Guild Wars 2

If that is so, if all the builds have their place in the game, then why does everyone and their mother have a farm zerk warrior? Why is it so easy to just apply the same lame stacking strategy to 80% of the dungeon content ? and im not only talking even talking of speed clears. Because its easy? Because it is superior to all other ways to do the content? Or just because people are used to it?

GS Warrior is basically a very selfish build, non-supportive build that helps your team by dealing as much damage as possible.

Am I selfish when I bring a Mesmer GS to a Dungeon just because its not viable when I stand in melee range in a corner?

You won’t tell me, you think PvE was intended to be this way.

Miroe.2054:

If that is so, if all the builds have their place in the game, then why does everyone and their mother have a farm zerk warrior? Why is it so easy to just apply the same lame stacking strategy to 80% of the dungeon content ? and im not only talking even talking of speed clears. Because its easy? Because it is superior to all other ways to do the content? Or just because people are used to it?

GS Warrior is basically a very selfish build, non-supportive build that helps your team by dealing as much damage as possible.

Am I selfish when I bring a Mesmer GS to a Dungeon just because its not viable when I stand in melee range in a corner?

You won’t tell me, you think PvE was intended to be this way.

Was PvE dungeons intended to be full glass in the hands of people who know it well and have good team synergy? Yes – see link in sig.

Even during release where we didnt employ typical “stack” strategies me and all of my friends went zerk stats. It’s just the way we like our games, we aim to improve our play rather than rely on tanky stats. I assume a good chunk of people prefer this as well.

The more I read about this debate the more I have the impression that it falls under the category “self esteem issue”.
Some people want to be considered as pro, clean things as fast as best groups and draw huge dps but without making the effort of playing like this.

It is fine to “play how I want” even if it is not THE meta build as long as you play in good coordination with the team. That is if you’re pugging in a group and don’t talk you are expected to play what some call the “elist build” (even though some play it but are soooo bad).

Almost everything works in the game (yeah even condi necro in dungeon can contribute to dps, or mantra mesmer being assigned to a “healer” role) but nothing is equally fast. If you want to be as fast as the best team then play as well as the bests do. If you don’t play like them then deal with it and accept to not be among the best players, there is nothing to be ashamed by this. Yes they will be richer and get their precursor sooner but you won’t have spent as much effort as they do so it is normal in the end to get less than them.
Find the fun where you want but don’t spoil the fun of other because it is not you’re gameplay… or get your fingers out and work hard to achieve what they can.

PS: I have almost no toon equiped with berserker, the average dungeon runs I do are like 20/30 minutes but my guildies and I don’t care, it is not what we want from the game but I enjoy watching videos of [DnT] or [rT] clearing bosses and dungeons so fast… I just think " woaw that’s fun, they’re good" but I don’t care not doing it.

GS warrior is not selfish. Banners, FGJ, Empowe Allies, and potentially Phalanx Strength means a berserker GS warrior is a huge amount of support. A GS Mesmer is selfish, as ranging in order to stay alive when the rest of your time is meleeing and sharing boons, slows down your team and only benefits your own survivability— that is selfish. Mesmers who are team players use swords.

Miroe.2054:

If that is so, if all the builds have their place in the game, then why does everyone and their mother have a farm zerk warrior? Why is it so easy to just apply the same lame stacking strategy to 80% of the dungeon content ? and im not only talking even talking of speed clears. Because its easy? Because it is superior to all other ways to do the content? Or just because people are used to it?

GS Warrior is basically a very selfish build, non-supportive build that helps your team by dealing as much damage as possible.

Am I selfish when I bring a Mesmer GS to a Dungeon just because its not viable when I stand in melee range in a corner?

You won’t tell me, you think PvE was intended to be this way.

I don’t get what are you complaining about? Points mentioned:

• Zerker Warrior is popular (in PUG): because it’s durable and has sustainable damage and a good solo profession. When things go wrong, a warrior can fix the aftermath even by using Vengeance.
• Stacking (assumingly in the corner) is common in 80% of the dungeon content Because any zerker groups would have limited active defense and requires fast cleaves, big hits to exterminate the threats. However, if stacking jeopardizes your sustainability and does not improve your DPS, then it’s better to go with melee in the open. For example, against Wraith Lord in Arah p3, it is silly to stack at the pillar when the group doesn’t have FGS. Bad players don’t have that judgment. It’s because they are blindly copying the tactics, not because stacking is required nor superior nor cheesy.
• “GSword Warrior is a selfish build”: Wrong, great sword is a weapon! It’s not a singular build. Empowered Allies + Phalanx Strength is one of the best Damage Support Build in the game. Compounding it with double banners, the warrior sacrifices just a little personal DPS to give a huge buff to the team. Even if every pug warrior is using a classic Fast Hand build, they can always contribute to the group with their banners. Well, the sensible ones, I mean.
• “Gsword mesmer is selfish”: Yes, they are. Even more stupid at that when they camp Gsword at a melee range in the corner. Need me to explain why?

