Guild Wars 2

RollingBob.8502:

This is an A++ post and says it all. The developers just formalized the split between the elitists who would really appreciate the challenge and deserve a special reward for choosing it and the majority who are now finding it even more difficult to get in a group and get to finish the first boss because kicking a downed player is now easier than giving a quick lesson.

You have 8 dungeons to choose from. If you have troubles with completing the almost hardest of them, maybe you should practice running easier dungeons. Once you improve your skills, then you should start running CoE/Arah. Zerg rushing bosses was never a valid tactic, it’s similiar situation when anet fixes exploits and suddenly you can’t beat the boss.

haviz.1340:

RollingBob.8502:

This is an A++ post and says it all. The developers just formalized the split between the elitists who would really appreciate the challenge and deserve a special reward for choosing it and the majority who are now finding it even more difficult to get in a group and get to finish the first boss because kicking a downed player is now easier than giving a quick lesson.

You have 8 dungeons to choose from. If you have troubles with completing the almost hardest of them, maybe you should practice running easier dungeons. Once you improve your skills, then you should start running CoE/Arah. Zerg rushing bosses was never a valid tactic, it’s similiar situation when anet fixes exploits and suddenly you can’t beat the boss.

I’m sorry I missed the part where i named any specific dungeon or where I noted that I personally was having issues staying alive. Care to point that out in my post?

RollingBob.8502:

I’m sorry I missed the part where i named any specific dungeon or where I noted that I personally was having issues staying alive. Care to point that out in my post?

You were responding to a guy saying Alpha is impossible when I was told yesterday by a friend that he is now almost faceroll. Doing path 1 in 13 minutes is almost similiar to CoF1 and I don’t see people asking to nerf that path.

i agree with nickchabby on the whole very good idea of having different lvl’s like fractels for varying degrees of difficulty for the really skilled players and not so skilled.Or have a 2 tier system where players can use the old rez rush system and the ones who are the elitist can use this no waypoint one i for one prefer the old system it was hard enough but not too hard so you could have fun !

Ioflux.4369:

NickChabby.8907:

snip

Driving license tests auto fail you for making critical mistakes. Yes you can make mistakes and still pass (equivalence of taking a hit and not dying) but you can also fail for not bringing your A-game. Bell-curved grading for grad school entrance exams. You arent graded for how well you do, you’re graded how well you compare to other examinees. You may fail for making 2-4 mistakes or for just not being as creative for essays.

This move by A-net is basically telling players that in order to do dungeons, you must complete it under these circumstances. By doing this, they are pushing the players to become more knowledgable and competent to make use of the mechanics given to them to clear encounters. You are given an infinite amount of tries to learn from your mistakes for a small price of a repair bill + your time. Other places make you pay thousands of dollars to attempt at proving you learned your lesson.

Couldnt have said it better!

haviz.1340:

RollingBob.8502:

This is an A++ post and says it all. The developers just formalized the split between the elitists who would really appreciate the challenge and deserve a special reward for choosing it and the majority who are now finding it even more difficult to get in a group and get to finish the first boss because kicking a downed player is now easier than giving a quick lesson.

You have 8 dungeons to choose from. If you have troubles with completing the almost hardest of them, maybe you should practice running easier dungeons. Once you improve your skills, then you should start running CoE/Arah. Zerg rushing bosses was never a valid tactic, it’s similiar situation when anet fixes exploits and suddenly you can’t beat the boss.

That’s a total non sense answer.

Dungeons are beaten because players know the events and strategies unique to that dungeon. Running other easier dungeons would do NOTHING to teach new players on how to beat the dungeon they want to go to.

And frankly, it’s not a simple matter of improving skills, people just simply refuse to realize that fact.

Some people will be bad no matter what happens, and if they solely bare the burden of that I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

The problem is when you have BAD players the whole team suffers, while previously a bad player is an annoyance now you basically have to waste time to kick them and find someone else or fail the instance.

mugsmoney.5239:

Ioflux.4369:

NickChabby.8907:

snip

Driving license tests auto fail you for making critical mistakes. Yes you can make mistakes and still pass (equivalence of taking a hit and not dying) but you can also fail for not bringing your A-game. Bell-curved grading for grad school entrance exams. You arent graded for how well you do, you’re graded how well you compare to other examinees. You may fail for making 2-4 mistakes or for just not being as creative for essays.

This move by A-net is basically telling players that in order to do dungeons, you must complete it under these circumstances. By doing this, they are pushing the players to become more knowledgable and competent to make use of the mechanics given to them to clear encounters. You are given an infinite amount of tries to learn from your mistakes for a small price of a repair bill + your time. Other places make you pay thousands of dollars to attempt at proving you learned your lesson.

Couldnt have said it better!

That’s a flawed analogy.

Driving tests are failed due to PERSONAL failure.

A failed team can result from the failures of others.

You are collectively punished for the failures of a few.

You can be the best player ever and have the best possible gear and your team will fail if you have bad players in it.

Previously this was an annoyance, since you can still use wp and tough it out with repair costs.

