[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

change is scary.

So is not having a single way you know will always win for you.

The whole POINT in boon fumbler (for instance) is that you can’t use boon stacking as a shortcut.

Except that you still can because you can mostly facetank some hits and use active defenses for the rest. That doesn’t make it a good instability as it still punishes you for playing well. Why not make it “lose all boons on wasted dodge” or “lose all boons on hit” instead? That would punish bad performance much worse.

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Posted by: rotten.9753

rotten.9753

change is scary.

So is not having a single way you know will always win for you.

The whole POINT in boon fumbler (for instance) is that you can’t use boon stacking as a shortcut.

The whole point of that instability is not to dodge since it’s not even necessary now. Just unbind your dodge key.

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Posted by: SuinegTsol.1729

SuinegTsol.1729

i did all fractals from lvl 1 to 100, which i finished today. 100% pugging. last one i found a guild group doing it with me.
I never felt callenged exept from not fallin asleep at 30+min braidead boss fights. last mai trin was at least a bit of nice suprise at the end, but nothing challenging or at least sth you need to think about.

Overall the hardest point was to find a group. often ppl just left after one fractal(5-10min), no matter what’s lfg text. Also it was impossible to find a decent setup on any level. I tried a few times to get sth against projectiles, sth for might, sth for high dps, but ppl jsut don’t care and by time i stopped due to i was able to carry enough to get stuff done at a not too bad time, even with total non-sense compositions. From about Lvl 70 onwards i was just happy if party get full.

I was lucky to have bought 2.5 +12 infusions before this “!%&/§@!”§-“fix” of merchant, so I just needed to spent ~500g to get the rest needed to reach 150 ar.
But this still is hillarious. To be able to progress to max lvl it should be enough to do every level. If you wanna do a shortcut, pay for it, but dont need to pay for sth to progress.

This gets more an issue when it comes to rewards. First I heared anet wants fractals become the new dungeons, I looked forward to get those ~1g per fractal with scaling depending on lvl and “difficulty”.
With a good team you could do dungeons within 5 to 10 minutes, so this would be jsut fine. Now what I got for lvl 100 was…I guess a few copper, encryptions, which i need to pay for to open, some +1 infusions and normal trash. Okaaaaaaaaaay…and this for 1.5h…not included the fee i had to pay to get it done in this time(tonics,food), or cost to be able to do it (150ar)…
It would just be great if completing a fractal would be worth half the gold you could to at sw-chest-twister in the same time! It’s ok if its daily for each lvl, so ppl don’t farm swamp all day long. Why you forgot all you learned from dungeons? In the end they just got a good, but not braindead farmable rewardsystem.

Also, why do you get like NO EXPERIENCE for it? I found myself doing boring cof farm to get FRACTAL masteries up to move on…

And there are still NO NEW FRACTALS, while the old ones are still BUGGED like hell…
The only new think are instablilties. and those are like the worst I’d ever imagine! They all are created to DESTROY TEAMPLAY. You can’t stack up enemy properly. You can’t buff your party with boons. You can’t dodge. You cant crit. All those are used to be able to do thinks fast, which needs some solid composition and use of skills. With this instabilities “good teams” are in the end not way better than “bad groups of solo players”.
This hurts even more when bosses get unbelievable abount of toughness and vitality.
Last point makes higher level fractals total unplayable in sense of time spent/reward and skill/fun. Ok, when you need 30+ min to kill a boss you theoreticalls should know its mechanics. If you do so, you just chat with friends or read a magazine meanwhile you cut trough this kitten hell amount of life.
But even worst: If you do not, just dont care. with a litle bit of party support just facetank every boss. You shouldnt dodge? no problem there is no need to!
Dont get me wrong on this: auto-attacks from enemy should just do little dmg. But big attacks, with “long” animations should and must be dodgeable! No need to be onehit, but running full berserk gear you should at least not be able to fail your dodge twice in a row. On the other hand vision is still a big issue. I read sth about lowered effects to better detect bosses and their animation. ok, bosses are somewhere marked with a particle cloud at screen and animations are the random cloud formations before you get dmg.

For now, I’d still do some daily swamp+molten+required runs and hope for raids to be worth it at least to run daily .

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

change is scary.

So is not having a single way you know will always win for you.

The whole POINT in boon fumbler (for instance) is that you can’t use boon stacking as a shortcut.

The whole point of that instability is not to dodge since it’s not even necessary now. Just unbind your dodge key.

That’s 2 different things though. You can’t blame the absurdly low power on the instabilities or the instablities on the absurdly low power.

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

So for me to put it into the steps:

1) Adapt and learn.
2) Valid point
3) Probably good idea
4) Rewards are fine. People are too $$$ focused.

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

The only serious problems are the kittened up stat balances and the need for reccomended dailies in the top brackets.

