quite faulty.
Why set up invisible walls in Arah so that you can’t break out of the map and skip Lupicus? That doesn’t affect you, you can use the normal way if you want.

Well actually it’s killed legit selling. White knights kick sellers, and the value of Arah paths crashed because of exploiters.

It’s funny, because if you’ve gone on youtube you’d see how busted Cleric gear is (it lets you literally 111 afk bosses) but I’m not going around asking for it to be removed from the game because I don’t use it and I don’t play with people who use it therefore it’s not my problem.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The thing about re-rolling is, that you might as well always make the Swamp the first fractal if you allow it. If people are just going to keep re-rolling till they get the Swamp, might as well make the swamp the start-fractal by default… OR allow players to select their initial fractal.

All re-rolling is, is bypassing the other fractals to get the quickest one.

That maybe true but its hardly the most pressing issue which is driving players away from fractals. It should be a low priority problem. Lack of rewards and dredge is whats killing fractals for the majority of players, not rolling.

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

pza.8024:

Estriella Faerie.4029:

Relativity.3264:

No more AR hardcaps
I’m skilled enough not to get hit. I can do a 49 with 0 AR. And yet, if I try to do a 40 with any less than 50 I’m toast. These AR hardcaps are just plain stupid. Who thought these up? If you need 55AR to finish a 40 you might as well remove all the agony from 41 to 49 since the agony will bearly tickle.

Completely agree here. What’s even worse is that now, with those hardcaps, people don’t even care to dodge anymore.
Before, even at max AR, you had to dodge on the higher levels, or you would die. If you had not enough AR, you could survive if you were skilled enough to dodge.

Now, you’re forced to have a minimum level of AR (because of insta 40 & 50), so much that you don’t take any damage from agony on the following 9 levels. So people don’t dodge, they just facetank the damage. And as you said, skill isn’t rewarded. It’s either you have the stuff, or you don’t…

THIS. SO MUCH.

its the only thing i absolutely hate about fractals and the game generally. Everytime i get to the boss level i feel that pure state of hate. It almost made me deinstall the game when i heard of it, if there wasnt my friends playing. Whoever thought this would be a good idea probably has no idea of… ned to stop now. It makes me too sad. Oh, and i dont want this post to be called non-constructive: Pls remove this hard cap and add skill cap (maybe related to agony resistance) instead. e.g. enemy aoe skill with 0.3 s time to dodge and +0.1 seconds more time to dodge for every 10 agony resistance.

This is what made fractals 30-50 way easier than everything before the fact that you didn’t Need to care about bossattacks anymore. I think one of the most important things is to make Agony again a gamemechanic as it was on 60+ before where agony attacks had a meaning. If you wanna leave it a gearcheck just leave it at all

This is simply false, and for the record I’d like to state that agony is a pointless gearcheck mechanic to begin with imo, as it punishes players with bad gear very harshly and when you have a good gear and enough AR you don’t have to care about it at all.

Patrik, at current scale 49 and at old scale 48 you have to and had to care about agony attacks because if you are running full zerk most agony attacks would 1shot you anyway even without the agony, and at 60+ this was always the case (apart from Archdiviner’s aoe circles). Also agony attacks apart from Jade Maw’s passive agony didn’t scale after 48 so you are wrong in that regard too.

And as it has been said many times already by many players, agony is a pointless gearcheck mechanic unless it is drastically reworked:
I’d suggest removing the agony resistance altogether and adding 4 stages to all the boss fights instead with hindurances that pile on each other.
Example:

Boss HP 100-75% – normal fighting
Boss HP 75-50% – endurance regen is reduced by X
Boss HP 50-25% – movement speed is reduced by X, previous effect is stronger
Boss HP 25-0% – weapon skills recharge rate reduced by X, previous effects are stronger

Tbh the examples I came up with are not that good or interesting, but you get the idea. This way agony would require players to adapt their playing style, use dodges and skills very sparingly and mind their positioning better, meaning that agony is now a skill-check mechanic instead of gearcheck.

hendo.1940:

If you don’t want to start with swamp, make a group that states “fractal [number], rolled [not swamp]”.

Or, instead, you can choose to impose your view on everyone else and make everybody else who you’re not even playing with suffer because what they’re doing hurts your feelings, that works too.

