(edited by Lalangamena.3694)
Dungeons are difficult for the average player I think
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wrong,
support roles are required for most of the dungeons (except maybe COF1)
they are strong, usefull and allow “the mediocre glass cannon wannabe” to finish the dungeon.
Decent player needs no support in any dungeon.
today, by correct positioning and smart use of skills i can keep (as a support guardian) the whole party alive, and they don’t even have to dodge! just stay in one place and DPS
By correct positioning you mean stacking in melee range so he can’t hit you with his only dangerous skill in path 1?
Decent player needs no support in any dungeon.
decent players bring their own support.
the OP was speaking of the “average player”
By correct positioning you mean stacking in melee range so he can’t hit you with his only dangerous skill in path 1?
path 1 is simple, i mean path 2 and three.
by correct positioning i mean, yes stack in corner, and then I rotate my aegises and blocks
Subject Alpha is easy because he use burn condition just before his devastating AOE, burn condition converted to aegis, negating it for the whole group.
every class that is able to convert conditions to boons, like the guardian pure of voice
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice
can use it to their advantage.
again, support roles are useful and strong.
decent players bring their own support.
the OP was speaking of the “average player”
I don’t bring any support, except skills that increase overall damage.
path 1 is simple, i mean path 2 and three.
by correct positioning i mean, yes stack in corner, and then I rotate my aegises and blocksSubject Alpha is easy because he use burn condition just before his devastating AOE, burn condition converted to aegis, negating it for the whole group.
every class that is able to convert conditions to boons, like the guardian pure of voice
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice
can use it to their advantage.
again, support roles are useful and strong.
Except that burning is converted to aegis only with pure of voice and you get burning condition only when you actually don’t dodge his attack. So someone dodging his attacks will get 0 benefit from your support. Awesome.
I can remember EQ quite well. EQ is the game where the class in most demand was the cleric. The most demanding task for the cleric was to count the seconds until the healing skill needed to be pressed again, and again, until the raid boss was dead. It started all the bad design that GW2 is trying to break. One of those design flaws was the reliance on itemization over skill. However since GW2 has such a big difference in capability based on player skill, dungeons cannot be created to meet the needs of novices and experienced players at the same time. There is nothing to be learnt from a veteran player saying that the starter dungeons are facile compared to highest end raid for the most hardcore players in an MMO. I hope he isn’t the sort of person that the ANet developers are listening to.
(edited by Stooperdale.3560)
There is some reverse trolling here, the Dungeons are way over the top difficult for the average player. Those thanking the Devs for increased difficulty are trolling the average players.
There was no need to increase the difficulty of AC or any other Dungeon. If you want them difficult then add a hard mode, and for regular mode add a sixth member or reduce the difficulty by 40%.
Right now all paths, all dungeons are absurd, GW1 was nothing like this, and this game had so much potential.
I will be looking at ESO, leaving and not returning.
ANET does not have their act together. Yes you may have my money, but you won’t be getting my money from the BLTC.Support roles are weak and underpowered.
There are no control roles.
DAMAGE Warriors is about the only viable build.Anet, you lost your way.
This is trolling in and of itself.
The average player can easily do ALL the dungeons.
The terrible player can’t.
So if you’re having difficulties, you now know that you are not the “average” player.
Also, never ever was it said that explorables were meant for anyone but the most hardcore players.
The devs lied about that one, as the average players can easily rush through them. That’s why we praise them when they increase the difficulty. We’re praising them for moving a bit closer to their statement. Stating they need to be easier, or that they need to be at the same level as they are now, is trolling. So stop.
Also, that whole “add a hard mode” – That’s what explorable is.
TL;DR: Dungeons are not hard enough. Explorable modes are “hard modes”, so nerfing them is silly. If you can’t do these dungeons, find something else to do in the game, or jump on the ESO ship.
(edited by Rika.7249)
I’m probably going to insult some people here (I’m really not trying to) but I feel that dungeons are too difficult for the LAZY player. Not ‘average’ not ‘new’ just someone that doesn’t want to stop a second and figure out why the standard ‘rush in and attack’ doesn’t work so well for a particular encounter. These are not ‘WOW heroics’ in this game, there is an actual amount of thought required to progress through some of them beyond just punching your attack key.
I’m in a pretty small guild with a lot of ‘casual’ players and none of the dungeons we’ve done have been insurmountable. In my opinion, if we can do them, anyone can. It might require you to not spec glass cannon with pure damage traits/utilities/signets and might require you to dodge, however. I trust that isn’t too much for the ‘average’ player to handle.
I’m probably going to insult some people here (I’m really not trying to) but I feel that dungeons are too difficult for the LAZY player. Not ‘average’ not ‘new’ just someone that doesn’t want to stop a second and figure out why the standard ‘rush in and attack’ doesn’t work so well for a particular encounter.
This is a game, not work. Overly punishing lazy people or those who are bad at the game doesn’t mean automatically they will get better.
It just means they will move on to a different game and decreasing player counts is the beginning of the end to any MMO.
This is a game, not work. Overly punishing lazy people or those who are bad at the game doesn’t mean automatically they will get better.
It just means they will move on to a different game and decreasing player counts is the beginning of the end to any MMO.
Not necessarily, it just means the game is not for everyone like some other MMOs try to be (and fall apart for that reason). GW1 ran strong for years without compromising their integrity in how difficult the content is.
I see no reason that GW2 should be different, and it isn’t even as difficult as GW1 was.
This is a game, not work. Overly punishing lazy people or those who are bad at the game doesn’t mean automatically they will get better.
It just means they will move on to a different game and decreasing player counts is the beginning of the end to any MMO.
Not necessarily, it just means the game is not for everyone like some other MMOs try to be (and fall apart for that reason). GW1 ran strong for years without compromising their integrity in how difficult the content is.
