“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
Carried Players
Why have stats on gear though?
Why not just expand the rune/sigil system for armor and weapons and let your abilities be fully dictated by traits?
[snip]
Probably to late for Anet to even consider this,
Wouldn’t really change anything anyway, if we got the same state boost from the Traits and such as we now get from gear now.
[snip]
It would just end up being the same like now.
Player’s would still mostly stick to the traits/runes/sigils, which are widely considered “optimal”.
Not to mention how much it would make non-PvE content very one-dimensional.
I’m remembering it, like it was yesterday, when anet proudly stated, that for each dungeon and path, there is an “optimal” composition of classes and builds, which needs to be used with high amount of communication and tactic.
Well…
[EU/GER]Elona’s Reach: Aerrith: Lv80 Ranger / Sephirra: Lv80 Mesmer
“Only the finest of potatoes in my zerkburgers.”
“Only the finest of potatoes in my zerkburgers.”
Why have stats on gear though?
Why not just expand the rune/sigil system for armor and weapons and let your abilities be fully dictated by traits?
[snip]
Probably to late for Anet to even consider this,
Wouldn’t really change anything anyway, if we got the same state boost from the Traits and such as we now get from gear now.
[snip]
It would just end up being the same like now.
Player’s would still mostly stick to the traits/runes/sigils, which are widely considered “optimal”.Not to mention how much it would make non-PvE content very one-dimensional.
I’m remembering it, like it was yesterday, when anet proudly stated, that for each dungeon and path, there is an “optimal” composition of classes and builds, which needs to be used with high amount of communication and tactic.
Well…
Pretty much
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
Why have stats on gear though?
Why not just expand the rune/sigil system for armor and weapons and let your abilities be fully dictated by traits?
[snip]
Probably to late for Anet to even consider this,
Wouldn’t really change anything anyway, if we got the same state boost from the Traits and such as we now get from gear now.
[snip]
It would just end up being the same like now.
Player’s would still mostly stick to the traits/runes/sigils, which are widely considered “optimal”.Not to mention how much it would make non-PvE content very one-dimensional.
I’m remembering it, like it was yesterday, when anet proudly stated, that for each dungeon and path, there is an “optimal” composition of classes and builds, which needs to be used with high amount of communication and tactic.
Well…
My main issue is that toughness and vitality are disconnected from your abilities, your active offense and defence, in a game that promotes more timing from dodges and timing on activation of abilities as its ideal.
The idea behind more reliance on traits, sigils and runes, and the complete elimination of stat boosts from trait lines and runes, was that at least in this case, your active abilities would all be affected by your decisions, as I would hope the traits under this system would be even more substantial than the current traits available to us, and the runes and sigils would be used to complement your chosen style, with the ability to have a whole armory of variously socketed weapons and armor at your disposal for collecting.
Damage can be callibrated to compensate for the stat change.
Traits that enhance offensive and defensive capabilities, and affects on utilities, would be applied in ways that would enhance your abilities not by increasing stats, but by adding buffs which lead to greater damage or usefulness, like a trait which allowed for an occasional extra swing of a weapon, or an extra activation of aegis when hit . Just things similar to what we have now, but with more thought put into it throughout whole trees, as they would be an even greater basis for how your character will play.
But you’re right in that the heart of the issue is that some abilities will just not be useful because encounter design works in such a way that some strategies work so optimally that there will be a preferred meta. I just make the argument for getting rid of stats because at least under that system, all the traits would ideally be used to affect your attacks and utilities in some form or another.
In other words, at least your ACTIVE abilities would be molded by all of your available choices, rather than having choices disconnected from the current system in place.
Also, if healing power is not going to be scaled up to allow for properly healing others, it should at least instead have more traits and runes available to make your heals add extra effects that can further aid yourself or your allies. This exists in the game, of course, but there is room for more. Maybe even in a way that scales with healing power?
I really would prefer to have toughness and vitality play a role in our active defenses though, and to have healing scale up a bit more. I feel it would add avenues of growth for further encounter design in the game’s future, and promote the likes of Soldier and Nomad gear from ‘safety net’ and ‘useless’ respectively (in popular perception) to ‘path of mastery’.
Just a way to project those stats outward in some meaningful fashion, instead of just letting you get hit more, would help in better rounding the stat experience in the game. I do recognise that the game still has hurdles in regards to its balance and design that would require much more work to fix, and I hope Anet is considering ways to change things up within the system they already have.
(edited by Croc.5129)
Two words: jarring transition.