Also the comment “why fix it if it doesn’t affect you?” I think is quite faulty.
Why set up invisible walls in Arah so that you can’t break out of the map and skip Lupicus? That doesn’t affect you, you can use the normal way if you want.

Well actually it’s killed legit selling. White knights kick sellers, and the value of Arah paths crashed because of exploiters.

It’s funny, because if you’ve gone on youtube you’d see how busted Cleric gear is (it lets you literally 111 afk bosses) but I’m not going around asking for it to be removed from the game because I don’t use it and I don’t play with people who use it therefore it’s not my problem.

What you are describing is a separate issue, for the record what any player does effects the other players in an MMO. Did you get a reward at the end of that fractal? then it did affect me.
I’d also like to point out you’re pointing to clerics gear and going it’s “broken” so they should just leave this other stuff broken too.
Personally I consider path sellers to be the worst legitimate or not, they are giving people who should not have access to those rewards access.

It is bypassing an intended mechanic full stop, and will be addressed at some point.
Now lets get back on track.

spoj.9672:

That maybe true but its hardly the most pressing issue which is driving players away from fractals. It should be a low priority problem. Lack of rewards and dredge is whats killing fractals for the majority of players, not rolling.

Why not tackle all at once?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

spoj.9672:

That maybe true but its hardly the most pressing issue which is driving players away from fractals. It should be a low priority problem. Lack of rewards and dredge is whats killing fractals for the majority of players, not rolling.

Why not tackle all at once?

The same team might need to fix both Dredge and rolling if they choose an intro tier to be the fix or even if they choose balancing to be a fix and in that case I do see Dredge as a priority. But if they are able to, then absolutely, fix all at once. That would be the best.
All the issues should never the less all be adressed and fixed no matter the priority or order.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris

On a side note, it would be nice if you could make a short summary that lists all the topics you have read and that you are discussing internally.

There have been a bit of a discussion about “ingored subjects” and doing this would show people that you aren’t ignoring them.

This also lets people know if they should bring up a subject again because you might have missed it.

Chris apologies to post in this thread about a sep issue but, it might be worth post weekend some additional attention in the Ranger CDI. The community is trying to keep discussion moving, but it has lost direction and management. Could really use the “pep ups” this thread has had since inception.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Excellent exercise in terms of ‘reduction’ of the proposals and re factoring of your opinion in light of the discussions.

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

Chris

I would have said new fractals, but different sized group fractals would be a great boon to myself and others who belong loyally to small guildsand have had only bad experiences via lfg.

So thats my 1 pick!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Randulf.7614:

Chris apologies to post in this thread about a sep issue but, it might be worth post weekend some additional attention in the Ranger CDI. The community is trying to keep discussion moving, but it has lost direction and management. Could really use the “pep ups” this thread has had since inception.

Hi Randulf,

Thanks for the heads up. One thing for sure is that it is a much bigger thread (-:

Personally i think Allie and the team are doing a good job. I know the team has been discussing the proposals and discussions that they have seen in the thread.

Please note that I agree with their needing to be a guiding hand but do remember that the devs consider themselves peer members of the CDI group and thus there really shouldn’t be an expectation for them to comment all the time. Like me, they probably read, digest and evolve their own design philosophy based on the discussions. And at its core that is the huge value the CDI brings to GW2.

One thing I would like to point out is that whilst I spend portions of my weekend on the CDI that does not mean that this is expected of other team members. If anything my behavior is bad because as it sets an example to the community that they then expect to see replicated by other staff members and thus puts undue pressure on the team.

Chris

No criticism intended and no one expects a reply over the weekend, but it had been a while since a previous guiding hand from the lead dev of that thread. Sure they are doing a great job, but also there was expectation of much greater interaction hence the delay in getting the threads up and running. I don’t think the thread has derailed, it would just be a shame to see probably the leading CDI topic not get the direction it desp requires and thus have negative impact on the reputation of future threads.

More of a heads up really, where it goes from there is really in someone else’s ball court – I’m happy just reading atm

Chris,

Perhaps it would help the Ranger thread, if Allie were able to periodically make a post similar to yours: “I’ve just caught up on pages 7-13, now to discuss these pages with my team!”

I think most posters know she’s doing a great job, but a small post like that to show she’s still around would probably calm the masses, by reminding them that she really is there and paying attention.

