Guild Wars 2

Dante.1508:

Seriously all these comments about it being not that hard?

When was the last time you all ran it as a 45 team…. and passed it?

Why slap a level 40-45 level on it and then make it so you need level 80 geared teams to run them, this whole game does this? every dungeon needs a level 80 geared team to even hope to have minimal issues…

Yet they still add level requirements to these things, then get thread after thread of complaints…if you add a 45 tag to it level 45 should be able to get through it no problems, Ascalonian Catacombs is the same, and TA, CoE…

Even level 80 exotic geared teams have trouble in dungeons especially pugs. The problem is, the Q/A they have suck – basically human nature comes into play here. “I can down this content//or this content is easy for me so it should be easy for other players” This type of human nature – the Q/A should be done by random sets of players of all skill levels, and adjusted so every player should be able to finish the content and in GW2, this doesn’t happen and that is what is hurting the game.

Basically, if someone is complaining about any dungeon being too hard – then it needs to be looked at. Since GW2 doesn’t have raids which should be difficult, then the dungeons needs to be done perfectly.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Even level 80 exotic geared teams have trouble in dungeons especially pugs. The problem is, the Q/A they have suck – basically human nature comes into play here. “I can down this content//or this content is easy for me so it should be easy for other players” This type of human nature – the Q/A should be done by random sets of players of all skill levels, and adjusted so every player should be able to finish the content and in GW2, this doesn’t happen and that is what is hurting the game.

Basically, if someone is complaining about any dungeon being too hard – then it needs to be looked at. Since GW2 doesn’t have raids which should be difficult, then the dungeons needs to be done perfectly.

It’s not “Q/A” it’s QA. (Quality Assurance)

They are professionals typically with same education and training levels as the programmers, and sometimes are themselves programmers and are a key part of the development team.

What you are talking about is basically a beta or user acceptance testing.

And I agree it comes down to human nature. People tend to project their own beliefs onto others and typically don’t empathize with the plight of people that are different than them.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Even level 80 exotic geared teams have trouble in dungeons especially pugs. The problem is, the Q/A they have suck – basically human nature comes into play here. “I can down this content//or this content is easy for me so it should be easy for other players” This type of human nature – the Q/A should be done by random sets of players of all skill levels, and adjusted so every player should be able to finish the content and in GW2, this doesn’t happen and that is what is hurting the game.

Basically, if someone is complaining about any dungeon being too hard – then it needs to be looked at. Since GW2 doesn’t have raids which should be difficult, then the dungeons needs to be done perfectly.

So instead of getting better, players should expect the difficulty to be lowered ? I mean, I heard players complaining that Queensdale was hard when they were on their level 80…should it be fixed ?

For a time we used to 4 man CM with a guardian, warrior, mesmer, necro , not in full exotics and it took us around 30 minutes in p1 and p3.
The difficulty in CM isn’t about having the right gear, or having godly reflexes or even having a perfect knowledge of your profession or perfect teamwork, it’s more or less about being observant and using the tools you are given. Even if you don’t have anything against projectiles (so in a team without a thief, guardian, elementalist and mesmer) you still have access to block, blind, damage mitigation and Line of Sight.

Wethospu.6437:

Why do they bother putting enemies in groups if they are supposed to be split? How does it logically make sense that enemy group doesn’t care at all that you pick them off one by one?
Standing on funny spots meant going to a spot where you can “afk-ranged” bosses.
Again, why they bother putting any enemies if they are supposed to be skipped (it’s easier and faster than fighting after all…)? How does it logically make sense that enemies simply forget that you ever existed once you pass a magical border?
Using terrain when kiting meant changing elevation with jumping. Because enemies can’t do any vertical movement it is very effective way to kite them.
Abusing line of sight has nothing to do with being smart, all you do is hide behind corner. Smart positioning should be about moving to positions where you can maximize your damage output while minimizing risks. Why do ranged monsters give up their advantage when they voluntarily come to melee-range?
Hitting through walls can be used a lot more when kiting enemies around corners. Why enemy melees don’t do that if we can? Or why we can even do that?
Using reflections hardly takes any skill. Just put it at front of enemy at any moment. Why won’t enemies stop shooting after 1-2 secs when being reflected? Most importantly, why don’t they dodge…

