Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way.

I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.

The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

- Other content in this game is hard. Arah. Aether path. Liadri. Halloween jumping puzzle. Those don’t have easy modes.

The halloween JP offers only a generic exotic. Liadri offered only a mini. Aetherpath and Arah both offer nothing you can’t get elsewhere.

Raids offer easy access to Ascended gear for those who can do it (and also are likely least in need of more ascended gear), and exclusive access to Legendary Armor. That is far more significant, the content you list fails as precedent.

- All content in this game has unique rewards. Open world (map metas), WvW (wvw armor), PvP (glorious armor, pvp backpiece), Fractals (silver/gold fractal skins, backpiece), SAB (SAB skins), guilds (guild armor and weapons). Having unique rewards with raids is in line with the rest of the game.

The content you list is either fairly trivial to participate in, and requires a significantly lower investment of time and skill, or the uniqueness of the reward is very minimal, like weapon skins that are in ugly colors instead of the pretty colors that the default come in. I can guarantee you that if SAB blue skins were ONLY available for beating W2 Trib people would be flipping their kitten. The content you list fails as precedent.

- Tying legendaries to content is not new or unique to raids. Legendary weapons are mostly tied to pve. Backpiece to pvp (and eventually fractals). Armor eventually to raids.

But again, the two things you list involve relatively minimal investments of time and skill compared to the raid requirements of Legendary Armor. The content you list fails as precedent.

- Player preferences change. Just because raids weren’t in the game at release, doesn’t mean there isn’t an audience for them now. At launch, I liked open world and exploration. I was as far away from a hard core elitist as you could get. (I shamefully admit that I used to think a healing staff mesmer was good). But that was three years ago. I like GW2 combat – it’s part of what initially got me hooked. Now I like to apply it to more challenging encounters.

That’s great, for you, but there are also people who are not you.

- It’s ok not to like everything in this game. I understand if you don’t like raids. Ok. But a lot of people do. Luckily, there’s other things to do in the game if you don’t like raids.

Yes, and those things also reward Legendary armor so people who want Legendary armor but don’t like to raid can just do those instead. Oh, wait. . .

- Fractals and dungeons are far superior to easy mode raids. I’ve yet to hear any strong arguments here.

That’s an entirely subjective opinion. It’s impossible to argue against a subjective opinion. Easy mode raids are far superior to Fractals and dungeons. I’ve yet to hear any strong arguments here.

The only response I get is that easy mode raids would be easier to make. While we don’t know whether this is really true, I believe there are separate teams working on fractals and raids. So we can get new fractals without tying up raids resources.

We do know that it is true. It’s impossible for it to not be true. What is debatable is exactly how much work it would take, I err towards “very minimal,” others err towards “a few weeks or months,” but regardless of that, doing anything with raids that is not easy mode raid as I described it would take MORE time, because it would involve doing everything you’d need for easy mode raids plus more things. And easy mode raid wouldn’t have to tie up “raid resources” either, it could be handled by an entirely separate team if the work involved was more than trivial.

- Unless easy mode gives unique/additional rewards, there is no reason to run it, if you can already beat the normal mode. I don’t know anyone who runs infantile mode SAB, if they can already beat normal mode. Just not worth it.

And that’s fine if it turns out to be the case. Easy mode raid is not FOR people who can already beat hard mode, it is for those that cannot. If hard mode raiders see no point in running it, then that’s perfectly alright. At least they would have the option of running it, while those who cannot compete hard mode do not currently have the option of running an easy mode instead. More options, good.

- Legendary armor, while technically a separate tier of gear, is really just a fancy skin. Some in this thread want an easy mode partly/mostly because they want legendary armor.

Stop trying to convince people to not care about Legendary armor. You will change exactly zero minds. If you don’t care about Legendary armor, then that’s fine, obviously you would have no reason to object to everyone having it, but if other people do care about Legendary armor then that’s fine too, that can be their position and you don’t have to agree with it for it to be a valid one.

Some people hate fractals. Some people hate pvp. Some people hate map completion. So they won’t get legendaries, unless they buy them or bite the bullet. Same with raids.

