Guild Wars 2

Question: what would people think about having the WP mechanic where you can’t res whilst party is in combat scale in difficulty?

Allow modes of difficulty, and appropriate achievements, that mean you can turn the feature on or off according to how your group wants to play?

As it is, I think it favors those who have already kitted out from previous runs above those just starting.

I don’t think that’s fair. Mostly because when you do a dungeon with a level 80(s) they take a while longer to die. It is better for the party (group) that you are able to rerestruct immediately to rejoin the battle. But this is just what I think.

Thanks for reading
Percius

I plainly agree with most people posting here: No Rez-rushing will result in more sitting time and less dungeon runs for the inexperienced (like me, for instance) and no way to get more experienced, as well.
I hate this, particularly now I decided to go pug to run dungeons more frequently
FIX THIS BIG MISTAKE ASAP, PLEASE!!!

I don’t think that’s fair. Mostly because when you do a dungeon with a level 80(s) they take a while longer to die. It is better for the party (group) that you are able to rerestruct immediately to rejoin the battle. Also, this is unfair to players who are engaging in the last or final battle. you need a full team to defeat a legendary boss. For example. In CM explorer mode path 1, there are 4 legendary bosses. it will be impossible to finish all that without immediate re-restruction. You cannot defeat one of them when only 2 players are alive. Including the fact that it seems that legendary bosses have a wide-ranged lock-on ability, the players cannot get away from the boss. So that update will make dungeons very, very hard. If this update is installed there can only be 3 ways to fix it.
1. Make the reviving faster so the player can come back in battle.
2. Make dungeon bosses unable to regenerate they’re health.
3. Make it so that the down penalty is no longer a part of the game or at least not part of the dungeon
I think that this update will make dungeons more irritating (they’re not right now but this update will make them.) and more challenging. It might also make them a waste of time because the dungeons even now take up a lot of time but this will make a dungeon go from 1 hour and 30 minutes to 3 hours or more. I hope you take this under consideration. But of course this is my opinion, you might think differently from me. Except from what I see from the people who came on before me, everyone has agreed on the same thing.

Thanks for reading
Percius

I would really like to feel rewarded for completing dungeons.
By that I mean, I don’t want to kill the same boss, or repeat the same dungeon in one of three possible different scenarios just to receive a small number of tokens of some sort that I can use toward 1/5th of a single piece of gear. I love running dungeons, but I hate the feeling of knowing that even if I ran each separate ‘path’ an even number of times, I’d likely be running EACH ‘path’ four or five times a piece just to have enough to buy a set of gear.
This is typically why I instead run around exploring, which gives me Gold which I then use to buy gear from the Trading Post, because obtaining enough Gold for a set of armor doesn’t feel anywhere near as tedious as running a dungeon over and over for it’s gear.
I LOVE Guild Wars 2, and there are some really amazing things about it; the lack of a required Tank/Heal/DPS is amazing, because when I play games that do require those roles, I almost always end up enjoying most the types of characters that allow for versatility. I love that Guild Wars 2 lets me be versatile no matter what I’m playing so that I can play how and why I want, not WHAT I HAVE to play.

Well, the general consensus seems to be this WP update is nonsense. Hopefully it will be reversed before too long.

I’d like to see something that encourages killing mobs between bosses instead of just sprinting between bosses, which seems like the way dungeons are run currently.

It would be nice if it were possible to see the actual health value of all enemies and targets (including other players) on the target health bar. It is very frustrating trying to attack an enemy that you have no clue what the numerical value of their health is.

Zeus CM.1692:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

So now CoF path 2 with Magg…we now have an assassin to deal with that will not leave Magg and the problem groups are still there, along with the new waypoint system in the dungeons I am failing to see how this is balancing the dungeon at all. If anything it makes people not ever want to run this path again. We just attempted it several times and…yeah. This needs to be seriously looked at and revised. Normally I’m all bout giving changes a fair chance, but this is over the top.

You obviously didn’t try it. It’s much easier then before. With some AoE you won’t have a problem.

Maybe you missed the part where I said we tried it a few times. We did eventually clear it just now before the patch reset, but we had to completely redo the group to nothing but aoe classes. I fail to see how this fixes the dungeon at all and everyone seems to be dodging this point.

Also, can I ask if the drop rate in Fractals was fiddled with?

I just went on a level 20 run (I’m 34 level) but from the start, through the Snow fractal, and up to the Ie Elemental end boss on Dredge (who is now OP in my opinion) and I got one rare from teh bosses, chest and mobs. And it was a Glacial Lodestone.

No res rushing will make some of these dungeon events especially timing events not challenging but tedious. Offhand I immediately think of Citadel of the Flame. Not sure the path, but having to keep the gnome safe while he blows the walls. It is kitten near impossible to stay alive in there without a coordinated res rush

Flaw: Players cannot heal fallen party members in combat (due to becoming #1 on the aggro threat check). Fallen players cannot Rez so have to wait for the party to win, or wipe.