More often than not, the opinions expressed here in the forum are just our excessive rant about the bad apples we came across. Because they are so painful to watch that they somehow amuse us at the same time. Thus, we share our stories. The majority of the dungeon forum regulars doesn’t care what our pugs run, nor they bother to correct the misinformed during our daily run. If we do, that means we care and pity them for their casualness. Once in a while, the casual will come here and cry out for their justice. Then they quickly dissolve like soap bubbles. That is rather sad and pointless. If anything, this sub forum needs some new insightful discussions. Or some community activities. Or Fashion Contests. They will undoubtedly draw more attentions.

Once upon a time, ANet said, “Explorable dungeons are meant for coordinated groups of skilled players.”

Coordination in video game group play almost always involves synergy, a condition in which contributors toward some goal combine to produce an effect that is greater than the sum of their individual contributions. In GW2, this involves mechanics that proc in 600 range or less. This means that stacking is designed into the game.

As Bread says, the damage bonus from zerker is intended to reward players with greater skill who are using that skill to mitigate the greater risk. Skilled players were the demographic the dungeons were aimed at. Also designed into the game.

What’s happening in the current Pug meta is that the paths have been around for a very long time. More and more players have learned them and are able to complete at least some of the paths with copied strategy. Also, some of the dungeon bosses have very simple rotations, easily spotted and easily mitigated.

maha.7902:

we did this like 2 days ago in some trashy 4 warrior 1 guardian comp with terrible dps

Actually our DPS was pretty great against everything but Subject Alpha. Organized groups with meta team comp would be lucky to be as efficient as our Heavies Only 2012 Throwback Tour was.

http://www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt/c/4465223

IndigoSundown.5419:

Once upon a time, ANet said, “Explorable dungeons are meant for coordinated groups of skilled players.”

As Bread says, the damage bonus from zerker is intended to reward players with greater skill who are using that skill to mitigate the greater risk. Skilled players were the demographic the dungeons were aimed at. Also designed into the game.

The announcement that explorable dungeons are made for coordinated groups and “skilled” players is just a laughable lie.
Neither you need any coordination to complete a explorable dungeon path, nor you need that “skill” which arenanet has announced. Spend enough time and practice and even the badest player will be able to become a “skilled” player. Evading scriptet Gw2-AI isn’t that hard people always think.There are just so many lacks and so much potential which could require coordination and skill but it isn’t put in practice yet.
Iam sad, anet doesn’t make use of it

Tree.3916:

maha.7902:

we did this like 2 days ago in some trashy 4 warrior 1 guardian comp with terrible dps

Actually our DPS was pretty great against everything but Subject Alpha. Organized groups with meta team comp would be lucky to be as efficient as our Heavies Only 2012 Throwback Tour was.

http://www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt/c/4465223

There were quite a few fights that were noticeably slower (TA tree, kholer, spider queen, belka, evolved destroyer etc.) but tbh, I think we gained a lot of speed by being able to yolo basically every skip rather than waiting around to stealth.

I kind of wonder how fast a 2014 meta comp would be now, without conjures just as a DPS + speed comparison.

dominik.9721:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Once upon a time, ANet said, “Explorable dungeons are meant for coordinated groups of skilled players.”

As Bread says, the damage bonus from zerker is intended to reward players with greater skill who are using that skill to mitigate the greater risk. Skilled players were the demographic the dungeons were aimed at. Also designed into the game.

The announcement that explorable dungeons are made for coordinated groups and “skilled” players is just a laughable lie.
Neither you need any coordination to complete a explorable dungeon path, nor you need that “skill” which arenanet has announced. Spend enough time and practice and even the badest player will be able to become a “skilled” player. Evading scriptet Gw2-AI isn’t that hard people always think.There are just so many lacks and so much potential which could require coordination and skill but it isn’t put in practice yet.
Iam sad, anet doesn’t make use of it

I don’t think it was a lie. More of an intention that was not implemented well enough to stand the test of time.

Just after launch the forum was flooded with posts about dungeons being too hard. Those tapered off after a while and are now being replaced by, “zerk is jerk” and, “stack is crack” complaints. That shift argues either that the player population has changed substantially or that there’s been a learning curve that has now plateaued.