Now it’s a brick wall, forcing you to waste time to kick people and find others and in general this promotes rage and mistrust.

I already see ads on gw2lfg for dungeon groups requiring linking of all gear and specific trait/class builds for group because of this patch.

Best player =/= Best skilled. The best player will guide any team to victory. I don’t just belittle my party in hopes thatll make them better to beat an encounter. I adjust my playstyle to compensate. There are good players and great players. I don’t hate on casuals or pugs, but I do like smooth, consistent, and efficient runs. I do hate on complainers who rather cry for nerfs rather than wanting to become better.

PS: I pugged arah path 4 exp for 6hrs to get my DM title. Ive ran it with an efficient team in under 1hr. We didnt use zerg rushing to clear anything.

DeathPanel.8362:

That’s a total non sense answer.

Dungeons are beaten because players know the events and strategies unique to that dungeon. Running other easier dungeons would do NOTHING to teach new players on how to beat the dungeon they want to go to.

And frankly, it’s not a simple matter of improving skills, people just simply refuse to realize that fact.

Some people will be bad no matter what happens, and if they solely bare the burden of that I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

The problem is when you have BAD players the whole team suffers, while previously a bad player is an annoyance now you basically have to waste time to kick them and find someone else or fail the instance.

Harder dungeons have bosses with more difficult mechanics, it’s rather simple. Check Kholer → Alphard. Dodging Kholer’s pull is a piece of cake for most of the playerbase, dodging Alphard’s pulls is rather a rare occurance.

How bad player drags you down now and wasn’t doing it before?

If bad player drags whole team down that’s absolutely fantastic. That’s exactly how it should be.
I find the whole idea absurd that you can quite freely carry bads in your team. How is that supposed to be challenging?

And by the way you bads who are complaining probably caused this by your “graveyard-zerg”-tactics.

But I must say I find it bit annoying that I can’t use WP’s even when alive (but I understand this is to prevent people logging-off).

And again, if you have issues look for guides or ask for help (message me here or in-game).

DeathPanel.8362:

That’s a flawed analogy.

Driving tests are failed due to PERSONAL failure.

Not flawed, analogy still applies, though you are correct in that instead of 1 person deciding the outcome, 5 people decide the outcome together as a team. But the 5 of them are 1 unit really.

Now, the devs can make 1-man dungeons to offset team based mistakes, or you work and communicate better with your team to reduce mistakes made by 5 people combined.

Adding in crutches to offset other team member’s skill (ex: WP ressing) is something that ANet can add in if they so wish, so that way you are not relying on your teammates for success, but I hugely disagree that they should.

A failed team can result from the failures of others.

You are collectively punished for the failures of a few.

You can be the best player ever and have the best possible gear and your team will fail if you have bad players in it.

That is the entire point of a team

So your wanting either a 1-man dungeon, or for a way to reward individual players based on… what? Amount of damage avoided by dodges? Whether they stayed above 75% health during the fight? You need to elaborate here.

But…. would they do this in team-based sports? Does the best skilled quarterback get a trophy if his team plays poorly and they lose every game? I mean, individually, he is the best skilled player around and should be rewarded, but unless his team works together, no, he does not get rewarded individually. Only when the team, as 1 whole unit winning, does he individually get rewarded.

Any team-based project (whether is it a group school project, a work project for a team, in a team based sport, etc..) requires the team, as 1 unit, to SUCCEED or FAIL.

Remember that saying? There is no I in TEAM?

And yes, you will be punished individually if the team fails. Thats what comes part and parcel when you are part of a team.

So either be a part of the team, or opt out.
Its not up to the ANet to pat you on the back and reward you, cause you, individually, did well while the rest of your team did bad.

Find teammates who are as skilled as you and play with them, help those teammates who are bad (and no, yelling at them does not build teamwork), or dont do dungeons.

Selfishness has no place in a team here.

And lastly, ANet’s philosophy was that dungeons were intended for skilled groups working together. Casuals and pugs were never intended to be the main style of players for them (though, if a pug can work together… all power to them)

I.E. Dungeons are to PvE, what tPvP is to PvP. Intended for skilled players

poisonedsodapop.9348:

I get the changes, I really do. What I don’t get is the reason they would remove the waypoints before implementing other changes. For instance, ok you don’t like the lack of teamwork. But why can’t we res our party members? Maybe they’re new and they don’t know how the fight is fought. You can explain something but actually experiencing it is the best way to understand. Maybe they’re actually level 35 in a level 35 exploreable and not geared in full 80 exotic stuff. Maybe it’s a party of all elementalists who only know each other and don’t want to pug. The thing is sometimes when someone goes down, they go down and there’s no saving them.

I think most people’s major gripe with this is that instead of removing the ACTUAL issues (balance issues, hp sponge bosses, “overpowered” bosses, etc) that caused people to glitch and waypoint instead of ressing someone Anet just shut down the one method that actually gave players a chance of not wiping and being able to survive the dungeon.