Fix: Remove healing from the threat assessment check for NPCs. Considering when someone is rezzing a party member their DPS drops to nil (or whatever pets are delivering) so their ‘threat’ is effectively nil.
Double the healing factor for rezzing downed/dead players only.

Flaw: Downed players are continually under aggro despite ‘live’ players becoming higher threats. NPCs (particularly adds) do not reassess targets and hammer on a downed player until they’re dead.

Fix: When a target is ‘down’ the NPC runs the threat assessment string again.

Flaw: Repair costs a bit steep.

Fix: Now that you’re effectively removed from play on death, that is more than penalty enough for flubbing. Reduce repair costs considerably.
Yes, repair costs will already be reduced because you only ‘die’ once… but still… repair costs add up scary fast, while rewards don’t add up at all.

Flaw: Mobs and bosses are not really any different. Certainly not reduced to compensate for the inability to return to the fight (due to the first flaw noted above).

Fix: Reduce spawn HP and DPS by 30-50% depending on the expected ‘challenge level’ of the dungeon/instance.

I’m afraid I have to agree with many players on the whole WP rez thing – rez-rushing (although I detest this expression) makes sense in a lot of situations. Not rezzing a downed player in a lot of situation makes more sense, as it would in many cases actually cause a wipe to happen.
Loosing one player and waiting for him to get back makes more sense than the whole party wiping out because now they are attempting to revive just him, because there is no way he will get back there on his own.

I feel that instead of this drastic and a bit draconian change – redesign the parts of the dungeon that were simply poorly designed (yes, Magg, I’m looking at you!), not fun, or otherwise not doable.

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE to get my team-members revived, I don’t want to see anyone down while everyone else is having fun. I don’t want to be that person either, but sometimes its just what it is – every battle is different, every dungeon is different as well. I am really not happy about this decision.

Anyone wanna make a bet on this thread becoming mysteriously ignored like the “perceived loot drop rate issues” thread?

1. Rezrushing: I am a casual gamer, but I think rezrushing is bad in the long run. Teamwork and talking through tough boss fights before rushing in blindly is important. I say remove it in higher level dungeons, keep it for lower ones. To counteract the pain from rezrushing, you need to increase in battle rez speed. A problem with removing this though is you may be forcing people into specialized groups (experienced warriors ONLY, stuff like that) instead of making the learning curve lower and more accessible for everyone. I have not even touched Arah or Crucible of Eternity explorable because the learning curve was already too high.

2. Dungeon changes: I agree, you need to scale dungeons, some should be easy, and some should be extremely challenging if not impossible. The loot also scales pretty well to the difficulty of the dungeon.

3. About fractals: For some reason, I continue to get golds almost every time I open a chest in fractals, yet in dungeons like CoF and sorrows embrace i get nothing blues and greens and barely any lodestones (and no daily level 10 pristine relics!). All level 70-80 dungeons should have good loot! (not just the new ones such as fractals). Another thought on loot: have items/loot unique to a dungeon so that I feel compelled to go back and play dungeons that I haven’t played in a while. (lodestones for legendary weapons do not count, as i am a casual gamer, and do not have enough time for such nonsense).

I always hated the ‘if you’re dead you’re out’ mechanism in other MMOs. I was super-glad that GW2 didn’t have it. Nothing is more embarrassing than making a slight mistake, getting one-shotted because of missing the 0.5 second window to press the correct button and then spending the next 10 mins dead on the floor doing nothing while your team mates cuss at you for having made a mistake. It’s a horrible, horrible mechanic, particularly in a game where death comes comparatively fast (cough Lt. Kholer cough).

While I loved the rest of this patch, this one change soured it up so much that I am not sure if I will bother with dungeons anymore.

I just did cof2 and with a low dps party (only 1 heavy) we we unable to get through… I think the mobs that spawn should be reduced by 20%-30% or alot of partys with low dps will have alot of problems deal with that.

In response to the cancelling of “res-rushing”. totally agree that this was a bad change to make. just attempted to run COF p2, normally it take 15mins, its quick its fun and a great path. however with this new system it took 30mins and we dint finish it, my party members were angry, and over wiping. in the end after the 30min we called it quits and left the dungeon unfinished.

the res-rushing as you call was a great aspect, meaning if you died you come run back and keep helping your team. now its like World of Warcraft, because i have to wait for a res and inconveinence my team and because of the wipes the dungeons now take too long to do, which for me is a great turn off. i love a quick fun run of a dungeon before i leave for work, go to bed, got to lunch etc. now i just log out because i wont have the time. in my opinion and i’m sure a lot of other peoples i think this was a bad move to get rid of this ability.
Rene

I am pretty sure this has been beaten into the ground, but there really needs to be a group finder. I would consider myself fairly casual, and I love the idea of making dungeons requiring you to have a brain cell. Combining both of these elements would drastically increase players on servers, and revenue for GWdev.