But yet again, the skill and time investment in these activities is far below what the raids currently require.

Instanced dungeons were very hard at release. Instanced fractals were hard. Season 2 had hard instances.

I didn’t do any dungeons at launch because I was way underleveled and mostly uninterested, but I was running Fractals on day one, and never encountered one that I couldn’t beat. Where does this “Fractals were difficult early on” nonsense come from?

And as for the dungeons, that had more to do with players having no idea how to pilot their own characters, or being ridiculously underleveled for the content. Neither of those would apply to the raids.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

This was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.
As for “retains more players than silverwastes” claim, it’s also not there. The only info we get is a comparison between competitive and noncompetitive players on 1 to 1 basis. There’s no info about relative numbers of one group to the other and no comparison of groups as a whole.

TexZero.7910:

As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9

Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?

I see no numbers about how many players raids retain in this game whatsoever. I see no number comparisons between pvp and other modes either.

You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.

The video was in response to a player saying PvP doesnt retain players more than PvE. Video proof otherwise plus charts and graphs withing showcasing this.

You asked for anytime anet has said anything with numbers, in regards to a previous conversation about people working on raids, i’ve provided the numbers in regards to that.

To the people who claim their internet is so bad they can’t watch a youtube video…Get real, you have enough time to be here posting and to play the game you have enough internet to watch a video. So either watch it, or stop complaining for sources. Thanks.

Why are you even arguing this point with them? They are asking you for numbers while giving speculation of their own that goes against what anet has said.

They are asking you for specific numbers because apparently broad statements from anet aren’t good enough for them. They are dragging this argument out because they have no facts or basis to stand on. You’re only giving them legitimacy by arguing points that they make in bad faith.

TexZero.7910:

You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.

Let me clear this up for you, They were talking about raids, this topic is about raids, if you wanted to start discussing PvP, this is the wrong topic.

So let me simply this for you, If that video is not about Raids, and their direct affect on player retention in this game, it adds absolutely nothing to this topic.

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way.

I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.

The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

Good god correlation=/= causation, what even is this ridiculousness of an attempt to try to even resemble an actual point?

As already pointed out, RisingDusk has stated that raids have helped player retention, what else do you kittening need?

randomguy.1283:

As already pointed out, RisingDusk has stated that raids have helped player retention, what else do you kittening need?

Proof.
Got any?

randomguy.1283:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way.

I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.

The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

Good god correlation=/= causation, what even is this ridiculousness of an attempt to try to even resemble an actual point?

As already pointed out, RisingDusk has stated that raids have helped player retention, what else do you kittening need?

LOL, if those kinds of numbers supported your stand, you would be clinging to them like a child to a spit covered blanket, you know it too.

You cling to someone who made it clear they do not speak for Anet, and yet ignore cold hard fiscal facts.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.

Let me clear this up for you, They were talking about raids, this topic is about raids, if you wanted to start discussing PvP, this is the wrong topic.

So let me simply this for you, If that video is not about Raids, and their direct affect on player retention in this game, it adds absolutely nothing to this topic.

I too like not following the discussion only to side track to make my point legitimate.

Please follow the quotes and the discussion before taking quotes of context and claiming for proof only to be given that proof and dismiss it for being off topic.

The proof given was relevant to the quotes at hand, you don’t like it fine but don’t you dare accuse me of being off topic when it was relevant to the topic at hand.

TexZero.7910:

The proof given was relevant to the quotes at hand, you don’t like it fine but don’t you dare accuse me of being off topic when it was relevant to the topic at hand.

No it wasn’t. The Original Quote was about Raids. As such, it does not move from that. It does not become PvP, because someone made a passing comment that PvP league was as effective as the Raids in Retaining People. Which you said was better then Silverwastes.

Now, to follow that, you still need to go all the way back to the Original quote, which was about Raids, You do not get to stop half way up the line, at the PvP one. So when I asked for Proof, you needed to Provide Proof that PvP League and Raids pertained to player retention. Which would have kept your post on Topic. Which again, you failed to do.

So do you have anything of worth to add to this discussion about Raids?

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way.