Everything else really is forum eeyore.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

The only serious problems are the kittened up stat balances and the need for reccomended dailies in the top brackets.

Everything else really is forum eeyore.

rewards are lower than before with a much higher investment in time and money. How is that ok?
ascended box should be similar rates/chances as before, but its not by all indications.
crappy stat choices for level 100+ difficulty
crappy reward ratio
crappy instability selections to keep around

thats basically everything they did in this update, so if thats all thats wrong thats basically most of the fractal update.

Id also add that long term, they will see little to no fractal variability.

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Posted by: DrEckers.2039

DrEckers.2039

@Windsagio: All of these points are false:
1) Adapt and learn: Fractals 51-100 were done day 1 in meta zerks without specializations. There is no need to adapt as most high fractal players have already learned all the tells of the bosses. In relation to the specific instabilities complaints, again there is no adept and learn as these instabilities are actively punishing both skillful play and Team play. So we should adapt by not dodging? By not buffing our allies? By not standing close to supply heals or focus melee a stunned boss?

4) Rewards are fine. People are too $$$ focused: The reward problem is not just gold focused. Its a complete nerf on Ascended Weapon and Armor Drops, which might I add anet said they were balancing the raid around. Its the fact that the new shiny reward is a recoloring of the already in the game Fractal skins with LESS Effects! Its the fact that Players are now PAYING gold in the form of higher + agony infusion, paying for items that only costed fractal relics prepatch, or the extreme costs for a single ascended salvage use. All that gold to play boring Fractals instead of Gaining Gold, Ascended Items, or new Shinies in any way. Basically the only reward worth going for is the Legendary Back piece and it is behind some heavy time gates. Rewards are not fine.

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Posted by: Jerbsinator.3674

Jerbsinator.3674

Fractals are dead. I liked the changes for a few days but then the reality slowly set in for me. It’s just not worth it. Bullet sponge enemies and horrible instabilities make Fractals more tedious than fun. The cost to increase level vs rewards is not there either. Remember when you got 1+gold for doing a frac, plus a reward (chest, ring, skin) but now the gold has been turned into a junk item that is included in the chest, so now you are not even guaranteed a gold for your time AND it makes anything worthwhile dropping even less likely. There should also be a larger amount of experience awarded for completing a fotm. I could do 20 fractals taking upwards of 4 hours and only move my mastery bar up maybe 25%, or I can go farm CoF for 30 minutes and gain a mastery level….this is just unacceptable, and shows clearly that Anet doesn’t care.

I hope that these problems will be fixed, but I highly doubt it, this is Arenanet afterall and obviously they don’t care since none of them have given any input on this thread or any others that display negativity towards their game. As long as you keep funneling money into it, they don’t care if the game is being ruined.

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

@Windsagio: All of these points are false:
1) Adapt and learn: Fractals 51-100 were done day 1 in meta zerks without specializations. There is no need to adapt as most high fractal players have already learned all the tells of the bosses. In relation to the specific instabilities complaints, again there is no adept and learn as these instabilities are actively punishing both skillful play and Team play. So we should adapt by not dodging? By not buffing our allies? By not standing close to supply heals or focus melee a stunned boss?

4) Rewards are fine. People are too $$$ focused: The reward problem is not just gold focused. Its a complete nerf on Ascended Weapon and Armor Drops, which might I add anet said they were balancing the raid around. Its the fact that the new shiny reward is a recoloring of the already in the game Fractal skins with LESS Effects! Its the fact that Players are now PAYING gold in the form of higher + agony infusion, paying for items that only costed fractal relics prepatch, or the extreme costs for a single ascended salvage use. All that gold to play boring Fractals instead of Gaining Gold, Ascended Items, or new Shinies in any way. Basically the only reward worth going for is the Legendary Back piece and it is behind some heavy time gates. Rewards are not fine.

1) You go right to the same mistake: Conflating the difficulty problem (which is based on stats) with the fact that instabilities effect the way you play.

The legitimate problems are focused in 2 & 3.

4) I’m sorry, just… godkitten people have such kittened up priorities.

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Posted by: Elomite.2396

Elomite.2396

People care about the rewards because it just doesn’t make sense why silverwastes chestfarm has always given more gold than dungeons and fractals, yet dungeons were the ones to get the rewards nerfed and fractals have much lower drop rates than before. It kittenes me off that there are some really garbage players that can just afk in chestfarm rolling their faces on the keyboard making much more gold than me while I do, what? arah p4 for 1g? You couldn’t make this kitten up

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

@DrEckers: I have accepted that he either wears a permanent troll face on these forums or really just feels the opposite of the rest of us regarding everything. Seriously, who has a problem with people expecting positive rewards from putting in positive effort and completing content? Who is unable to see the lack of these positive rewards versus alternative content in the game? Who else thinks that these new instabilities are enjoyable, rewarding, or contribute to skilled play?