Any game (including GW2) that wants to make money in the industry has to offer players an automated way to form groups for PvE content, large or small, to be successful. Its becoming the industry standard. The wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented but why put time and effort into the design and art of dungeons if its going to be wasted by players giving up LFG, as if this is Everquest or something, and we have infinite time to sit around. Some servers are dead, some players just don’t have time to be on at primetime, yada yada.

A dungeon coordinator wouldn’t turn this game into a WOW clone, although I am pretty sure some people would groan. I’d be willing to bet the ones that groan would use it willingly.

WHAT!?!?! this is stupid. First of all most dungeons you can run back faster than it takes a party member to rez you as well as taking that player out of the fight and helping others who are only down and not defeated. They have to run back and forth and the boss (who is stupidly overpowered to begin with) will be killing the others off with 1 hit attacks like most of them do. You trying to make the game challenging or drive people back to WoW or Rift? lmao

This waypoint change is going to make the colossus fractal practically impossible to complete for noob pugs. So many people fall off while learning the dungeon that having to backtrack to rez them is going to take forever. Maybe if you guys had added an express down elevator it would work but with this new change, noob PUGs won’t have a chance. Way to go from new player friendly to elitetism overnight. One more manifesto item out the window.

“Flaw: Players cannot heal fallen party members in combat (due to becoming #1 on the aggro threat check). Fallen players cannot Rez so have to wait for the party to win, or wipe.
Fix: Remove healing from the threat assessment check for NPCs. Considering when someone is rezzing a party member their DPS drops to nil (or whatever pets are delivering) so their ‘threat’ is effectively nil.
Double the healing factor for rezzing downed/dead players only.
Flaw: Downed players are continually under aggro despite ‘live’ players becoming higher threats. NPCs (particularly adds) do not reassess targets and hammer on a downed player until they’re dead.
Fix: When a target is ‘down’ the NPC runs the threat assessment string again.
Flaw: Repair costs a bit steep.
Fix: Now that you’re effectively removed from play on death, that is more than penalty enough for flubbing. Reduce repair costs considerably.
Yes, repair costs will already be reduced because you only ‘die’ once… but still… repair costs add up scary fast, while rewards don’t add up at all.
Flaw: Mobs and bosses are not really any different. Certainly not reduced to compensate for the inability to return to the fight (due to the first flaw noted above).
Fix: Reduce spawn HP and DPS by 30-50% depending on the expected ‘challenge level’ of the dungeon/instance.”
– Blaqwolf.1264

If I could 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th, etc… this I would.
Definitely, DEFINITELY some excellent suggestions.

ANet PLEASE take note.

I find that the Dungeons for the most part are tough as it is. Most times the bosses have God like abilities that we as players have no way of using enough boost to counter. I find it amazing how many 1 hit/kill bosses there are, even using exotic armor with superior mods. I believe a fix is needed, but not what your offering. Dungeons for smaller groups would make a lot sense for play during slow times

I had hoped that GW2 would maintain it’s graphics and environments as the original GW1. With the exception of expamding the storyline into a different era, but thats not the case. Seems that you had it right with the GW1 gameplay, maybe you shouldn’t have tried to fix what wasn’t broke, just enhance it. There was a reason you had loyal players who played GW1 as long as 7 years. I’m already seeing players in GW2 leaving and going back to GW1 and other games. Something to think about.

Dungeons are now off the menu…. had hard enough time trying to get a team of 5 organised… Haven’t had good experience with random teams… leavers and soloist make it a journey into frustration. My guild consists of people who have real lives and vast time differences, so organizing outing a real trial. Hate many of the changes (yes hate!!) and this one, in my opinion, will just drive anyone not totally hardcore away from dungeons. There should be a solo dungeon option, or even a dungeon run for 2…. Anet, stop trying to force people to team up when they don’t want to.

To error is human.
Guild Wars/AreaNet has made a bit of a name for itself for “listening to the players” I think perhaps AN still is but ‘perhaps’ got out of order (in my opinion, if you care lol)

Phase 1: Would be to make a huge effort to inform the players about messing with the WP in dungeons, perhaps you did and I just missed it, but I missed any huge announcement.

Phase 2: Collect the info which would lead to understanding the ACTUAL gravity of the patch effect and player synergy from the point of the hardcore and casual. It’s not best for PR to just go ahead and do something like this. Otherwise your reverting to the things you and other players didn’t like in other games. Of course there are those that just say ok whatever…but those are the minority, and it is about the number of people who enjoy or do not enjoy the game.