I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.

The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

I think this is probably the most egregious failure to recognize correlation vs causation that I have ever seen.

WoW has raids and GW2 didn’t have raids, and WoW lost people so clearly this is because people were driven away by raids.

wat

There are so many other more powerful factors here. How about WoW being ancient and boring combat? How about WoW having ancient and boring quest archetypes, confrontational node gathering and kill stealing and aging graphics and a changing consumer base?

You’re just cherry picking 2 completely unrelated pieces of information, drawing lines between them and then claiming a great success! I think this method of fallacious arguing was popularized by Rush Limbaugh and his infamous chalkboard. You would be wise not to emulate it.

TexZero.7910:

To the people who claim their internet is so bad they can’t watch a youtube video…Get real, you have enough time to be here posting and to play the game you have enough internet to watch a video. So either watch it, or stop complaining for sources. Thanks.

i just took a speedtest. just now. twice actually. i got bored waiting for the first one to finish.. it hung up because it was going so slow. YES i play with this connection (i’m infamous among my circle of friends for my sudden bouts of lag and random disconnects). NO i cannot watch a video unless it’s 10-20 seconds long. it’s artificially choked by my source (NO i am not bootlegging or stealing it in any way shape or form). i DREAD patch days. it took me a week to download the expac. i imagine the same could happen to others.

now quit being a kitten and, asking nicely here, PLEASE answer the question as asked, because NO, not everyone can slog through a 30 minute video, but still (barely) have enough signal to play.

Fay.2357:

WoW has raids and GW2 didn’t have raids, and WoW lost people so clearly this is because people were driven away by raids.

he said they left a game with raids… to play a game without raids…

its not that the raids drove them away… and of course other factors are involved.. new shiny vs ancient. gameplay mechanic differences… all sorts of things…point being, tho. obviously they didn’t come here to play raids. and obviously they weren’t retained (or retained ENOUGH) by ones they had.

meh. >shrug<

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way.

I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.

The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

People keep forgetting that GW2 explorable dungeons were supposed to be this game’s equivalent to raids. They weren’t called raids. So what. You have zero proof that any given percentage of that 6M came here because there was nothing called raids. Who is to say how many of that number were players who like raids and were willing to get a B2P game as something new or as a second game on the chance that ANet came through with their vision for dungeons? A lot more people believed Anet then than do now, for one thing.

Sorry, your numbers are large, but not demonstrative of the point. They also have nothing to do with whether the raid demographic can help to sustain this MMO. That’s what I’ve been debating (and I thought you were, also)

Look, I don’t think anyone is going to dispute that there is a very large casual demographic. It’s likely the biggest sub-group, especially in this game. However, casual does not necessarily correlate with hating raids. It just means one chooses not to, or is casual about doing them.

katz.8376:

Fay.2357:

WoW has raids and GW2 didn’t have raids, and WoW lost people so clearly this is because people were driven away by raids.

he said they left a game with raids… to play a game without raids…

its not that the raids drove them away… and of course other factors are involved.. new shiny vs ancient. gameplay mechanic differences… all sorts of things…point being, tho. obviously they didn’t come here to play raids. and obviously they weren’t retained (or retained ENOUGH) by ones they had.

meh. >shrug<

It’s still a ridiculous conclusion to draw. Nobody is trying to say that that raids alone will sustain a game. The argument being made is that raids will attract a significant amount of players and give them a reason to continue playing the game without causing a downside elsewhere.

Yeah, some people probably have quit because of raids, but these people are an extremely noisy but extremely small minority. They’re the sort of people that skip from game to game getting irrationally angry about little things that don’t matter, and Anet couldn’t care less about these people once they’ve paid their HoT fee.

The majority of players don’t care either way. Raids won’t be something they do, but they also are intelligent enough to not get all fussy about the fact that raids exist, and that’s ok. These players are unaffected by raids in either a positive or a negative direction.

Additionally, raids don’t cause a significant strain on the Anet development capabilities. We know that the raid team is at most 5% of the total development team at Anet. This aligns very nicely with rough estimations of what proportion of players are active in raiding, making it a very good allocation of resources.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

The proof given was relevant to the quotes at hand, you don’t like it fine but don’t you dare accuse me of being off topic when it was relevant to the topic at hand.