(In a slightly related note, I will gladly beg you to run the future Elementalist CDI. =D)

Back to this thread:

Do you have any thoughts/opinions/suggestions on the Dredge or the re-rolling issues being discussed so much in this thread?

As a side note, I would also welcome new fractals based on GW1 lore. It some what saddens me that the game seems to stray a lot from GW1’s lore, especially lately with the Living Story. I would really love to see us go back to old GW1 missions as a fractal. For example: The Hell’s Precipice mission or Thunderhead Keep

The Fractals are an excellent opportunity to explain some of the old lore to players who haven’t played GW1, while being an excellent nostalgia trip for players that did play GW1.

Regarding rewards:

I would really like to work towards a long term goal. Like saving up for a special Fractals armor set for example. In GW1 areas such as UW and FoW were very popular, because they provided you with the material to craft Obsidian Armor. This is a very good way to add replayability to Fractals.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

videoboy.4162:

Chris,

Perhaps it would help the Ranger thread, if Allie were able to periodically make a post similar to yours: “I’ve just caught up on pages 7-13, now to discuss these pages with my team!”

I think most posters know she’s doing a great job, but a small post like that to show she’s still around would probably calm the masses, by reminding them that she really is there and paying attention.

(In a slightly related note, I will gladly beg you to run the future Elementalist CDI. =D)

Back to this thread:

Do you have any thoughts/opinions/suggestions on the Dredge or the re-rolling issues being discussed so much in this thread?

Hey Videoboy,

I will mention your suggestion to Allie. At the end of the day though it is up to the CDI Topic owners to connect with their CDI group in their own way.

Regarding your questions. As a player I think Dredge could do with some work and I agree with many of the proposals that have been put forward in this area (note this is a not a statement around development in this area).

Regarding the rolling discussion. I am less opinionated about this particular topic and am still reading through the groups proposal’s and discussion points.

Chris

May I ask you Chris what is your opinion on the matter and do you have any personal (unofficial) opinioins how to fix it, if it is determined that rolling needs a fix?

I personally don’t see rolling as a problem in general if people want to do certain fractals whatever the reason for that might be.

spoj.9672:

Adding dragonite into fractals would be nice. Atm dungeon runners are forced to do wvw or open world to get their dragonite. And they have no shortage of emp fragments and bloodstone dust.

I would also bring into question the balance of the rewards of these ascended materials and how they are distributed for different activities. As I’m sure most people who read the forums are aware, there have been topics brought up about the balance that needs to be struck between the players who do dungeons/WvW/fractals and the players who do world events and temple captures.

The way I see it there needs to be a division of the ascended material rewards given for both groups of players. Obviously some will do everything and therefore have little complaint, but the majority I’ve seen so far have very little dragonite because they don’t do world events, and an over-abundance of empyreal. The inverse is true for those who strictly run world events and temples. Dragonite abounds and there’s very little empyreal to be seen.

If players could have a bit of both for whatever activity they did, as long as they were active in the game (hypothetically speaking, let’s say half of the dragonite they currently get for temples and half the empyreal they get for captures in WvW), I believe you could obliterate a very obvious imbalance. People would have a steady flow of both ascended materials and there wouldn’t be any complaint about who has more of this and less of that.

Food for thought.

The key to fractal content seems to be to make the same content seem new and more difficult on repeated completions.

With this in mind, perhaps Arenanet should be aiming to create more variable, randomised sections of each fractal, which can swap around. e.g. (if a fractal had a maze in it) multiple varieties of maze. Either by randomising sections of said maze or by randomising between several pre-made mazes.

That is what initially springs to my mind, anyway… but then I’m not a fractal player – I find them a bit of a repetitive chore because they lack said variety

So, if fractals had individual rewards and we could pick exactly which ones to do, we’d essentially have recreated dungeons. The question becomes, are the Devs satisfied with the dungeons and the vast imbalances in the usage of the various paths? Imbalances that scaled rewards appear to have done little to redress. Best Reward:Effort ratios were worked out to 5 decimal places and enshrined in common practice. Those cyclical compulsion loops are very tight and very easily worn out. Fractals, through their random elements have much greater longevity because they don’t let you burn yourself out so easily. Its a quality we should not be so quick to discard in the never-ending chase after the shinies.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

My revised opinion is that we’re mired in trivia.