Phase 3: Make a balanced change at the same time as the first one, just wait if you can’t, and not implement Phase 2 and then watch as Phase 1 plays out on the forums with a bunch of obviously already frustrated people, BUT YET still on the level of toleration WITH still being able to WP.

It’s just a thought based on reading this and other threads on the subject. Not sure it will be considered or is even relevant, as I don’t work at AN and I’m sure there are intangibles in the game creation “war room” that we all are unaware of.

To error is human by game designer and game player, but always can be adjusted with the right attitude.
~Peace

I’ve completed many dungeons, many times, both story and explorable mode. I do enjoy your attempt to make the dungeons more challenging (and thus giving a better feeling of intense satisfaction upon completion), however, you are indirectly promoting flaming, rage-quitting and, to make it short… a rather not-so-pleasant experience in the end. Because some players will become very demanding, expecting everyone in their party to be a professional, never-mistaking player, leading to arguments and pointless hatred.

You should come up with a less punishing way to make dungeons more challenging (as IF some of them were not already insanely hard), because apparently, in the same way you want to make dungeons be closer to what they were initially designed for, you will end up converting an initially designed “fun co-op game”, into a “hardcore, time-wasting frustration feast”.

A recommendation, if I may: Add a new dungeon mode instead, where more dungeon tokens, karma and gold will be awarded from kills and instance completion, and as well there can be a better and higher chance for rare loot (Lodestones, exotics, big karma jugs, possibly legendary precursors, etc.) than what the pre-patch dungeons used to give. Players who want more goodies and a true challenge, will have to opt for the “Hardcore explorable mode” to get these. This way everyone will be happy.

All I can say is that after 8 years of playing warcraft I hope this game does not become too easy. It used to require thought to run dungeons in warcraft (shush I hear you all screaming ‘this aint warcraft’), and it was challenging, difficult, required people to behave and work together, that all changed over the years and the players became whiney and complained that the dungeon was taking too long, it was too hard, why is my loot always crap…. whine whine whine. OMG. Dungeons became a pain because people would leave halfway thru, they expected a 10-15 min run and loot at the end-“Next!”
When I came to Guild Wars I found once again the level of difficulty and the strategy required to complete the dungeons had returned to my gaming world. In my humble opinion I don’t think the dungeon mechanics are hard enough, but then I used to spend way too many nights in 40 man raids spending hours upon hours just to GET to a boss. I think Guild Wars has captured the difficulty without loosing the fun. I am a little disappointed to see all the damage reductions, however not being able to res-rush will maybe teach people how to play their toons and adjust their armor and traits and such so they don’t die so easily. I am probably alone in this thought, but I know my fellow vanilla warcrafters, many of whom now play GW2, would agree that Warcraft, (an epic game in its time), became too stupid and thus not challenging enough to keep interest, which is why so many of us have hung up our epic gear to play Guild Wars. Please don’t dumb down this game too much.

Thanks, Dona H.

sometimes less is more.
not noob friendly, even exp players can have a bad time in a newbish party but there are always a way around it.
like lower the damage output by mobs, more waypoints, lower armor repair cost, decrease resurrection healing time, increase players toughness/health or multiply the rewards and reintroducing potions.
with this patch we are going to see dungeons become less rewarding with the amount of deaths and time piling by ressing other players, at the same time we gonna see more players badmouthing those that die more than them which totally ruins the party system of teamwork. glass cannons definately will be discriminated the most, its also not fun when you bringing your party down with you.
if this patch is to remained unchanged it could change the dynamic of how to build your character as well. most people will role a guardian or a warrior for dungeons or go fully defensive on the build.

ANet seems to be doing a pretty good job of listening to their players, adapting the game and trying to constantly make it more fun. Long gone are the days of Everquest where any player suggestion is like a sacrilege. I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt and see how it goes. If it’s not fun or broken, I’m sure they will change it.

Since they asked for input, however:
I like the idea of having options for a dungeon to have “res-rushing” or not, depending on desired challenge/loot.
I also think it’d be a good idea to have a sort of milestone within each boss that allows either a player to rally, or the boss to have limited resetting. For instance if the a boss’ health bar where to have sections that if reached would allow a downed player to rez, or if everyone wiped, his health would only reset to that point. (I’ve always felt if we hurt the boss he should at least stay hurt for a while, right?)

Just my 2 cents.

Robert,

First, thank you for the opportunity to provide feedback and thoughts. I’m posting as a casual-to-moderate player and I deliberately have not read the other replies as I don’t want them to influence my input/feedback.