No it wasn’t. The Original Quote was about Raids. As such, it does not move from that. It does not become PvP, because someone made a passing comment that PvP league was as effective as the Raids in Retaining People. Which you said was better then Silverwastes.

Now, to follow that, you still need to go all the way back to the Original quote, which was about Raids, You do not get to stop half way up the line, at the PvP one. So when I asked for Proof, you needed to Provide Proof that PvP League and Raids pertained to player retention. Which would have kept your post on Topic. Which again, you failed to do.

So do you have anything of worth to add to this discussion about Raids?

Really now here is the exact quote you pulled….

Manthas.6234:

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

Here is the hard link so you don’t think im “manipulating” anything here. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-you-think-Raids-in-GW2-were-a-bad-idea/page/28#post6096035

I boldfaced answered your desire.

For the guy whose internet is literally can’t load a video. Attached is a screenshot of the numbers from the video. Which also has more data and you really should watch as they cover more than just what is shown.

*thank you* for the screenshot.

to be fair, though... that’s a discussion about pvp, not raids. but it does answer the question of pvp retaining better than Silverwastes.

meh. back to lagging my way through WvW. this convo is boring again.

katz.8376:

thank you for the screenshot.

to be fair, though… that’s a discussion about pvp, not raids. but it does answer the question of pvp retaining better than Silverwastes.

meh. back to lagging my way through WvW. this convo is boring again.

You’re joking right ?

Average player time is the very definition of retaining players, the video was released at the time silverwaste was in it’s prime. If those numbers don’t give you the idea that PvP > PvE as far as retaining players, then nothing will because you never wanted it too.

Fay.2357:

WoW has raids and GW2 didn’t have raids, and WoW lost people so clearly this is because people were driven away by raids.

I never said this. This is a direct lie about me and my stand.

I said players left a game with raids, I never said they were driven away by raids. I want an apology, and if you want to continue this discussion, I expect you to respect me and what I am saying.

TexZero.7910:

katz.8376:

thank you for the screenshot.

to be fair, though… that’s a discussion about pvp, not raids. but it does answer the question of pvp retaining better than Silverwastes.

meh. back to lagging my way through WvW. this convo is boring again.

You’re joking right ?

Average player time is the very definition of retaining players, the video was released at the time silverwaste was in it’s prime. If those numbers don’t give you the idea that PvP > PvE as far as retaining players, then nothing will because you never wanted it too.

dafrik did you miss about me saying “it answers the question.”. and you say I’M the one that’s joking? i’d make a snide comment right now, but i’d rather not catch an infraction for something so silly.

but really. was i unclear?

IndigoSundown.5419:

They also have nothing to do with whether the raid demographic can help to sustain this MMO. That’s what I’ve been debating (and I thought you were, also)

My point was only to question if raids would be good for this game. Honestly, given the many deliberate moves by proponents of raids to misrepresent and even outright lie about other players, not even counting the personal insults, and malicious assumptions, during what should be a polite discussion, I can honestly say, that raids are not good for the community, for some reason they really bring out the worst in some people. Now I would love to believe that is was isolated, but, it’s really an ongoing and widespread epidemic though this and it’s sister topic.

I don’t think there is anything further to gain in this discussion, at least not for me. Some of the posters here have truly cemented why GW2 was much better off without raids, buy the actions and direction they took to defend them.

I’ve said my bit. If you want to disagree with me, that’s fine. But I’ve wasted enough time trying to have a discussion while slogging in this cesspool of of a topic. I’m out.

STIHL.2489:

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

August 28, 2012 to August 28, 2013 – ~2.5mn copies sold
January 24, 2015 – HoT announcement. It will contain raids and “Challenging challenges”
~Late 2013 to ~March 11, 2015 – 2.1mn copies sold
March 11, 2015 – “Guild Wars 2 has so far sold 4.6mn copies since its debut in August 2012, with around 2.5mn copies sold in its first year of release.” – KDB Daewoo Securities Games Company Update
June 16, 2015 – HoT pre-purchase start.
August 21, 2015 – “ArenaNet has revealed Guild Wars 2 has sold more than 5 million copies to-date.”
October 23, 2015 – “Guild Wars 2 celebrates 7 million accounts as heart of thorns arrives”

I can throw numbers around too. Mine can be checked with the news articles and fancy pdfs though.