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

Don’t be an kitten . Opposing opinions aren’t trolling.

As to what I have a problem with it’s the culture of negativity. We don’t have to love everything, and there are legitimate problems but it’s this vicious cycle you guys get into where you tell each other everythings awful and Anet is picking on you.

Beyond that, I’ve been active around here quite a while and every change except for massive explicit buffs is treated this way. Doesn’t take much pattern recognition to see the issue.

The real problem though is that we should focus on the legitimate issues (ie the difficulty issues, and the issue with people doing focused specific picks once they’ve got their clear) and not mess up the discussion with “Waah this instability makes me play different!” or “Waah I’m not getting enough stuff”.

Do you have any idea how easy and natural it is to ignore a player that they’re not being given enough stuff? The entitled crybaby stuff only draws attention away from the real issues.

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

The point is why should anyone pay 500g (or whatever the cost is) to fully ascend and get enough AR only to get worse rewards than skill 1 spammers in zergs.

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Posted by: rotten.9753

rotten.9753

The entitled crybaby stuff only draws attention away from the real issues.

Which is what exactly? Except garbage drop rates, boring health sponges and a decrease of instabilities?

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

Don’t be an kitten . Opposing opinions aren’t trolling.

As to what I have a problem with it’s the culture of negativity. We don’t have to love everything, and there are legitimate problems but it’s this vicious cycle you guys get into where you tell each other everythings awful and Anet is picking on you.

Beyond that, I’ve been active around here quite a while and every change except for massive explicit buffs is treated this way. Doesn’t take much pattern recognition to see the issue.

The real problem though is that we should focus on the legitimate issues (ie the difficulty issues, and the issue with people doing focused specific picks once they’ve got their clear) and not mess up the discussion with “Waah this instability makes me play different!” or “Waah I’m not getting enough stuff”.

Do you have any idea how easy and natural it is to ignore a player that they’re not being given enough stuff? The entitled crybaby stuff only draws attention away from the real issues.

like I said..full on troll face lol

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Posted by: lobothegreat.3980

lobothegreat.3980

I can live with the way fractals are setup currently. What I can’t live with is the current rewards. Why were the ascended boxes drop rate nerfed when raids that will require them are going to release in a few weeks? Why do i get next to no money for completing all these fractals when i have to buy a TON of Thermocatalytic Reagents for agony resistance? I STILL can’t buy anything remotely useful with pristine/regular fractal relics. Would it kill anet to offer ascended armor/weapon boxes for pristine relics? I Feel like the rewards for doing fractals just aren’t worth it currently.

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Posted by: DrEckers.2039

DrEckers.2039

Colin Interview mentions Fractals

Well at least Our voices were heard. Copying from reddit.
I am encouraged that he says they are looking into the scaling at the higher tiers.
I am encouraged that he mentions rewards are being looked into.
I am not encouraged that he does not mention the replayability of higher level Fractals specifically levels 80,90+.
I am not encouraged that he did not say anything about looking into specific Kittened Instabilities.
I am encouraged that there are more plans for fractals.
I am not encouraged that they will be 2016 at least before we see them. Fractals need help now.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

I can live with the way fractals are setup currently. What I can’t live with is the current rewards. Why were the ascended boxes drop rate nerfed when raids that will require them are going to release in a few weeks? Why do i get next to no money for completing all these fractals when i have to buy a TON of Thermocatalytic Reagents for agony resistance? I STILL can’t buy anything remotely useful with pristine/regular fractal relics. Would it kill anet to offer ascended armor/weapon boxes for pristine relics? I Feel like the rewards for doing fractals just aren’t worth it currently.

This will never happen.

The primary purpose of ascended items is as a goldsink, then time sink to keep players logging on chasing the carrot so that they either buy more stuff off the gem store by playing the game more.

Forget about token based reward systems. RNG and goldsinks are their preferred methods of item acquisition.

Manufactured rarity to drive up gold value to drive up gem purchase with real life money.

Basically, their model is to make you decide between farming for a very, very long time, or to create a shortcut with your wallet to circumvent the RNG and gold farm.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

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Posted by: deSade.9437

deSade.9437

I just can’t wrap my head around the currently hardest content having the absolute worst rewards. I can’t. Put aside everything else for a second, personal sympathies and conspiracy theories…
… How does it make any sense?

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Posted by: DrEckers.2039

DrEckers.2039

Poorly rewarding per difficulty has been true since Fractals inception. I have mostly started taking as a constant of the universe like Death and Tp Taxes.

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Posted by: Zania.8461

Zania.8461

Personal opinion – excellent thread. A lot of good discussion with very clear and well supported points of view.