I just found out via your post that “rez-rushing” was being removed. I understand the reasons and agree with the theory; that said, I want to share with you that my overall experience in dungeons to date has largely been a variant the old “Tootsie Roll Pop” commercial: “How many deaths does it take to complete the dungeon?” Even with “experienced people”, there are often fights that you simply do not win without at least one death in the process…. particularly if you’re running to try and acquire gear that you need to live through those fights.

It’s going to be interesting to see how/where adjustments have been made, but I strongly suspect that multi-layered requirements (i.e., keep moving, don’t let X get you, remember to Y if Z shows up, and oh yeah, tap dance through the berserk grubs that attack in randomly-directed waves by spitting poison anywhere the boss ISN’T laying down his own ‘circle of stupid’) is a bigger issue than pure HP.

I suppose it’s worth mention that most of my dungeon attempts are with people who are new, who haven’t dungeon’ed a lot. Also that most people tend to rush in rather than try to be strategic. But I would also say that this behavior is largely in response to convoluted and often complex mechanics that cause most to find “rez-rushing” the path of least resistance (i.e., I’m going to die repeatedly anyway… may as well just run back).

Myself? I’m not someone who has a lot of dexterity so, by and large, I wind up avoiding dungeons because I’m just not that good at balancing eight competing critical priorities and timing all my spells… just…. right. (This does seem to be the new cookie cutter mold and I admit, I dislike it.)

Complexity as mechanic, to me, isn’t very enjoyable. And complexity as primary mechanic across the whole of the dungeon experience, frankly, is frustrating and eventually, boring. If the goal is to drive team-work (and the underlying community upon which it is founded), these encounters should reward that community so that team-work (even of clearly less dexterous folk, or those who are learning) is REWARDED, not punished.

I note you provide multiple ways for people to attain those “hearts” in the world; if you prefer to kill/collect, then do that. If you prefer to find/dismantle/repair, then do that. If you prefer one on one combat, talk to NPC X and they’ll oblige you.

I suppose my question is… why can’t this be possible in dungeons, too? (It is possible, but I’ve yet to see many games really explore it.)

As for rezzing… Personally, I began play of this game with the expectation that players would rezz you when you fall in action. I find it rarely occurs. I suspect forcing the matter will help (some), but the greater help would be a dungeon-specific boost to resurrection or at least dumping the aggro/hate of the downed/defeated player correctly.

(Of course I realize that if the rezzer is the next up on the ol’ hate list, that likely won’t seem much help, but that just brings me to my next concern… )

I am concerned that if waiting until everyone is out of combat is the “fix”, then it’s essentially going to turn into an “everyone die and we’ll try again” scenario and that doesn’t tend to support commitment to pick up groups OR new players; those who have better reflex/twitch/insight on fights will quickly prefer those who do and now, you have an entire second class citizenry who lose access to the “trial and error” learning method that has been foundational to MMO gaming since its inception. (Or who are relegated to the frustration of running with people like me, who frankly suck at “the dance” and, either way, have a much less enjoyable experience as the ultimate result.)

I do realize that a lot of dungeon content is intended to be exclusionary as a means of introducing “status”… but I’d like to think that it’s possible to compromise in a way that allows even new players and dexterity challenged fools like me the possibility of achieving the same rewards… even if at a slower pace over time.

Again, thanks for listening. I look forward to see what is next to arrive.

I can still see a rather humorous hole in the change to the rez mechanic. If you kite long enough without exchanging hits but while staying within an enemy’s leash distance you won’t lose aggro but you will exit combat. Running in circles long enough will allow all of your team to revive without resetting a boss.

This seems backwards, reworking the bosses, great, making it so we don’t have to wp a million times, great. But you left everything pretty hard, AND we can’t use wps.

On a more constructive note, Why not add a cool down to waypointing when dead like in pvp? Have the cool down increase for number of times you waypoint, or something. Taking away the waypoints all together seems to just deter people from trying.

In my experience the main reason for res-rushing is the enormous amount of time it takes for allies to get you back up once you’re defeated. If it were as fast as getting up a downed player, getting people back up would happen a lot more often. As is, it can be faster to just res and run back in.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Needs more development of grouping mechanics, I was really hoping to see some news about grouping tools.

I have loved this game, BUT I gave up on doing dungeons a long time ago. They are WAAAAAAY to hard, and I have 3 lvl 80’s, and 2 of them have 100% world completion. In fact, when I am done developing my Guardian, I will probably just stop playing BECAUSE THE DUNGEONS ARE WAAAAAAY TO HARD!

At first they were ok, but then someone made them like 5 times harder, AND when I have died 10 times, my reward is a stinking blue level item!!!! I hate that.

Please LESSEN our frustration with the dungeons by making them the levels they are supposed to represent. In other words, a level 35 dungeon should be doable with 5 level 35 players, who play as level 35 players are used to playing.