Thank you for your posts and actually you’re right, its not the Zerker meta thats bugging me. I’m gonna try this from another angle. I feel like I’m missing out on a lot of the game. All the glitching, the stacking and the skipping replaces something I’d like to experience. A real fight where I use the space and the battlefield that is given to my group, positioning, placing combo fields and finishers, seeing different classes cooperate within a dungeon. Thieves and Engineers and Mesmers and that Mace Dual wield warrior.

But I don’t see that a lot. Mostly my group tries to imitate those 5% of really skilled PvE players. What follow is the PUG trying some kind of a speed run without really knowing what that would mean. The result is neither fun nor effective. Seeing the kick window pop up every now and then doesn’t help either

Yea probably this is a whine thread, so lets hope we get more Battles like Molten Berserker and Firestorm and the glitches are being fixed and I’ll stop whining around.

/thread imo.

i’d recommend (when the 1-1-1-1-1 zergers aren’t all over the place) soloing open world champs

completely shameless plug

seems like the kind of fight you’d want

maha.7902:

seems like the kind of fight you’d want

I actually did that Golem once. There is a World Boss East of Maelstrom that you can solo too. Fun times. Takes a while. Little lonely maybe ^^

If you want to experience dungeons as intended you have to 1-3 man them.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I don’t think it was a lie. More of an intention that was not implemented well enough to stand the test of time.

Just after launch the forum was flooded with posts about dungeons being too hard. Those tapered off after a while and are now being replaced by, “zerk is jerk” and, “stack is crack” complaints. That shift argues either that the player population has changed substantially or that there’s been a learning curve that has now plateaued.

Yep. How hard are the “hard” bosses in Dark Souls the 75th time you fight them? How trivial are WoW dungeons two years after they come out?

Time is the great equalizer. The strategies, builds and tactics people took weeks and months to create eventually trickle down to the pug level to where even bad pugs have the instances on farm. Anet did nothing wrong. Most of their dungeons would be considered ridiculous hard if you didnt have good tactics already developed, good builds and lots of practice.

Dump everyone in Arah p1 at launch wearing green gear with crap builds and let me know how well that goes.

Easy. 4 guys focus grubs, one guy (healer) tickles Lupicus. 20 min phase 1.

To the OP:

If you want to dissolve the berserker meta, the only thing you can do is to make the game significantly harder.

• Improve AI substantially
• Make many mobs attack faster but for slightly less damage, meaning that active defense won’t be sufficient for surviving their assault

I remember duoing CoE p2 with Sandy. It was excruciating. It took us no less than 3 hours, with Sandy constantly being semi-AFK tweeting on his guild chat while I helplessly re-ran from waypoints over and over. But then, I have learnt tons of things about mesmer which I could have spent thousands of hours on it with pugging and all.

Or I remember being so proud of my first solo in AC p3 and the satisfaction I’ve got when giving the spots away.

Miroe.2054:

Thank you for your posts and actually you’re right, its not the Zerker meta thats bugging me. I’m gonna try this from another angle. I feel like I’m missing out on a lot of the game. All the glitching, the stacking and the skipping replaces something I’d like to experience. A real fight where I use the space and the battlefield that is given to my group, positioning, placing combo fields and finishers, seeing different classes cooperate within a dungeon. Thieves and Engineers and Mesmers and that Mace Dual wield warrior.

But I don’t see that a lot. Mostly my group tries to imitate those 5% of really skilled PvE players. What follow is the PUG trying some kind of a speed run without really knowing what that would mean. The result is neither fun nor effective. Seeing the kick window pop up every now and then doesn’t help either

Yea probably this is a whine thread, so lets hope we get more Battles like Molten Berserker and Firestorm and the glitches are being fixed and I’ll stop whining around.

/thread imo.

That’s a WAY more legit position, that a lot of ppl could follow.