…Adding shinies to a vendor, fiddling with average clear times of this single fractal or that one, slamming shut a tiny loophole…

It’s trivia. These are all things that should be done, but they’re neither difficult nor important.

The main thing that’s going to keep fractals vibrant is adding more scenarios.

New Content will drive the continued use of fractals far more than polish.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

Chris

The single highest priority for me is:

A change to the acquisition of AR.

I do fractals every now and then, but I rarely gain levels because the people I play with don’t have enough fractal relics or ascended items to get enough AR to play at my level. (So I have done a lot of level 1-15 fractals, but I am still only level 27)

It would be great to be able to share some agony resistance with other people. This would go against agony resistance as a hard lock for ‘skilled’ or ‘experienced’ players, but I don’t find that a particularly interesting lock to begin with. I just want to be able to play with my friends at the more challenging fractal levels. (For which they are certainly skilled enough, I might add)

This issue is followed closely by fractal diversity. All fractal runs are starting to become more of the same thing. This might be because I never roll Thaumanova, or because I have not been able to reach the instabilities because of issue #1, but for a game type that supports the opportunity for ‘endless combinations’ it doesn’t feel very refreshing.

All the other problems that I’ve read about are not as important to me as these two.

Nike.2631:

So, if fractals had individual rewards and we could pick exactly which ones to do, we’d essentially have recreated dungeons. The question becomes, are the Devs satisfied with the dungeons and the vast imbalances in the usage of the various paths? Imbalances that scaled rewards appear to have done little to redress. Best Reward:Effort ratios were worked out to 5 decimal places and enshrined in common practice. Those cyclical compulsion loops are very tight and very easily worn out. Fractals, through their random elements have much greater longevity because they don’t let you burn yourself out so easily. Its a quality we should not be so quick to discard in the never-ending chase after the shinies.

Well, there are more differences between fractals and dungeons than just the reward system and the random factor.

• The freedom of lore design. (It can be an event in the past for example, or completely unrelated to the Tyria we know)

• The freedom in length, since they can be introduced in tiers, their length doesn’t have to be equal. (With dungeons this is also the case, but there is no fix for it like in fractals, so everyone just does CoF1, instead of 2 and 3)

• The scaling system. In which the same content is available at various difficulty levels.

That said, I think that the random fractal system is ok. I just believe that it could be better to have a non-random fractal system in addition to that. Because I am tired of cliffside, uncategorized and the swamp, but I would love to see thaumanova sometime. (And for some reason, I never get that one)

And the more we play fractals, the more frustrating it will become, since in the future, new fractals get a smaller chance of popping up per run, unless they take some of the older fractals out of the pool.

I think we could have both the current system and a ‘reliable’ explorable version of fractals of the mists. Where the old system is kept running by the level-up system , the reward scheme and ofcourse future additions, perhaps direct copies from ‘explorable fractals’.

Asko.4120:

—
And as it has been said many times already by many players, agony is a pointless gearcheck mechanic unless it is drastically reworked:
I’d suggest removing the agony resistance altogether and adding 4 stages to all the boss fights instead with hindurances that pile on each other.
Example:

Boss HP 100-75% – normal fighting
Boss HP 75-50% – endurance regen is reduced by X
Boss HP 50-25% – movement speed is reduced by X, previous effect is stronger
Boss HP 25-0% – weapon skills recharge rate reduced by X, previous effects are stronger

Tbh the examples I came up with are not that good or interesting, but you get the idea. This way agony would require players to adapt their playing style, use dodges and skills very sparingly and mind their positioning better, meaning that agony is now a skill-check mechanic instead of gearcheck.

In my opinion that is horrible encounter design. At start when everyone is alive and at full health the encounter is easy. Then when your health drops and you have skills on cooldown it gets harder. So you have an easy start and a hard end.

If you can complete the encounter then the start is really boring because you are capable of doing it when it’s harder. If you have issues with the hard part then you have to keep grinding the easy part so you can practice (fail) the hard part. In both cases, it’s just waste of a time.

Ideally an encounter would be so hard at the start that people would get downed and even defeated. And then when the players are struggling it would be bit easier. Could be quite easily done with devastating skills with long cooldowns.

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

My revised opinion is that we’re mired in trivia.