STIHL.2489:

So do you have anything of worth to add to this discussion about Raids?

Do you? Thus far the answer seems to be no

STIHL.2489:

Now I would love to believe that is was isolated, but, it’s really an ongoing and widespread epidemic though this and it’s sister topic.

I’m not trying to drag you back into this discussion (I checked out of it myself), but I just wanted to say that it’s not fair to conflate toxicity with raiding because people in this game are (and have always been) toxic about everything. Kill one of the Octovines early (eve with 8-minutes remaining) and watch /map chat lose its mind. Remember what running dungeons was like? (Necro=kick) People are toxic even in the most trivial environments: Remember the Queensdale Champion train? God forbid you killed that troll “at the wrong time.” It was so bad that ArenaNet removed the Champions from the starting zones to get those people out of there.

Average player time is the very definition of retaining players,

Um, I hate to tell you, but no, it’s not. Players retention is about how long it is between when they start playing and when they stop in real time, it’s not about how many hours they spend playing. A PvPer could play twice as many minutes per week and burn out after three months never to return, that player was not retained. Another player might only spend a couple hours a week in the game but stick around for a decade, that player was retained. minutes played per week may have some value, but it has nothing to do with retention.

August 21, 2015 – “ArenaNet has revealed Guild Wars 2 has sold more than 5 million copies to-date.”
October 23, 2015 – “Guild Wars 2 celebrates 7 million accounts as heart of thorns arrives”

Note the distinction between 5 million units sold and 7 million accounts. It’s quite likely that at least a few of those accounts are F2P ones rather than copies of HoT sold, particularly since they have spoken of having issues converting F2Pers into paying customers. They did have a significant sales jump in Q4 over previous quarters, but it doesn’t look like nearly enough to account for 2 million box sales, or even 500K. they made less in total over 2015 than they did over 2013, but it was a slight improvement over 2014 when nothing was going on.

I mean, I want GW2 to do well and all, but I’m not seeing evidence that HoT was a massive success by any means. And of course if they never bought HoT then they wouldn’t be able to enter the raid in the first place, so players who started playing and didn’t buy HoT clearly weren’t doing it for the raid.

Competitive players play more that non-competitive players? Stop the printing press, colossal news incoming!^^ But still, how is the ratio from competitive to non-competitive players?

Anet treated his celebrities so well that some people quit mid season or in matches. Great stuff. By the way, I know not one PvP pro of GW2 and exactly 2 PvE reviewers by name.

If Anet was only capable of doing all these things and not just one at a time as if they were working as package workers in a factory, only one thing at a time.

PvP at least did it better than PvE this time. Even it is still boring to watch and play, you can get some easy AP without needing hours to understand how it works.

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way.

I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.

The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.

That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.

Do you have anything even remotely close to that?

Hmm,

Every single person that bought GW2 bought a game which the developers stated, prior to launch, would include Anet’s take on raids/raid-like content. So, 100% of all GW2 players came to a game that had been announced as having its own version of games. But less than 100% of all GW2 players left old-school raid focused games to come here.

By the way, are you sure about six million copies sold? Sold copies, not accounts created (many of them free accounts and some of those back up accounts for people who had a separately purchased account)?

TexZero.7910:

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

The proof given was relevant to the quotes at hand, you don’t like it fine but don’t you dare accuse me of being off topic when it was relevant to the topic at hand.

No it wasn’t. The Original Quote was about Raids. As such, it does not move from that. It does not become PvP, because someone made a passing comment that PvP league was as effective as the Raids in Retaining People. Which you said was better then Silverwastes.