You know, if they actually fixed all these weird design flaws, the amount of rage on the forums would triple. People already can’t get through a storymode CM…

It would be nice to have this option available, though. I’d love to take my normal group through a dungeon where everything you mentioned as a design flaw didn’t exist. That’d be a lot of fun. Sometimes we get bored and try to find ways to stack the dungeon against us, haha.

RedStar.4218:

I heard players complaining that Queensdale was hard when they were on their level 80…should it be fixed ?

lolwut?

Brennus.1435:

RedStar.4218:

I heard players complaining that Queensdale was hard when they were on their level 80…should it be fixed ?

lolwut?

During the first few weeks you could find such gems as “Level scaling is horrible, I don’t understand why a max level character can die in Queensdale, this should be fixed !” or “I don’t want to help my friends level in low level zone because the repair fee is hindering me”

I’m fairly certain some players still find those zones hard. But that’s not the problem. You can find them hard, at first. But you honestly can’t expect that the difficulty is too high.

RedStar.4218:

During the first few weeks you could find such gems as “Level scaling is horrible, I don’t understand why a max level character can die in Queensdale, this should be fixed !” or “I don’t want to help my friends level in low level zone because the repair fee is hindering me”

I’m fairly certain some players still find those zones hard. But that’s not the problem. You can find them hard, at first. But you honestly can’t expect that the difficulty is too high.

That’s insane, haha. I think the only time I’ve ever found Queensdale hard was when I was level five and accidentally wandered into the swamp where everything is level 15 or so. That wasn’t very pleasant.

I still notice sometimes that people approach this game kind of odd. I ran into someone in Orr who had somehow leveled to 80 and wasn’t aware of dodging and was complaining about how complicated Orr was and that it should be it’s own dungeon and stuff. I can understand if you’re new to MMOs and the game completely, but how do you get to level 80 and not realize you can dodge? Even by accident.

Brennus.1435:

You know, if they actually fixed all these weird design flaws, the amount of rage on the forums would triple. People already can’t get through a storymode CM…

It would be nice to have this option available, though. I’d love to take my normal group through a dungeon where everything you mentioned as a design flaw didn’t exist. That’d be a lot of fun. Sometimes we get bored and try to find ways to stack the dungeon against us, haha.
—

One can only dream

I’ve done Butler and Asura paths of CM in the last couple days with pretty much random groups. These were guild groups, but just whoever wanted in and no vent, so I won’t go so far to say it was an organized group.

Butler path we had an odd collections of levels 48ish through to 60 some. My level 50 ranger, a necro, engineer, another ranger (iirc) and ele. None of us knew the path well, although some had done it once before some time ago.

Did we wipe? Yes, a few times. But in each case we as a group learned and figured out what we had to do better next time.

The long hallway with the riflemen at the end and the room to left, we all tried to rush the room and found there were turrets and mobs there. Next try, pets sent to occupy the riflement we flooded the room and spammed heals. Worked like a charm.

The boss with the shotgun in the field? First attempt I went in with my GS with the guard to try and distract him. Found out chained knockback is no fun. Second time we both stayed back.

The asura path worked much the same (with another collection of random builds from level 45-80 this time), we learned and adapted on the fly based on what hadn’t worked before. It made the dungeon a good challenge, but far from impossible.

It’s not about having elite gear, or even knowing the paths well, but just adapting to the situation at hand, always. Past that, some of this is expectations. Knowing nothing about CM going in, yes you are going to make mistakes and go down a number of times and that is okay! If you didn’t go down it wouldn’t be much of a challenge once you did know the layout.