Balance – high tier fractal bosses have insane hp values pushing meta even farther towards damage. At the same time they also have extremely high toughness automatically setting meta for high condition damage. Condition damage is extremely uneven across classes making this change prioritize certain classes in certain equipment far more than the previous system did.

Rewards – simply not there. Poor scaling with difficulty. No effort into unique skins (recolor of existing with no effects). Poor monetary rewards.

Replay factor – simply not there. We were told that there will be some ways to make people do all fractals. Well there is. The achievement. After that, you will never step your foot in some of them ever again (colossus at 56/69 I am looking at you).

Communication – can we please get a dev to post something on the official forums directly? I mean interviews that mention you are reading these is great, but (I think) it would make community feel a lot better if we got some communication here too.

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Posted by: Alphard.6529

Alphard.6529

So here’s what Colin has announced in this article

In the short term, we need to take a look at iterating on some of the issues with rewards, XP, and potentially some scaling issues on the higher tiers of fractals.

I guess it’s a good start.

[KING] Alpha Cas

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Balance – high tier fractal bosses have insane hp values pushing meta even farther towards damage. At the same time they also have extremely high toughness automatically setting meta for high condition damage. Condition damage is extremely uneven across classes making this change prioritize certain classes in certain equipment far more than the previous system did.

Want to emphasize this.

The move toward high toughness mobs to make condi viable is garbage.

Condi should have been increased in output to match power builds. And in the case of engineer, ranger, and guardian, it already did.

Instead, with high toughness mobs, you are not only boosting condi specs, you are taking a dump on power specs.

And since balance among condi specs for the classes is so bad, with engineer so far above the others followed by ranger and then guardian — with all others lagging considerably behind since they don’t have anywhere close to the access to burning-- you basically switched out the dominant power specs for sinister engineers.

So you, in fact, reduced class variety in group comps even MORE.

But we all know why you increased mob toughness instead of buffing condi to match power. Because PvP, since you won’t split PvE and PvP balance, you feared pushing condi power in PvP and instead chose to screw PvE players, AGAIN.

GG with that, instead of stacking elementalists you can now replace with sinister engineers, who have the same damage output, except with no penalties since it works on mobs regardless of toughness levels.

Hopefully one day you will actually start balancing classes for instanced PvE, instead of designing for PvP and making PvE performance incidental.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

The entitled crybaby stuff only draws attention away from the real issues.

Which is what exactly? Except garbage drop rates, boring health sponges and a decrease of instabilities?

The loot stuff primarily. You think the dev has never heard “Its horrible that I dont’ get more stuff!!!” before?

The instability stuff feels similar to me, but it’s subject to interpretation.

The low output health sponges is the thing I keep referring to as a real issue and the issue we should be focusing on.

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

like I said..full on troll face lol

A convenient way to dismiss out of hand things you don’t want to hear, I admit

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Posted by: rotten.9753

rotten.9753

The loot stuff primarily. You think the dev has never heard “Its horrible that I dont’ get more stuff!!!” before?

The instability stuff feels similar to me, but it’s subject to interpretation.

The low output health sponges is the thing I keep referring to as a real issue and the issue we should be focusing on.

Have you done fractals 90+?

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Posted by: Faux.1937

Faux.1937

1) Make Toughness Slightly higher
2) Lower HP at least by 35%
3) Give bosses slightly more Sustain damage
4) Daily 51-75

Before you get made that I say more Toughness, But with less HP and some sustain damage, this will open up options for Condi builds and even some healing within the party (or better game play).

Atm the Bosses are just to boring and long, it is highly discouraging.

SAB or RIOT

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

The loot stuff primarily. You think the dev has never heard “Its horrible that I dont’ get more stuff!!!” before?

The instability stuff feels similar to me, but it’s subject to interpretation.

The low output health sponges is the thing I keep referring to as a real issue and the issue we should be focusing on.

Have you done fractals 90+?

In honesty, no I’m waiting on some friends who are collecting AR before we can get into the higher tiers.

How does that apply to the rewards crying though?

I’m in agreement about the damage sponge stuff and the low damage output issues, it becomes visible well before 90.

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Posted by: TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275

1) Make Toughness Slightly higher
2) Lower HP at least by 35%
3) Give bosses slightly more Sustain damage
4) Daily 51-75

Before you get made that I say more Toughness, But with less HP and some sustain damage, this will open up options for Condi builds and even some healing within the party (or better game play).

Atm the Bosses are just to boring and long, it is highly discouraging.

Good condition damage builds ( engineer, ranger ) are already good in fractals. For engineer because its higher damage than direct damage and for range because of the stupid ranger sword auto attack ( even if the boss moves out of your torch 5 all the time, just goes to show how sucky sword auto attack is ).

Necro>warrior confirmed ty nemesis for single handedly saving the gw2 community!!