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
now tell me which one is best in Mario Kart?
snes: toad
64: yoshi
You don’t do game design 101 in a project like this, you go beyond the average 1990 arcade game.
No stopping you eh? At least you didn’t make a complete fool of yourself by saying 90s.
Game design doesn’t seem to mean what you think it means.
average anything is bad. that’s why it’s average. in any year. ever.
I really would prefer to have toughness and vitality play a role in our active defenses though, and to have healing scale up a bit more. I feel it would add avenues of growth for further encounter design in the game’s future, and promote the likes of Soldier and Nomad gear from ‘safety net’ and ‘useless’ respectively (in popular perception) to ‘path of mastery’.
And just why exactly should gear stats that let you afk eat hits be the optimal gear for anything?
Is soaking hits more skillful or more interesting or something? Like idk, I feel if you go full glass you should be rewarded accordingly, which this game does, or like what every MMO does where you run the very bare minimum of tanks and healers necessary. A really basic example is that the first dungeon in ArcheAge is something you can clear with three DPS but sure, you can use a tank + 2 DPS or whatever. But if you can handle it, 3 DPS is cool.
Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes
I really would prefer to have toughness and vitality play a role in our active defenses though, and to have healing scale up a bit more. I feel it would add avenues of growth for further encounter design in the game’s future, and promote the likes of Soldier and Nomad gear from ‘safety net’ and ‘useless’ respectively (in popular perception) to ‘path of mastery’.
And just why exactly should gear stats that let you afk eat hits be the optimal gear for anything?
Is soaking hits more skillful or more interesting or something? Like idk, I feel if you go full glass you should be rewarded accordingly, which this game does, or like what every MMO does where you run the very bare minimum of tanks and healers necessary. A really basic example is that the first dungeon in ArcheAge is something you can clear with three DPS but sure, you can use a tank + 2 DPS or whatever. But if you can handle it, 3 DPS is cool.
Everybody knows standing there and tanking hits because you’re afk, too lazy to use active defense, or clueless as to the mechanics is far more skillful play than having to know the mechanics and use active defense while attentively playing. Since tanking hits in this manner is vastly more skillful than the alternatives, it should definitely be more rewarding.
I feel this video clearly demonstrates why non-damage gear is more skillful than anything else out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo
I mean really, look at that. It’s sped up (and a bit dated), but since the fight took about 35 minutes real time, there’s a LOT of possible room for mishap. For example, he could have fallen asleep, or the “1” key on the keyboard could have ceased to function from all that repeated pressing, requiring some fast reaction to clicking the “1” skill instead before complete disaster.
#Nomads4Lyfe
I really would prefer to have toughness and vitality play a role in our active defenses though, and to have healing scale up a bit more. I feel it would add avenues of growth for further encounter design in the game’s future, and promote the likes of Soldier and Nomad gear from ‘safety net’ and ‘useless’ respectively (in popular perception) to ‘path of mastery’.
And just why exactly should gear stats that let you afk eat hits be the optimal gear for anything?
Because the stats do not jive well with the rest of the design philosophy of the game. They are a choice, and if Anet does not want to work to make the choices actually optimal in some form, then they should not bother.
Who here actually enjoys having gear that you can point to and say they’re only for use until you get better?
And the exact problem I have is that toughness and vitality do nothing BUT allow you to swallow extra hits. Why in the world can they not make your abilities more powerful too, like actually make your active defenses more powerful in some way? Make it interesting by encouraging more uses of better shields, counters, boons, etc, instead of just making you take more hits.
In a well designed game, you would not be able to just sit back, afk, and eat the hits, even with the extra durability. You will be able to naturally take more hits as a consequence of the stats, just like power makes your auto-attacks do more damage as a consequence of its effects, but without proper ability usage, you still end up dead.
I feel this video clearly demonstrates why non-damage gear is more skillful than anything else out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo
I feel that the boss needs to be more dynamic to avoid being cheesed like this.
The spider should have more tools to counter just being wacked in the face, and the player should have more interesting avenues to using those stats besides just getting hit more. Healing power being able to keep you up is one thing, but the boss needs ways to counter that stream of healing that the player would need to pay attention to. Then crush them for not paying attention.
In that situation, player with high healing power can take care of the damage from regular poison and normal attacks where others would need to cleanse more and not get hit, but spider will bum rush them, web them up, put down an even more damaging fields of corrosion, all good things to get them to move about and pay attention, because all the healing in the world will not help if you’re overwhelmed.