…Adding shinies to a vendor, fiddling with average clear times of this single fractal or that one, slamming shut a tiny loophole…

It’s trivia. These are all things that should be done, but they’re neither difficult nor important.

The main thing that’s going to keep fractals vibrant is adding more scenarios.

New Content will drive the continued use of fractals far more than polish.

i get what you are saying, but you are really underestimating reward value in game design. Content is important but without the right reward structure, you will not support your content properly. You have to structure your rewards so they encourage the type of play you design, and you also have to structure it to reinforce your game goals.

Right now, even if they make an awesome, variable fractal, if its 2 minutes longer than swamp, no one will play it more than once. If they add some very fun interesting variable events/elements to a fractal, people will sigh with annoyance after the first time, because it takes longer, and they just want to get their daily done. If they decide to award relics, people who have backpiece already will have no use.

reward is an integral part of the game design itself.

so i think evolving fractals, they need to come up with a better reward design (not exactly about what the rewards are, but more about what type of play is rewarded, and how to measure what reward is deserved)

in the evolution of fractals, i can see more diverse game modes, (which adds more, for less development) more diversity in fractals, AND new fractals.

Agony resistance is actually working against fractals now, i think. The implementation of aquiring it doesnt work that well, its kind of counter productive, and the way its used, is kind of off. It works as a gate, but its very poor as an interesting game mechanic. In terms of mechanics, the game gets less interesting the more agony you have, instead of more.

I think these are the 3 big problems with fractals, and i think getting them right, will be huge in making fractals much more appealing and loved.

The Lost Witch.7601:

I do fractals every now and then, but I rarely gain levels because the people I play with don’t have enough fractal relics or ascended items to get enough AR to play at my level. (So I have done a lot of level 1-15 fractals, but I am still only level 27).

Another part of this problem is the existing Infusions. At the moment, you have the choice of either getting +AR infusions, or using infusions that boosts your stats, or even damage for WvW (infusions that boost your stats and give AR cost way too much to be used).
Given the price of ascended stuff, you have to make a choice, and many people just don’t want to dedicate a stuff only for fractals. Most of my guildies play WvW, and almost none of them ever go to fractals, they can’t have AR on their stuff cause they’re using WvW infusions.

phys.7689:

Yes, its like you said, the best way to make a fair competitive test, is for it to be completely uniform. Everyone has the same challenges, the same questions, the same tools. However, thats also not a very repeatable test. Because once people know the answers/way to get the answers, it becomes a test of memorization/speed rather than a test of intelligence/adaptability.

It however is probably a way more competitive test, than one where the questions were random, some people would get easy questions, or things they happen to know well.

Essentially i think that something designed to be fair in a competitive way, cant be very variable. but competitive and challenging/interesting are two different things. For example.
A fair competitive test in basketball might be shooting from a specific location repeatedly.
A variable/challenging/replayable one might be scoring versus any player on the opposing team.

The second test is a lot less fair, not a great way to compare to other shooters, but its a lot more variable, every time you do its different, and you may have to shoot from different places, different timing, etc.

As far as one well thought out encounter being fun, im saying i think every fractal should be well thought out, every fractal should be fun. But we both know the fun fractal is not necessarily the fractal that is the one that leads to finishing the daily the fastest.

They don’t have to add repeatable tests as they can add multiple tests. Using your basketball example there can be multiple fair and competitive tests. In some tests the basket might be further way while in some tests the basket might be smaller.

I don’t think using other players in your example is really fair as we are dealing with PvE content. Perhaps my example but with randomized parameters is what you are looking for?

In both cases there are lots of different tests. Only difference is that in my case you are able to choose your test. Similarly they could create a system with lots of different content, focusing more on the quality than the quantity (randomization adds more content but less guarantee that every combination works together).

—
Sorry Miku, forums ate my reply and can’t be bothered to rewrite it at the moment (perhaps tomorrow). However, I completely disagree!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Excellent exercise in terms of ‘reduction’ of the proposals and re factoring of your opinion in light of the discussions.

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

Chris

Mines a mix because one without the other won’t really work, Rewards and New fractals/types.

Rewards
A reworked pyramid style reward system for fractals, with new and interesting items.
I.e You must climb the pyramid to reach the shinies, running L10 fractals all day every day won’t let you get it. Most of my reward based proposals were based on this idea.