<Sigh> – bottom line, I hate the dungeons right now. If u don’t make them easier to play, then I (and many other people) will just plain leave.

Atrius.8759:

In my experience the main reason for res-rushing is the enormous amount of time it takes for allies to get you back up once you’re defeated. If it were as fast as getting up a downed player, getting people back up would happen a lot more often. As is, it can be faster to just res and run back in.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

^ This

More often than not people didn’t try to res fallen comrades not because they are lazy or not teamwork oriented, but because it’s usually a flat out bad idea to do that. I dare saying that most deaths I ever encountered in a dungeon happened when I tried to res someone else and thus became a sitting duck for what feels like an eternity. If people didn’t play the game the way the devs seem to want it to be played, it’s because the res mechanic is broken and punishes players for actually trying get a dead ally back up during combat.

I like the idea of removing the “res-rushing” but, just today, I had a team member stuck in the turrents of the dredge mission in fractals dungeon. He got stuck after he destroyed the turrent and was unable to get out. So, we all agreed to be wiped out to restart from a checkpoint. Problem was we all died except him because the NPC’s couldnt hit him and he stayed in combat mode. He elected to leave the party so we can continue without him (very noble of him) but it took us all out of Fractals and to Lion’s Arch. What im saying is, what if a bug or problem occurs and the ones facing the problem cant die while the others are dead? The only option will be to quit and restart from the beginning, which isnt great at all.
Another thing, we would all appreciate a bit better loots and treasures in dungeons.

you started the zerg rush when your bosses kill people out right with out a chance to dodge or the aggro table jumps from person to person. Also when you have 20 some mobs with three elites that are some times as hard as the bosses. That is why you have people using exploits to get past large areas. I love a challenge as much as the next guy but all it seems to be in dungeons is a zerg rush to get through or hope some one can kite the boss around till they get back. you should switch phase 1 and 2 around. All your doing by starting with phase 1 first is making the dungeon last longer because everyone has to run back. You should look at the boss and encounters first because that could solve all your problems and in doing so would stop the zerg runs in the first place. Taking away the res then work on mobs is like putting two band aids on the same wound. if you take care of the encounters first then see if the way point change is needed would save you a lot of time.

Dungeons before were a tad hard to begin with from a casual perspective (PUGS) but now it’s a whole other story.
FYI I’m fine with the rez rushing fix. If you’re dying often then you need to gear up or skill up.
The issue I encountered was the down level weakness. I was taking some pretty crazy damage in AC with my Warrior in full Knights exotics. It became less about knowing what hit you can take and what hit you need to dodge and more about running around like mad with < 2k hp because there was no hit you could take.

This pushed it over the edge for me and I’ll be sitting out this game for a while. I like a challenge but I didn’t come here to play Dark Souls. I’m a pretty casual player when it comes to MMOs and I don’t feel there is enough reward for the frustration inflicted with the level scaling deal in dungeons. (it’s just fine in PvE)

will u fix fractal NEW SKILL in bosses like ice elemental in 40+ that u cant dodge or we all have to stop fractals for 1 month till we get the amulet cuz very smart = u want progress wait 30 days / or u have to be lucky( no more) to get the correct bosses

So… can we safely assume fractals is now slightly easier than every other dungeon (that practically required rez-rushing for parties that weren’t spec’d into VERY specific builds)???

I mean like… fractals 1-5 is do-able with 4 man teams wearing masterwork and above gear… while 5 man teams with full exos in the basic dungeons (AC, CM, TA, CoF… etc) have a heck of a time… at some points relying on rez-rushing in certain paths…

I highly doubt its possible to do a normal explore dungeon with a pug group with a decent comp of 1-2 heavies or bunkers and 3 of any other classes… maybe possible if they are all on vent and arranged their builds… but that’s be going back to specific builds like we did in GW1… which is something I thought the Dev team was trying to “abolish” (sorry, I wish I could source it and write the exact words that were used, but… too lazy at the moment).

Many dungeons out there… its near impossible with people at the minimum level requirements (AC and CM… those are pretty kitten hard without abusing the environment… AC’s Detha path isn’t so bad though)

well those were my few cents on this patch… haven’t experienced it yet, but assuming mobs and difficulties have not changed yet, these are pretty solid arguments… Maybe I just haven’t grouped up with elitests enough… though I’ve already experience couple of people talking down on players who played dungeons for the first time… even though they mention they are new… (these guys go as far as calling people distasteful names etc… it really ruins the experience… with these changes… I can only see this happening more often [censorship applied for various reasons… but i have to assure… its extremely negative])

As for conspiracies…

I doubt the “drive up rez-stone sales up” conspiracy is true, but it does have some VERY strong co-relations… more deaths, use a rez-stone to get straight back into action… sounds convincing… but hard to believe… they COULD always just design more armour-skins to sell… the primeval armour seems to be used all over the place… (a PRIME example… pun intended).