/s

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Posted by: Ven Zehn.6573

Ven Zehn.6573

From what I’ve seen of friends/guild/and map chat:

Easier to get new players into the low lvl fractals, lower time commitment, no experience required

Long time fractal runners, will do it for completion, and never again, aside from dailies:( I’ll still run low lvls with guild to teach them the ropes.. but yea.

What saddens me though, is the excitement I had when the fractals announcement for HoT occurred, everything sounded so great. Newer, harder mechanics, things that actually challenged our playstyles, tactics, etc.

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

From what I’ve seen of friends/guild/and map chat:

Easier to get new players into the low lvl fractals, lower time commitment, no experience required

Long time fractal runners, will do it for completion, and never again, aside from dailies:( I’ll still run low lvls with guild to teach them the ropes.. but yea.

What saddens me though, is the excitement I had when the fractals announcement for HoT occurred, everything sounded so great. Newer, harder mechanics, things that actually challenged our playstyles, tactics, etc.

To beat the drum, it all comes down to the stats scaling and distribution (and there really should be reccomended dailies for 51-75 and 76-100)

~~~

The stats thing has more negative side-effects too. I’ve started running into players up into the mid 30s that have no idea how some of the mechanics work and simply don’t care because the damage is so low it doesn’t matter anyways.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

The entitled crybaby stuff only draws attention away from the real issues.

Which is what exactly? Except garbage drop rates, boring health sponges and a decrease of instabilities?

The loot stuff primarily. You think the dev has never heard “Its horrible that I dont’ get more stuff!!!” before?

The instability stuff feels similar to me, but it’s subject to interpretation.

The low output health sponges is the thing I keep referring to as a real issue and the issue we should be focusing on.

the instabilities they chose you end up doing 10 times.
Boon fumbler is not an interesting interaction, it basically means, ignore the part of the game that is boon focused. Or you can just take more damage. Its not really hard, you will win if you already know how to win, you just wont have boons, so you ll do it a little slower.

enemies gain boons on crit is similar, you cant do anything about it, you just have to fight enemies who negate CC do way more dmg and have protection. There really isnt viable play here.

a big part of the problem with these designs is they figure, of you should just change your stats, and play different (best case)
changing your stats isnt really feasible for fractals. gear is a large investment, in inventory and in gold, for 10 levels of fractals you will likely seek to avoid ever doing again:

which now focuses on rewards.
Im sorry but basing any response on your gut feeling or general ideaology will often be flawed. regardless how you feel about people asking for more rewards, you need to understand every content is competing with each other for time investment. You also need to look for the benefits of repetition.

With the current reward design, many fractals have relatively low benefit for repetion. This was ok before because fractals had better account bound rewards, and a fairly self contained reward/progression system.

This is no longer the case, profit comes from tp now, ascended seems to be less common, with fewer attempts per day. EVERY fractal item that once cost only fractals now also has a gold cost. The increase in AR is exponentially more expensive (literally, the cost for 5s-10s is literally an exponential equation) Rewards are not well balanced for different fractal types (as they said they would be) or for higher level time sinks.

Reward is a basic and importnt part of game design, its not simply about more stuff, its about properly incentivizing good play. They dont need to have insane gold rewards, but they need to have reasons for you to do something that are compelling. And with their new design of fractals reward is evenmore important, because now they need to balance fractals against each other as well as other content.

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

The boons on hit, you actually can do something about, it’s actually a perfect example.

If you bring a mesmer and that mesmer runs null field (for groups) or phantasmal disenchanters (for single target), you can substantially counteract the instability.

Granted, this makes it hard on pugs, but in the general ‘make thigns difficult and interesting’ side of things I like this a great deal, it pushes you to run a different build and skill setup.

In many ways it’s a great example of what they can do with instabilities, excepting that again it encourages organized play and is very tough on unorganized/pug play. For most of the people in this server, it’s only an advantage though — a push to change your play style and make up to optimally defeat the encounters.

I’ll grant you that the ‘sets of 10’ thing is hyper-annoying though

~~~

With rewards, I’m sticking to my earlier position. Profits arent’ as bad as people say (especially if you sell everything, infusions are sitting at 6s, and you get a LOT of them right now, and boxes were at about 20 last time I checked). It would be a huge advantage to everyone, I think, to add recommended dailies to the higher levels so people do unpopular fractals.

That goes back to to the OP.

1 is questionable

2&3 are legitimate and serious problems

4 is standard forum complaints.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Axelwarrior.9084

Axelwarrior.9084

The boons on hit, you actually can do something about, it’s actually a perfect example.

If you bring a mesmer and that mesmer runs null field (for groups) or phantasmal disenchanters (for single target), you can substantially counteract the instability.