The OP mentioned ranger – and these are some of the helpful things I found:

GS can let you block rifle shots, or to close with and stun the rifle bandit. Swoop is invaluable, but it’s always a risk vs reward skill.

Axe/Axe is hugely useful. I would stand in front of my party, whirling defense to block projectiles coming through and they could shoot through the screen. MH Axe will bound around corners, through doorways and so on, so you can damage multiple enemies while only seeing one.

Muddy terrain – priceless against frost or shotgun bosses. This allows your whole party a much easier time kiting them.

Healing Spring, GS and 2 drake pets – Swoop, and the drakes’ tail-swipe (which they tend to use immediately after swap) will all area heal inside of healing spring. Use this and spam healing like no other when needed.

Personally I think every dungeon should have three versions

• Story mode: Solo/Duo difficulty (1.5 players)
• Explorable: Level equivalent group difficulty (CM 45)
• Heroic: End game difficulty tuned for 80

I don’t hate the difficulty of explorable but it is obvious that it was tested by characters well above the level range. I also dislike trash mobs being harder than bosses, a well tuned dungeon should have:

• Respite: trash is low health/high damage to make the player feel heroic
• Teaching: trash teaches the players to use specific skills (dodge, projectile blocking or reflection, interrupts)
• Ramp up: Trash is difficult and ramps you up for the boss
• Bosses: For the real difficulty and epic challenge

Brennus.1435:

RedStar.4218:

During the first few weeks you could find such gems as “Level scaling is horrible, I don’t understand why a max level character can die in Queensdale, this should be fixed !” or “I don’t want to help my friends level in low level zone because the repair fee is hindering me”

I’m fairly certain some players still find those zones hard. But that’s not the problem. You can find them hard, at first. But you honestly can’t expect that the difficulty is too high.

That’s insane, haha. I think the only time I’ve ever found Queensdale hard was when I was level five and accidentally wandered into the swamp where everything is level 15 or so. That wasn’t very pleasant.

I still notice sometimes that people approach this game kind of odd. I ran into someone in Orr who had somehow leveled to 80 and wasn’t aware of dodging and was complaining about how complicated Orr was and that it should be it’s own dungeon and stuff. I can understand if you’re new to MMOs and the game completely, but how do you get to level 80 and not realize you can dodge? Even by accident.

lol, similar story…

A few weeks back I was in Orr and there was a serious question asked in map chat “how do you complete the dodge daily”. The whole place went silent waiting for the punchline. A few moments later the same person asked again and people explained double tapping and key mapping. This was a level 80…guess we may want to look into reducing the difficulty of Orr for this guy.

For the people saying the difficulty to be levelled, answer me this. I find CM and Arah hard. The rest of the dungeons I find easy. Why is it that I find CM so difficult that I won’t play it when I do dungeons on a daily basis? Its not a L2P issue. There is a reason why its one of the least searched dungeons via pugs.

Having played CM, AC, CoF, TA, and HotW, I can list the difficulty as so, from easiest to hardest, IMO.

CoF, TA, AC, HotW, CM

It’s quite ironic that higher level dungeons are EASIER than CM.

All Of The Dungeons are whack in this game,There all crazy hard till you figure out the KKKKombo…..! ROFL
Frankly i figured out the game mechanic they are using and its so 1985 and cheesy the dungeons dont interest me anymore.

but i give you a hint all boss mobs have a pattern or a special and you have to dodge or do something to win. learning the bosses pattern is the key to winning.
Remember those old stupid games in 1985 when you had to jump every 3rd attack YEP that was the devs idea of a challenge here.

This type of play will require experimentation and a level of communication unseen in any other mmo and likely scare away 90% of previous mmo players.

Good luck and good speed. I will play solo and story mode outside of the dungeons.