I think what needs to be done is to actually test the dungeons how they were “intended” to be played. Get some people to run AC explore in an all 35 party, and the same with all the dungeons. Maybe get them some bad gear even to really emphasize what a pug is. What a person new to dungeons is. That will truly help Anet understand where the problems lie in their dungeons.

I know when I started doing explorable dungeons I did them for gear as a badly armored level 80 with my guild who didn’t particularly know exactly how the dungeons were run. It was tough but having the ability to run back saved us many times. If it weren’t for that I probably would have given up on doing dungeons. I think that’s where we’re headed now.

This ^^.

I’ve said if before and I’ll repeat until I’m blue in the face: your content design is broken if Lvl35 players with Lvl35 skills in ‘Average’ (mix of blue/green and MAYBE a yellow) and with ‘average’ player abilities can’t finish it. The content is ALSO broken if an elite team of Lvl80 players outfitted in Exotic/Legendary gear can finish the content in less than %80 of the time it takes the lower level players.

PS: For those that would like the dungeons to be even harder I have two very easy simple suggestions: 1 – take a group of lower level players in or 2 – there is nothing stopping you from actually USING Lvl specific gear even if your a Lvl80! Go purchase a set of WHITE Armor/Weapons and join a PUG of lower level toons and see how CHALLENGING the dungeons are then.

Wethospu.6437:

If bad player drags whole team down that’s absolutely fantastic. That’s exactly how it should be.
I find the whole idea absurd that you can quite freely carry bads in your team. How is that supposed to be challenging?

What if someone is new and doesn’t know the mechanics? Let me anticipate some of your rebuttals:
1) The team can res. Have you tried reviving a player from defeated? Takes kittening ages, not to mention the very noticeable 1-second lag when you hit dodge. More often than not, a defeated player stays defeated. This is especially relevant when the boss is at low health because it is much more efficient to burst the boss down and res after.
2) Reset the boss. Which group will reset a boss halfway through so one player can run back? You won’t get this in a pug, and I am even reluctant to do this in a guild run.

This waypoint update imposes a utilitarian mindset to dungeon runs where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. One person is defeated? 4-man the boss, it’s faster to kill and subsequently res. Four people is defeated? Last guy needs to either die or reset because he won’t be of use by himself.

I love taking new (or bad, to help them improve) people through dungeons. I play on SBI, and the more people I can help gear out and move to WvW the better. However, I only have a certain amount of time I can play and my priority is to maximize my own utility. Because each run with inexperienced players take longer, I have a disincentive to take them.

If you have a consistent dungeon group and manage to res all downed players, I applaud your fortune. This update does not affect you in any way. In that sense, you should be indifferent if the patch was reversed.

If you are new and don’t know mechanics then ask for advice or use guides. It’s really simple. If you want to figure stuff out by yourself then you will most likely be a huge burden to your group anyways.

Yes, this change causes downtime if you get defeated. Yes, it’s not very fun to lie on ground with nothing to do. But the idea is to work as a team. If you happen to get downed your team should be there to get you up, perhaps even use a skill for it. Getting defeated should mean failure, not just a little drawback.

Updates forces you to take care of your teammates and that’s a good thing.
And I run mostly with pugs.

Its a good start. Dungeons feel a bit more polished and less zergy, but I think they still have a long way to go. Fractals are amazing.

It’s my hope that eventually regular dungeons are brought into line with Fractals in terms of balance and scaling difficulty/rewards.

Mira.4071:

Its a good start. Dungeons feel a bit more polished and less zergy, but I think they still have a long way to go. Fractals are amazing.

It’s my hope that eventually regular dungeons are brought into line with Fractals in terms of balance and scaling difficulty/rewards.

Fractals are far from being amazing. Some classes’ survivability depends on things that some creatures are immune to, how’s that good balance?

Wethospu.6437:

Updates forces you to take care of your teammates and that’s a good thing.
And I run mostly with pugs.

A good group already focuses on bringing downed people back. Pre-update, it was possible to work with a couple of not-so-competent players without having the run become a significant time sink.

The point that I’m trying to illustrate is, barring a few good souls, there is a disincentive for most to take inexperienced party members because of the increase in expected completion time. The amount of preparation (which itself is ludicrous in a game touted to be good, casual fun) becomes irrelevant if new players are not taken along on runs.

Yams.6082:

The point that I’m trying to illustrate is, barring a few good souls, there is a disincentive for most to take inexperienced party members because of the increase in expected completion time.

Yes, while it does make players wary a bit on who they will take, this is a good thing.

You wouldnt take just anyone in tPvP without knowing their skill level, if you wanted to win the tourney or match, would you?

The amount of preparation (which itself is ludicrous in a game touted to be good, casual fun) becomes irrelevant if new players are not taken along on runs.

Dungeons are for the non-casual crowd, for the few players that want a challenging game. Everything else in the game is for casuals.

New players will get their chances as well, they are not fully barred from participating.

Not every level 80 in dungeon exotics are selfish pricks, and GW2LFG is still showing many groups available