Have you actually tested this out?
Theoratically, I’d imagine that the sheer amount of boons gained by enemies cannot possibly be contained by a single boon-ripping Mesmer.
I don’t know if there’s an internal cooldown to the buff gain, so I can’t be certain, just talking from the experience of one run.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: dutchiez.7502

dutchiez.7502

There is no amount of boonstripping that can clear the boons a full zerk team generates on mobs with this instability. I haven’t tested it, but I am fairly confident in saying that a mesmer in zerk gear who is autoattacking with sword (which has a boon strip on the 3rd skill) would not be able to strip the boons it is generating with it’s own attacks.

The only way to “counter” this instability is to wear gear which does not have precision as a stat. This will mean your damage goes down the drain, any build that relies on on crit effects is extremely hampered (read: every build) and more importantly, everyone in your team will have to acquire a new set of ascended gear (armor, weapons, trinkets) just for the 20 levels that feature this instability.

Not what I would call great design.

Nova [rT]

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

There is no amount of boonstripping that can clear the boons a full zerk team generates on mobs with this instability. I haven’t tested it, but I am fairly confident in saying that a mesmer in zerk gear who is autoattacking with sword (which has a boon strip on the 3rd skill) would not be able to strip the boons it is generating with it’s own attacks.

The only way to “counter” this instability is to wear gear which does not have precision as a stat. This will mean your damage goes down the drain, any build that relies on on crit effects is extremely hampered (read: every build) and more importantly, everyone in your team will have to acquire a new set of ascended gear (armor, weapons, trinkets) just for the 20 levels that feature this instability.

Not what I would call great design.

But you haven’t tried it, and don’t quite get the build.

This is something we (well one of the others) figured out to try in the first 5 minutes of us doing the new fractals (doing the 50 right after HOT released). The Mesmer takes a fairly substantial dps drop because you’re not using damage phantasms, but the net party gain is enormous.

Of course the cleansing isn’t perfect, but it avoids the normal zerk party fury/retal/25 might/10 stability/protection/occasional aegis issue that you get in the 41-50 bracket otherwise.

~~~

Honestly this goes directly to my point. People never even tried to be creative in dealing with the instability, but instead tried to haedbutt it to death and then complain about it.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

There is no amount of boonstripping that can clear the boons a full zerk team generates on mobs with this instability. I haven’t tested it, but I am fairly confident in saying that a mesmer in zerk gear who is autoattacking with sword (which has a boon strip on the 3rd skill) would not be able to strip the boons it is generating with it’s own attacks.

The only way to “counter” this instability is to wear gear which does not have precision as a stat. This will mean your damage goes down the drain, any build that relies on on crit effects is extremely hampered (read: every build) and more importantly, everyone in your team will have to acquire a new set of ascended gear (armor, weapons, trinkets) just for the 20 levels that feature this instability.

Not what I would call great design.

But you haven’t tried it, and don’t quite get the build.

This is something we (well one of the others) figured out to try in the first 5 minutes of us doing the new fractals (doing the 50 right after HOT released). The Mesmer takes a fairly substantial dps drop because you’re not using damage phantasms, but the net party gain is enormous.

Of course the cleansing isn’t perfect, but it avoids the normal zerk party fury/retal/25 might/10 stability/protection/occasional aegis issue that you get in the 41-50 bracket otherwise.

~~~

Honestly this goes directly to my point. People never even tried to be creative in dealing with the instability, but instead tried to haedbutt it to death and then complain about it.

This is where leaderboards and good rewards might spur creative solutions. Incentives matter.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

This is where leaderboards and good rewards might spur creative solutions. Incentives matter.

I’d agree with that. Where we might disagree is that I believe the renewed promise that we’d get them (again).

To be fair, I’d understand folks being cynical on that front ><

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: DrEckers.2039

DrEckers.2039

You clearly have not run higher than 39 Windsagio. First, the boon on crit causes at least 5 different boons per second. There is no internal cool down on individual boons causing the bosses to gain up to 25 boons a second during bursts such as during a defiance strip. The fastest a mesmer can remove is 1 boon per 2.5 seconds. There is no realistic way for a mesmer to counter the boon production. The very first thing my guild did after testing mesmer is conclude it was a waste of space due to the lack or dps and inability to actually counter anything and swapped back to a guard. There is no way for a party of mesmers to realistically counter the boon production. The only way to work around it is to either roll a completely new stats on your armor (which destroys your runes btw) or muscle through it. Stop spamming your false information on these forums.

(edited by DrEckers.2039)

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

You clearly have not run higher than 39 Windsagio. First, the boon on crit causes at least 5 different boons per second. There is no internal cool down on individual boons causing the bosses to gain up to 25 boons a second during bursts such as during a defiance strip. The fastest a mesmer can remove is 1 boon per 2.5 seconds. There is no realistic way for a mesmer to counter the boon production. The very first thing my guild did after testing mesmer is conclude it was a waste of space due to the lack or dps and inability to actually counter anything and swapped back to a guard. There is no way for a party of mesmers to realistically counter the boon production. The only way to work around it is to either roll a completely new stats on your armor (which destroys your runes btw) or muscle through it. Stop spamming your false information on these forums.