Why is the promotion of variety such a bad thing? Power, Precision and Ferocity work so well because they feed into the effects of your damaging skills and utilities. Why can’t toughness and vitality do the same for their own appropriate abilities? Why are they stats if they don’t follow the same design philosophy which supports the active gameplay of the game?
A real choice between having to beef up your active offensive capability or your active defensive capability would make for more interesting interplay than just putting on the best dps gear possible and not having to worry about the effects on your utilities.
I don’t care that dps players can clear dungeons more quickly, I care that the other options are just so dang uninteresting because of their disconnect from your character’s abilities.
(edited by Croc.5129)
So, maybe tanky gear increases the effect of active defenses. Immobilize lasts longer. Reflects last longer. Blocks take more hits. Blinds can effect multiple attacks. Tanky gear is still suboptimal in nearly every situation ever, which is everywhere it’s still currently suboptimal. All you’re doing is making low skill easy mode even easier to be an unattentive player wearing tanky gear. Since your active defenses are much better, you need to worry less about appropriately using them. This isn’t a compelling choice, or an interesting addition. It’s utterly useless, and counterproductive to helping players take off the training wheels that are tanky gear. (And the PvPers will thank you for making bunker builds, which lead to such compelling, engaging, and skillful gameplay, insanely more effective)
Maybe, instead, tanky gear decreases the cooldown of active defenses. Great idea, you say! Except now, all active defenses are more spammable. Most fights are too short for this to ever matter, so for those, you’ve done absolutely nothing at all. Some fights are long enough where this could help. Except, you’ve just now made those longer fights require less coordination among team members. Good job with that. Again, you’re not creating a compelling choice, or promoting good gameplay here. You’re making it harder for people to take the training wheels off.
Remember, one of the core design philosophies of GW2 is that you can complete all content in any gear. Which means you’ve got to allow content to be completable by someone with zero additional passive defense above baseline, and no ‘bonus’ active defense.
What kind of compelling, interesting choices do you imagine tanky gear could actually provide in a game with the core design philosophy that GW2 has?
Immobilize is a condition, not affected by defensive stats.
Reflects would still need to be used properly or be wasted.
Blocks will run out, and need to be employed properly.
Blind is a condition, not affected by defensive stats.
Cooldown reduction should be the realm of traits, not stats, just like now. I never even considered that an option.
That being said, when I started thinking about the ways that the game could make tanky gear a more compelling choice, I realised that it would require far too many changes to the base game design itself and the way abilities currently function. Reflects, boons, weapon interactions, addition of new character parameters to be affected by stats. It would suit my desires, but it would be a different game.
I don’t like the way the game is now, I find it shallow and unrewarding, but just because I don’t enjoy the game does not mean others can’t enjoy what they have.
Different tastes.
I still think making stats available to players based on gear was a mistake when taking the design philosophy into consideration, and a focus on traits would have been ideal. Gear type should never end up in a situation where it is considered training wheels for another set of gear. But I think I just don’t care any more.
The way the game is now, no, there are not any really compelling options to work with. You’d have to be a counter attacker and buffer right now, but that still does not resolve the offensive playstyle which all builds should have be able to support. And just reacting to enemy attacks is dull. Having those stats turn into compelling offensive options would require an overhaul to the game itself.
Just not for me, I guess.
now tell me which one is best in Mario Kart?
snes: toad
64: yoshi
Thank you for making my point. In no case the fastest is the best and the “balanced” exceed because the tracks are designed in a way where you need every “stat” and they all sum to be the best (stats being acceleration, agility, final speed, you know…). Balanced stats in one character works best since its a “single” competition. GW2 is about teams, why not design it in a way where all “builds” are needed to really exceed? I’ll tell you why: level design is not an easy task and the more variables you add the harder it gets and GW2 has quite a lot of variables, but that is their own challenge. One (IMO) they failed at.
You don’t do game design 101 in a project like this, you go beyond the average 1990 arcade game.
No stopping you eh? At least you didn’t make a complete fool of yourself by saying 90s.
Game design doesn’t seem to mean what you think it means.
average anything is bad. that’s why it’s average. in any year. ever.
First, I don’t see how while generalizing saying 90s would make me a fool? maybe its a local thing in US, I don’t know. Care to elaborate? I could’ve said the 90s or the 80s, no difference really, it’s an example.
I’ve been working in some projects as game designer myself, all amateur; but still, I know what it is about. I’d love to see GW2 GDD and see how many inconsistencies and turns around they had since they started, specially since released which is kinda worst.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
I’ll never understand why supposedly competent players want tanky gear to be good or optimal or whatever. Who cares what the name attached to your gear is? The only logical explanation I can come up with is they want to roleplay as a tanky character but they also want to feel effective in groups when they do, and it irks them that their roleplay desires conflict with the game design.