Now, to follow that, you still need to go all the way back to the Original quote, which was about Raids, You do not get to stop half way up the line, at the PvP one. So when I asked for Proof, you needed to Provide Proof that PvP League and Raids pertained to player retention. Which would have kept your post on Topic. Which again, you failed to do.

So do you have anything of worth to add to this discussion about Raids?

Really now here is the exact quote you pulled….

Manthas.6234:

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

Here is the hard link so you don’t think im “manipulating” anything here. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-you-think-Raids-in-GW2-were-a-bad-idea/page/28#post6096035

I boldfaced answered your desire.

For the guy whose internet is literally can’t load a video. Attached is a screenshot of the numbers from the video. Which also has more data and you really should watch as they cover more than just what is shown.

The numbers in that screenshot say nothing about retention.

Average play time is not retention. If a competitive player plays 838 minutes per week while a noncompetitive player plays 722 minutes per week, but the noncompetitive player plays twice as many weeks he will have played more hours and will represent longer retention. In addition, if there are twice as many noncompetitive players (and that is being generous) then they as a group play more hours per week, and if time played equals revenue (as claimed in the screenshot) then noncompetitive players, as a group, generate more revenue.

Every single person that bought GW2 bought a game which the developers stated, prior to launch, would include Anet’s take on raids/raid-like content.

No.

Ohoni.6057:

Every single person that bought GW2 bought a game which the developers stated, prior to launch, would include Anet’s take on raids/raid-like content.

No.

100% of all purchases of GW2 occured at a time after Anet described the game as including their version of raids. Unless you can argue that 2012 (and later) comes before 2011, you are mistaken.

yeh pretty distinctly recall them saying that dungeons was their substitute for raid content and that didn’t pan out very well in the long term

100% of all purchases of GW2 occured at a time after Anet described the game as including their version of raids. Unless you can argue that 2012 (and later) comes before 2011, you are mistaken.

Whatever they chose to call dungeons internally, nobody outside if ANet understood dungeons to be “raid content.” They were all five-man dungeons, and everyone knows that is a dungeon, not a raid.

Ohoni.6057:

100% of all purchases of GW2 occured at a time after Anet described the game as including their version of raids. Unless you can argue that 2012 (and later) comes before 2011, you are mistaken.

Whatever they chose to call dungeons internally, nobody outside if ANet understood dungeons to be “raid content.” They were all five-man dungeons, and everyone knows that is a dungeon, not a raid.

This article is from 2011, well before launch.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

Ashen is correct.

Yeah, I’m kind of sorry for bringing e-sports into this discussion, my bad.

All I wanted to say was is, that if a game developer needs to defend his decision by saying “it works fine/helps a lot”, something is clearly not that good.
It’s understandable, that decision might have a rough start and developers may want to give it some time to work. And raids kind of must work, since I doubt that Anet has any more room left for another change of focus.

To some people: learn the difference between PvP and e-sports.

This article is from 2011, well before launch.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

Yeah, but by the time launch came around, we had a better idea of what that actually meant, and that it would not, in fact, be anything like raids. Project change while in development, and things they day well before launch should not be taken as something that launch players were expected to know.

Note that he also said:
“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. "

Which was completely untrue within a couple months of launch.

Ohoni.6057:

This article is from 2011, well before launch.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

Yeah, but by the time launch came around, we had a better idea of what that actually meant, and that it would not, in fact, be anything like raids. Project change while in development, and things they day well before launch should not be taken as something that launch players were expected to know.

Note that he also said:
“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. "

Which was completely untrue within a couple months of launch.

That was completely true up until fractals were released, and only became semi-untrue at that point because of implementation blunders.

That was completely true up until fractals were released, and only became semi-untrue at that point because of implementation blunders.

And yet to this day is it completely untrue, so if they didn’t intend for it to be true then they would have fixed it by now.

Ohoni.6057:

And yet to this day is it completely untrue, so if they didn’t intend for it to be true then they would have fixed it by now.

They don’t address dungeons because they’re built poorly and they’d need to rebuild them from the ground up, so they were better off just making a completely new dungeon.

Which they did. And the only difference is that you need 10 people, not 5.

I find it funny you give Ohoni a direct quote from a Dev and he says that doesn’t count…. You can never reason with people like that.