I see no reason that GW2 should be different, and it isn’t even as difficult as GW1 was.
MMOs fail because of low player counts, without exception. All that “integrity” and “difficulty” talk is nonsense.
If the number of casual, “lazy” people vastly outnumber the number of hardcore people, then the smartest business decision is going to be to cater to the former.
MMOs fail because of low player counts, without exception. All that “integrity” and “difficulty” talk is nonsense.
If the number of casual, “lazy” people vastly outnumber the number of hardcore people, then the smartest business decision is going to be to cater to the former.
It is an interesting theory you’re proposing, that the lazy are numerous. I don’t really agree with that, and Anet has shown they can make a game run for years without taking over the entire marketshare. I get that a lot of people want this to be the next WOW or whatever, but some of us want something…different from this game.
The question is are there enough of us to keep Anet’s pockets full? I think there are.
There’s a huge difference between hard and challenging. I don’t think there hard at all, as a matter of fact there quite easy. If your a bad player at judging mechanics and figuring out the pattern of the mob/boss then that make it hard for YOU and everyone else in your group… Plain and simple.
There’s a huge difference between hard and challenging. I don’t think there hard at all, as a matter of fact there quite easy. If your a bad player at judging mechanics and figuring out the pattern of the mob/boss then that make it hard for YOU and everyone else in your group… Plain and simple.
The key part you should’ve emphasized in your statement was “…and EVERYONE ELSE IN YOUR GROUP…”.
That’s exactly the point. When you make the content harder, a team is only as good as the lowest denominator and everyone suffers.
All this would promote is more so-called “elitism” and fracturing of the playerbase.
That’s how MMOs decline and die.
I’m not sure if this has been pointed out or not, but Explorable mode dungeons ARE the hard mode. The “normal” mode as you called it is story dungeons, where you get the story and a toned down version. Explorable modes are the “hardest” content in the game, the hard modes of other games.
The average player can easily do ALL the dungeons.
The terrible player can’t.
So if you’re having difficulties, you now know that you are not the “average” player.
Though as Squally said earlier in the thread, he/she has been struggling to find PUGs that can complete dungeons. That has been my experience as well, I’ve not yet found a group that can make it through CoF2, and my success rate for Explorables overall has been around 50%, including the AC P2 that took close to two hours.
The “average” player is not equivalent to “the average player you know”. If you want to see “average”, join a dozen or so random PUGs in broadcast at various times of day. No guildmates, and you are not allowed to give advice to the group, you are seeing how good THEY are not how good YOU are.
If 50% fail or quit, and 25% struggle but finish, and 25% breeze through, you may legitimately be able to say the average player is terrible, but you can’t say the average player gets through dungeons easily. If 60% breeze through, 25% struggle but finish, and 15% fail, you may be able to argue the average player can easily do the dungeons, though I still suspect a large fraction of players, maybe over half, have never even tried a dungeon because they have heard it is too hard so that may still be too optimistic.
I’m not saying ANet needs to target the average, “terrible” player with Explorable mode, but I think there should be recognition that an average player will find it very hard. Our group didn’t find Story mode noticeably easier, either.
No guildmates, and you are not allowed to give advice to the group, you are seeing how good THEY are not how good YOU are.
Why such a restriction on yourself? Why not provide them advice to better overcome a situation?
If 50% fail or quit, and 25% struggle but finish, and 25% breeze through, you may legitimately be able to say the average player is terrible, but you can’t say the average player gets through dungeons easily. If 60% breeze through, 25% struggle but finish, and 15% fail, you may be able to argue the average player can easily do the dungeons, though I still suspect a large fraction of players, maybe over half, have never even tried a dungeon because they have heard it is too hard so that may still be too optimistic.
All these numbers… May I ask for your source?
So “lazy” and “terrible” are the words elitists are throwing now. I would outright reject “terrible” since I’ve played MMOs for over a decade and know my way around them. “Lazy” isn’t quite as bad a fit, in the sense that I don’t want to put as much work into a game as I used to, given a certain amount of reward. My tolerance for tediousness and grinding is lower now than when I played EQ or CoH or even WoW.
Gaming is still pretty much a hobby for me, but I’m no longer inclined to put second-job effort into games. I’d like to be able to play more casually and still get significant rewards. Not just handed to me, but after some moderate challenges or time-investment.
The prior incarnation of AC was just inside my window of tolerance. The reward was okay and required some effort, and it seemed somewhat balanced. Now the effort is increased but not the reward, so it seems out of balance now. And that direction of change makes me less inclined to play the game because it signals that those in control of the game lack any similarity to my perspective, even though I originally thought this game was considerably up my alley.
Since the game came out, almost every change seems to mean I need more time and trouble to do the things I was doing and wanted to continue doing. Alts I was leveling saw major skill nerfs. Dungeons I was running get harder with WP nerfs and other changes. I dislike the sense of moving backward in games; I play MMOs (and RPGs in general) largely to feel progress. It feels like this game is catering too much to the most hardcore players who feel like they’re not being challenged enough (who always have the option of hampering themselves with gear and skill changes if they want more challenge).
I’m not sure if this has been pointed out or not, but Explorable mode dungeons ARE the hard mode. The “normal” mode as you called it is story dungeons, where you get the story and a toned down version. Explorable modes are the “hardest” content in the game, the hard modes of other games.
That is ANet’s PoV with regard to dungeons. One thing, though, dungeons in other games are repeatable content. Players will not repeat content if the reward is not worth the effort. If Story Mode is normal/easy mode, it lack this. So, Story Mode is normal mode but is not worth repeating. Where does that leave players who don’t want the Hard Mode (sic) of explorables?
(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)
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