If there is another coherent narrative I’d love to hear it.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Tanky gear is meaningless what should be meaningfull would be the ability to play glass cannon on just any build. Why cant i run glassy with everythiiing whyyyyy x.x
Honestly you may not understand that feeling because you may or may not have played the first game but when your used to deal massive damage with pet and be loved in teams (guild wars 2 minion master and beastmasters or spirit spammer) You just cant go back to behing some kind of dismal damage specialisation who spam an auto attack.
Many nostalgic build died with the new game or became close to useless due to how the game stat were attributed. Those who still seeks those nostalgic feeling are simply put given a punch to the face.
SoS ritualist and the true minion master rest in peace.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
I couldn’t care less for tanky gear in a game with no tanks… I blame ANet for introducing tank stats in the first place, its a huge inconsistency. I really don’t get the logic there…
Designer1: “Lets do a game with no tanks”
eveyrone: “Agreed!”
Designer2: “Lets put tank stats on gear”
everyone: on drugs, can’t reply
(before someone comes with the training wheels excuse… find me a “training wheels gear” feature explained before release)
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
Honestly you may not understand that feeling because you may or may not have played the first game but when your used to deal massive damage with pet and be loved in teams (guild wars 2 minion master and beastmasters or spirit spammer) You just cant go back to behing some kind of dismal damage specialisation who spam an auto attack.
Many nostalgic build died with the new game or became close to useless due to how the game stat were attributed. Those who still seeks those nostalgic feeling are simply put given a punch to the face.
SoS ritualist and the true minion master rest in peace.
I played GW1 and minion master and ranger beastmasters were horrible there too.
So Kyubi wants tanky stats to be good for “nostalgia” purposes.
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
It’s really good to know that my conclusion (people wanting tanky stats to be good have irrational reasons) is correct.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
(before someone comes with the training wheels excuse… find me a “training wheels gear” feature explained before release)
It’s self-evident. If you fresh install the game at launch and you die alot you will add tankier gear. If you don’t die alot your natural inclination will be to experiment by adding DPS gear. I don’t know how you can fail to see the intention there.
Did they envision a state of the game where 99% of the player base ran full DPS gear in pve? Doubtful. But then again I don’t think they envisions a state of the game where there was no new dungeon/challenging content for over a year, either.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Honestly you may not understand that feeling because you may or may not have played the first game but when your used to deal massive damage with pet and be loved in teams (guild wars 2 minion master and beastmasters or spirit spammer) You just cant go back to behing some kind of dismal damage specialisation who spam an auto attack.
Many nostalgic build died with the new game or became close to useless due to how the game stat were attributed. Those who still seeks those nostalgic feeling are simply put given a punch to the face.
SoS ritualist and the true minion master rest in peace.
I played GW1 and minion master and ranger beastmasters were horrible there too.
So Kyubi wants tanky stats to be good for “nostalgia” purposes.
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
It’s really good to know that my conclusion (people wanting tanky stats to be good have irrational reasons) is correct.
Because Aura of the lich and signet of spirit doesnt get stuff done everywhere? Troll spotted. I dont give a heck about tanky stat i want a glass cannon summoner style with 0 armor and pure damage.
Also horrible damage to beastmaster? Say that again to my 200 damage hits. I dont think youve played realy long if thats the conclusion you got because BM can easily compete with dervish and sins on a single target damage basis all while providing a somewhat immortal unit that has no death penalty and can be rezed at will.
Theres a good reason why signet of spirit ritualist and minions masters where near mendatory to successfull group runs.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
You hit for 200 a pop? Wut.
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
brutal strike with increased attack speed, damage bonus and heal as one life leech damage bonus per hit does wonders you know. Brutal strike like final trust deals very high damage http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Brutal_Strike and as a mather of fact has only 5 second cooldown.
heal as one adding a good 21 damage and adding feral agression +10 base damage to the formula you got an axe warrior on steroids that heals like crazy has the maximum attack speed bonus and cause conditions while behing able to ressurect every single 8 seconds.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Honestly you may not understand that feeling because you may or may not have played the first game but when your used to deal massive damage with pet and be loved in teams (guild wars 2 minion master and beastmasters or spirit spammer) You just cant go back to behing some kind of dismal damage specialisation who spam an auto attack.
Many nostalgic build died with the new game or became close to useless due to how the game stat were attributed. Those who still seeks those nostalgic feeling are simply put given a punch to the face.