New Fractals/types
New fractals to stop people getting completely bored of running the sames ones over and over (I made two proposals on these).

New fractal types, The shorter version (The procedurally generated dungeon type one) and the long term version (The tower ascent style one suggested by someone else). Again this is to break up the monotony.

Wethospu.6437:

phys.7689:

Yes, its like you said, the best way to make a fair competitive test, is for it to be completely uniform. Everyone has the same challenges, the same questions, the same tools. However, thats also not a very repeatable test. Because once people know the answers/way to get the answers, it becomes a test of memorization/speed rather than a test of intelligence/adaptability.

It however is probably a way more competitive test, than one where the questions were random, some people would get easy questions, or things they happen to know well.

Essentially i think that something designed to be fair in a competitive way, cant be very variable. but competitive and challenging/interesting are two different things. For example.
A fair competitive test in basketball might be shooting from a specific location repeatedly.
A variable/challenging/replayable one might be scoring versus any player on the opposing team.

The second test is a lot less fair, not a great way to compare to other shooters, but its a lot more variable, every time you do its different, and you may have to shoot from different places, different timing, etc.

As far as one well thought out encounter being fun, im saying i think every fractal should be well thought out, every fractal should be fun. But we both know the fun fractal is not necessarily the fractal that is the one that leads to finishing the daily the fastest.

They don’t have to add repeatable tests as they can add multiple tests. Using your basketball example there can be multiple fair and competitive tests. In some tests the basket might be further way while in some tests the basket might be smaller.

I don’t think using other players in your example is really fair as we are dealing with PvE content. Perhaps my example but with randomized parameters is what you are looking for?

In both cases there are lots of different tests. Only difference is that in my case you are able to choose your test. Similarly they could create a system with lots of different content, focusing more on the quality than the quantity (randomization adds more content but less guarantee that every combination works together).

Well, i think that the random elements they add should be well planned, I think mostly they should be optional or different but roughly equivalent (like some of the different paths the dungeons already can take), and i think they should be designed, not completely or irrationally random. They should also be appropriately rewarded.

For example, a good random element, might be a rare special boss that sometimes pops after your regular boss fight. Or an event that sometimes spawns that creates a shortcut. A skritt burglar boss popping in a side/extra area. As well as things that already exist like the two paths in dredge, or the mossman or bloomhunger, etc.

I am also thinking one of the game modes could be a stripped down, 100% preplanned mode unlocked with high difficulty, Competitive mode, this mode could be used for things like leaderboards, and allow you to select a fractal. The rewards would be more effected by how you place.

Its not that i think preplanned is always more challenging, but i agree that in comparing competitors you need a more standardized ruler. Also people who want top scores will want to preplan a lot.

Optional stuff is completely fine as it can always be skipped.

Sure, random stuff would be designed. But you really can’t expect them to have same quality as non-random stuff, especially if random stuff means extra content.

I think Bloomhunger/Mossman etc. are actually bad. For example Bloomhunger and turret part are much easier than Mossman and bomb part. With some really hard scale and instability some teams may constantly fail at Mossman while they would breeze through Bloomhunger.

Assuming we ever get infinite scaling that would eventually happen to every team in the game. At some point your progression relies entirely on luck…

phys.7689:

i get what you are saying, but you are really underestimating reward value in game design. Content is important but without the right reward structure, you will not support your content properly. You have to structure your rewards so they encourage the type of play you design, and you also have to structure it to reinforce your game goals.

You’re right – I want to incentivize use by people who want to be there because they enjoy fractals gameplay, not open up a new path for optimizing Dragonite-per-second calculations.

Reward-as-motive is inherently limited, because ultimately you achieve your goal(s) and are DONE. Gameplay-as-motive is a vastly more durable model because playing more is the goal. Doing something 200 times because you must to get the reward is grind. Playing a 200th time because you liked the previous 199 outings is the result of rich gameplay. It has a binary impact on whether you’ll play it a 201st time. You can pay someone to play tic-tac-toe 200 times and they’ll do it if the pay is good, no matter how bored off their rump they are. But people will spend their lives mastering chess for no other reason that to master chess.