They don’t address dungeons because they’re built poorly and they’d need to rebuild them from the ground up, so they were better off just making a completely new dungeon.

Which they did. And the only difference is that you need 10 people, not 5.

No, the point being addressed was that “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game," which would be nice, but hasn’t been true since Ascended was added.

I find it funny you give Ohoni a direct quote from a Dev and he says that doesn’t count…. You can never reason with people like that.

It counts as a quote, it exists, it just doesn’t make the case you want it to. It was a fairly early aspirational quote, and the premise being discussed was whether people buying GW2 at launch had a reasonable expectation that it would be “raid friendly.” Well no, Colin mentioned the word “raid” in an interview, but the actual dungeons were reasonably understood by launch to be nothing whatsoever like typical MMO “raids.” If anything, Claw of Jormag was the closest thing launch GW2 had to “raids.”

Ohoni.6057:

No, the point being addressed was that “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game," which would be nice, but hasn’t been true since Ascended was added.

No, the point was ‘dungeons were the launch raid content’. You decided to change the point.

Sarrs.4831:

No, the point was ‘dungeons were the launch raid content’. You decided to change the point.

And they made a raid content after some time, — open world raids. Or you have information about their plans to make specific instanced raids?

TexZero.7910:

The video was in response to a player saying PvP doesnt retain players more than PvE. Video proof otherwise plus charts and graphs withing showcasing this.

Actually, no, it doesn’t say that. It says that PvP players on average tend to stay in game longer than PvE ones… on 1:1 basis. It didn’t even try to compare whole groups of players however. A content can have lower retention effect on an individual player while at the same time retaining many more players than a content that has a much better retaining factor, but on a much smaller population. The video didn’t address that at all.

TexZero.7910:

You asked for anytime anet has said anything with numbers, in regards to a previous conversation about people working on raids, i’ve provided the numbers in regards to that.

Err, nope? You posted those links in answer to Stihl asking for confirmation on statements that “Raids are contributing to player retention.” and “PvP retains more players than Silverwaste”. Your links didn’t have anything to prove either of those claims. In fact, the second link didn’t even have a passing relation to those.

Sarrs.4831:

No, the point was ‘dungeons were the launch raid content’. You decided to change the point.

Yes. They were to be the “launch raid content”… in about the same way as “damage, control, support” was to be GW2’s trinity. So, not really the same at all. And they were very clear about that too.

Rednik.3809:

And they made a raid content after some time, — open world raids.

world bosses already existed
but they dont fill the holes that raids are supposed to
difficult content

Rednik.3809:

Or you have information about their plans to make specific instanced raids?

nothing that hasn’t been posted already

I think raids good to interests new players, but :
- they shouldnt focus on them over dungeons and other kind of “casual” contents, because the majority of the players arent hardcore gamers, especially on this game.
- they should have balanced classes. If healer is required we should have more options than druid for that role. Some classes are “too much” usefull while others are useless. A true raiding game cannot accept that.

Scipion.7548:

- they should have balanced classes. If healer is required we should have more options than druid for that role. Some classes are “too much” usefull while others are useless. A true raiding game cannot accept that.

Part of me wonders how 2xGuardian with healing symbols spamming Hammer would go.

No, the point was ‘dungeons were the launch raid content’. You decided to change the point.

Right, but the bit you were replying to was a comment specifically referencing the dev quote from the article discussing “permanent level 80 armor.” You got confused, it happens.

but they dont fill the holes that raids are supposed to
difficult content

but it was an awesome hole! Like on a doughnut. It was like “look at that magnificent hole! I bet if you patched that up it would ruin the whole thing!”

Ohoni.6057:

but it was an awesome hole! Like on a doughnut. It was like “look at that magnificent hole! I bet if you patched that up it would ruin the whole thing!”

bagles are amazing tho

is that a bagle or is it just like
a cake

just have cake anyway

i would never discriminate against baked goods based on holiness

Exactly! Bagels! Who wants a bagel without kitten in it?

[We appreciate the discussion. It appears to have runs its course. This thread is now closed.]