SoS ritualist and the true minion master rest in peace.
I played GW1 and minion master and ranger beastmasters were horrible there too.
So Kyubi wants tanky stats to be good for “nostalgia” purposes.
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
It’s really good to know that my conclusion (people wanting tanky stats to be good have irrational reasons) is correct.
Because Aura of the lich and signet of spirit doesnt get stuff done everywhere? Troll spotted. I dont give a heck about tanky stat i want a glass cannon summoner style with 0 armor and pure damage.
Also horrible damage to beastmaster? Say that again to my 200 damage hits. I dont think youve played realy long if thats the conclusion you got because BM can easily compete with dervish and sins on a single target damage basis all while providing a somewhat immortal unit that has no death penalty and can be rezed at will.
Theres a good reason why signet of spirit ritualist and minions masters where near mendatory to successfull group runs.
Guy who can’t read spotted. I didn’t say SoS was bad. SoS is party of the meta. Ranger beastmaster and aura of the lich builds are not. besides this is off topic anyway. Who cares about your AFK to win gw1 builds we are talking about gw2.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Honestly you may not understand that feeling because you may or may not have played the first game but when your used to deal massive damage with pet and be loved in teams (guild wars 2 minion master and beastmasters or spirit spammer) You just cant go back to behing some kind of dismal damage specialisation who spam an auto attack.
Many nostalgic build died with the new game or became close to useless due to how the game stat were attributed. Those who still seeks those nostalgic feeling are simply put given a punch to the face.
SoS ritualist and the true minion master rest in peace.
I played GW1 and minion master and ranger beastmasters were horrible there too.
So Kyubi wants tanky stats to be good for “nostalgia” purposes.
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
It’s really good to know that my conclusion (people wanting tanky stats to be good have irrational reasons) is correct.
Because Aura of the lich and signet of spirit doesnt get stuff done everywhere? Troll spotted. I dont give a heck about tanky stat i want a glass cannon summoner style with 0 armor and pure damage.
Also horrible damage to beastmaster? Say that again to my 200 damage hits. I dont think youve played realy long if thats the conclusion you got because BM can easily compete with dervish and sins on a single target damage basis all while providing a somewhat immortal unit that has no death penalty and can be rezed at will.
Theres a good reason why signet of spirit ritualist and minions masters where near mendatory to successfull group runs.
Guy who can’t read spotted. I didn’t say SoS was bad. SoS is party of the meta. Ranger beastmaster and aura of the lich builds are not. besides this is off topic anyway. Who cares about your AFK to win gw1 builds we are talking about gw2.
Doesnt seem like im the only one who cant read because you asume witheout reading or so it would seem that i want tanky stat builds when i clearly stated i want glass cannons summoners.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Glass cannon summoner? isn’t that Phantasm mesmer?
Thank you for making my point. In no case the fastest is the best and the “balanced” exceed because the tracks are designed in a way where you need every “stat” and they all sum to be the best
Except I wasn’t and what you said just made our point. Stats doesn’t matter. Being the fastest matter. How you are the fastest does not matter. Only that you are. If Nomad’s was the fastest that’s what we would use. Toad being used for the (now probably outdated) run is not because the tracks have solid design it’s because of the kittened kitten you can theoretically do with him.
Another example. Mega Man 2. It’s fun right? You can walk and you can shoot and you can jump. All fun. Now if someone were to tell you that walking is better than jumping because you walk 0,0625 pixels faster per frame what would you do? Normal people do whatever. They jump, they shoot, and they walk. Whatever they feel like. A speedrunner walks. Always. Unless they absolutely have to jump or if jumping speeds the run up in other ways. The small minority of crying gw2forumers/redditors would say walking is op and that capcom should nerf it to the ground.
First, I don’t see how while generalizing saying 90s would make me a fool? maybe its a local thing in US, I don’t know. Care to elaborate? I could’ve said the 90s or the 80s, no difference really, it’s an example.
I’m not from the US and as far as I’m aware we never had a huge arcade scene. Arcade areas in amusement parks was as good as it got other than random machines in pubs/bars/restaurants/whatever. Mostly pinball though. In my lifetime at least. Your mistake is saying old = bad.
1941: Counter Attack
Dragon Saber
Raiden
3 solid vertical shooters released in 1990. Virtually identical. Granted the first 2 are sequels but why would 3 different companies make the same thing over and over again if the design is “average 80s 90s”. Because it’s solid, it’s good, and it sells. Cave has been doing literally the same thing for 20 years.