Every request for revised/improved rewards is a statement “you’re no longer paying me enough to do something repetitive.” I’d like to see the evolution of fractals be more akin to rising from tic-tac-toe towards chess rather than upping the hourly wage…

Nike.2631:

Every request for revised/improved rewards is a statement “you’re no longer paying me enough to do something repetitive.” I’d like to see the evolution of fractals be more akin to rising from tic-tac-toe towards chess rather than upping the hourly wage…

Not really. My group still does fractals because we somewhat enjoy them. However if we want to make money aswell we kind of have to avoid them. Its very frustrating spending 50 mins in fractals only to recieve a few blues and greens. Its also very hard to find extra group members when one of us cant play because noone wants to do fractals with such poor rewards. Making rewards worth the time will bring more players back to fractals and improve the enjoyment and activity.

Other people have posted my thoughts for me by proxy before (TAkittenbeing added back as a fractal and rewards rebalancing) so I’ll sum up the most important issues for the devs to focus on…

1. Rewards (refer to my other post by Tree with how to do it properly)
2. Dredge
3. Opening higher levels

Fix these three and fractals don’t need a lot of the other rather insane over the top suggestions people are making.

Things that are NOT priorities

1. “Rolling”
2. “Obligatory Guardians”
3. Leaderboards

Nike.2631:

Every request for revised/improved rewards is a statement “you’re no longer paying me enough to do something repetitive.” I’d like to see the evolution of fractals be more akin to rising from tic-tac-toe towards chess rather than upping the hourly wage…

That’s just not true, Yes the activity has to be fun , but it does have to have a return also. You need gold to function within the game so there needs to be some gain.
Also rare item hunting is my primary activity, so the rewards are important to me.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

i get what you are saying, but you are really underestimating reward value in game design. Content is important but without the right reward structure, you will not support your content properly. You have to structure your rewards so they encourage the type of play you design, and you also have to structure it to reinforce your game goals.

You’re right – I want to incentivize use by people who want to be there because they enjoy fractals gameplay, not open up a new path for optimizing Dragonite-per-second calculations.

Reward-as-motive is inherently limited, because ultimately you achieve your goal(s) and are DONE. Gameplay-as-motive is a vastly more durable model because playing more is the goal. Doing something 200 times because you must to get the reward is grind. Playing a 200th time because you liked the previous 199 outings is the result of rich gameplay. It has a binary impact on whether you’ll play it a 201st time. You can pay someone to play tic-tac-toe 200 times and they’ll do it if the pay is good, no matter how bored off their rump they are. But people will spend their lives mastering chess for no other reason that to master chess.

Every request for revised/improved rewards is a statement “you’re no longer paying me enough to do something repetitive.” I’d like to see the evolution of fractals be more akin to rising from tic-tac-toe towards chess rather than upping the hourly wage…

Im talking more about reward within the game framework, its not as important what the rewards are, so much as what you give rewards for. For example, if you take basketball (i always seem to use this analogy) if they award 5 points for shots under the basket, and 3 points for long ranged shots (3 point range) then people will not take 3 point shots.

A more exaggerated example would be, lets say you made up basketball rules, its exactly the same except you give 40 points for punching an opponent in the face. Now the game becomes about how many times you can punch someone in the face, regardless of how much fun shooting the ball might be.

Also, since fractals is a game within a game, it unfortunately has to compete with all other activities that award points, IE, few people are going to shoot the ball (play fractals) if you can get 40 points by punching someone in the face (champ train)

So not only does fractals need to choose what behavior to reward within itself, it also needs to balance what it rewards over all compared to other activities.

Now this doesnt mean it needs dragonite, or even gold, It can award other things that have value, but it needs to have competitive rewards.

And whatever rewards it gives, should encourage the type of play they want fractals to have. Right now the reward focus is speed run dailies, if thats not the focus of the mode, they need to alter the rewards to reflect that.

What’s among the most important about rewards is also replayability.

For example, Fractured introduced some new rewards with the exclusive recipes for rune and sigil. Once you get it, this loot has absolutely no value if you get it a second time. All you can do is just destroy it, as not even the merchant will buy it. It’s the same with rings, after a moment they have no value at all (4.95 silver at merchant, yeah !).
Unlike the dungeon token with which you can buy stuff to salvage or use in the mystic forge, you also can’t get with fractal relics things that keep their “value” (backpiece or bags won’t be bought that many times for one player).