They have tonnes of options available for generating Gem sales… … if they are worried about gold sellers taking away gem sales… they could always do something like… temporary account lock for IP change or charge an increasing cost to send mail more mails sent, more money charged based off money’s worth of the contents sent?

My Ideas and Suggestions for future development

Also… A-net please do something about town clothes… they seem to be pointless… would be nice if town clothes were default clothes in towns… otherwise it’s rarely seen. (Adding in normal town clothes that did stuff like passive speed boost in town would be amazing!!! would be cool if we could also purchase or make town clothes too!)

Lastly… I hope textiles work on forums in the near future… spoiler tags did absolutely nothing :< tried following the hints…

The feature in dungeons where if the party leader (as in the person who began/first entered the dungeon) leaves, the whole group gets kicked out is very unreasonable. It’s extremely discouraging if it does happen, and wastes a lot of time, varying on what dungeon a person is playing. Why would I want to waste hours of my time in Arah dungeons if, say the group leader got dced, and we all got kicked out? It is the opposite of fun. After you put all this time and effort, to be kicked out because of a silly mechanic is very sad.

Additionally, there was a bug that occurred in CoF Path 2 where after you kill the tri-set of bosses, you’re supposed to be able to “Interact” with some chains on a wall and that Interaction failed to show up in my group.

I understand that dungeons are meant to be hard, but it is very discouraging if only one team composition will guarantee success for a dungeon. In my personal experience, I’ve found that Arah bosses regenerate health disgustingly fast, which ultimately makes them unpopular to do. A little tweaking to the bosses regen rates would do wonders. The dungeons would still be almost impossible, but possible enough for more people to want to do them.

Thanks for the changes to the dungeons! I look forward to them!

why does FOTM lockout disconnected players and force the whole group to exit the instance and restart? This is really a negative aspect that has made more than one group I’ve been in disband and give up, especially if we’ve nearly finished the map.

Fully agree with a lot of what has been said in the thread so far.
For creating a better team experience the no wp travel issue while in battle has some merrit but this will leave a lot of players out in the cold as their “skill” and “gear” is not up to standard enough for the “group” they are able to go with. Before the change players already left groups when they felt the group is not up to their standard and this will now just be multiplied multiple times.
I played GW1 for 5 years and GW2 seemed a nice game since it promoted more team play but this just killed dungeons for me.
Will try the other changes but would rather invest my time in other games from now on rather than to sit around for ages to find a “willing” team to do a dungeon run with and have them leave you high and dry due to you not knowing the dungeon or not meeting someone in the team’s requirements.

I don’t like the so called rez-rushing. I come long ago from GW1 where we had to be really careful on our life level, specially the healer/proc. Moreover, each one of us had to wear a single-use rez-signet in his build, shorting the possible skill combinations we could use. Still, we managed to survive and have fun, all of it based on a great teamwork thanks to strengthen guilds and voip technologies.

I don’t like the so called rez-rushing. Now, there is no longer such a healer/proc, but we have many healing skills, we have a downed state, we have direct-rez from downed and dead state, we have reusable rez-signets from downed state, and yet you/we come here to complain. Even though I don’t like the so called rez-rushing, I come here to complain. Why?

Healing skills, not so. I really like that the triad healer character is gone, but healing skills are, in my opinion, far from being as effective. Sometimes, they are simply useless or not reliable, specially to heal a teammate.

Rez or die! The introduction of the downed and dead state system is really clever and gives much fun to the game. As pointed by Lucky.9421, one has, not only to rez fast, but also to do with a good teaming strategy. But, in contrast to GW1, GW2 has a more casual friendly gaming, and to team properly in such cases will depend on the skills of the teammates (obviously) and many non-skilled gamers (aka noobs) will be left aside.

Rez-signets suck. This is one of the point that I hate the most. Although the rez-signets are reusable (great difference with respect to GW1), they really, really suck. They never work as expected, have lots of tricky behaviors and some of them do not even work because they are simply bugged. As Elementalist, I have never been able to rez anybody with the Glyph of Renewal, ¡never! And they take a precious place in our build; even if we can change the build off-combat, skill selection is much more strict than in GW1.

Dungeons, pain and agony. Maybe a nice slogan, but sadly true. I like to have challenging dungeons that make me sweat so I enjoy more the game with an epic win; but, sincerely, some dungeons are simply painful. Must of us can’t stand six, seven, eight or even more hours playing a freaking maze. Don’t be surprised that afterwards many players exploit some bugs or unexpected behaviors of the game to surpass bugged bosses/mobs. Arah is truly Hell.