Expanding your statement to the 90s instead of 90 makes it even sillier as anything and everything today (except maybe MOBAS) comes from the ridiculous solid design made back then (or further back)
/incoherent rant
edit: oh and most “AAA+ deluxe with a star on the side” games are complete and utter kitten. Expecting more out of a game because some clueless corporation threw a bunch of money at it is silly.
(edited by RemiRome.8495)
isn’t it called ‘bunker’ over there? Even a staff ele can do a tank job. /shrug
“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”
- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids
- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids
(before someone comes with the training wheels excuse… find me a “training wheels gear” feature explained before release)
It’s self-evident. If you fresh install the game at launch and you die alot you will add tankier gear. If you don’t die alot your natural inclination will be to experiment by adding DPS gear. I don’t know how you can fail to see the intention there.
Did they envision a state of the game where 99% of the player base ran full DPS gear in pve? Doubtful. But then again I don’t think they envisions a state of the game where there was no new dungeon/challenging content for over a year, either.
I would agree with the self-evident if its not because every time something is self-evident for the rest we get called many things… so in order to avoid double standards, just show anything from ANET before release where they talk about a game meta being dps and the rest of the gear used as training curve. I will shut up now and forever about it if ANET has something from before game release date where they say that.
Did they envision a state of the game where 99% of the player base ran full DPS gear in pve?. Doubtful.
THIS is exactly what I’ve been saying since the first day the zerk vs build variety discussion started. I also doubt the game was envisioned in that way and all the explanations of other sets being training wheels and having just one meta is fine is a product of people adapting on the current game and not what was planned initially. Just that. Now we can agree that there is only one zerk meta, the rest are worthless and currently only worth a dime using them in pvp.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
This is where you are wrong… if it was me i would remove tank and heal stats completely from the game and include other stats that better suits the skills we have.
Please, don’t assume things on me just because I take sides in the argument. This is NOT what I want.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
This is where you are wrong… if it was me i would remove tank and heal stats completely from the game and include other stats that better suits the skills we have.
Please, don’t assume things on me just because I take sides in the argument. This is NOT what I want.
Just because we don’t run Tanky or Healing stats in PVE doesn’t mean that those armors don’t have a place. Mainly in sPvP and WvW. These armors are not useless and they do have their place.
Healing stats scale awful, but that is kinda whatever at this point. But there is a Toughness threshold that needs to be meet for any kind of heavy engagement in most WvW zerg fights.
Saying we need to remove them just because they are not needed in PvE is kinda silly.
As a player that plays in all portions of the game I have many gear sets that I need and use. But they are all used in their own area of the game.
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
This is where you are wrong… if it was me i would remove tank and heal stats completely from the game and include other stats that better suits the skills we have.
Please, don’t assume things on me just because I take sides in the argument. This is NOT what I want.
Just because we don’t run Tanky or Healing stats in PVE doesn’t mean that those armors don’t have a place. Mainly in sPvP and WvW. These armors are not useless and they do have their place.
Again with the pvp. Yes that is the use that people give to those sets now. But those sets where originally placed (the vast majority and variety of sets) as PVE rewards; to use in PVP? it doesn’t much sense. Like hybrid said, I also doubt the game was envisioned as it is today, and my point is that it would be a much more interesting game if they sit their cats for a second to improve the content we have in a way all sets fits in the current meta.
And for the love of god im starting to think that the ones that truly love tank stats is the zerk people… they can’t reply to a post without naming it once.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
Mesket wants tanky stats to be good because of some bizarre notion of design symmetry.
This is where you are wrong… if it was me i would remove tank and heal stats completely from the game and include other stats that better suits the skills we have.
Please, don’t assume things on me just because I take sides in the argument. This is NOT what I want.
Just because we don’t run Tanky or Healing stats in PVE doesn’t mean that those armors don’t have a place. Mainly in sPvP and WvW. These armors are not useless and they do have their place.
Again with the pvp. Yes that is the use that people give to those sets now. But those sets where originally placed (the vast majority and variety of sets) as PVE rewards; to use in PVP? it doesn’t much sense. Like hybrid said, I also doubt the game was envisioned as it is today, and my point is that it would be a much more interesting game if they sit their cats for a second to improve the content we have in a way all sets fits in the current meta.
And for the love of god im starting to think that the ones that truly love tank stats is the zerk people… they can’t reply to a post without naming it once.
Maybe anet didn’t intend for us to only really use one set of gear. They probably didn’t intend for the game to get as stale as it has been with no changes. And most of us being able to run it in our sleep.