Wethospu.6437:

Optional stuff is completely fine as it can always be skipped.

Sure, random stuff would be designed. But you really can’t expect them to have same quality as non-random stuff, especially if random stuff means extra content.

I think Bloomhunger/Mossman etc. are actually bad. For example Bloomhunger and turret part are much easier than Mossman and bomb part. With some really hard scale and instability some teams may constantly fail at Mossman while they would breeze through Bloomhunger.

Assuming we ever get infinite scaling that would eventually happen to every team in the game. At some point your progression relies entirely on luck…

this is why i said, for people like you who want a PVE competitive measuring stick (or leaderboards and the like), they need fixed designs. But that doesnt mean its more challenging because its fixed, just that its a better measuring stick.

While i dont think bloomhunger is an entertaining fight as compared to mossman, lets say it was replaced by a very interesting, fun fight but it was easier/shorter. Does that make it a bad design? not really.

Also, just to be clear, i would design it so that you are missing out by ignoring optional events. There would be no reason to do them if they didnt give something of value. I wouldnt make it required, but id make it worthwhile. Using our current reward structure for reference, id make it have a chance at dropping the things people look for in the daily chest, albeit a lower chance, representitive of how much time/effort it takes.
Say it takes 5 minutes, and a run where you ignore everything takes 60 minutes, give it a 1/12th the rate of the daily chest. if its a specially difficult thing maybe 1/8th or so. It should be something thats exciting, semi rare, when it happens you should be excited for a special opportunity, not an added hassle.

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

My revised opinion is that we’re mired in trivia.

…Adding shinies to a vendor, fiddling with average clear times of this single fractal or that one, slamming shut a tiny loophole…

It’s trivia. These are all things that should be done, but they’re neither difficult nor important.

The main thing that’s going to keep fractals vibrant is adding more scenarios.

New Content will drive the continued use of fractals far more than polish.

Fractals could definitely use more actual fractals, but that wont save fractals. There are a lot of problems with fractals (some since they were added to the game, some added in fractured), and we really can’t have a discussion on evolving them without a discussion on how to fix them. Fractals can’t evolve right now because it’s dying, and it’s dying because anet doesn’t care enough to fix the problems people have with it.

A new fractal would be nice, yeah, but if dredge is still dredge, or if instabilities are still completely out of unbalanced/untested, or if rewards are still worthless, you wont see people stick with it for long. It’ll just be a repeat of Fractured, a lot of people playing for a week, and then even less before the fractal was added to begin with.

Really though, a lot of stuff people have complained about in this thread should have been fixed months ago. It would have been nice to actually talk about the future of fractals instead of having to beg anet to fix the things we’ve been asking to be fixed for months-a year.

Estriella Faerie.4029:

What’s among the most important about rewards is also replayability.

For example, Fractured introduced some new rewards with the exclusive recipes for rune and sigil. Once you get it, this loot has absolutely no value if you get it a second time. All you can do is just destroy it, as not even the merchant will buy it. It’s the same with rings, after a moment they have no value at all (4.95 silver at merchant, yeah !).
Unlike the dungeon token with which you can buy stuff to salvage or use in the mystic forge, you also can’t get with fractal relics things that keep their “value” (backpiece or bags won’t be bought that many times for one player).

the way i see, it one of the best things they can do with fractal rewards is improve fractal relics value.

I also reccomend many of these things of value be account bound, or things mostly fractal users would want. keep in mind anything that isnt account bound, or is used by many players needs to go into the general Economy rewards design, which means its going to have too match the rate of earning most of the game has, instead of what is healthy for fractals.

my principle idea amounts to being able to buy what amounts to second daily chest rolls with fractal relics. Id also make all fractal items be able to be traded in for decent fractal relic conversions. As well as adding more things you can buy with fractal relics

Don’t get me wrong – I think the polishing should be done. I just, in my heart of hearts, can’t believe that it would take more than a day to write the code to kill re-rolling. That it would take more than a day to rip the clown car out of the Underground facility Fractal. That the meetings to review and expand the array of choices for the Fractal vendors drawing on existing assets would take more than 3-4 days of focused analysis. Then yes, all of that has to be tested before being pushed to Live, but ultimately if there was the will, all of the these adjustment would take less time to execute than we’ve spent talking about them .