A+ on everything but dungeons
F- on dungeons

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Now try doing all that on a class that has no counter for most of those things you mentioned, ie necro. no stability, no blocks/reflects, no evades, access to any quickness, and if you are about to throw out that old tired comment of “well they have such high hp and 2 health bars”…no, just no…

It’s easy to go around saying these dungeons are cake when you play classes that were obviously designed for them. The ONLY thing viable for a necro to do in this dungeon is remove conditions…which were never a threat to a necro to begin with >.>

Are you implying you’re running a 5-man Necro-only party or that you have a Necro that’s trying to solo the dungeon? Furthermore, Necros have great counters to many of the mechanics in the dungeon.

1) Bandit Saboteur – Move out of big red circles
2) Bandit Bomber – Dodge out of circles if you want, but you can generally tank the damage, even as a glass cannon
3) Bandit Cutpurse – Bleed and Poison are easily dealt with Deathly Swarm (Dagger off-hand), Putrid Mark (Staff), Consume Conditions, Signet of Plague and Well of Power.
4) Bandit Enforcer – Both attacks have a visible charge-up animation. Learn to time your dodge for those or run behind obstructions.
5) Bandit Rifleman – See #4 or just stand still while you DPS in melee or at range
6) Bandit Thug – Boons are countered by Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption
7) Bandit Hooligan – Pack a stun breaker. Stability is more for convenience.
8) Bandit Archer – Low threat and low damage.

I’ve run the dungeon on a Guardian, Mesmer, Engineer and Necromancer, each has its own way of dealing with or outright countering each and every enemy. Most PUGs struggle because most people can’t be bothered to learn their own class beyond mashing buttons and using cookie cutter builds.

Strifey.7215:

angan.6572:

My problem is not about that i don’t like a challenging dungeon. My problem is, that in a game with no designated healing and tank class, in a game where Anet so proudly claims “Everyone can tank” the reality is that not everyone can in such level of difficulty dungeons.

Unless you have guardians / mesmer etc to provide a bit amount of shields, protection and projectile reflection the dungeon is really frustrating. Why should i be restrained by team setups ?? Wasn’t your motto Anet that any team setup could do any dungeon with no problems ? Yes some setups maybe are better than others but i didn’t expect it to be at the point of unless you have this and this hero in your team you are most likely to fail.

My first 2 runs i did it with some friends. 2 rangers , 1 necromancer, 1 elementalist and 1 mesmer in group. It was nearly impossible to survive 5 minutes without at least 3 people dying…

I play a ranger and i run with full exotic gear with toughness, vitality, precision (obtained specifically for dungeons like that) and i still get 2 shotted by every boss in there, i still have hard time surviving in there and i have people bashing at me when i pug “omg noob ranger you are a glass cannon, rangers useless anywhere”.

That’s my problem!. I enjoy a challenging dungeon. But a dungeon that offers real challenge, not mindlessly trying to dodge roll through 20+ mobs and find the best spot to use an Ash legion spy kit in order to hope to survive the hordes chasing you just because you have no chance to kill them in fight.

That’s more of an issue with what Anet claims you can do when it comes to dungeons and what reality is as far as how hard/easy things are.

I think the main difference between GW2 and other MMOs is people know they need certain roles in other games. In GW2 it’s much more open, which works for most PvE content, but shows the obvious disadvantage you have without certain roles when it comes to dungeons.

It’s way harder to balance hard content in a game that says “do whatever you want” compared to one that already has specific bounds of the trinity.

So you get people using the “GW2 Trinity” which makes things easy vs. groups which bring in random classes/builds/gear which don’t synergize and then have issues in things which require teamwork and certain mechanics.

There’s really no way around it with the way the game is currently designed by making things challenging for one group without making it too easy or too hard for another group because the spectrum of balance in GW2 is way bigger then other traditional MMOs that know they need to design challenge around tank/healer/dps trinities.

This is a very good explanation of the problem at hand with most of what the game is designed around. I personally feel that they never should have removed the trinity. They could have made things so much more epic, engaging, and deep…especially the overworld. The cons of the trinity are way more desirable than the cons of this mess we currently have.

I actually prefer this mess, but then again unlike OTHER MMOs I could mention, I can actually get into a party here easily.