I don’t care if the other armor sets get put into the PvE Meta, people will run what they want. I don’t need to use them in PvE so I don’t. End of story.
But since you want to talk about those armors dropping in PvE That is simple for two reasons, not all players are good enough to run full glass cannons, they need those stats. Also WvW uses Armor and Gear from PvE as well.
Accept that there is more to this game then PvE. I answered why those stats are here and why they are used. Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t make it any less true.
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
There was one time I was doing AC p1 at boss someone called for stacking so we all stacked at the fgs location. Then I saw the boss was about to fire its beam and it was still 900 range away. So I dodged away while the rest of them wiped by that beam 1 sec later insisting not leaving the stack. One of them started to complain about me not stacking resulting for the wipe, while the truth is I will be dead too if I didn’t dodge away… I think the term “stack” has become a rule that some just follow it like a bible regardless of any situation. They stack right in front of the killing beam and don’t think it’s wrong.
There was one time I was doing AC p1 at boss someone called for stacking so we all stacked at the fgs location. Then I saw the boss was about to fire its beam and it was still 900 range away. So I dodged away while the rest of them wiped by that beam 1 sec later insisting not leaving the stack. One of them started to complain about me not stacking resulting for the wipe, while the truth is I will be dead too if I didn’t dodge away… I think the term “stack” has become a rule that some just follow it like a bible regardless of any situation. They stack right in front of the killing beam and don’t think it’s wrong.
The Champion Icebrood Wolf at the beginning of CoE, when pulled without first triggering its attack, provides some sweet pug moments I can never get enough of.
Always question your assumptions.
Tarnished Coast
Tarnished Coast
just show anything from ANET before release where they talk about a game meta being dps and the rest of the gear used as training curve. I will shut up now and forever about it if ANET has something from before game release date where they say that.
Since I never claimed they said that, it would be weird for me to look for a quote. You know what its called when you create a fake position, like you did right there, and then knock it down? That’s a strawman argument.
You’re being simple-minded. Tanky gear makes you receive less damage. DPS gear makes you deal more damage. Anet clearly intended these things to be so. they did not intend tanky gear to deal more damage or DPS gear to soak more passively. That’s the point. The gear does what it does. It does what its used for. What its used for it what it does. This is so simple I feel you must be trolling if you do not understand.
In a game with a dodge button they 100% obviously intended for the best, most experienced players to rely on dodges more than passive defense in pve. This is indisputable. So what is the inverse position? they intended for the inexperienced players to rely more on passive defense. The game design is so simple and elegant it seems extremely bizarre that you believe it wasn’t intended to be so.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
I really would prefer to have toughness and vitality play a role in our active defenses though, and to have healing scale up a bit more. I feel it would add avenues of growth for further encounter design in the game’s future, and promote the likes of Soldier and Nomad gear from ‘safety net’ and ‘useless’ respectively (in popular perception) to ‘path of mastery’.
And just why exactly should gear stats that let you afk eat hits be the optimal gear for anything?
Is soaking hits more skillful or more interesting or something? Like idk, I feel if you go full glass you should be rewarded accordingly, which this game does, or like what every MMO does where you run the very bare minimum of tanks and healers necessary. A really basic example is that the first dungeon in ArcheAge is something you can clear with three DPS but sure, you can use a tank + 2 DPS or whatever. But if you can handle it, 3 DPS is cool.
Everybody knows standing there and tanking hits because you’re afk, too lazy to use active defense, or clueless as to the mechanics is far more skillful play than having to know the mechanics and use active defense while attentively playing. Since tanking hits in this manner is vastly more skillful than the alternatives, it should definitely be more rewarding.
I feel this video clearly demonstrates why non-damage gear is more skillful than anything else out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo
I mean really, look at that. It’s sped up (and a bit dated), but since the fight took about 35 minutes real time, there’s a LOT of possible room for mishap. For example, he could have fallen asleep, or the “1” key on the keyboard could have ceased to function from all that repeated pressing, requiring some fast reaction to clicking the “1” skill instead before complete disaster.
#Nomads4Lyfe
Appurruved.
just show anything from ANET before release where they talk about a game meta being dps and the rest of the gear used as training curve. I will shut up now and forever about it if ANET has something from before game release date where they say that.
Since I never claimed they said that, it would be weird for me to look for a quote. You know what its called when you create a fake position, like you did right there, and then knock it down? That’s a strawman argument.