I think there’s a skill you dont’ even know about. Here’s a hint:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanter

Each bounce removes 2 stacks, and in a single-target environment (which is the place it’s really important), it’ll usually hit your target twice.

With mimic>disenchanter>disenchanter>signet of ether>disenchanter, you can get three up almost immediately, and they don’t die (at least not until the cannon phase) due to their positioning and the minion change.

Moreover, you’re conflating boons with stacks in an essential misunderstanding of how boon-stripping works. One strip could (depending on what it hits) remove 25 levels of might.

I asked Seth about it, and he says on the 50 Mai he was able to easily hold her to an average of 2-3 boons for the entirety of the fight.

~~~

Honestly, I don’t want to be mean, but this is both hilarious and emblematic of the problem. There are mesmer skills that apparently progression minded players don’t even know exist and never even considered trying.

Make sure you know what you’re talking about before you try to blow someone up.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Elomite.2396

Elomite.2396

who actually plays mesmer

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: deSade.9437

deSade.9437

No, null field and mesmer autoattack isn’t enough. I rolled chrono instead of druid in some fractals because we lacked reflects and boon/condi manipulation, precisely in an attempt to counter the instabilities.
There’s nothing that will stop enemies from gaining a bazillion of boons; you can only do your best not to get hit in key moments, remove the most dangerous ones (prot, swifness on the shaman before he goes into bubble) and keep might stacks low, possibly below 20-25.
You can THEORETICALLY counter the instability, but in practice? eh. The best thing I’ve found is to spam phantasmal defenders, try not to dodge unless necessary and spam distortion so people dont’ get hit.
But then again, see where the problem is. You dodge, you lose boons; you get hit, you lose boons; you kitten, you lose boons. “I shouldn’t dodge, lemme equip my nomads gear” Wow, nice design, really.
Now, if people could stop talking out of their kitten…
“I haven’t done fotm, BUT…” But my kitten . Shut the hell up until you climbed up to at least 80-90, kitten.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Yasi.9065

Yasi.9065

Disenchanter and nullfield are enough.

Feedback, disenchanter/defender/pain mantra, nullfield, timewarp.

Havent touched chronomancer yet, but those 4 skills get you through 70s easily.

(edited by Yasi.9065)

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

Disenchanter and nullfield are enough.

Feedback, disenchanter, nullfield, timewarp.

Havent touched chronomancer yet, but those 4 skills get you through 40s easily.

Nullfield, in this tactic, is only really good for trash. More disenchanters is the way to go for single-target.

AS A NOTE This doesn’t at all apply to the difficulty issue. The fact that people CAN headbutt the instabiilty to death and don’t have to try to form a strategy is probably the most striking indictment of the current difficulty curve there can be.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Mesmer autoattack alone may not purge boons, but paired with phantasmal disenchanter and phantasmal haste it most certainly can.

I think most mesmers haven’t tried out the buffed iDisenchanter, no class can compete with the mesmer’s boon removal if they take that.

Unfortunately it also comes at the cost of easy permanent alacrity uptime that having 3 iavengers would provide alongside a well or two with the AWtEW trait.

I personally think that mobs SHOULD have ample methods of boon removal and CC to disrupt stacking and the easy power spike boon stacking provides (capping might and maintaining it is way too easy for the enormous benefit it provides, same for perma fury uptime).

But I think that same principle should apply to mobs, and not be like the dredge where boon removal is pointless thanks to the rate of application.

That’s why I like the ascalonian fractal, because as a mesmer I feel rewarded for bringing utilities like null field which I would never consider using otherwise, and the results of that choice show in the greatly reduced damage my party takes. Same applies to necro with well of corruption.


I’m also NOT in favor of returning to the incredibly inflated damage spikes of some bosses ala old fractal 50.

Mossman/Archdiviner/dredge at Fractal 50 did such obscene damage with mere autoattacks. Some of those tells were covered in visual clutter since these were small humanoids, so things like Mai Trin’s twirl were hard to even see in time with an elementalist or guardian in the party, especially with male norns and charrs instead of the 5 tiny female human party.

It’s totally OK when spoonfed aegis by a CD guardian or playing a kitten class like warrior who can eat and autoattack or two without being one shotted, but they are NOT fun as a 12k HP berzerker elementalist who chooses to not run staff, and the same goes for a thief not running sword/pistol for evade spam.

Dredge have little tells on their autoattacks and instant, long kitten dazes that would take off 2/3 of a berk elementalist’s HP, that was just silly when that and cultists made life as an elementalist miserable while warriors and guardians and now revenants don’t mind because they have way more spike absorption.

So, NO, I’m not in favor of increasing difficulty by tuning up damage. That’s just dumb.

Make difficulty by making the MECHANICS more demanding. The game should not be just about dodging, it should be about performing tasks in a fight, make it like Priestess of Dwayna in P4 where the idea was to have multiple tasks performed.

Make the failure to execute interesting mechanics in the fight wipe you, like that lightning strike on the raids, etc.

Not some ridiculous boss whose autoattacks spike for ridiculous amount of damage, favoring heavily the heavy armor/high HP classes while pigeonholing classes like elementalist into staff.

More damage & HP= Difficulty is BAD, LAZY DESIGN.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

There is no amount of boonstripping that can clear the boons a full zerk team generates on mobs with this instability. I haven’t tested it, but I am fairly confident in saying that a mesmer in zerk gear who is autoattacking with sword (which has a boon strip on the 3rd skill) would not be able to strip the boons it is generating with it’s own attacks.

The only way to “counter” this instability is to wear gear which does not have precision as a stat. This will mean your damage goes down the drain, any build that relies on on crit effects is extremely hampered (read: every build) and more importantly, everyone in your team will have to acquire a new set of ascended gear (armor, weapons, trinkets) just for the 20 levels that feature this instability.

Not what I would call great design.

But you haven’t tried it, and don’t quite get the build.

This is something we (well one of the others) figured out to try in the first 5 minutes of us doing the new fractals (doing the 50 right after HOT released). The Mesmer takes a fairly substantial dps drop because you’re not using damage phantasms, but the net party gain is enormous.

Of course the cleansing isn’t perfect, but it avoids the normal zerk party fury/retal/25 might/10 stability/protection/occasional aegis issue that you get in the 41-50 bracket otherwise.

~~~

Honestly this goes directly to my point. People never even tried to be creative in dealing with the instability, but instead tried to haedbutt it to death and then complain about it.

I have tried it, its pointless, null field is pulsing, mind stab is 1/3 strikes and arcane theivery has a cool down.

There is nothing you can do if even two people in your party have crit damage.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: Windsagio.1340

Windsagio.1340

There is no amount of boonstripping that can clear the boons a full zerk team generates on mobs with this instability. I haven’t tested it, but I am fairly confident in saying that a mesmer in zerk gear who is autoattacking with sword (which has a boon strip on the 3rd skill) would not be able to strip the boons it is generating with it’s own attacks.

The only way to “counter” this instability is to wear gear which does not have precision as a stat. This will mean your damage goes down the drain, any build that relies on on crit effects is extremely hampered (read: every build) and more importantly, everyone in your team will have to acquire a new set of ascended gear (armor, weapons, trinkets) just for the 20 levels that feature this instability.

Not what I would call great design.

But you haven’t tried it, and don’t quite get the build.

This is something we (well one of the others) figured out to try in the first 5 minutes of us doing the new fractals (doing the 50 right after HOT released). The Mesmer takes a fairly substantial dps drop because you’re not using damage phantasms, but the net party gain is enormous.

Of course the cleansing isn’t perfect, but it avoids the normal zerk party fury/retal/25 might/10 stability/protection/occasional aegis issue that you get in the 41-50 bracket otherwise.

~~~

Honestly this goes directly to my point. People never even tried to be creative in dealing with the instability, but instead tried to haedbutt it to death and then complain about it.

I have tried it, its pointless, null field is pulsing, mind stab is 1/3 strikes and arcane theivery has a cool down.

There is nothing you can do if even two people in your party have crit damage.

You’re gonna feel silly when you read lower down.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: rotten.9753

rotten.9753

But you haven’t tried it, and don’t quite get the build.

This is something we (well one of the others) figured out to try in the first 5 minutes of us doing the new fractals (doing the 50 right after HOT released). The Mesmer takes a fairly substantial dps drop because you’re not using damage phantasms, but the net party gain is enormous.

Of course the cleansing isn’t perfect, but it avoids the normal zerk party fury/retal/25 might/10 stability/protection/occasional aegis issue that you get in the 41-50 bracket otherwise.

~~~

Honestly this goes directly to my point. People never even tried to be creative in dealing with the instability, but instead tried to haedbutt it to death and then complain about it.

You also haven’t tried that.

[Feedback/Discussion] Fractals of the Mists

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Posted by: rotten.9753

rotten.9753

In honesty, no I’m waiting on some friends who are collecting AR before we can get into the higher tiers.

How does that apply to the rewards crying though?

I’m in agreement about the damage sponge stuff and the low damage output issues, it becomes visible well before 90.

So basically you comment here based on rumours and act as an expert telling people to adapt.