I don’t like the so called rez-rushing and this "no-WP while in-combat" thing may be the solution but I also dislike that you have introduced it before improving the other aspects of the game: correcting bugs, balancing mobs/bosses, adding WPs, etc.

To finish, just to say that, despite my and other’s complains, GW2 is one of the greatest games I ever played. Keep on your awesome work! (And, please, fix the freaking ficken bugs!!! hahahaha)

Kelly.5293:

I’m kind of disappointed in the new WP only if out of combat thing but will give it a fair shake.

That’s the spirit!

Lucky.9421:

The key to rezzing a defeated player is to have all but one player dpsing the boss and evading while they rez.

Indeed! But not as easy as it sounds.

Gussy.3907:

1. If no res-rushing, we need faster revive times or better revive buff.

Working rez-signets that is what we need.

BlackIce.5276:

Well, the general consensus seems to be this WP update is nonsense.

I disagree.

Oh boy where do I start off at I guess I should start looking for a different game to play. I am married and have 3 kids i try to get on later in the evening and run a few dungeons try to get the daily done in a reasonable amount of time and run around getting some more karma up. With this patch that has all went away. So I guess this is farewell. I get on this game to get away and have fun for a few hours well I’m not having fun anymore. Hit me up when a casual player can enjoy it again.

As a new player, I find this discouraging – however I can understand the need for it.

My main issue is that it appears as though the dungeons are far too punishing for mistakes, creating an extremely unpleasant experience for new players, or players that do not have the time to practice for days and days at a dungeon.

You missed that dodge? You’re dead.
You’re doing too much damage? Let me turn around and 1-shot kill you.
Got a lot of dots on a boss? Let me clear all of them for you.

My entire guild is a group of casual players and we’ve been playing MMOs for over 15 years together. We went to do a quick AC run tonight and we all decided it wasn’t worth it.

This immediately created the thought of dungeons not being exciting nor worth our time and made me not want to even attempt others. I sincerely hope this is adjusted shortly because we literally JUST came to Guild Wars 2, not having played Guild Wars 1 at all – we were loving the majority of aspects of the game and this just put a huge damper on everyone’s attitude.

The current WP situation is totally unacceptable!
I’m all for “HARD” but only if you “WANT” it.
I WANT TO PLAY A QUICK FUN GAME BECAUSE I WORK ALL DAY!

The tweeking of dungeons has went way out of control.
CM went from “needing to be balanced” to “not worth running”
You could not even run it at the level is meant for!

Seriously, how can I enjoy this game when I’m missing BIG CHUNKS of it because I cant find a party because NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT!

Right now I have been waiting 3 hours for a party. Isn’t that one of the things you WANTED TO GET RID OF IN YOUR MMO?

Who is making these messed up decisions?

PS: I’m not waiting 4 months for you tweek things. Plz UNDO what you have done untill you can figure things out!

I haven’t played all the dungeons; I think I lack 2 on my primary character that’s done everything else, but this new change will pretty much guarantee that I never play the ones I haven’t played before. pretty sure I won’t count here, but for all the reasons that everybody else has listed here, getting people to rez is near impossible. I don’t play with folks I know so its always a random group and most folks are out for themselves. I thought I read before the game was released that it was the objective of the game to get folks to play without forcing us to do x/y and z mechanically… to quote Jon Peters

Jon Peters

“I’m the anti-healer person” Peters told me. “I don’t hate that people like to play support roles, it’s just that I want that role to be fun. I don’t think there’s any teamwork – what there is is just dependency…” “I just detest dependency and the lack of teamwork it creates,” Peters continued. “It seems awfully silly to get people to play together and then not have them interact other than to say ‘are you doing your job?’, ‘Yes, I’m doing it.’”

src: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/29/how-team-fortresss-influenced-guild-wars-2s-class-system/#null

Now… granted, he was talking about player classes in general, not this particular this incident, BUT IMHO its the same BECAUSE what you’re doing is making everyone a healer at some point, because everybody is going to get killed, and if there’s no alternative rez, somebody has to be the dependency…

so there, one of your own’s thoughts on this new change (kind of).

I’m not much of a pro, and I’ll still need to give a try to your newest modifications, but I’m curious – why we need to go all the way from waypoints in the dungeons at all? They are usually quite far from destination. Why the character can’t respawn next door or next to chosen party member after some time? (I know, waiting is more boring than running, but that can be pointless as well) Time span could adjust to a number of players “alive” and there still could be an option to respawn at some WP, if party would decide to regroup in a safe distance. Just an idea.

Healing “killed” ally is usually impossible during an intensive fight in the dungeon. It’s even better for the team if such person just respawn and run all the way to continue the fight. Of course healing fallen allies (who can still react, “fight”, hide, etc.) is a great mechanic, I really like it, but if they “die”, there’s no way to help them in the middle of a fight then.