There is several things important in there and we shouldn’t try to put them all in same place.
1) Stacking. Its all about opinions. From stacking is awesome get me more Anet to stacking is boring, exploiting things that should be ban because you all gonna go to hell. I think (i may be wrong) that stacking is a legitimate strategy, but there is 2 problem with it. Sometimes its just too easy. It replace a hard fight by a 2 sec no brain fight. Some fight get it better. You should need to blind, block, stability, reflect, dodge timing and its should be done in 2 seconds. It should be hard but highly rewarding to stack. Something that not every pugs can do and need some coordination and knowledge. The second problem is that its THE solution to a lot of fight. I like stacking, but when you stack 6 times in a dungeon of 10mins, that become ridiculous. There should be a difference in scale and kind in any video games to keep the player interested.
2) Glitching is a normal human reaction. Like water we gonna use the path of least resistance. A video game as big as an MMO will alway have glitch and ppl will always try to use it. I don’t think that a huge problem in GW2 and its usually temporary. Like a glitch become popular and then get nerf. It normal in a game.
3) Skipping. Its a simple effort vs reward. I won’t skip something that is rewarding, i’ll skip something that is not. Take for exemple the little grab in CoE path 3. That a classic situation of enemy that should be skip. But most ppl kill them because they give 5-6 tier 5 and a chance for 1 tier 6. That a good effort vs reward ratio. There were a lot less skipping a while ago when most bosses and mobs elite and above use to gave a bunch of silver for each kill. But anet removed all of that and concentrate the reward at the end to ’’fix’’ the dungeon farming that was going on back then. Its a legit solution, but its created more skipping.
4) Real fight that use space, positioning, combo field and use different profession that coordinated together? That pretty much meta and speed run mentality 100%. If you know the game well enough, you will have no problem having any profession in your party as long as the player know how to play that profession. (some are maybe a bit more resistant to necro, but that’s because that profession don,t have a lot going on for them in PvE). But don’t for pugs if you want that. Pug don’t coordinate and usually have a kittenty understanding of the game. (I’m pointing at you pugs that want heavy only, don’t coordinated banner, don’t want ranger, engineer and necro in their party or bring kittenty build and argue that ‘’kitten IPHIW’’ in the middle of a speed run). Coordinated group coordinated, pugs don’t do that even if they can, because that’s too much problem.
5) Dual Mace warrior? Comon, you were on the right track man. Don’t screw things up. Its not because it exist that it should be good everywhere at anytime. Someone like katana, katana are cool, but that doesn’t mean that you should bring that into a war where other ppl have guns.
6) Bad player try to follow how the best player do?? kitten . You mean like those idiots that try to race in the middle of a street with their civic like a F1 driver? Or those stupid kids that try to imitate kitten for fee while the actual kitten received millions of dollar for doing the same thing? You mean like all those wannabe celebrity that would do anything to get 5min on the TV screen? Ya that exist everywhere. We are doom to have those kind of ppl around. Sorry.

I sorta lol @the bad player trying to follow the best player. Good Role models are bad mmmkay. Instead of trying to be like a doctor/nurse/lawyer/p.o one should def aspire to be like the neighbourhood drug dealer.

DonQuack.9025:

I sorta lol @the bad player trying to follow the best player. Good Role models are bad mmmkay. Instead of trying to be like a doctor/nurse/lawyer/p.o one should def aspire to be like the neighbourhood drug dealer.

Not the models themselves, but trying to imitate good role models if you don’t understand what they are doing in the first place is indeed bad. If you try to play around with injections and stuff like you saw your doctor do, but have no understanding of what he actually did, you may easily end up more like your neighbourhood drug dealer by accident.

That’s one of the main complaints I perceive in this kind of discussion: People that try to play like they perceive the “good” players to play, but without understanding what they are doing, and messing up because they miss crucial parts of what makes the good players good.

In-game anecdote: The first time I tried to pug ac path 3. I got into a group with a couple of lower level players that insisted on stacking on pretty much all encounters. I had played my fair share of ac paths with my (non-stacking) guildies at that time, but never before had heard about stacking, nor any clue what it was supposed to do or how it was supposed to work. All I saw where a couple of players claiming “this is how you do this” despite the fact that it obviously didn’t work. Those players surely were trying to play like the “best”, but obviously didn’t have a real clue how the best played, and just imitated what they perceived to be the optimum playstyle.

People dont usually try out the injections part they usually try out the playing with stethoscope part. Eitherway they will learn through failure or they wont and will simply die.

Also I imitate the “best” with only a gist of what and why they are doing things.
When I fail I learn “Oh so thats why.”
If you wait till you understand every last reason before you try something… I dont know if it makes you very cautious or unadventurous. .

Case in point: just recently someone posted a video of naked ranged SQ solo. I “ran” -hopped on J train- home and stripped naked and tried it.

or maha’s bleed warrior. I tried that instantly. Failed repeatedly because I suck. But you know what? I now have a little bit more exp soloing things on my war. I know what to expect. I actually drove myself broke getting the gear for it. I was down to like 5 silver. I couldnt even tp mats to make money back had to merch some.

also

Rasimir.6239:

but without understanding what they are doing, and messing up because they miss crucial parts of what makes the good players good.

*
You mean the repeatedly playing of content and failing some then succeeding some then succeeding pretty much all? If anything that groups problem was that it was pug and not a premade.

*Assumptions ofc.

I sometimes like to make believe that pro players dont die. Like in those fancy ffps montages. They show that fancy tripply headshot noscope kill but they dont show the rest of the match that was horrible.

Ill happily show of this http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/1/440724069392554304/298969538/ or http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/1/478338351797690752/298969538/
Can be sure people will never see this http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/1/475403448284982016/298969538/