You’re being simple-minded. Tanky gear makes you receive less damage. DPS gear makes you deal more damage. Anet clearly intended these things to be so. they did not intend tanky gear to deal more damage or DPS gear to soak more passively. That’s the point. The gear does what it does. It does what its used for. What its used for it what it does. This is so simple I feel you must be trolling if you do not understand.
In a game with a dodge button they 100% obviously intended for the best, most experienced players to rely on dodges more than passive defense in pve. This is indisputable. So what is the inverse position? they intended for the inexperienced players to rely more on passive defense. The game design is so simple and elegant it seems extremely bizarre that you believe it wasn’t intended to be so.
people answering to me in this post can’t reply without naming tank gear (set I never defended, not very good reading comprehension here). I argue about stat simplicity and the only reply I get is “training wheels”, “its for pvp” and “tank and heals”… and I’m the simple minded? on the contrary my friend, I’m trying to take this to a higher level for more than a year but it’s impossible with the replies I get. I hardly found 1 or maybe 2 forum posters able to discuss hypothetically, the rest is like stuck in what ANet implemented the way it’s implemented. If it’s not in the game then it can’t exist, not even as an idea. Balance is just something magical that comes down from heaven, not because human beings behind it thinks about stuff and make it change.
I know what being a strawman is, and my reply is not a strawman argument. That’s not even my point (probably not yours either, but many people claim ANet intended those sets as something else), I’m just replying to someone else point like I get replied many times. If the idea behind stats is that, then why is there absolutely no reference before release about it? For me, it was a well played excuse when the issue started to being noticed by many trying to justify the lame system they designed.
You don’t waste that much time creating so many combinations of stats so players can use them the first month and then move to something else. It’s not logical. I mean, you seriously think that would go through any kind of meeting? Imaging a room and someone saying that they will create a dozen of stats combinations and place them as dungeon rewards, but hey… just zerk is the important one,… the rest are just training wheels… I don’t buy it.
You think I’m here defending the holy trinity, I’m not. I have 7 out of 8 characters in zerk gear (the 8th is on rampager for the lulz). Having no trinity is great, but changing 3 forced roles for 1… its not a great improvement.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
You’re ignoring the part where the game has been out for two years and people still use tanky gear because they prefer to use it and don’t bother using berserker.
If everyone moved on to something else, you wouldn’t have PVT heroes talking about “ressing dead zerkers” all the time.
And it’s already been explained that WvW’ers make use of a bunch of the other stats, so they aren’t “just” training wheels at all, a lot of the stat combinations in this game are used all throughout the game.
Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes
You’re ignoring the part where the game has been out for two years and people still use tanky gear because they prefer to use it and don’t bother using berserker.
If everyone moved on to something else, you wouldn’t have PVT heroes talking about “ressing dead zerkers” all the time.
And it’s already been explained that WvW’ers make use of a bunch of the other stats, so they aren’t “just” training wheels at all, a lot of the stat combinations in this game are used all throughout the game.
I can already predict the next answer.
“Talking about pve only, wvw and pvp don’t matter, bring up some actual arguments”
You’re ignoring the part where the game has been out for two years and people still use tanky gear because they prefer to use it and don’t bother using berserker.
If everyone moved on to something else, you wouldn’t have PVT heroes talking about “ressing dead zerkers” all the time.
And it’s already been explained that WvW’ers make use of a bunch of the other stats, so they aren’t “just” training wheels at all, a lot of the stat combinations in this game are used all throughout the game.
I can already predict the next answer.
“Talking about pve only, wvw and pvp don’t matter, bring up some actual arguments”
You don’t need to guess, I responded to that elaborated and original answer many times in the past for the last 2 years and what you predicted was not my reply.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
How Do You Know They Are Not Actually Carrying You?
9 Guardians later…
How Do You Know They Are Not Actually Carrying You?
You don’t. Thats the beauty of these debates.
‘debates’.
I love it.
How Do You Know They Are Not Actually Carrying You?
Because I am the one soloing lupicus and they died to kicks in phase 1.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
How Do You Know They Are Not Actually Carrying You?
Because I am the one soloing lupicus and they died to kicks in phase 1.
Well that’s probably because they were elitists and had zerker gear on them, they should’ve built more on Toughness
9 Guardians later…
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
How Do You Know They Are Not Actually Carrying You?
Because I am the one soloing lupicus and they died to kicks in phase 1.
I get a great deal of fun pushing him away from the wall at the start and then standing right next to my party so that they have to deal with all of the kicks, because for some stupid reason I have lupicus aggro in basically every single pug ever until phase 2 when he starts porting around, and then he glues to me again anyway.
Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes