Guild Wars 2

Draco.9480:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/237256/gw287.jpg
If you’re gonna post made up dps numbers in screenshots then get logs or vids to prove it.
More Alacrity wouldn’t of made enough difference to make it seem any less kitten and the player actually spent some time on Necro before, this run was aimed at him specifically trying Nec in all wings and resulted in Nec being useless literally everywhere.

Stop comparing benchmarks and spreadsheets to reality. Necro can do more than ele in certain bosses. Stop with the delusional elitism. Or do ya need Nemesis to debunk zis kitten?

Ya’ll never do a dps of benchmark golem in a raid, Never.

Have you seen Mursaat Overseer?

Draco.9480:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/237256/gw287.jpg
If you’re gonna post made up dps numbers in screenshots then get logs or vids to prove it.
More Alacrity wouldn’t of made enough difference to make it seem any less kitten and the player actually spent some time on Necro before, this run was aimed at him specifically trying Nec in all wings and resulted in Nec being useless literally everywhere.

Stop comparing benchmarks and spreadsheets to reality. Necro can do more than ele in certain bosses. Stop with the delusional elitism. Or do ya need Nemesis to debunk zis kitten?

Ya’ll never do a dps of benchmark golem in a raid, Never.

According to Nemesis, you can have 100% DPS-uptime without Ice Bows, so this post is useless.

fishball.7204:

Wat bosses do ele lose in dps to necro?

Which bosses have multiple targets and/or adds that need to be killed? Also, do you mean “on average”, or “with specific players”?

Because I one hundred and ten percent promise you that I would lose trying to ele DPS vs necro DPS on any boss at all.

Ultimately, what you really want to do is argue about facts, not feelings, and definitely not your tiny slice of the large collection of raiders.

For which you really, really want to get a site like https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ collating performance details from many raiders, and comparing them, so you have statistically significant sample sizes available.

fishball.7204:

Wat bosses do ele lose in dps to necro?

the few boses that adds mater mursaat overseen and deimos cm

Ele still wins for my group on Mursaat since we do the qT strat and let 3 come to us and just protect. There isn’t really any use of epi there except maybe 1 pull of the ads which doesn’t make up for the DPS loss on the boss itself.

Deimos CM is the one place where I really liked using necro simply for epi on pride but in normal deimos I’ve tried necro but it didn’t really feel useful. Condi rangers handled the entangles (or druid) on prides easily.

I duno, I like my necro and I want to play it but it just feels so bad compared to everything else (except Rev).

FYI, I play everything even condi ranger, power engi, power DH etc so I’m not an ele main talking down necros. I actually take my necro into raid clears with a good group and try to make it viable but it just seems so bad.

on mursaat you can epi 2-3 times. first from the statue that comes into your zerg before it dies, then from one of 3 soldiers and then again from the statue near zerg before it dies.
on deimos you have saul and prides to epi from, kitten dmg.
sabetha is awesome too, lots of adds.
sloth is okayish but wont beat a good ele, big hitbox.
KC you wont beat ele ever.
matthias you will beat ele and if you dont die you can beat condi mes with a good roll.
xera has tons of adds, you can beat ele.
vg and gorse you probably wont beat ele, first has no toughness and second has big hitbox.
cairn depends if some of you get red aoe but i’d say you can beat ele
samarog you can compete because it moves but its a big hitbox so im not sure.

this list obviously assumes perfect rotation with epis whenever applicable. if you take ice bow you will beat almost all bosses but that only proves ele is still great because it contributes to team dps a lot.

(that being said i know condi ranger stacking is better, people pls shut up already)

The challenge with aggregate stats like wowlogs for GW2 is the difference between no buffs and realistic buffs. In WoW, your unbuffed vs raid buffs get you a spread of what, 30-40% at best? Here that number could get blown up as high as 400% or more. I don’t even know where I would start to compare one pull to another to keep it fair.

And I do track damage taken. Everything I can extract out of the client, including your skills used and weapon swaps and how many times you dodged and how many attacks you dodged, gets lumped into those logs.

deltaconnected.4058:

The challenge with aggregate stats like wowlogs for GW2 is the difference between no buffs and realistic buffs. In WoW, your unbuffed vs raid buffs get you a spread of what, 30-40% at best? Here that number could get blown up as high as 400% or more. I don’t even know where I would start to compare one pull to another to keep it fair.

If it is really that big a spread, in the real world, I’d hope that the GW2 developers might be convinced to tune things a bit differently…

I mean, honestly, my hope about something akin to the WoW aggregate stats is up and up to see it highlight the actual performance issues, rather than the guesstimated ones that we have out here in the community.

Consider: is reaper really as bad in raids as the theorycrafting says? I couldn’t say, because even if I was raiding all the time, in pugs, I see a tiny fraction of their performances. Get me a broad base of data, and maybe we can identify if it is, and push for it to be fixed. (etc, etc, for whatever class you like or loath, of course.)

deltaconnected.4058:

And I do track damage taken. Everything I can extract out of the client, including your skills used and weapon swaps and how many times you dodged and how many attacks you dodged, gets lumped into those logs.

You do. In my head, but not in what I said, was the caveat “players who use DPS meters tend to only look at the damage output numbers, and sometimes-but-not-often the buffs”. Which is a people problem, and so can’t be solved with technology, even when the meters provide that.

(and thank you for it, by the way. I find it useful in optimizing my own play by working out when I am avoiding the wrong attacks, etc.)

Coconut.7082:

Draco.9480:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/237256/gw287.jpg
If you’re gonna post made up dps numbers in screenshots then get logs or vids to prove it.
More Alacrity wouldn’t of made enough difference to make it seem any less kitten and the player actually spent some time on Necro before, this run was aimed at him specifically trying Nec in all wings and resulted in Nec being useless literally everywhere.

Stop comparing benchmarks and spreadsheets to reality. Necro can do more than ele in certain bosses. Stop with the delusional elitism. Or do ya need Nemesis to debunk zis kitten?

Ya’ll never do a dps of benchmark golem in a raid, Never.

According to Nemesis, you can have 100% DPS-uptime without Ice Bows, so this post is useless.

no it was according to nike. nemesis just quoted what the elitists said in his videos.
ya took him out of context.

Loop.8106:

Draco.9480:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/237256/gw287.jpg
If you’re gonna post made up dps numbers in screenshots then get logs or vids to prove it.
More Alacrity wouldn’t of made enough difference to make it seem any less kitten and the player actually spent some time on Necro before, this run was aimed at him specifically trying Nec in all wings and resulted in Nec being useless literally everywhere.

Stop comparing benchmarks and spreadsheets to reality. Necro can do more than ele in certain bosses. Stop with the delusional elitism. Or do ya need Nemesis to debunk zis kitten?

Ya’ll never do a dps of benchmark golem in a raid, Never.

Have you seen Mursaat Overseer?

have ya seen funny?

Draco.9480:

Coconut.7082:

Draco.9480:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/237256/gw287.jpg
If you’re gonna post made up dps numbers in screenshots then get logs or vids to prove it.
More Alacrity wouldn’t of made enough difference to make it seem any less kitten and the player actually spent some time on Necro before, this run was aimed at him specifically trying Nec in all wings and resulted in Nec being useless literally everywhere.

Stop comparing benchmarks and spreadsheets to reality. Necro can do more than ele in certain bosses. Stop with the delusional elitism. Or do ya need Nemesis to debunk zis kitten?

Ya’ll never do a dps of benchmark golem in a raid, Never.

According to Nemesis, you can have 100% DPS-uptime without Ice Bows, so this post is useless.

no it was according to nike. nemesis just quoted what the elitists said in his videos.
ya took him out of context.

actually pre icebow nerf you had 100 dps uptime but thats only because the icebow used to oneshot bosses….

Why is Icebow so good on Nerco? Between all of this debating, I still have no idea why its good to pick it up on Necro. Is it from the IB 3 skill and its chill effects?

pspshadowman.2701:

Why is Icebow so good on Nerco? Between all of this debating, I still have no idea why its good to pick it up on Necro. Is it from the IB 3 skill and its chill effects?

i think all icebow 3 4 and 5 have chill dont have an icebow right know so i cant tell for sure

3 is chill, 5 is chill and 4 is bleeds.

zealex.9410:

Draco.9480:

Coconut.7082:

Draco.9480:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/237256/gw287.jpg
If you’re gonna post made up dps numbers in screenshots then get logs or vids to prove it.
More Alacrity wouldn’t of made enough difference to make it seem any less kitten and the player actually spent some time on Necro before, this run was aimed at him specifically trying Nec in all wings and resulted in Nec being useless literally everywhere.

Stop comparing benchmarks and spreadsheets to reality. Necro can do more than ele in certain bosses. Stop with the delusional elitism. Or do ya need Nemesis to debunk zis kitten?

Ya’ll never do a dps of benchmark golem in a raid, Never.

According to Nemesis, you can have 100% DPS-uptime without Ice Bows, so this post is useless.

no it was according to nike. nemesis just quoted what the elitists said in his videos.
ya took him out of context.

actually pre icebow nerf you had 100 dps uptime but thats only because the icebow used to oneshot bosses….

in crap content like dungeon with 5 stacks of stability on bosses that will appear only after cc. so the freeze the boss for 5 seconds and it melts, especially big hitbox.
but now nerfed, different cc bar. bosses actually fight and mlg but still nice for necros especially for big hit box for the extra bleeds!

Sublimatio.6981:

on mursaat you can epi 2-3 times. first from the statue that comes into your zerg before it dies, then from one of 3 soldiers and then again from the statue near zerg before it dies.
on deimos you have saul and prides to epi from, kitten dmg.
sabetha is awesome too, lots of adds.
sloth is okayish but wont beat a good ele, big hitbox.
KC you wont beat ele ever.
matthias you will beat ele and if you dont die you can beat condi mes with a good roll.
xera has tons of adds, you can beat ele.
vg and gorse you probably wont beat ele, first has no toughness and second has big hitbox.
cairn depends if some of you get red aoe but i’d say you can beat ele
samarog you can compete because it moves but its a big hitbox so im not sure.

this list obviously assumes perfect rotation with epis whenever applicable. if you take ice bow you will beat almost all bosses but that only proves ele is still great because it contributes to team dps a lot.

(that being said i know condi ranger stacking is better, people pls shut up already)

Do you speak about cleave dmg or do you assume that you got a second necro in the group?

Also why would samarog move if you got perfect rotations ect.?

im speaking about single necro. well its true, samarog doesn’t really move if the tank is doing a good job.

I think subli confused “target” with “cleave” on bsdm,

whats the difference between target and cleave?

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Consider: is reaper really as bad in raids as the theorycrafting says? I couldn’t say, because even if I was raiding all the time, in pugs, I see a tiny fraction of their performances. Get me a broad base of data, and maybe we can identify if it is, and push for it to be fixed. (etc, etc, for whatever class you like or loath, of course.)

You have it backwards. On paper reaper is actually competitive in terms of DPS. In practice the lack of field priority control causes reaper to lose more dps in fight than any other class.

Crinn.7864:

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Consider: is reaper really as bad in raids as the theorycrafting says? I couldn’t say, because even if I was raiding all the time, in pugs, I see a tiny fraction of their performances. Get me a broad base of data, and maybe we can identify if it is, and push for it to be fixed. (etc, etc, for whatever class you like or loath, of course.)

You have it backwards. On paper reaper is actually competitive in terms of DPS. In practice the lack of field priority control causes reaper to lose more dps in fight than any other class.

reaper is also a mess when it comes to purity of purpose.

zealex.9410:

reaper is also a mess when it comes to purity of purpose.

Define purity of purpose in the context of necromancer.

Crinn.7864:

zealex.9410:

reaper is also a mess when it comes to purity of purpose.

Define purity of purpose in the context of necromancer.

Not the entirety of necromancer just the reaper spec, necro is the debuffing class or its design suggest that but with the creep to vulnerability it lost some of its value. Plus reaper was presended as the power elite spec or at least semed like that and thats what alot of ppl ask them to treat it as when they buff it. But so far we get wierd memeslike the buff to deathly chill

zoomborg.9462:

I think subli confused “target” with “cleave” on bsdm,

i think not i never play with cleave option, its useless

Tested necro pretty extensively across bosses last week using Arc and BGDM. I’d say only matthias warranted necro as the strong pick and every other boss condi ranger (or mesmer), ele, condi warrior were all better. Even on matthias I’d hit 17k dps and the condi mesmer can hit 19k.

That is not to say necro is trash, it’s actually pretty good but I don’t really need the utility of epi in my group so there is no reason to sacrifice any sort of dps for it.

Still you’d be better off with a necro at Matthias than an Ele for most cases and probably Cairn and deimos too. I was mostly comparing it to other DPS roles like Condi ranger/Condi warrior etc.

Didn’t really test the ice bow thing that requires a lot more testing especially since the Ele can take feel the burn instead of ice bow for personal DPS.

if condi warrior bested you you must’ve played really bad or had some strange buff disposition

Sublimatio.6981:

if condi warrior bested you you must’ve played really bad or had some strange buff disposition

heh?

Condi DPS warrior, not condi PS war. L2read maybe.

point still stands lol, condi war has almost same dps as necro on golem, while necro in real raid scenario has more dps with epidemic/condi transfer.

Btw. if ele takes feel the burn it’s a partywide dps loss, because ice bow used by necro equals much more damage than sole feel the burn will ever do

Shrug. You can call me bad all you want but I tested it in a group of similar skilled players and necro was underperforming every fight except matthias compared to other more optimal DPS roles.

Epi is useless if your comp isn’t going to spread condi to mobs, so it’s only useful at like Deimos for me (which I mentioned) and Condi transfer is only useful at Matthias which I also mentioned. Even on Deimos, only the 25% splits mattered since we don’t bother condi bombing the prides, just 1 immob/entangle and let it be. I get like 1 epi in off the Saul because they die so fast with our group DPS.

Also I was talking about taking FtB over ice bow without a necro in the first place. ie. is it better to have 2 eles take FtB over 1 ele ice bow and 1 necro which requires extensive testing that I’m not gonna do.

it’s better to have 1 engi and 1 condi ranger instead of eles/necros if you want optimal dps (except some ele friendly bosses ofc). as for 2x ele or 1xele 1x necro – not sure but seems pretty competitive, ele brings 1k dps for the lighting strike from air overload, while necro will increase few k of dps with ice bow and another few k with solid epi (and is less likely to go down)

btw. condis are easily spread to mobs like on xera, gorse, sabetha.

The original point of giving icebows to necros still stands though as the amount of bleeds they apply with it is ludicrous. Though I think we’re all seeing the trees and not the forest after reading some of the replies.

Will a condi necro picking up an icebow be a waste of the icebow? Nope not at all.

Is condi necro so bad that literally any other class will see better results unless you’re the top 5% of the playerbase? Nope it’s decent and Sublimatio has nicely summed up the good bosses for it.

At the end of the day a necro isn’t going to cause a raid wipe or you to do too little dps except on a few bosses. Now if you’re chasing a record run that’s a different story…

change the 3rd trait in curses instead blinding=chill with 3s icd, make poison do 33% more damage.
in blood magic replace 1 useless trait with 33% more damage in bleeding.
make all classes to use their finishers on their combo fields over others regardless who put combo field first.
empower scepter 2 3 and dagger 5 the amount of bleeds, torment.
give the aa of scepter first and 2nd strike 2% life force gain each.

many people argue “but ele will lose his dps” which is an obvious sign of not knowing how ice bow works. it’s an external source of damage, not internal. it’s a tool that changes the dmg outcome depending on traits of bearer. if necro holds the ice bow and ele continues his rotation without it, the ice bow deals more damage and therefore was used to 100% capacity. if ele used the ice bow, it wouldn’t expell this much damage and the ice bow’s potential wouldn’t be executed fully. this is the exact same thing that was happening in the dungeon meta in 2013-2014 when thieves and mesmers were supposed to pick up lighting hammers and ice bows to increase the party dps output. i hope this post explains more how it works

Sublimatio.6981:

it’s better to have 1 engi and 1 condi ranger instead of eles/necros if you want optimal dps (except some ele friendly bosses ofc).

I’m pretty sure engi/necro is better than ele/necro. Because of pinpoint, and because engis don’t have Texas sized combo fields.

lol good point but pairing necro with engi isn’t optimal if you can pair engi with ranger

I read trough all this post and wanted to add some stuff aswell. Since we tested necro a little aswell on some bosses.

1. There is not a single boss where necro is optimal
2. The only boss where we had good dps numbers was on sabetha, where the epi bounces would fit perfectly into your rotation + you could easly position yourself to get chill fields about 80% of the time.
3. I tested Ice Bow on necro a lot aswell and it was only higher group dps when the Elementalist played normal staff. On Scepter Warhorn it was a group dps loss. People have to consider that even tho, Necro gets a lot dps out of ice bow, ele also gets a kitten ton of dps since he has so many modifiers.
4. Unlike what kitten ymoa said in the first page of this post, 67% alacrity compared to 94% is pretty significant. Especially on Necro, since alacrity decides if you get a second Gravedigger off on a combo field or not.

Babyrage incoming.

Thank you for sharing that information OneUp, I really appreciate it as my static is not receptive towards testing necro, but I am very interested in it.

How bad was the necro dps compared to other dps classes? Could it be attributed to the combo field issues? The actual difficulty of the rotation ? Or something else?

did you test small hitbox whether its better to use feel the burn or share ib?
+ props for fact-checking something that seemed like a no-brainer
also what are the differences in numbers?

Well that’s the discussion done, we’ve been one upped.

I’ll go back to punland now.

@Subli I must say we didn’t test on every single boss. The only small hitbox boss we tested it on was sabetha (and matthias if you count him as small hit box). When we tested it on sabetha, we didn’t test with icebow since we used 2 rangers which went up to cannons and 2 necros who where the main dps on the boss. The epi bounces would time perfectly into your scepter auto attack rotation so you could easly get a lot of dps.
We tested Icebow on Gorseval mainly since it’s the best boss to test staff & scepter for ele. I don’t remember the exact numbers but our conclusion was on scepter warhorn you kinda fill your air auto attacks with ice bow while on staff your fire auto attacks are still strong enough to make the loss of ice bow not that significant.

That said, if a necro is played well, he can still get significant dps numbers. As posted on my youtube video aswell, I got 28k dps (bgdm number) on a sabetha pug with no engi in the group. Even tho I had no other necro to bounce epis, I could bounce some conditions from the thugs and arsonist when they were close to the group and would get cleaved by some conditions. I also had a good run on vale guardian where I did the same but just with seekers.

Edit. afaik on small hitbox like xera and sabetha, Feel the Burn is a dps increase over Ice Bow on staff ele. I don’t know about scepter warhorn

yes but how about comparing feel the burn to sharing ice bow with necro on small hitbox (since ele will lose a lot of hits while necro still makes 50+ bleeds)?

as for Sabetha, I think bouncing with the other necro in this encounter is kinda wasteful. This is a good encounter for solo epis (same with sloth, gorse and xera). Bouncing makes 1 necro waste epi on adds. Sometimes its imperative but I think it’s always better to snipe recently pulled adds on your own. Epi has a cap of 25 conditions so just a second of crangers bombardment and you have 25 bleeds and burns to transfer. Maybe some you can bounce if mob is far away and you/mes wont pull, but it’s better to use main zerg as a source of condis, not bouncing.